Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
Hi, If you are at least 18 years of age and speak English, [...] The same message has meanwhile been posted to a whole lot of national OSM mailing lists, with an additional ** apologies for cross-posting ** at the top. If you know it is something that you shouldn't be doing, then sticking an upfront apology at the top doesn't cut it really. This is impolite, and disrespectful. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
Looking at what they are doing I'd say the information being dug out will be of value to the OSM community and help us understand a little more about the people who add value to the maps. It might even help us on the retention rate and bring the experience of the average mapper up a little. It's also being done fairly professionally and running something like this properly costs money, at least its not OSM money. In an ideal world the way to get a proper random sample would be to select OSM mappers randomly then message them. Hopefully you'd get better than 90% response rate to keep it statistically meaningful. Reality is you might be lucky to obtain a 2% response. So the next best thing is OSM-talk and hopefully he'll get the 1,000 responses which he needs to make it statistically meaningful. He didn't get that many responses from the OSM-talk message. OSM-talk is bias in that we don't have that many average mappers here, the national OSM mailing lists have more so it makes sense to make the request to a larger audience. OSM is difficult in that it crosses so many cultural boundaries but in this case I think the cross posting was reasonable to obtain the desired number of respondents. How would you suggest he obtained a large enough random sample? Thanks Cheerio John On 23 August 2014 06:05, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, If you are at least 18 years of age and speak English, [...] The same message has meanwhile been posted to a whole lot of national OSM mailing lists, with an additional ** apologies for cross-posting ** at the top. If you know it is something that you shouldn't be doing, then sticking an upfront apology at the top doesn't cut it really. This is impolite, and disrespectful. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
Studies and surveys are interesting for a better understanding of our community, but I'm a bit afraid that the results of this one will be highly biased by one single thing: language. OSM is already very english centric and having a survey that is only available in english won't help understand the OSM community worldwide, just a part of it. It would be interesting to have the same survey being done in another language and compare the results... 2014-08-23 14:48 GMT+02:00 john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com: Looking at what they are doing I'd say the information being dug out will be of value to the OSM community and help us understand a little more about the people who add value to the maps. It might even help us on the retention rate and bring the experience of the average mapper up a little. It's also being done fairly professionally and running something like this properly costs money, at least its not OSM money. In an ideal world the way to get a proper random sample would be to select OSM mappers randomly then message them. Hopefully you'd get better than 90% response rate to keep it statistically meaningful. Reality is you might be lucky to obtain a 2% response. So the next best thing is OSM-talk and hopefully he'll get the 1,000 responses which he needs to make it statistically meaningful. He didn't get that many responses from the OSM-talk message. OSM-talk is bias in that we don't have that many average mappers here, the national OSM mailing lists have more so it makes sense to make the request to a larger audience. OSM is difficult in that it crosses so many cultural boundaries but in this case I think the cross posting was reasonable to obtain the desired number of respondents. How would you suggest he obtained a large enough random sample? Thanks Cheerio John On 23 August 2014 06:05, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, If you are at least 18 years of age and speak English, [...] The same message has meanwhile been posted to a whole lot of national OSM mailing lists, with an additional ** apologies for cross-posting ** at the top. If you know it is something that you shouldn't be doing, then sticking an upfront apology at the top doesn't cut it really. This is impolite, and disrespectful. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
On Saturday 23 August 2014, john whelan wrote: Looking at what they are doing I'd say the information being dug out will be of value to the OSM community and help us understand a little more about the people who add value to the maps. It might even help us on the retention rate and bring the experience of the average mapper up a little. It's also being done fairly professionally and running something like this properly costs money, at least its not OSM money. So the aims justify the means? Sorry - but no, if you cannot do something in a decent manner you can't do it at all. How would you suggest he obtained a large enough random sample? With voluntary participation you can't, no matter what you do. That's why a census generally is not voluntary. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
On 23/08/2014, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: In an ideal world the way to get a proper random sample would be to select OSM mappers randomly then message them. Hopefully you'd get better than 90% response rate to keep it statistically meaningful. Reality is you might be lucky to obtain a 2% response. So the next best thing is OSM-talk and hopefully he'll get the 1,000 responses which he needs to make it statistically meaningful. Remember that we're sending emails and that the task can be automated, so a 2% response rate isn't really an issue. And it's much better to individually contact a uniformly random sample than to globally contact a biased sample (only a particular kind of contributor follows mailing lists). As a added bonus of contacting individually, you already know the person's mapping profile. Here are a few proposed guidelines to keep things in check though : * treat a survey like an import: it should be community-reviewed and accepted before going ahead. Be transparent, be usefull, be well writen, be multilingual, etc. * set target request and response counts ahead of time, and stop sending requests whenever one of the counts is reached * provide a way to opt-out any future survey via you osm account Any other do's and don't ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
On 23.08.2014 15:17, Christian Quest wrote: OSM is already very english centric and having a survey that is only available in english won't help understand the OSM community worldwide, just a part of it. It would be interesting to have the same survey being done in another language and compare the results... Understanding the US part might be of great interest already. I recently finished watching the recordings of the SotM US conference which was held earlier this year. My impression is that OSM in the US is dominated by businesses who see OSM as a way to make money. Some give back quite much in the sense of tools and services, but still: It's done by paid community members. Where are the mappers who are not employed by a company using OSM or are using OSM for their freelance work? Where are the altruistic mappers who do the actual work of mapping? I for myself don't get paid for participating in OSM nor do I participate in OSM for making some business. In fact I'm paining money to partiipate in addition to my time invested. My impression is that many of the European OSM projects adn contributors belong into this category. So having some research done what is actually driving mappers in the US is certainly of great interest. First impression might be that it's a lot more money driven over there. Ever heard of getting some monetary reward for working on any of the European quality tools like OSM inspector or osmose? In the US you are mapping for winning a price (see telenav contest) I'm highly interested in the results of the survey. Given the focus of many questions in the survey it might provide answers to this specific question. Stephan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
Hum, I was finally curious of what I would find there. I find this: It is important that OpenStreetMap keep the use of maps non-commercial. Is this really a serious question, or a serious survey, or am I just completly mistaking about OSM since the beginning, or is my English not as good as I thought it was? Sorry for the interruption, JB. Le 23/08/2014 15:48, moltonel 3x Combo a écrit : On 23/08/2014, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: In an ideal world the way to get a proper random sample would be to select OSM mappers randomly then message them. Hopefully you'd get better than 90% response rate to keep it statistically meaningful. Reality is you might be lucky to obtain a 2% response. So the next best thing is OSM-talk and hopefully he'll get the 1,000 responses which he needs to make it statistically meaningful. Remember that we're sending emails and that the task can be automated, so a 2% response rate isn't really an issue. And it's much better to individually contact a uniformly random sample than to globally contact a biased sample (only a particular kind of contributor follows mailing lists). As a added bonus of contacting individually, you already know the person's mapping profile. Here are a few proposed guidelines to keep things in check though : * treat a survey like an import: it should be community-reviewed and accepted before going ahead. Be transparent, be usefull, be well writen, be multilingual, etc. * set target request and response counts ahead of time, and stop sending requests whenever one of the counts is reached * provide a way to opt-out any future survey via you osm account Any other do's and don't ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
It is important that OpenStreetMap keep the use of maps non-commercial. Either the survey doesn't understand about OSM or since it does have a subject matter specialist on board I'd be inclined to think its surveying the perception of the mappers. I strongly suspect many think it is totally non-commercial and I've seen a number of businesses who didn't realise they could use the maps without payment. Cheerio John On 23 August 2014 10:14, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hum, I was finally curious of what I would find there. I find this: It is important that OpenStreetMap keep the use of maps non-commercial. Is this really a serious question, or a serious survey, or am I just completly mistaking about OSM since the beginning, or is my English not as good as I thought it was? Sorry for the interruption, JB. Le 23/08/2014 15:48, moltonel 3x Combo a écrit : On 23/08/2014, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: In an ideal world the way to get a proper random sample would be to select OSM mappers randomly then message them. Hopefully you'd get better than 90% response rate to keep it statistically meaningful. Reality is you might be lucky to obtain a 2% response. So the next best thing is OSM-talk and hopefully he'll get the 1,000 responses which he needs to make it statistically meaningful. Remember that we're sending emails and that the task can be automated, so a 2% response rate isn't really an issue. And it's much better to individually contact a uniformly random sample than to globally contact a biased sample (only a particular kind of contributor follows mailing lists). As a added bonus of contacting individually, you already know the person's mapping profile. Here are a few proposed guidelines to keep things in check though : * treat a survey like an import: it should be community-reviewed and accepted before going ahead. Be transparent, be usefull, be well writen, be multilingual, etc. * set target request and response counts ahead of time, and stop sending requests whenever one of the counts is reached * provide a way to opt-out any future survey via you osm account Any other do's and don't ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
Ok, then it is the last option, my english is not good enough for this survey. But in this case, I suspect it will also be the case for many many other non-english people… Of course people should be able to make money out of OSM. But as pointed out previously, in some countries, it seems that OSM only evolves where money is involved. Anyway, thanks for the explanation. JB. Le 23/08/2014 16:45, john whelan a écrit : It is important that OpenStreetMap keep the use of maps non-commercial. Either the survey doesn't understand about OSM or since it does have a subject matter specialist on board I'd be inclined to think its surveying the perception of the mappers. I strongly suspect many think it is totally non-commercial and I've seen a number of businesses who didn't realise they could use the maps without payment. Cheerio John On 23 August 2014 10:14, JB jb...@mailoo.org mailto:jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hum, I was finally curious of what I would find there. I find this: It is important that OpenStreetMap keep the use of maps non-commercial. Is this really a serious question, or a serious survey, or am I just completly mistaking about OSM since the beginning, or is my English not as good as I thought it was? Sorry for the interruption, JB. Le 23/08/2014 15:48, moltonel 3x Combo a écrit : On 23/08/2014, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: In an ideal world the way to get a proper random sample would be to select OSM mappers randomly then message them. Hopefully you'd get better than 90% response rate to keep it statistically meaningful. Reality is you might be lucky to obtain a 2% response. So the next best thing is OSM-talk and hopefully he'll get the 1,000 responses which he needs to make it statistically meaningful. Remember that we're sending emails and that the task can be automated, so a 2% response rate isn't really an issue. And it's much better to individually contact a uniformly random sample than to globally contact a biased sample (only a particular kind of contributor follows mailing lists). As a added bonus of contacting individually, you already know the person's mapping profile. Here are a few proposed guidelines to keep things in check though : * treat a survey like an import: it should be community-reviewed and accepted before going ahead. Be transparent, be usefull, be well writen, be multilingual, etc. * set target request and response counts ahead of time, and stop sending requests whenever one of the counts is reached * provide a way to opt-out any future survey via you osm account Any other do's and don't ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
On 23.08.2014 16:14, JB wrote: Hum, I was finally curious of what I would find there. I find this: It is important that OpenStreetMap keep the use of maps non-commercial. Is this really a serious question, or a serious survey, or am I just completly mistaking about OSM since the beginning, or is my English not as good as I thought it was? I consider this question quite clear. Is it of importance to you that OSM is focusing on non-commercial use. What could be alternatives? OSMF itself could try to monetize maps. 3rd party companies could monetize OSM more than currently. It's about your opinion. How important is the non-commercial aspect of a community project (here: OSM) to you? This is not about the OSM license. Stephan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
We understand that as a member of multiple lists some OSM contributors may have received the survey invitation more than once and that may have felt like a disrespectful attempt to impose on ones personal time and inbox space. That was definitely not our intent and although we tried to be judicious in our use of national mailing lists (where we only posted in about 10% of the lists), it is difficult to completely avoid duplicate invites to some members. Simply posting the message on talk pages without having it mailed to members seems not to be an available option in the current OSM list setup. The research we are pursuing is, we believe, of interest and its insights helpful to the OSM community in terms of understanding several issues that can help its organizational functioning and mission accomplishment (they address member perceptions, behavior, and profile). Numerous OSM members have been extremely supportive of our work and virtually all of the survey takers show an interest in learning about the findings at the conclusion of the research, a fact that suggests there is value in this research. Yet in order to obtain statistically meaningful results, a certain number of responses is required and we have frankly not reached it yet (hence the renewed request for participation in some national lists). Rather than resigning ourselves to the thought that voluntary participation is impossible to induce (which would largely suggest academic research to be a futile endeavor), we choose to believe that, given the opportunity, enough people will see the value of such research and sacrifice some personal time for the greater good (a behavior that we believe is not foreign to the OSM contributor base). However, to reduce the irritation that apparently these invite messages can produce, we have limited the number of lists approached and will close the survey as planned at the end of August, regardless of the number of responses we will have received. There are clearly things that could be improved about this work we agree, for example, that offering the survey in multiple languages would help obtain more globally representative samples and insights. Yet in most academic research the tradeoff between ideal methodology and resource limitations is a salient concern, and that is definitely the case here. Finally, it is even the exchanges noted on the talk pages and the [limited] negative feedback we have received that help us learn about how the community works internally and interacts with the outside world we are thankful for all the interested members feedback. To the others, we apologize (again). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 10:51 AM, OSMR osm_resea...@mail.com wrote: We understand that as a member of multiple lists some OSM contributors may have received the survey invitation more than once and that may have felt like a disrespectful attempt to impose on one's personal time and inbox space. That was definitely not our intent and although we tried to be judicious in our use of national mailing lists (where we only posted in about 10% of the lists), it is difficult to completely avoid duplicate invites to some members. Simply posting the message on talk pages without having it mailed to members seems not to be an available option in the current OSM list setup. So many of are frustrated by the limitations of our internal messaging system. But if it were open to just anyone, our system administrator would spend there valuable time blocking individuals that spammed us. The research we are pursuing is, we believe, of interest and its insights helpful to the OSM community in terms of understanding several issues that can help its organizational functioning and mission accomplishment (they address member perceptions, behavior, and profile). Numerous OSM members have been extremely supportive of our work and virtually all of the survey takers show an interest in learning about the findings at the conclusion of the research, a fact that suggests there is value in this research. Yet in order to obtain statistically meaningful results, a certain number of responses is required and we have frankly not reached it yet (hence the renewed request for participation in some national lists). Rather than resigning ourselves to the thought that voluntary participation is impossible to induce (which would largely suggest academic research to be a futile endeavor), we choose to believe that, given the opportunity, enough people will see the value of such research and sacrifice some personal time for the greater good (a behavior that we believe is not foreign to the OSM contributor base). However, to reduce the irritation that apparently these invite messages can produce, we have limited the number of lists approached and will close the survey as planned at the end of August, regardless of the number of responses we will have received. Many of us would like to see more research on the OSM community to help us develop better way to communicate and identify areas of both improvement and strengths. To that end, I like we'd like to be more of a partner in your project rather than just being the subject. It is not surprising that a large number of people completed the survey. By contributing to OSM we are by nature a sharing group. But many of us would like more in return. It would be nice to explain up front what the survey will return to us. Will we be able to analyze the results? Will we have access to the data? Please note, that we give you free and ready access to all of our data. There are clearly things that could be improved about this work – we agree, for example, that offering the survey in multiple languages would help obtain more globally representative samples and insights. Yet in most academic research the tradeoff between ideal methodology and resource limitations is a salient concern, and that is definitely the case here. Yes, multiple languages should be a high priority. I don't have the numbers, but I suspect we have a very large percentage that are not English speakers. The iD editor has well over 10 languages. I suspect that no focus group was used to test the survey or you might have discovered that we didn't like sections of the survey. Finally, it is even the exchanges noted on the talk pages and the [limited] negative feedback we have received that help us learn about how the community works internally and interacts with the “outside world” – we are thankful for all the interested members’ feedback. To the others, we apologize (again). I'd like to suggest that instead of being the outside world that you become a member of our community. One that provides research that helps us improve. Not everyone in our community is a mapper, they contribute in other ways. Research would be a valuable addition. Thanks for listening, Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
clickhole.com has reported that a Local Mapper has responded to misguided surveys by deleting the campus data of the offending institution and replacing it with amenity=kindergarten. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
I have to admit I filled the thing in - I assumed the middle questions were perhaps psychology related (psychology of OSM users, etc). It never asks for name, email address, phone, place of work etc, town etc. - just age. Didn't really strike me as phishing. What do people think about this - I'll delete my cookies etc just in case it is phishing and run an antivirus scan but does anyone recommend doing anything else? Thanks, Nick -Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com wrote: - To: Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us From: Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com Date: 19/08/2014 09:38PM Cc: Talk Openstreetmap talk@openstreetmap.org, cdimo...@mail.sdsu.edu Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community I too found the questions in the middle of the survey a bit odd. .. To the extent that I needed to re-read the email about the study + the Research page of the wiki to evaluate if this was a valid research of just an odd phishing attempt. And while I ended up trusting that this is a legit request I am copying this to cdimo...@mail.sdsu.edu (try to) ensure that this is actually the case. My last question (=feedback request) included thoughts that when researching OSM it would be a good idea to include the research plan (and I'd add that a link to some actual web page where hopefully there is a notion about the research in question). Specifically it would be highly appreciated if possible attachments e.g. to financing entities (related business(es) I would assume primarily) could be listed. .. Or it would be noted that such information can not be released. Additionally it would be great if the research would be open in nature including at least some level of openness in the data (responses). That is, more than the traditional openness of the analysis. This said, I hope I wasn't fooled into giving out information about myself that is actually easily identifiable. .. And if I was fooled than the lesson is on me. If -- as I assume (and hope) -- this is a valid research then I look forward to reading the results. And hopefully seeing some of the collected data openly available. Should we have a Code of Ethics for researching the OSM community? -Jaakko -- jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +505-8845-3391 (Nicaragua) * Voice(mail) / SMS / What's app: +1-202-730-9778 * http://about.me/jaakkoh On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I had the same issue. It stopped being about OSM. Which made me suspect that his intent was other than what was announced. I'd be willing to help the OP if he was agreeable to suggestions. Clifford Typos by tablrt On Aug 19, 2014 11:15 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: On 19/08/14 17:47, OSMR wrote: Thank you in advance for your potential participation and apologies for the lengthy message in case you are not interested. I gave up before I got half way - just seems like a load of useless crap? Anybody actually managed the whole thing? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
On 20/08/14 09:27, Nick Whitelegg wrote: I have to admit I filled the thing in - I assumed the middle questions were perhaps psychology related (psychology of OSM users, etc). It never asks for name, email address, phone, place of work etc, town etc. - just age. Didn't really strike me as phishing. What do people think about this - I'll delete my cookies etc just in case it is phishing and run an antivirus scan but does anyone recommend doing anything else? It is a genuine survey, just those middle questions did not prompt any sensible answers which is why I gave up :) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
I don't think it's a phishing attempt, apart from giving your email address at the end if you want to get an amazon voucher, there is not much that can be used to identify you. I have to admit, the questions were a little odd and somewhat personal, but guessing the research is what motivates people to contribute and what sort of people they are. Tony On 20 August 2014 10:27, Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk wrote: I have to admit I filled the thing in - I assumed the middle questions were perhaps psychology related (psychology of OSM users, etc). It never asks for name, email address, phone, place of work etc, town etc. - just age. Didn't really strike me as phishing. What do people think about this - I'll delete my cookies etc just in case it is phishing and run an antivirus scan but does anyone recommend doing anything else? Thanks, Nick -Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com wrote: - To: Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us From: Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com Date: 19/08/2014 09:38PM Cc: Talk Openstreetmap talk@openstreetmap.org, cdimo...@mail.sdsu.edu Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community I too found the questions in the middle of the survey a bit odd. .. To the extent that I needed to re-read the email about the study + the Research page of the wiki to evaluate if this was a valid research of just an odd phishing attempt. And while I ended up trusting that this is a legit request I am copying this to cdimo...@mail.sdsu.edu (try to) ensure that this is actually the case. My last question (=feedback request) included thoughts that when researching OSM it would be a good idea to include the research plan (and I'd add that a link to some actual web page where hopefully there is a notion about the research in question). Specifically it would be highly appreciated if possible attachments e.g. to financing entities (related business(es) I would assume primarily) could be listed. .. Or it would be noted that such information can not be released. Additionally it would be great if the research would be open in nature including at least some level of openness in the data (responses). That is, more than the traditional openness of the analysis. This said, I hope I wasn't fooled into giving out information about myself that is actually easily identifiable. .. And if I was fooled than the lesson is on me. If -- as I assume (and hope) -- this is a valid research then I look forward to reading the results. And hopefully seeing some of the collected data openly available. Should we have a Code of Ethics for researching the OSM community? -Jaakko -- jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +505-8845-3391 (Nicaragua) * Voice(mail) / SMS / What's app: +1-202-730-9778 * http://about.me/jaakkoh On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I had the same issue. It stopped being about OSM. Which made me suspect that his intent was other than what was announced. I'd be willing to help the OP if he was agreeable to suggestions. Clifford Typos by tablrt On Aug 19, 2014 11:15 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: On 19/08/14 17:47, OSMR wrote: Thank you in advance for your potential participation and apologies for the lengthy message in case you are not interested. I gave up before I got half way - just seems like a load of useless crap? Anybody actually managed the whole thing? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
It is a genuine survey, just those middle questions did not prompt any sensible answers which is why I gave up :) It sounds silly but how does one tell if it is a genuine academic survey or not? I'd like to see an https link to a known trusted web site and not just the OSM wiki. Has the survey been commissioned by a market research company even though its been run by a University, are they collecting IP addresses? We need some type of process to validate survey requests, it isn't just red tape if people feel they can trust the survey they will be more inclined to fill it in. The $100 gift card is fine but do you want people who map or who fill in surveys for a chance of a $100 gift card, and in these days of social media it can take minutes for someone to spread on an offer like this. Cheerio John On 20 August 2014 05:38, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: On 20/08/14 09:27, Nick Whitelegg wrote: I have to admit I filled the thing in - I assumed the middle questions were perhaps psychology related (psychology of OSM users, etc). It never asks for name, email address, phone, place of work etc, town etc. - just age. Didn't really strike me as phishing. What do people think about this - I'll delete my cookies etc just in case it is phishing and run an antivirus scan but does anyone recommend doing anything else? It is a genuine survey, just those middle questions did not prompt any sensible answers which is why I gave up :) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
Hi there, There is the name of Prof. Claudiu Dimofte, and the given mail address matches with his own page on the university website [1]. The subdomain [2] of the given URL seems be owned by the same university, and the main domain [3] is a Online Survey service website. I don't think it's a kind of phishing attempt, and you can easily contact the professor to enquire about the authenticity of this survey. Nevertheless, I'm really surprised about the gift card, I am not familiar with this kind of operation on a university context. (Sorry for my uncertain english...) [1] http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~cba/facdev/dimofte.html [2] https://sdsubusiness.qualtrics.com/ControlPanel/ [3] http://www.qualtrics.com/ 2014-08-20 13:29 GMT+02:00 john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com: It is a genuine survey, just those middle questions did not prompt any sensible answers which is why I gave up :) It sounds silly but how does one tell if it is a genuine academic survey or not? I'd like to see an https link to a known trusted web site and not just the OSM wiki. Has the survey been commissioned by a market research company even though its been run by a University, are they collecting IP addresses? We need some type of process to validate survey requests, it isn't just red tape if people feel they can trust the survey they will be more inclined to fill it in. The $100 gift card is fine but do you want people who map or who fill in surveys for a chance of a $100 gift card, and in these days of social media it can take minutes for someone to spread on an offer like this. Cheerio John On 20 August 2014 05:38, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: On 20/08/14 09:27, Nick Whitelegg wrote: I have to admit I filled the thing in - I assumed the middle questions were perhaps psychology related (psychology of OSM users, etc). It never asks for name, email address, phone, place of work etc, town etc. - just age. Didn't really strike me as phishing. What do people think about this - I'll delete my cookies etc just in case it is phishing and run an antivirus scan but does anyone recommend doing anything else? It is a genuine survey, just those middle questions did not prompt any sensible answers which is why I gave up :) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
Hi, On 08/19/2014 10:31 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com wrote: Should we have a Code of Ethics for researching the OSM community? I give you Muki Haklay's SOTM-EU 2011 talk: http://povesham.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/observing-from-afar-or-joining-the-action-osm-and-giscience-research/ He formulated a code of engagement for researchers which is explained in the talk, I'll summarize: 1. do some mapping 2. read up on OSM 3. explore the data 4. publish outputs in Open Access 5. publish and share data and code 6. be a critical friend of OSM 7. teach about OSM That's just the short form but I think the talk very neatly explains why some researchers might have difficulties interacting with OSM and how things could be better. One would hope that anyone doing OSM research today has at least read up enough to find this talk. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
Mildly off topic, I read this article yesterday http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/19/6044403/derp-research-partnership-launched-by-reddit-twitch-imgur-fark-stack-exchange They aim giving transparency to the research into their online communities as far as I can understand. I took the survey and it's more focused on what kind of person contributes to OSM than what the mapper think of OSM (apart from a general question on the user interface).. Regards, Stefano 2014-08-20 14:30 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, On 08/19/2014 10:31 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com wrote: Should we have a Code of Ethics for researching the OSM community? I give you Muki Haklay's SOTM-EU 2011 talk: http://povesham.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/observing-from-afar-or-joining-the-action-osm-and-giscience-research/ He formulated a code of engagement for researchers which is explained in the talk, I'll summarize: 1. do some mapping 2. read up on OSM 3. explore the data 4. publish outputs in Open Access 5. publish and share data and code 6. be a critical friend of OSM 7. teach about OSM That's just the short form but I think the talk very neatly explains why some researchers might have difficulties interacting with OSM and how things could be better. One would hope that anyone doing OSM research today has at least read up enough to find this talk. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
On 19/08/14 17:47, OSMR wrote: Thank you in advance for your potential participation and apologies for the lengthy message in case you are not interested. I gave up before I got half way - just seems like a load of useless crap? Anybody actually managed the whole thing? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
I had the same issue. It stopped being about OSM. Which made me suspect that his intent was other than what was announced. I'd be willing to help the OP if he was agreeable to suggestions. Clifford Typos by tablrt On Aug 19, 2014 11:15 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: On 19/08/14 17:47, OSMR wrote: Thank you in advance for your potential participation and apologies for the lengthy message in case you are not interested. I gave up before I got half way - just seems like a load of useless crap? Anybody actually managed the whole thing? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
It's actually quite an interesting survey by looking at the questions you can often get an understanding of what is in the questioner's mind. One of the most difficult bits is getting a good sample so please go back and complete it even if it doesn't appear to make sense to you. It does show a fair amount of bias, for example OSM is very important to cyclists but no mention is made of tagging for bicycles. Some terms are not explained well. What is a college degree for example? Colleges and Universities in my experience have different levels of entry and different qualifications this may be different in the US. It asks how often you map but not how many edits you have made. These are quite different values and a link to OSM to show your number of edits as well as how often you map might have been interesting. Another problem we have is turnover, we have an enormous drop out rate. Perhaps a question of when did you do your first edit? Again a link. If we could understand this better we might keep a few more mappers. OSM adds value in many ways. Locally I sat down with the city officials and we looked at the city cycle path map. We then looked at the OSM map and signage and determined that many multi-use paths were not tagged as bicycle=yes. The city's own map now has three times the amount of cycle paths marked on it as it did before as a result of that conversation. The local OSM map hasn't been updated in quite the same way, locally some mappers feel that they know better than the city bylaws if something is a footpath or a multiuse path. I quite like the wedding company that now uses OSM maps since they can print them out and hand them to people. You can't do that with Google. Yet the survey implies that only electronic apps are used for maps. Printed maps are still quite popular and the ability to take the data and render it with different rules is very important to many people. A strong part of OSM is mapping parties but realty is single interest mappers those who drop in bus stops with the phone numbers to call for the next bus for example often add a lot of value. Locally small businesses have added tags with their web site which OSMAND etc can link to, it breaks the Google / Bing monopoly. With an aging population could we engage them to do armchair mapping? Someone I work with creating virtual models is eighty five and getting out and about is a problem to him. However he has an Internet connection and a PC, how much do we need to map in Africa? We have an issue with tags. Sometimes things are tagged incorrectly, sometimes for a particular renderer, some people will go to the OSM feature page wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features some do not. It might be interesting to find out how many knew it existed or why people tag the way they do. The survey seems to assume that people go out and survey then map. I don't think that is the case. Some do, some just add GPS tracks, some refine the tags. Some work on software such as OSMAND, Maperitive etc. Sometimes directly, sometimes by adding a feature request. There is a whole software infrastructure that is part of the OSM environment, it ain't just maps. Cheerio John On 19 August 2014 15:38, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I had the same issue. It stopped being about OSM. Which made me suspect that his intent was other than what was announced. I'd be willing to help the OP if he was agreeable to suggestions. Clifford Typos by tablrt On Aug 19, 2014 11:15 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: On 19/08/14 17:47, OSMR wrote: Thank you in advance for your potential participation and apologies for the lengthy message in case you are not interested. I gave up before I got half way - just seems like a load of useless crap? Anybody actually managed the whole thing? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
I too found the questions in the middle of the survey a bit odd. .. To the extent that I needed to re-read the email about the study + the Research page of the wiki to evaluate if this was a valid research of just an odd phishing attempt. And while I ended up trusting that this is a legit request I am copying this to cdimo...@mail.sdsu.edu (try to) ensure that this is actually the case. My last question (=feedback request) included thoughts that when researching OSM it would be a good idea to include the research plan (and I'd add that a link to some actual web page where hopefully there is a notion about the research in question). Specifically it would be highly appreciated if possible attachments e.g. to financing entities (related business(es) I would assume primarily) could be listed. .. Or it would be noted that such information can not be released. Additionally it would be great if the research would be open in nature including at least some level of openness in the data (responses). That is, more than the traditional openness of the analysis. This said, I hope I wasn't fooled into giving out information about myself that is actually easily identifiable. .. And if I was fooled than the lesson is on me. If -- as I assume (and hope) -- this is a valid research then I look forward to reading the results. And hopefully seeing some of the collected data openly available. Should we have a Code of Ethics for researching the OSM community? -Jaakko -- jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +505-8845-3391 (Nicaragua) * Voice(mail) / SMS / What's app: +1-202-730-9778 * http://about.me/jaakkoh On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I had the same issue. It stopped being about OSM. Which made me suspect that his intent was other than what was announced. I'd be willing to help the OP if he was agreeable to suggestions. Clifford Typos by tablrt On Aug 19, 2014 11:15 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: On 19/08/14 17:47, OSMR wrote: Thank you in advance for your potential participation and apologies for the lengthy message in case you are not interested. I gave up before I got half way - just seems like a load of useless crap? Anybody actually managed the whole thing? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com wrote: Should we have a Code of Ethics for researching the OSM community? Picking up from my own question: When looking at the Research page in the wiki I was actually trying to look for a section that would list ongoing OSM research projects. .. This is something that pretty much anyone doing research related to OSM could just add there if s/he or they wanted. I'd claim that this could increase the trust of some the people within the community to participate in the research. .. A link to the researcher's own web page (university, blog, what not) about the project would be good too as commented in my prior blurb. Cheers, -Jaakko -- jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +505-8845-3391 (Nicaragua) * Voice(mail) / SMS / What's app: +1-202-730-9778 * http://about.me/jaakkoh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
I was surprised by the question about income wasn't the last one, traditionally once people see such a question they stop answering the survey and also consider the survey intrusive, but that is just a question of the structure. The other thing of course is that it is one that doesn't always get you the answer you would like, people fib especially about income. Cheerio John On 19 August 2014 16:31, Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com wrote: I too found the questions in the middle of the survey a bit odd. .. To the extent that I needed to re-read the email about the study + the Research page of the wiki to evaluate if this was a valid research of just an odd phishing attempt. And while I ended up trusting that this is a legit request I am copying this to cdimo...@mail.sdsu.edu (try to) ensure that this is actually the case. My last question (=feedback request) included thoughts that when researching OSM it would be a good idea to include the research plan (and I'd add that a link to some actual web page where hopefully there is a notion about the research in question). Specifically it would be highly appreciated if possible attachments e.g. to financing entities (related business(es) I would assume primarily) could be listed. .. Or it would be noted that such information can not be released. Additionally it would be great if the research would be open in nature including at least some level of openness in the data (responses). That is, more than the traditional openness of the analysis. This said, I hope I wasn't fooled into giving out information about myself that is actually easily identifiable. .. And if I was fooled than the lesson is on me. If -- as I assume (and hope) -- this is a valid research then I look forward to reading the results. And hopefully seeing some of the collected data openly available. Should we have a Code of Ethics for researching the OSM community? -Jaakko -- jaa...@helleranta.com * Skype: jhelleranta * Mobile: +505-8845-3391 (Nicaragua) * Voice(mail) / SMS / What's app: +1-202-730-9778 * http://about.me/jaakkoh On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I had the same issue. It stopped being about OSM. Which made me suspect that his intent was other than what was announced. I'd be willing to help the OP if he was agreeable to suggestions. Clifford Typos by tablrt On Aug 19, 2014 11:15 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: On 19/08/14 17:47, OSMR wrote: Thank you in advance for your potential participation and apologies for the lengthy message in case you are not interested. I gave up before I got half way - just seems like a load of useless crap? Anybody actually managed the whole thing? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
On 19/08/14 23:31, john whelan wrote: I was surprised by the question about income wasn't the last one, traditionally once people see such a question they stop answering the survey and also consider the survey intrusive, but that is just a question of the structure. The other thing of course is that it is one that doesn't always get you the answer you would like, people fib especially about income. I didn't get that far :) I simply had no idea how to answer many of the long lists for which many of the answers were just random hits - so the one to see if you were reading stuck out like a sore thumb ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community
I have some questions about this survey. First of all, you never explain what this survey is for. Is it academic, is it commercial? You mention names of professors, but not institutions. You also never explicitly state what you're studying. Knowing these would put me at ease. Secondly, you don't talk about the outcome of the research. Will it be under an Open Academic License? Thirdly, from what others are saying, there's a lot of sensitive information here. What are you doing to secure the personal identifiable information? I think if you answered these questions, I and others would be more likely to participate. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
