Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Stefano]

Dear all,
on this point I wanted to link a new discussion that has been started about
the 'licensing' issues of Wikidata elements.

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Importing_datasets_under_incompatible_licenses

Ciao,
Stefano

Il giorno lun 7 mag 2018 alle ore 10:50 Simon Poole  ha
scritto:

>
>
> Am 05.05.2018 um 15:58 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> > Arguing about licenses and their compatibility does not really help in
> > this context since having formally compatible license (or the related
> > argument that Wikidata is CC0 and therefore by definition the license
> > is a non-issue) would not help.  We have just seen in
> 
> As has been pointed out many many many times an entity providing content
> on CC0 terms does not make any representations that there are no third
> party rights in the material, just that the entity in question does not
> claim any rights (see the text
> https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode).
>
> If the content was originally created by the entity in its entirety,CC0
> is a useful licence, otherwise .
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Simon Poole]

Am 05.05.2018 um 14:51 schrieb Maurizio Napolitano:
>> Unfortunately, Wikipedia is licensed under CC-BY-SA what is incompatible
> with ODBL.
>
> Finally someone who remembers it
>
> IMHO:
> The quick&dirty solution can be to ask the producer the permission to add
> the data inserted from wikipedia to openstreetmap with a flag.
>
> On the same time I ask my self how significant is this contribution inside
> the entire openstreetmap database.
>
> In a long long way I think that we have to ask to Open Knowledge
> International (the producer of the ODbL) and Creative Commons to find a
> right way to find a solution to this problem.
> Maybe an upgrade of the ODbL can solve some.
>
> What do you think about a discussion between WMF, OSMF, OKFN and CC to
> solve the problem is a trasparent way for the community?

CC BY and CC BY-SA are not compatible with the ODbL because the ODbL is
a fairly lenient licence that allows ways of re-using content that
neither CC BY or CC BY-SA support.

To be compatible with either of the CC licences we would have to
-downgrade- the ODbL and not allow numerous common use cases (for
example publishing maps derived from OSM on any terms the map creator
wants to with essentially just an attribution requirement). I'm sorry,
but that route is a non-starter.

And given that the relevant restrictions in the CC licences were
reaffirmed  (and extended) with the 4.0 versions, it seems rather
unlikely that CC will do anything about it from their side or that their
stakeholders would support such change. In any case it would require a
licence change by the WMF to any such compatible licence too, which
again is unlikely to happen.

Not to mention that regardless of licence fiddling, there is still the
question of the provenance of the contents in WP and third party rights
that always makes use in OSM questionable.

In summary: I doubt that anybody is willing to embark on this specific
fool's errand.

Simon
>
> my2cents
>




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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Simon Poole]

Am 05.05.2018 um 15:58 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> Arguing about licenses and their compatibility does not really help in 
> this context since having formally compatible license (or the related 
> argument that Wikidata is CC0 and therefore by definition the license 
> is a non-issue) would not help.  We have just seen in

As has been pointed out many many many times an entity providing content
on CC0 terms does not make any representations that there are no third
party rights in the material, just that the entity in question does not
claim any rights (see the text 
https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode).

If the content was originally created by the entity in its entirety,CC0
is a useful licence, otherwise .



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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Yves]

Le 7 mai 2018 07:19:24 GMT+02:00, Michael Kugelmann  a 
écrit :
>On 05.05.2018 at 17:08 Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>>
>> For start, for OSM mapping we are supposed to use data compatible
>with 
>> ODBL,
>>
>> rather than "everything, no matter copyright, as long as we think
>that 
>> we will not be sued".
>>
>And there is nothing to add to this statement! We have always been a 
>project that was very carefull about it's data sources. This was always
>
>one of the strengthes of the project, I request that this stays the
>same.
>

It doesn't harm to add my strong agreement here. 
Yves

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Michael Kugelmann]

On 05.05.2018 at 17:08 Mateusz Konieczny wrote:


For start, for OSM mapping we are supposed to use data compatible with 
ODBL,


rather than "everything, no matter copyright, as long as we think that 
we will not be sued".


And there is nothing to add to this statement! We have always been a 
project that was very carefull about it's data sources. This was always 
one of the strengthes of the project, I request that this stays the same.



Just my 2 cents,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Mateusz Konieczny]

5. May 2018 16:14 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


> On 5. May 2018, at 15:39, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> How copying location data[1] from Google Maps (or other source) via 
>> Wikipedia and Wikidata differs
>>
>> from direct copying from Google maps from legal point of view?
>>
>
>
> if you copy from Google, it is against their terms. If you copy from a cc0 
> dataset like wikidata and someone upstream sues you for doing it, you could 
> refer them to Wikidata. 




Are you sure? CC0 has "Affirmer offers the Work as-is and makes 
norepresentations or 


warranties of any kind concerning theWork, express, implied, statutory or 
otherwise, 


including (...) non infringement"




https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode 






And "refer them to Wikidata" would not change that we would need redact such 
data, 


possibly destroying correct and valuable edits 


(see https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/karitotp/diary/43824 
 for a small-scale 
issue).


 


> Are you sure wikimedia doesn’t have an agreement with google?

I have no idea, I would be happy to discover that my worries are unfounded.

But I have encountered no evidence whatsoever about any methods allowing use to 
import
data from Google Maps via Wikidata (and I would be surprised to discover one)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Mateusz Konieczny]

5. May 2018 16:14 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


> On 5. May 2018, at 15:39, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> sui generis database right is not existing in USA. It is existing in EU, 
>> including UK.
>>
>
>
> right. And the thing you have potentially to fear is that the owner of the db 
> sues you. If this is both wikimedia (for WP and WD) and they have released WD 
> as cc0, what is the problem you fear?




For start, for OSM mapping we are supposed to use data compatible with ODBL,

rather than "everything, no matter copyright, as long as we think that we will 
not be sued".




Additionally, people imported into WD and WP data (and entire databases)

 not owned by Wikimedia Foundation, so owners of this data may disagree with 
WMF.




As I understand situation, there are some cases where data is CC0 in USA 
jurisdiction 


(so for WP and WD) and is still incompatible with ODBL (sui generis database 
right is the 


simplest case).





Just because Wikidata has "CC0" in footer it does not mean that any data 
imported into Wikidata

magically becomes CC0 without any restrictions.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5. May 2018, at 15:39, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> sui generis database right is not existing in USA. It is existing in EU, 
> including UK.
> 


right. And the thing you have potentially to fear is that the owner of the db 
sues you. If this is both wikimedia (for WP and WD) and they have released WD 
as cc0, what is the problem you fear?


> 
> Copyright doesn’t protect facts, ie ccbysa does so neither. Wikidata is 
> containing only facts.
> 
> 
> OSM also contains only facts. It does not mean that OSM may be freely copied 
> and used without restrictions.
> 


first I don’t agree that osm contains only facts, because there is the 
geometric aspect (we „draw“)
second we don’t publish under cc0 like wikidata and we refer to contract law 
and sui generis db rights.


> WRT to database rights in the EU, I don’t think there can be a case between 
> wikidata and wikipedia, and even if there was I am confident it would be 
> settled.
> 
> 
> 
> So - is it OK to:
> 
> - copy location data from Google  into a Wikipedia article 
> 

I don’t know, for WP it is apparently OK, and also Google didn’t sue them so 
far.


> - import this location data to Wikidata (routinely done by bots)
> 

probably they think it is a fact where something is, as this is only about 
positions (nodes) and not about shapes (geometric representation), they could 
be right, again Google seems to think it is ok (and is using Wikidata in their 
database). Obviously the answer to your first question must be yes in order to 
be able to answer yes here.


> - and then import this data into OSM
> 


if the data in Wikidata is cc0, it is probably ok. 



> How copying location data[1] from Google Maps (or other source) via Wikipedia 
> and Wikidata differs
> 
> from direct copying from Google maps from legal point of view?
> 


if you copy from Google, it is against their terms. If you copy from a cc0 
dataset like wikidata and someone upstream sues you for doing it, you could 
refer them to Wikidata. Are you sure wikimedia doesn’t have an agreement with 
google?

Bing gave us a permission to derive features from their aerial imagery. Would 
any other company have the right to use the Bing pictures for the same scope? 
Maybe not (I’m not familiar with Bing terms).

cheers,
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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Christoph Hormann]

Arguing about licenses and their compatibility does not really help in 
this context since having formally compatible license (or the related 
argument that Wikidata is CC0 and therefore by definition the license 
is a non-issue) would not help.  We have just seen in

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/karitotp/diary/43824

that trusting third parties with assurances that data they don't 
actually own is all right to use does not work.  So even if the 
Wikimedia foundation would specifically allow OSM to use certain 
information from Wikipedia without restrictions this is not really 
helpful since what they certainly will never do is give assurances that 
information in Wikipedia or Wikidata is free of third party rights.

From the perspective of OSM things would actually be quite simple:  We 
are based on original research and on-the-ground verifiable 
information.  Any data that is not gathered through original research 
by the mapper should only be used if specific permission is given by 
whoever did the original research generating that data.  That 
specifically excludes Wikipedia since Wikipedia is specifically not 
meant for collecting original research.

Sticking to this principle would serve both in avoiding legal troubles 
and maintaining high quality of data in OSM.  Unfortunately not 
everyone agrees to that.

The Contributor Terms:

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Contributor_Terms

are somewhat solomonic in that regard - The contributors agree to only 
contribute data that is legally sound as far as they know - but nothing 
requires you to refrain from burying your head in the sand so to speak.

Practically we have already seen lots of systematic copying of name tags 
from Wikipedia/Wikidata to OSM in the past years.  You can see this 
from correlations in the naming patterns (including errors) and from 
the editing patterns (mappers adding names in many different languages 
they cannot possibly all have first hand information about).

IMO the quality and data maintainance problems resulting from this are 
much more pressing than the legal issues.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Mateusz Konieczny]

5. May 2018 14:55 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


> sent from a phone
>
>> On 5. May 2018, at 14:28, Mateusz Konieczny <>> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> (and no, Wikidata is not better - it includes data from Wikipedia and entire
>> databases protected by sui generis database right so it is even worse as far 
>> as
>> copyright goes)
>
>
> I’ve read this several times now, but find it to be an over cautious 
> interpretation of the situation. Wikidata is published in cc0, everyone 
> contributing to it knows it. If some years ago wikimedia’s legal department 
> has analyzed the situation and concluded that they could import facts from 
> wikipedia into a cc0 db, why would we not trust them?




sui generis database right is not existing in USA. It is existing in EU, 
including UK.




Also, AFAIK OSM and Wikipedia has a bit different approach to how copyright is 
interpreted





> Copyright doesn’t protect facts, ie ccbysa does so neither. Wikidata is 
> containing only facts.




OSM also contains only facts. It does not mean that OSM may be freely copied 
and used without restrictions.


 

>  WRT to database rights in the EU, I don’t think there can be a case between 
> wikidata and wikipedia, and even if there was I am confident it would be 
> settled.
>




So - is it OK to:

- copy location data from Google  into a Wikipedia article 


 (considered OK and encouraged on Wikipedia)

- import this location data to Wikidata (routinely done by bots)

- and then import this data into OSM




How copying location data[1] from Google Maps (or other source) via Wikipedia 
and Wikidata differs

from direct copying from Google maps from legal point of view?




[1] of lets say museums

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5. May 2018, at 14:28, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> (and no, Wikidata is not better - it includes data from Wikipedia and entire
> databases protected by sui generis database right so it is even worse as far 
> as
> copyright goes)


I’ve read this several times now, but find it to be an over cautious 
interpretation of the situation. Wikidata is published in cc0, everyone 
contributing to it knows it. If some years ago wikimedia’s legal department has 
analyzed the situation and concluded that they could import facts from 
wikipedia into a cc0 db, why would we not trust them? Copyright doesn’t protect 
facts, ie ccbysa does so neither. Wikidata is containing only facts. WRT to 
database rights in the EU, I don’t think there can be a case between wikidata 
and wikipedia, and even if there was I am confident it would be settled.

Cheers,
Martin 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

[Maurizio Napolitano]

> Unfortunately, Wikipedia is licensed under CC-BY-SA what is incompatible
with ODBL.

Finally someone who remembers it

IMHO:
The quick&dirty solution can be to ask the producer the permission to add
the data inserted from wikipedia to openstreetmap with a flag.

On the same time I ask my self how significant is this contribution inside
the entire openstreetmap database.

In a long long way I think that we have to ask to Open Knowledge
International (the producer of the ODbL) and Creative Commons to find a
right way to find a solution to this problem.
Maybe an upgrade of the ODbL can solve some.

What do you think about a discussion between WMF, OSMF, OKFN and CC to
solve the problem is a trasparent way for the community?

my2cents

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