Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Ste Wilson]

My opener for ten.. 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/c79e56d0-ebe9-45a0-a254-2bd4d2f4e175%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Ste Wilson]

Tiddly Wiki is a personal notebook which can be used to store all your thoughts 
in an easy to manage flash cards style system. You can easily link from one 
card to another as well as group topics and thoughts with tags 
#nohashtagneeded. 

It comes in a single file which can be opened and edited in any browser and 
saved back to you usb stick or your pc.

If you want more there are off the shelf plugins available to add functionality 
to your Wiki and the ability to customise it into something unique and bespoke 
for your needs. 

You can get started by downloading your own from tiddlywiki.com. 



-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/21a98304-4170-43de-81c6-a93258759c12%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Its an alarming trend, given that Chrome is so crap on facilities. (Me: 
gnostic in a wood with wi-fi since 1957).

J.

Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> Just an interesting graphic on the browser market: 
> https://www.w3counter.com/trends
>
> Notice Firefox goes from slightly upward to significantly downward when 
> chrome came out. And I think the reason was responsiveness. At least that 
> is what it was for me. 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/080b44c9-539b-448c-90e5-09451d280eda%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Assign me a task for one item.

J

Riz wrote:
>
> Now somebody got to write the answers.  
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/2bb7b237-12b6-4c04-9e94-b10a1885bc36%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Rizwan Ishak]

Now somebody got to write the answers.

On 26-Sep-2017 11:43 PM, "Arlen Beiler"  wrote:

> How can i say PINNED THREAD when so many people here would never see it on
>> GG?
>
>
> I don't think it really matters if *I* don't see it. What matters is that
> I know it is there and every new person that goes to join the group is
> going to see it.
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:10 PM, @TiddlyTweeter 
> wrote:
>
>> How can i say PINNED THREAD when so many people here would never see it
>> on GG?
>>
>> Okay. WELCOME ...
>>
>>1. What is TW?
>>2. Where do you download it?
>>3. What can you do with it?
>>4. How do you save it?
>>5. Some example TiddlyWikis.
>>6. How to ask questions & where.
>>
>> Next up. The OTHER THREAD. The SAVING Crisis (actually its a bonanza
>> already). For LOCAL save ...
>>
>>1. The Death of Firefox at 57 and how to postpone it.
>>2. TiddlyServer (sorted)
>>3. WebDav (in process)
>>4. Mark S' Batch System (interesting experiment)
>>5. TiddlyDesktop (needs updating)
>>6. The other thing ...
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Josiah
>>
>> Riz wrote:
>>>
>>> I say we start here. Right now. Discuss what would we like to see in a
>>> "Welcome" thread...
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ms
>> gid/tiddlywiki/c4b74e9f-b723-4edc-adbb-436eaff5b3f0%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/
> topic/tiddlywiki/Z0cuOfNBEno/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
> tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/
> msgid/tiddlywiki/CAJ1vdSQYJQhZRnX6-qnsVDcX_Uq9J6F%2B-0Q%2Bz__OevKw6eV9dw%
> 40mail.gmail.com
> 
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAO0b0pG487CTHCRRLa_1jSzDGXypGohKSXAqTvzkQqTjQVPRnA%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Arlen Beiler]

>
> How can i say PINNED THREAD when so many people here would never see it on
> GG?


I don't think it really matters if *I* don't see it. What matters is that I
know it is there and every new person that goes to join the group is going
to see it.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:10 PM, @TiddlyTweeter 
wrote:

> How can i say PINNED THREAD when so many people here would never see it on
> GG?
>
> Okay. WELCOME ...
>
>1. What is TW?
>2. Where do you download it?
>3. What can you do with it?
>4. How do you save it?
>5. Some example TiddlyWikis.
>6. How to ask questions & where.
>
> Next up. The OTHER THREAD. The SAVING Crisis (actually its a bonanza
> already). For LOCAL save ...
>
>1. The Death of Firefox at 57 and how to postpone it.
>2. TiddlyServer (sorted)
>3. WebDav (in process)
>4. Mark S' Batch System (interesting experiment)
>5. TiddlyDesktop (needs updating)
>6. The other thing ...
>
> Best wishes
>
> Josiah
>
> Riz wrote:
>>
>> I say we start here. Right now. Discuss what would we like to see in a
>> "Welcome" thread...
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/
> msgid/tiddlywiki/c4b74e9f-b723-4edc-adbb-436eaff5b3f0%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAJ1vdSQYJQhZRnX6-qnsVDcX_Uq9J6F%2B-0Q%2Bz__OevKw6eV9dw%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Slightly tech point ... (you people FORCED me to think more nerdish)

FF 57, so I'm told, by #Mozilla folk who don't care about file saving, will 
attract Chrome users because its looks like Chrome+. I am highly sceptical.

J.

Riz wrote:
>
> PS: It is official I guess - FF 57 aka FF Quantum is hitting shelves on 
> Nov 14th. Apparently it boasts of almost double responsiveness, according 
> to benchmark tests. Would people retain old FF 52 or ESR varieties is that 
> is true?
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/748573af-44e9-4a99-a423-d7f6589cccf3%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Arlen Beiler]

TiddlyTweeter et al,


> Noted. I apologise for referring to it a few times as "Retired". I
> genuinely formed the idea that TiddlyServer was its nemesis.


I had formed that opinion as well based on comments in one of the last
TiddlyWiki hangouts about TiddlyDesktop. There was a TiddlyServer version 1
that was similar to TiddlyDesktop I am told. Thus mine was named version 2.
I don't know why you couldn't use TiddlyServer 2 to build a new
TiddlyDesktop 2, except that it doesn't quite have the same functionality
yet. They would basically perform the same function.

I would be happy to work with any developers who want to do something like
this, or contribute ideas. At some point, TiddlyServer is probably going to
get an admin panel.

That is REALLY INTERESTING COMMENT. I do not get this GG through Email. To
> me IT IS A FORUM.


I get *these* GG through my email, where it is conveniently grouped by
thread and tagged according which GG it originates from. However I am
probably one of the biggest culprits when it comes to using regular for dev
talk. I try to keep it separate, but sometimes I forget.

I've also become pretty experienced at figuring out which threads are of
interest to me (esp. design discussions) and which are out of my field
(anything with filters or wikitext). Gmail tells me how many emails came in
for that category since I last checked, so I can pretty well make sure I
don't miss anything I'm interested in.

Then, of course, I can search for any mention of a certain term, such as
TiddlyServer, right in my inbox.


> * There’s often a feeling that making changes to tiddlywiki.com isn’t
> practical, which I think is why we’re discussing using pinned threads to
> solve problems that should really be solved on the main site.  I’m very
> much open to contributions that make changes, but those contributions have
> to happen…


I usually feel this way as well. Although I probably shouldn't. Now that I
have the tools I need to easily clone and commit (GitHub Desktop), it
should make it easier. I just have to look up what exactly to edit.

To kick off, for a long time my ambition for migrating from Google Groups
> has been to eat our own dog food and move to a TiddlyWiki-based discussion
> board...


There's a lot of work between here and there. TiddlyWiki hasn't yet seen a
solution that scales well no matter the size. And this Google Group
generates a lot of content. I really feel like we need a wiki where some of
us who want to document stuff can do so. We already have Wikibooks
available. Github wiki could work but is not as easy to organize nicely. We
have reddit wiki. And we could use TiddlyWiki for a community wiki. I feel
like I'm getting close to that point with TiddlyServer and CardServe (in
the works), but I have no idea what Jeremy has up his sleeve. That would
not need to scale nearly as much as a message board or forum would anyway.

Arlen

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 10:01 AM, @TiddlyTweeter 
wrote:

> Ciao Jeremy & tutti,
>
> Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> To kick off, for a long time my ambition for migrating from Google Groups
>> has been to eat our own dog food and move to a TiddlyWiki-based discussion
>> board...
>>
>
> Brilliant. The only problem is the starving dog :-). The downside is
> whilst we wait *Rover has a bit of a lean time* :-).
>
>
>> Josiah’s original question was whether it was worth keeping the
>> TiddlyWikiDocs and TiddlyWikiDev groups because they seem peripheral...
>>
>> I’m not sure that I can see any case for closing them.
>>
>
> Actually I agree--but weakly. Meaning, I don't think it does harm having
> them. But I still don't think it adds anything. For the life of me I can't
> find a single post on TiddlyWikiDev that I haven't seen the like of in the
> TiddlyWiki GG. And TiddlyWikiDocs is largely unused.
>
>
>> ... a critical thing is that in a classical open source project these are
>> mailing lists, and not forums.
>>
>
> That is REALLY INTERESTING COMMENT. I do not get this GG through Email. To
> me IT IS A FORUM.
>
> Because I view it as an online forum, maybe you can see now why I attach
> more relevance to Pinned threads etc than someone who gets it all through
> email.
>
> I think its important to understand that GG is NOT just a mailing list.
> This has some bearing on current issues.
>
>
>> ... I am preparing an update for TiddlyDesktop with the latest version of
>> nw.js, so that will remain an option for Firefox refugees
>>
>
> Noted. I apologise for referring to it a few times as "Retired". I
> genuinely formed the idea that TiddlyServer was its nemesis.
>
>
>> * ... Stack Exchange could only host a component of our online community
>> ...
>>
>
> Agree. StackExchange, also, I find, illustrates a negative "numbers game".
> The very robust TW community still has trouble there because of our low
> numbers. That makes it hard to get momentum to get it to work. So, in that
> sense, we are victims of its restrictive volume rules.
>

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy & tutti,

Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> To kick off, for a long time my ambition for migrating from Google Groups 
> has been to eat our own dog food and move to a TiddlyWiki-based discussion 
> board...
>

Brilliant. The only problem is the starving dog :-). The downside is whilst 
we wait *Rover has a bit of a lean time* :-). 
 

> Josiah’s original question was whether it was worth keeping the 
> TiddlyWikiDocs and TiddlyWikiDev groups because they seem peripheral...
>
> I’m not sure that I can see any case for closing them.
>

Actually I agree--but weakly. Meaning, I don't think it does harm having 
them. But I still don't think it adds anything. For the life of me I can't 
find a single post on TiddlyWikiDev that I haven't seen the like of in the 
TiddlyWiki GG. And TiddlyWikiDocs is largely unused.
 

> ... a critical thing is that in a classical open source project these are 
> mailing lists, and not forums. 
>

That is REALLY INTERESTING COMMENT. I do not get this GG through Email. To 
me IT IS A FORUM. 

Because I view it as an online forum, maybe you can see now why I attach 
more relevance to Pinned threads etc than someone who gets it all through 
email. 

I think its important to understand that GG is NOT just a mailing list. 
This has some bearing on current issues.
 

> ... I am preparing an update for TiddlyDesktop with the latest version of 
> nw.js, so that will remain an option for Firefox refugees
>

Noted. I apologise for referring to it a few times as "Retired". I 
genuinely formed the idea that TiddlyServer was its nemesis.
 

> * ... Stack Exchange could only host a component of our online community 
> ...
>

Agree. StackExchange, also, I find, illustrates a negative "numbers game". 
The very robust TW community still has trouble there because of our low 
numbers. That makes it hard to get momentum to get it to work. So, in that 
sense, we are victims of its restrictive volume rules.
 

> * Josiah’s comments about "HERE IS THE SCREENPLAY MAKER" & "THERE IS THE 
> BRILLIANT GTD SYSTEM” suggest that we’ve not done a good job of 
> communicating the purpose of “editions” of TiddlyWiki. The intention is 
> precisely as described: a series of canned, off-the-shelf starter wikis for 
> various specific purposes. The presentation isn’t good at the moment but 
> that particular wheel has been invented...
>

I think this is quite a complex issue. I'm as much as fault as anyone for 
not ever having publicly released anything. I got touched with DIY-itis, so 
nothing I ever make is good enough--yet--yet.

It's an issue I hope we can collectively consider more. I'm convinced there 
is great work in the wings that if it were more visible would help newbies 
grasp what TW can do for them.
 

> * Josiah suggests catering for the needs of newbies to TiddlyWiki is with 
> a dedicated discussion group ... it’s even more important that we cater for 
> newbies at tiddlywiki.com. 
>

One small point on this. The BRIDGE between GG & tiddlywiki.com is perhaps 
not quite as clear as it could be on the GG end. 

For instance, the header for the group does not give the address of 
tiddlywiki.com . And there is not a single pinned thread saying WELCOME in 
the GG group that points back to tiddlywiki.com for beginners.
 

> * There’s often a feeling that making changes to tiddlywiki.com isn’t 
> practical, which I think is why we’re discussing using pinned threads to 
> solve problems that should really be solved on the main site.  I’m very 
> much open to contributions that make changes, but those contributions have 
> to happen… 
>

Yes. I think part of this is there is no real clear BRIDGE mechanism 
between the two to clarify (a) HOW to do it; (b) WHAT is valuable to prep, 
what is NEEDED. Its pretty obvious that a LOT of things written into this 
GG daily are proto-documentation. But some mechanism is needed to point to 
the valuable ones. Its erroneous to believe people will point to 
themselves--so I think one needs a thread to PROMOTE THIS to list things 
worth working up into documentation. I just don't believe good docs arise 
from nowhere. It needs a framework of intent & need.

Best wishes
Josiah

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0ec6604d-0c8a-40b2-b897-735753b9bf9e%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM & all

A small footnote to last.

Though I had no idea what it was or what to do with it, it was seeing Eric 
Shulman's TiddlyTools some long time ago that alerted me to TiddlyWiki. It 
stuck in me despite not using it at the time. And some years later I came 
back & re-looked at it and then found TW5. 

IF my First Contact had been Google Groups--forget it. I HAVE to SEE 
something special fully dedicated to a purpose to grog it. TiddlyTools did 
the trick with me--even though I have never used it.

Best wishes
Josiah

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/88f0ca92-c438-44bd-961d-a769d4e41018%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[TonyM]

Josia,

You say 


> What Newbies need, IMO, is a simple Google group with basic instructions 
> and Q & A. And LINKS to FULL-FEATURED completed TW designed for SPECIFIC 
> PURPOSES so they can download what they need to get on with it and forget 
> everything else.
>

I agree but unless a group/forum is part of something the non-newbies 
frequent it will need a collaborative effort to maintain. This is not 
difficult, it just needs to launch and a little grit to "make it stick":

On editions (Complete TWs) see below. 
 

> On whether TW is here for the long haul? YES, it is. It is a remarkable 
> bit of kit that has proven resilient for over a decade already.
>

Totally agree 

>
> The fact the user base is small compared to TW's huge utility is a sad 
> thing. IMO if we provided more FULLY FORMED apps in a simple way it would 
> get used a lot more.
>

First I think you may find a lot of people discover tiddlywki and go away 
and use it, and sometimes we hear from them. This is what I did with TWC 
and Erics TiddlyTools site for a long time. A Key cultural feature of the 
google groups was you did not need to search you just ask.

I agree some fully formed apps in a directory would be good but I would 
like to suggest we do have some of these and I for one are impressed by 
them, they are on my HDD, they inspire me, but I do not use them. The thing 
is they are either the whole solution (you have to buy into them), or only 
part of the solution (you need to combine with other features/plugins). I 
think a little more supportive content between plugins and editions in size 
is what we need. I am working on a few myself but it will be some time 
before I can demonstrate where I am, coming from. We need to extend this 
building block approach into the solutions people can use, without 
providing only part, or all of the solution.

I believe there needs to be an ecosystem of solutions rather than editions, 
code or plugins, even if you use plugins to archive this, people are 
thinking about and working on solutions.

Regards
Tony

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f4229994-4814-4004-8608-6d2ae5c52898%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Jeremy Ruston]

Again, thanks to everyone for contributing to another interesting thread.

To kick off, for a long time my ambition for migrating from Google Groups has 
been to eat our own dog food and move to a TiddlyWiki-based discussion board. 
Part of the motivation is that I believe we could build a tool that supports 
ordinary back-and-forth threaded discussion, but also adds features to enable 
community members to refactor/reindex/retag/remix posts to make them logically 
arranged and easy to find. I parrot that the purpose of TiddlyWiki is to make 
information reusable by chopping it up into chunks and weaving those chunks 
into a multiplicity of narrative sequences, and that’s pretty much what I see 
needed here.

Josiah’s original question was whether it was worth keeping the TiddlyWikiDocs 
and TiddlyWikiDev groups because they seem peripheral. The origins are that we 
created those two groups in response to the community feeling that those topics 
were crowding out the main group, and putting off newbies due to their 
complexity.

I’m not sure that I can see any case for closing them.

Having topic-specific mailing lists is common amongst open source projects. The 
problems, such as they are, are easily understood: people can have difficulty 
picking the right group for their post, and threads can drift between topics. 
For me, a critical thing is that in a classical open source project these are 
mailing lists, and not forums. The great advantage of mailing lists is that 
they are delivered via push to a single place (my inbox); with forums users 
need to visit each one to find the latest activity (unless they are 
sophisticated enough to use an RSS reader). Thus, for people like me who prefer 
to participate with discussion groups via email there’s very little cost to 
being subscribed to a low traffic group. I do appreciate that for people 
reading via the web interface it’s a little harder, but not much; Google Groups 
shows a count of unread posts in the groups to which you are subscribed.

Beyond Josiah’s original question there were some other parts of the thread I’d 
like to pick up:

* Firstly, TiddlyDesktop isn’t dead. It’s just that I’ve lost some enthusiasm 
for it because of the feedback that it wasn’t as good as their regular browser 
(in terms of spell checking etc). My worry has been that TiddlyDesktop 
development could degenerate into endlessly chasing end user browser features. 
Then Arlen started TiddlyServer which does an awful lot of the things that I 
was interested in exploring with TiddlyDesktop...

* Nonetheless, I am preparing an update for TiddlyDesktop with the latest 
version of nw.js, so that will remain an option for Firefox refugees

* As I understand it, the TiddlyWiki Stack Exchange site couldn’t really be a 
substitute for the general TiddlyWiki discussion group because Stack Exchange 
is ruthlessly focussed on the Q format. At least when they started, they 
discouraged free-wheeling discussion and focussed on asking and answering 
questions. Unless that’s changed, Stack Exchange could only host a component of 
our online community

* Josiah’s comments about "HERE IS THE SCREENPLAY MAKER" & "THERE IS THE 
BRILLIANT GTD SYSTEM” suggest that we’ve not done a good job of communicating 
the purpose of “editions” of TiddlyWiki. The intention is precisely as 
described: a series of canned, off-the-shelf starter wikis for various specific 
purposes. The presentation isn’t good at the moment but that particular wheel 
has been invented...

* Josiah suggests catering for the needs of newbies to TiddlyWiki is with a 
dedicated discussion group. While a dedicated group could be useful, I think 
it’s even more important that we cater for newbies at tiddlywiki.com 
. It’s actually quite a dedicated newbie who gets from 
tiddlywiki.com  to the point of finding the discussion 
groups

* There’s often a feeling that making changes to tiddlywiki.com 
 isn’t practical, which I think is why we’re discussing 
using pinned threads to solve problems that should really be solved on the main 
site.  I’m very much open to contributions that make changes, but those 
contributions have to happen… 

* The proposal has come up of migrating from Google Groups to another bit of 
forum software. One problem is that I don’t see any forum software that really 
moves significantly beyond Google Groups. Things like Discourse are pretty 
old-fashioned and traditional. But in any event, any move needs to consider 
who’s going to host it, who’s going to pay for it, who’s going to ensure 
backups are taken etc. It is more than just choosing and deploying software to 
a server.

I have some thoughts for where we might go from here:

* We need to get to the point where a bigger team in the community can update 
tiddlywiki.com  with links to new examples, plugins etc 
so that we spread the workload

* We need to move 

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Lost Admin]

I didn't know there was a Reddit for tiddlywiki. I will go stealth reading 
it for a while.

I use reddit to get very specific news about very specific things. 
sub-reddits that turn into a forum (like this) I drop pretty quickly. But, 
that's just my useage pattern. I am fully away others work completely 
differently.

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 5:15:03 PM UTC-4, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Its here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/ ... 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/b0dfcf71-32ae-4738-97fc-b5e1816dadf6%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Its here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/ ... and Riz is doing a few 
posts again after his resurrection from wage slavery & pissed-offness at 
the state of the world... 

On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 22:57:47 UTC+2, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> So how do I sign up for the Reddit group and actually start using it?
>
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 4:39 PM, @TiddlyTweeter  > wrote:
>
>>  I totally agree. AND disagree. BEFORE tiddlywiki.com how about PINNING 
>> here? The problem with talking about tiddlywiki.com is its one step too 
>> far away from anyone but @Jermolene doing anything. Like its "over there 
>> that it gets done" (by who?).
>>
>> The issue, at root is about MAKING A DECISION amongst those who would do 
>> it THEN LOBBY @Jermolene to get it moved on. IMO, I think PINNED threads 
>> here in GG could be a way to develop such material in an incremental 
>> manageable fashion.
>>
>> Best wishes 
>> Josiah
>>
>> On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 22:22:46 UTC+2, ste...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 1:47:21 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:


 I can see an argument for adding more FAQ type docs to tiddlywiki.com. 
 That is the minimalist way, ie a <> or similar.

 I don't know how often this has been discussed already, but 
>>> tiddlywiki.com could also use more examples (e. g. for the usage of 
>>> macros, widgets, filters etc.) Examples are often the easiest way to 
>>> understand new concepts. Many Linux man pages suffer from the same problem, 
>>> by the way.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/51cfbc8c-8596-419b-a88c-c2ce00f69818%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/eefdeaa6-d7a4-42dd-be43-d598b668f388%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Arlen Beiler]

So how do I sign up for the Reddit group and actually start using it?

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 4:39 PM, @TiddlyTweeter 
wrote:

>  I totally agree. AND disagree. BEFORE tiddlywiki.com how about PINNING
> here? The problem with talking about tiddlywiki.com is its one step too
> far away from anyone but @Jermolene doing anything. Like its "over there
> that it gets done" (by who?).
>
> The issue, at root is about MAKING A DECISION amongst those who would do
> it THEN LOBBY @Jermolene to get it moved on. IMO, I think PINNED threads
> here in GG could be a way to develop such material in an incremental
> manageable fashion.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
> On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 22:22:46 UTC+2, ste...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 1:47:21 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I can see an argument for adding more FAQ type docs to tiddlywiki.com.
>>> That is the minimalist way, ie a <> or similar.
>>>
>>> I don't know how often this has been discussed already, but
>> tiddlywiki.com could also use more examples (e. g. for the usage of
>> macros, widgets, filters etc.) Examples are often the easiest way to
>> understand new concepts. Many Linux man pages suffer from the same problem,
>> by the way.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Stef
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/
> msgid/tiddlywiki/51cfbc8c-8596-419b-a88c-c2ce00f69818%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAJ1vdSTywit73aC%2BVipTeqdExxFGxQVX%3DGqJBrx%2BWytc-bCwBQ%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

 I totally agree. AND disagree. BEFORE tiddlywiki.com how about PINNING here? 
The problem with talking about tiddlywiki.com is its one step too far away 
from anyone but @Jermolene doing anything. Like its "over there that it 
gets done" (by who?).

The issue, at root is about MAKING A DECISION amongst those who would do it 
THEN LOBBY @Jermolene to get it moved on. IMO, I think PINNED threads here 
in GG could be a way to develop such material in an incremental manageable 
fashion.

Best wishes 
Josiah

On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 22:22:46 UTC+2, ste...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 1:47:21 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:
>>
>>
>> I can see an argument for adding more FAQ type docs to tiddlywiki.com. 
>> That is the minimalist way, ie a <> or similar.
>>
>> I don't know how often this has been discussed already, but 
> tiddlywiki.com could also use more examples (e. g. for the usage of 
> macros, widgets, filters etc.) Examples are often the easiest way to 
> understand new concepts. Many Linux man pages suffer from the same problem, 
> by the way.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stef
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/51cfbc8c-8596-419b-a88c-c2ce00f69818%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[stefct4]

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 1:47:21 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:
>
>
> I can see an argument for adding more FAQ type docs to tiddlywiki.com. 
> That is the minimalist way, ie a <> or similar.
>
> I don't know how often this has been discussed already, but tiddlywiki.com 
could also use more examples (e. g. for the usage of macros, widgets, 
filters etc.) Examples are often the easiest way to understand new 
concepts. Many Linux man pages suffer from the same problem, by the way.

Cheers,

Stef

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/b6e325fd-7a5e-4ce4-a6ad-396568f8652c%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

EXACTLY.  We are here in this camp. Like it or lump it.

One thing I do keep pointng at is PINNING of a few threads here...  like ...

-- NEW HERE?

and 

-- WAYS TO SAVE YOUR TIDDLYWIKI.

 and maybe a few others like ...

-- SHOWCASE LINKS

and 

-- GREAT PLUGINS

But so far I never got anyone interested.

Basically we are a comfy basket that keeps itself warm :-). 

Best wishes
Josiah


Ste Wilson wrote:
>
> Aren't we just circling the drain? Riz campaigned for a Reddit group 
> worked hard to set it up and then watched as nothing happened.. We have 
> that other thing that still needs votes (stack exchange?) which is going 
> nowhere fast but we do have yet another thread calling for better 
> documentation, newbie friendliness, better links to mature tiddlywiky's and 
> here we are... On Google groups. 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/359e00d1-4f64-4634-a923-b6a85ace69db%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Ste Wilson]

Aren't we just circling the drain? Riz campaigned for a Reddit group worked 
hard to set it up and then watched as nothing happened.. We have that other 
thing that still needs votes (stack exchange?) which is going nowhere fast but 
we do have yet another thread calling for better documentation, newbie 
friendliness, better links to mature tiddlywiky's and here we are... On Google 
groups. 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/277c23f0-72a5-4539-ab97-6595bba21b80%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

What about trying a forum ? We can easily bring up a forum on any free tier, 
for example an heroku app and if it suceeds we can port it to whatever paid 
plan fits out needs, and maybe Jeremy could create an a record like 
forum.tiddlywiki.com for it. All are very straightforward and small steps 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f818dbd6-a24f-46c4-8994-4c694e2f9c72%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao dg

I agree with you that many *SEARCHES for TiddlyWiki bring up both Classic & 
TW5*. Since TW5 is NOT fully downwardly compatible *it can create confusion* 
having those results. *Different names should have been used, really* as 
they are different things. They weren't named so differently, so newbies 
can form the IMPRESSION TWC should be subsumed by & auto-supported by TW5. 
That is not the case in any straightforward way. 

It has left a CONFUSING legacy. It is too late to put it right now.

Regarding PINNING for beginners*. For reasons I don't understand there was 
resounding SILENCE. *It may be this group is in a Catch 22. There are not 
that many active people here and (rightly) the small numbers don't want to 
get involved in stuff like supporting beginners explicitly because its a 
BIG commitment to do it properly. 

*On the other hand, nobody here is against beginners*.

IN SHORT --- IF you have CHUTZPA as a newbie you will do okay. You may well 
be appreciated. 

But there is NO pinned HAND-HOLDING SECTION section yet. There should be, 
but there isn't. So the beginning of really utilizing TW *IS* tough.

Best wishes 
Josiah

dg wrote:
>
> Pinned threads would be very helpful! 
>
> great TW tutorial sites are for TWC, sorting out what works for the 
> current incarnation is a real problem. I don't know how applicable that 
> material is, so I stay away from it. 
>
> A source of current, curated content would help a lot.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/68d26915-761c-4630-a93a-101e94d4da87%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Dave Goggin]

Pinned threads would be very helpful!

Since most of the great TW tutorial sites are for TWC, sorting out what
works for the current incarnation is a real problem. I don't know how
applicable that material is, so I stay away from it.

A source of current, curated content would help a lot. TiddlyWiki.com only
gets you so far.

-- dg

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 7:59 AM @TiddlyTweeter 
wrote:

> Ciao Mat
>
> Actually, I agree. Not least because its pretty obvious TW currently does
> not have enough active uses to maintain yet more Groups. That was partly my
> point in the first place "Get rid of all redundancy".
>
> One thing I think you overlook is people are ALSO looking here, not just
> at passive sites. They also look to THIS discussion group. Looking for
> relevant INTERACTION.
>
> I think whatever aids NEWBIES in some minimalist way should ALSO be PINNED
> threads HERE. So that a Newbie visiting this group could FIND THEIR FEET.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
>
>
> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> What is MISSING is a MINIMALIST way forward when you start. A place to
>>> ASK about real basics.
>>>
>>
>
>> Mat wrote:
>> I can see an argument for adding more FAQ type docs to tiddlywiki.com.
>> That is the minimalist way, ie a <> or similar.
>>
>> *Beyond that, I don't see what another forum than this one would bring to
>> beginners.*
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/Z0cuOfNBEno/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
> tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0e01ccd7-0977-4b34-8d87-0eaf50e33b00%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
-- 

--
Dave Goggin
david.gog...@gmail.com

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAA0nH6gVVdOioSCh1Cfib3rMqRz5Wnb3jNF82naqDBiLT-Zwiw%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Further to last.

We become BLIND to basics enjoying the dynamism here so much.

Do you realise the header for this group does NOT give a link to 
tiddlywiki.com .. this is how it reads ...



Welcome to the TiddlyWiki 5 discussion group for end users. Feel free to 
ask questions - we welcome newcomers, and are eager to help everyone get 
the best out of TiddlyWiki 5. 

   - We're moving discussions about the older version 2.x.x of TiddlyWiki 
   to the TiddlyWikiClassic 
    group
   - See the TiddlyWikiDev 
    group for 
   technical questions about JavaScript, CSS etc.
   - See the TiddlyWikiDocs  
   group for discussions about improving the documentation.
   - An enhanced group search facility is available via mail-archive.com 
   
   - Please remember that people reading your post via email won't see any 
   edits you make after posting; it's usually best to make a follow up post if 
   you have substantive comments to add or correct.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f5571b1c-428f-4fd3-8804-87bc91973c8e%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

Actually, I agree. Not least because its pretty obvious TW currently does 
not have enough active uses to maintain yet more Groups. That was partly my 
point in the first place "Get rid of all redundancy". 

One thing I think you overlook is people are ALSO looking here, not just at 
passive sites. They also look to THIS discussion group. Looking for 
relevant INTERACTION. 

I think whatever aids NEWBIES in some minimalist way should ALSO be PINNED 
threads HERE. So that a Newbie visiting this group could FIND THEIR FEET.

Best wishes
Josiah


@TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>>
>> What is MISSING is a MINIMALIST way forward when you start. A place to 
>> ASK about real basics. 
>>
>  

> Mat wrote:
> I can see an argument for adding more FAQ type docs to tiddlywiki.com. 
> That is the minimalist way, ie a <> or similar.
>
> *Beyond that, I don't see what another forum than this one would bring to 
> beginners.*
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0e01ccd7-0977-4b34-8d87-0eaf50e33b00%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>
> What is MISSING is a MINIMALIST way forward when you start. A place to ASK 
> about real basics. 
>

I can see an argument for adding more FAQ type docs to tiddlywiki.com. That 
is the minimalist way, ie a <> or similar.

Beyond that, I don't see what another forum than this one would bring to 
beginners.

<:-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/42ef0d43-6518-4e04-9a5e-1ca0ab9b8c53%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario & TonyM 

Just to clarify one point. 

By* FULLY FORMED TW* ... *what I meant was a complete functioning 
application that has a public web address you can get it from*. Click & get 
it. That WHOLE TW.

For NEWBIES add-on modules, plugins and all the kind of DIY things WE take 
for granted are BARRIERS to entry IMO. 

They come later. Much later.

Its complex enough for a NEWBIE. Even when they clicked and saved they 
still need to figure out how to SAVE the damned thing in usage and learn 
how to install additional thing (like a browser plugin) to do that. That's 
enough tech already. 

What is MISSING is a MINIMALIST way forward when you start. A place to ASK 
about real basics. 

That is why I'm interested in a LESS COMPLEX Google Group for Newbies. A 
group that focuses ONLY on getting you up and using in as simple a way as 
possible. 

Best wishes
Josiah 

On Wednesday, 6 September 2017 18:23:22 UTC+2, PMario wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 4:05:26 PM UTC+2, TonyM wrote:
>>
>> I would add to the idea of formed applications, another layer of self 
>> contained modules, as is often the outcome of a specific plugin rather than 
>> an whole edition. 
>>
>
> For me edtions and apps are the same thing.  but you are right lego 
> blocks are better, but increase the complexity.
>  
>
>> I plan to build something I call object tiddlers, and hope to create lego 
>> blocks rather than provide a lego kit for the "millennium falcon", I want 
>> to provide engines, landing gear and "nuclear power piles". So you build 
>> your spaceship, not simply ask questions or follow instructions.
>>
>
> Did you have a look at my bundler plugin 
> . IMO it could provide 
> "lego blocks", if you make the content "small enough". The main problem is, 
> to manage the versioning problems, that will come up. 
>
> have fun!
> mario
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/91cc34e5-a7b2-4fb0-b393-a40a6f4d504d%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao dg

That is a very GOOD, USEFUL, reply to issues I was trying to 
articulate--you did better than I did. That is part of the issue. I'm so 
embedded in basic knowing of TW--I'm getting blind to BASIC SIMPLE NEEDS of 
many potential users.

IMO we let down potential new users. 

Part of the issue, as you say, is that it is NOT good for newbies to have 
to cope with a group that has threads that are so technically complex you 
have No Idea what they crapping on about. 

What Newbies need, IMO, is a simple Google group with basic instructions 
and Q & A. And LINKS to FULL-FEATURED completed TW designed for SPECIFIC 
PURPOSES so they can download what they need to get on with it and forget 
everything else.

On whether TW is here for the long haul? YES, it is. It is a remarkable bit 
of kit that has proven resilient for over a decade already.

The fact the user base is small compared to TW's huge utility is a sad 
thing. IMO if we provided more FULLY FORMED apps in a simple way it would 
get used a lot more.

Best wishes
Josiah

On Sunday, 10 September 2017 16:48:54 UTC+2, dg wrote:
>
> I'm one of the "newbie's" referred to in this discussion. I know only a 
> smattering of HTML, even less CSS, and virtually nothing about 
> client/server or node.js, etc. I don't even know JavaScript (JS), 
> although I may learn since it's so pervasive. I have done simple 
> programming before in FORTRAN and VBA. I currently use Windows, but have 
> used Unix before. 
>
> I wished for a newbie group on TW. But I wonder if is whether there's 
> sufficient traffic to make it worthwhile. In fact, my main concern about 
> learning TW is that it seems a niche tool and I'm not sure of it's long 
> term prognosis. 
>
> My primary interest in TW is a personal notebook/knowledge-base. Commerial 
> Wiki's like http://www.wikidot.com/  would be 
> perfect for me except data security at work prevents me from putting a lot 
> of my professional notes in the cloud. Password protected TW file local 
> to my encrypted hard drive is a viable solution.
>
> To explain my wish for a newbie group, and concern that it might not work 
> for TW, please see the following:
>
>- I learned VIM years ago and, at that time, the very active 
>"vim-beginners" group was a great way to learn practical tips that 
>eventually changed my experience of VIM from a nightmare to a dream to 
> use. 
>The more advanced VIM groups were way over my head and talked about things 
>I wasn't interested in (developing plugins, etc.)
>- The "vim-beginners" group was a much better way to learn VIM than 
>reading the manual. At that time, the manual was about the only way to 
>learn VIM. Recently, there's been a slew of books and web sites providing 
>lots of information about learning VIM. If I was learning today, the 
>"vim-beginners" group would not be the best way to learn. 
>- Like the advanced VIM groups, this TW forum mostly talks about 
>things over my head and of no real interest to me. It's not a good way to 
>learn TW.
>- Web searches on TW questions return a lot of dated material from TW 
>Classic, etc. It's not only hard to figure out what applies to TW5, it's 
>disconcerting to see all the really great tutorials and beginner material 
>on TW is 5-10 years old. Makes me wonder about the future of TW. 
>
> I hope my input is helpful to your decsion.
>
> Thx!
> -- 
>  -- dg 
>
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 at 3:06:57 PM UTC-4, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> After a while chickens land ...
>>
>> As far as i can see THIS group covers EVERYTHING TiddlyWiki.
>>
>> The groups *TiddlyWikiDocs & TiddlyWikiDev seem very peripheral. Are 
>> they NEEDED?*
>>
>> The flipside  is that often here dicussion is HIGHLY TECHNICAL 
>> conversations that some visitor looking to be able to get a bit of software 
>> to be able to write a memo to grandma would find far too much.
>>
>> I have a suggestion.
>>
>> 1 - DUMP TiddlyWikiDocs & TiddlyWikiDev
>>
>> 2 - START a TiddlyWikiNewbie that contains ONLY info for beginners
>>
>> In any case the current situation with the groups is more platitude than 
>> reality. HERE is the hub. Any OTHER group should be the HUB INTRO. IMO. Get 
>> rid of redundancy.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Josiah 
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/38b35435-4b9c-446f-baee-0dee4193ddfd%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[dg]

I'm one of the "newbie's" referred to in this discussion. I know only a 
smattering of HTML, even less CSS, and virtually nothing about 
client/server or node.js, etc. I don't even know JavaScript (JS), 
although I may learn since it's so pervasive. I have done simple 
programming before in FORTRAN and VBA. I currently use Windows, but have 
used Unix before. 

I wished for a newbie group on TW. But I wonder if is whether there's 
sufficient traffic to make it worthwhile. In fact, my main concern about 
learning TW is that it seems a niche tool and I'm not sure of it's long 
term prognosis. 

My primary interest in TW is a personal notebook/knowledge-base. Commerial 
Wiki's like http://www.wikidot.com/  would be 
perfect for me except data security at work prevents me from putting a lot 
of my professional notes in the cloud. Password protected TW file local to 
my encrypted hard drive is a viable solution.

To explain my wish for a newbie group, and concern that it might not work 
for TW, please see the following:

   - I learned VIM years ago and, at that time, the very active 
   "vim-beginners" group was a great way to learn practical tips that 
   eventually changed my experience of VIM from a nightmare to a dream to use. 
   The more advanced VIM groups were way over my head and talked about things 
   I wasn't interested in (developing plugins, etc.)
   - The "vim-beginners" group was a much better way to learn VIM than 
   reading the manual. At that time, the manual was about the only way to 
   learn VIM. Recently, there's been a slew of books and web sites providing 
   lots of information about learning VIM. If I was learning today, the 
   "vim-beginners" group would not be the best way to learn. 
   - Like the advanced VIM groups, this TW forum mostly talks about things 
   over my head and of no real interest to me. It's not a good way to learn TW.
   - Web searches on TW questions return a lot of dated material from TW 
   Classic, etc. It's not only hard to figure out what applies to TW5, it's 
   disconcerting to see all the really great tutorials and beginner material 
   on TW is 5-10 years old. Makes me wonder about the future of TW. 

I hope my input is helpful to your decsion.

Thx!
-- 
 -- dg 

On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 at 3:06:57 PM UTC-4, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> After a while chickens land ...
>
> As far as i can see THIS group covers EVERYTHING TiddlyWiki.
>
> The groups *TiddlyWikiDocs & TiddlyWikiDev seem very peripheral. Are they 
> NEEDED?*
>
> The flipside  is that often here dicussion is HIGHLY TECHNICAL 
> conversations that some visitor looking to be able to get a bit of software 
> to be able to write a memo to grandma would find far too much.
>
> I have a suggestion.
>
> 1 - DUMP TiddlyWikiDocs & TiddlyWikiDev
>
> 2 - START a TiddlyWikiNewbie that contains ONLY info for beginners
>
> In any case the current situation with the groups is more platitude than 
> reality. HERE is the hub. Any OTHER group should be the HUB INTRO. IMO. Get 
> rid of redundancy.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/c1a23d7a-b924-4e3c-a6d2-4806108b44dc%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[TonyM]

Mario,

I did look at your bundler plugin and I think it is great, I intend to use 
it, I expect you will hear from me later because I have some thoughts about 
fitting it into a ecosystem of sorts. An ecosystem where the need to 
differentiate between editions and Apps, or modules will become more 
important.

My argument about lego blocks is they should make life less complex for the 
new and intermediate user to get results, while allowing them ultimately to 
develop complex solutions to complex problems without becoming tiddlywiki 
experts, while at the same time developing the knowledge to become expert. 

Yes, versioning may be an issue, so I will give this some focus during the 
design process.

*Some thoughts that come to mind, a little off topic.*

A team that works well together, lifts the capabilities of all team 
members, to such a degree that that team is what rises above all other 
teams. Attempts by individuals in a team to climb to the top within a team 
only reduces the teams effectiveness. Open source collaboration between 
passionate enthusiasts turns us all into expert professionals in the long 
run.

And Mario - you are a top contributor.

Regards
Tony 


On Thursday, 7 September 2017 02:23:22 UTC+10, PMario wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 4:05:26 PM UTC+2, TonyM wrote:
>>
>> I would add to the idea of formed applications, another layer of self 
>> contained modules, as is often the outcome of a specific plugin rather than 
>> an whole edition. 
>>
>
> For me edtions and apps are the same thing.  but you are right lego 
> blocks are better, but increase the complexity.
>  
>
>> I plan to build something I call object tiddlers, and hope to create lego 
>> blocks rather than provide a lego kit for the "millennium falcon", I want 
>> to provide engines, landing gear and "nuclear power piles". So you build 
>> your spaceship, not simply ask questions or follow instructions.
>>
>
> Did you have a look at my bundler plugin 
> . IMO it could provide 
> "lego blocks", if you make the content "small enough". The main problem is, 
> to manage the versioning problems, that will come up. 
>
> have fun!
> mario
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/816d1c7f-3a3b-473f-a355-34a62941f94c%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[PMario]

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 4:05:26 PM UTC+2, TonyM wrote:
>
> I would add to the idea of formed applications, another layer of self 
> contained modules, as is often the outcome of a specific plugin rather than 
> an whole edition. 
>

For me edtions and apps are the same thing.  but you are right lego 
blocks are better, but increase the complexity.
 

> I plan to build something I call object tiddlers, and hope to create lego 
> blocks rather than provide a lego kit for the "millennium falcon", I want 
> to provide engines, landing gear and "nuclear power piles". So you build 
> your spaceship, not simply ask questions or follow instructions.
>

Did you have a look at my bundler plugin 
. IMO it could provide "lego 
blocks", if you make the content "small enough". The main problem is, to 
manage the versioning problems, that will come up. 

have fun!
mario

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/fb407a79-a6ed-4b7f-8ad6-9b3fea5f762e%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[TonyM]

I would add to the idea of formed applications, another layer of self 
contained modules, as is often the outcome of a specific plugin rather than 
an whole edition. 

I plan to build something I call object tiddlers, and hope to create lego 
blocks rather than provide a lego kit for the "millennium falcon", I want 
to provide engines, landing gear and "nuclear power piles". So you build 
your spaceship, not simply ask questions or follow instructions.

Editions and modules, or self contained plugins are the building blocks for 
a newby. By the time they get to ask questions in the existing group they 
may already know how to answer the question them-self.

We need to watch the ever present possibility of people loosing interest, 
too few people have the patience I have after 30 years of wrestling with 
Information Technology. It would be sad to find ourselves attracting and 
engaging people, for them to only give up because they hit too many 
barriers. We need to make it possible for people to build usable spaceships 
before they give up.

Regards
Tony



On Wednesday, 6 September 2017 23:05:21 UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao c pa
>
> I wrote ...
>
>> >>START a TiddlyWikiNewbie that contains ONLY info for beginners
>>
>  
> c pa replied: 
>
>> Because TiddlyWiki is such a complex and functional product, making a 
>> distinction between newbie and "not newbie" questions is very hard ...
>>
>
> I agree IF the newbie is a "customiser". Then they are on the road to 
> becoming a DIY addict like US--and need to go through the hell of it.
>
> *I was thinking more* that most "newbies" are just looking for an ALREADY 
> MADE SOLUTION. 
>
> I think its the weakest area of TiddlyWiki is that the main thing we 
> communicate to people is:  "its wonderful BUT complicated". 
>
> How about, instead? "HERE IS THE SCREENPLAY MAKER" & "THERE IS THE 
> BRILLIANT GTD SYSTEM"?
>
> I think there is a *BIG need for a Newbie Section* to deliver FORMED 
> APPLICATIONS. I think we are alienating users as we currently do it. Just 
> MO.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/4a80c2cc-b0d3-4d34-a669-6578d7ad2574%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao c pa

I wrote ...

> >>START a TiddlyWikiNewbie that contains ONLY info for beginners
>
 
c pa replied: 

> Because TiddlyWiki is such a complex and functional product, making a 
> distinction between newbie and "not newbie" questions is very hard ...
>

I agree IF the newbie is a "customiser". Then they are on the road to 
becoming a DIY addict like US--and need to go through the hell of it.

*I was thinking more* that most "newbies" are just looking for an ALREADY 
MADE SOLUTION. 

I think its the weakest area of TiddlyWiki is that the main thing we 
communicate to people is:  "its wonderful BUT complicated". 

How about, instead? "HERE IS THE SCREENPLAY MAKER" & "THERE IS THE 
BRILLIANT GTD SYSTEM"?

I think there is a *BIG need for a Newbie Section* to deliver then FORMED 
APPLICATIONS. I think we are alienating users as we currently do it. Just 
MO.

Best wishes
Josiah

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/4e8dabf2-634f-4efa-a157-b16566f063ed%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Arlen

One of the pains with StackExchange is the hoops you have to go through. I 
thought I voted already? Now I have to do it AGAIN? This process is slower 
than a snail with a heavy weight on its back :-).

Best wishes
Josiah

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/eb9bd685-7499-4891-85a8-102f578eaeff%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Arlen Beiler]

I feel like putting a plug in here for the Area51 proposal for a dedicated
TiddlyWiki Stack Exchange site. It's in the commit stage now, so all you
have to do is sign in and commit. It will help the proposal if you use the
same account you use on the rest of the stack exchange network if you have
200+ rep on another site.

https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki?referrer=kk4xS6VP59WB49QQOgt7xA2

Not to get off topic, though. Just a reminder. Keep going. But hey, that
would be one solution :)


On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 6:35 PM, 'c pa' via TiddlyWiki <
tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> >> DUMP TiddlyWikiDocs & TiddlyWikiDev
> These 2 groups experience periodic spurts of activity when clever folks
> get into really deep discussions that are off the general topic
>
> >>START a TiddlyWikiNewbie that contains ONLY info for beginners
> Because TiddlyWiki is such a complex and functional product, making a
> distinction between newbie and "not newbie" questions is very hard since
> newbies often ask questions that require a tech answer. In the process
> newbies experience expanded horizons
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/
> msgid/tiddlywiki/91edf3c1-a653-49c9-b600-4165698a87f1%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAJ1vdSQb%2BA%2BPyxpfbgRM0LvudVnYENxZgRJDMMz73nfzhqDk3w%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

['c pa' via TiddlyWiki]

>> DUMP TiddlyWikiDocs & TiddlyWikiDev
These 2 groups experience periodic spurts of activity when clever folks get 
into really deep discussions that are off the general topic

>>START a TiddlyWikiNewbie that contains ONLY info for beginners
Because TiddlyWiki is such a complex and functional product, making a 
distinction between newbie and "not newbie" questions is very hard since 
newbies often ask questions that require a tech answer. In the process 
newbies experience expanded horizons

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/91edf3c1-a653-49c9-b600-4165698a87f1%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.