[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Hans Wobbe]

Based on a cursory review of scenario, I think it can be generalized to 
Real Estate applications.  This opinion is based on my discovery that 
Agents frequently share their listings with other Agents ( even ones from 
competing Brokerages ).

It could be even more general if a Seller and several potential Buyers were 
inclined to share some of their property data.  Since my views are mostly 
Canadian, I can say that this has considerable potential in competing with 
CREA ( the Canadian Real Estate Agency that runs virtually all of the 
Canadian MLS = Multiple Listing System )

Best,
Hans

On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 1:28:20 PM UTC-4 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:

> Brewed idea has fermented into a different prototyping project.
>
> *Scenario*:
>
> Say I have two sales reps, each with his/her own TiddlyWiki running on 
> node.js
>
> They each maintain their own customer lists, but I want each sales rep to 
> have view-only privs on the other sales rep's customer list.  So that each 
> Sales rep can be a backup to the other one when a Sales rep in on vacation 
> or whatever.
>
> Each Sales rep should have a directory of his/her own customers, but also 
> have available a global directory of all customers (so merging of the 
> directories.)
>
> And those directories should provide a way to see customer details, 
> regardless of the source (Sales rep's own wiki or other sales rep's wiki.)
>
> And a way to know when something new has happened in the other wiki.
>
> All without having to learn new technical things, other than familiarizing 
> myself with basic TiddlyWiki and node.js stuff.
>
> *The current scope of naughty bits*
>
> Playing around a little, here are some of the things that will be involved:
>
>- WebServer Basic Authentication 
>, WebServer 
>Authorization , 
> WebServer 
>Parameter: credentials 
>
>- Simple ways to write protect tiddlers 
>
>- Using the read-only single tiddler view 
>
>- Symbolic Links 
>- Maybe:  This goofy approach to dynamic HTML/javascript creation in 
>an iFrame 
>
>   - A way to know about "what's new" (re customer info) in other 
>   Sales reps' tiddlywikis
>- Enhanced tiddler saving actions for a customer to update a 
>"customers list" data tiddler
>   - Each sales rep has a "customers list" tiddler, and each sales rep 
>   has a symbolic link to all other sales reps' "customers list" tiddlers; 
> so 
>   a "list of customers" tiddler brings in, formats, sorts, all of these 
> data 
>   items from all of these data tiddlers
>  - *won't be super-perfect because each tiddlywiki needs to be 
>  restarted to get the latest data tiddlers from the other tiddlywikis*
>   
> Something like that.  No fuss, no muss.  Keeping it simple.
> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 3:18:27 PM UTC-3 Charlie Veniot wrote:
>
>> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
>> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>>
>> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 
>> 2 could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
>> the tiddler.)
>>
>> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
>> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
>> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>>
>> Something like that.
>>
>> I'm not convinced it is something I can do, but I'm kind of interested in 
>> trying IF it isn't something that's already been done.
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Charlie Veniot]

Brewed idea has fermented into a different prototyping project.

*Scenario*:

Say I have two sales reps, each with his/her own TiddlyWiki running on 
node.js

They each maintain their own customer lists, but I want each sales rep to 
have view-only privs on the other sales rep's customer list.  So that each 
Sales rep can be a backup to the other one when a Sales rep in on vacation 
or whatever.

Each Sales rep should have a directory of his/her own customers, but also 
have available a global directory of all customers (so merging of the 
directories.)

And those directories should provide a way to see customer details, 
regardless of the source (Sales rep's own wiki or other sales rep's wiki.)

And a way to know when something new has happened in the other wiki.

All without having to learn new technical things, other than familiarizing 
myself with basic TiddlyWiki and node.js stuff.

*The current scope of naughty bits*

Playing around a little, here are some of the things that will be involved:

   - WebServer Basic Authentication 
   , WebServer 
   Authorization , WebServer 
   Parameter: credentials 
   
   - Simple ways to write protect tiddlers 
   
   - Using the read-only single tiddler view 
   
   - Symbolic Links 
   - Maybe:  This goofy approach to dynamic HTML/javascript creation in an 
   iFrame 
   
  - A way to know about "what's new" (re customer info) in other Sales 
  reps' tiddlywikis
   - Enhanced tiddler saving actions for a customer to update a "customers 
   list" data tiddler
  - Each sales rep has a "customers list" tiddler, and each sales rep 
  has a symbolic link to all other sales reps' "customers list" tiddlers; 
so 
  a "list of customers" tiddler brings in, formats, sorts, all of these 
data 
  items from all of these data tiddlers
 - *won't be super-perfect because each tiddlywiki needs to be 
 restarted to get the latest data tiddlers from the other tiddlywikis*
  
Something like that.  No fuss, no muss.  Keeping it simple.
On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 3:18:27 PM UTC-3 Charlie Veniot wrote:

> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>
> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 2 
> could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
> the tiddler.)
>
> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>
> Something like that.
>
> I'm not convinced it is something I can do, but I'm kind of interested in 
> trying IF it isn't something that's already been done.
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[TW Tones]

If node is set to 0.0.0.0 the IP address becomes server on the LAN at the 
current (or all) IP address(s) of the device.

On windows you can actually configure additional IP addresses on your 
desktop, and then rather than use 0.0.0.0 use the specific IP address. I 
have done this on bob but got it mixed up a few occasions. The smart trick 
is to assign an additional IP address outside the dhcp range and host your 
server on that but from your desktop. One day you may move your server and 
the additional IP address to another computer, say onto a NAS, server or 
always on computer - even a raspberry Pi.

Another nice tip is you can use any 127.X.X.X address on the local host as 
well so you keep 127.0.0.1 free for other services.

I can elaborate, I am just hinting here.

Regards
Tones
On Thursday, 19 August 2021 at 02:17:10 UTC+10 Stobot wrote:

> Ah! I knew it must be something easy - thanks for that! Lots to read up on 
> :)
>
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 11:52:06 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:
>
>> HI,
>> The TiddlyWiki --listen command has a lot of additional parameters. See: 
>> https://tiddlywiki.com/#ListenCommand
>>
>> tiddlywiki "path/to/wiki" --listen host=10.1.x.x   should do the trick. 
>>
>> -m
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 5:34:19 PM UTC+2 Stobot wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the continued conversation @pmario,
>>>
>>> So I'm aware of my IP and am fine with the ip:port need (as that's how 
>>> it's done in BOB also), but the piece I'm stuck on is how to get node to 
>>> serve it on my local IP address (though this is really not my area of 
>>> expertise, so could be way over-complicating it). For example, to start 
>>> each day I run this from the command line:
>>>
>>> tiddlywiki "C:\Users\...\wikiname" --listen
>>>
>>> and then it says "Serving on http://127.0.0.1:8080; in the console. How 
>>> do I get it / change the command I'm running to put it at a 10.1.X.X 
>>> address so that others on my LAN can get to it. It's not like they can 
>>> enter my 127.0.0.1:8080 address from their computer and get to my wiki 
>>> - right?
>>>
>>> note that I don't have admin access at this time (for IIS etc), can 
>>> sometimes get it temporarily, but let's just call it a "difficult" path, 
>>> though maybe not impossible. I like the domain name vs. IP though :)
>>> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:47:39 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:
>>>
 On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 4:45:31 PM UTC+2 PMario wrote:

 If you do have admin rights on your PC you can also define a "local 
> domain name" in the windows hosts file, if you have a fixed IP address. 
> eg: http://.lan:8080  .. 
>

 Oh ... I did forget. If others also need to know the local domain name, 
 they will also have to adjust their hosts file. Which needs admin rights.

 -m

>>>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Stobot]

Ah! I knew it must be something easy - thanks for that! Lots to read up on 
:)

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 11:52:06 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:

> HI,
> The TiddlyWiki --listen command has a lot of additional parameters. See: 
> https://tiddlywiki.com/#ListenCommand
>
> tiddlywiki "path/to/wiki" --listen host=10.1.x.x   should do the trick. 
>
> -m
>
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 5:34:19 PM UTC+2 Stobot wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the continued conversation @pmario,
>>
>> So I'm aware of my IP and am fine with the ip:port need (as that's how 
>> it's done in BOB also), but the piece I'm stuck on is how to get node to 
>> serve it on my local IP address (though this is really not my area of 
>> expertise, so could be way over-complicating it). For example, to start 
>> each day I run this from the command line:
>>
>> tiddlywiki "C:\Users\...\wikiname" --listen
>>
>> and then it says "Serving on http://127.0.0.1:8080; in the console. How 
>> do I get it / change the command I'm running to put it at a 10.1.X.X 
>> address so that others on my LAN can get to it. It's not like they can 
>> enter my 127.0.0.1:8080 address from their computer and get to my wiki - 
>> right?
>>
>> note that I don't have admin access at this time (for IIS etc), can 
>> sometimes get it temporarily, but let's just call it a "difficult" path, 
>> though maybe not impossible. I like the domain name vs. IP though :)
>> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:47:39 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 4:45:31 PM UTC+2 PMario wrote:
>>>
>>> If you do have admin rights on your PC you can also define a "local 
 domain name" in the windows hosts file, if you have a fixed IP address. 
 eg: http://.lan:8080  .. 

>>>
>>> Oh ... I did forget. If others also need to know the local domain name, 
>>> they will also have to adjust their hosts file. Which needs admin rights.
>>>
>>> -m
>>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[PMario]

HI,
The TiddlyWiki --listen command has a lot of additional parameters. See: 
https://tiddlywiki.com/#ListenCommand

tiddlywiki "path/to/wiki" --listen host=10.1.x.x   should do the trick. 

-m

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 5:34:19 PM UTC+2 Stobot wrote:

> Thanks for the continued conversation @pmario,
>
> So I'm aware of my IP and am fine with the ip:port need (as that's how 
> it's done in BOB also), but the piece I'm stuck on is how to get node to 
> serve it on my local IP address (though this is really not my area of 
> expertise, so could be way over-complicating it). For example, to start 
> each day I run this from the command line:
>
> tiddlywiki "C:\Users\...\wikiname" --listen
>
> and then it says "Serving on http://127.0.0.1:8080; in the console. How 
> do I get it / change the command I'm running to put it at a 10.1.X.X 
> address so that others on my LAN can get to it. It's not like they can 
> enter my 127.0.0.1:8080 address from their computer and get to my wiki - 
> right?
>
> note that I don't have admin access at this time (for IIS etc), can 
> sometimes get it temporarily, but let's just call it a "difficult" path, 
> though maybe not impossible. I like the domain name vs. IP though :)
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:47:39 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 4:45:31 PM UTC+2 PMario wrote:
>>
>> If you do have admin rights on your PC you can also define a "local 
>>> domain name" in the windows hosts file, if you have a fixed IP address. 
>>> eg: http://.lan:8080  .. 
>>>
>>
>> Oh ... I did forget. If others also need to know the local domain name, 
>> they will also have to adjust their hosts file. Which needs admin rights.
>>
>> -m
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Stobot]

Thanks for the continued conversation @pmario,

So I'm aware of my IP and am fine with the ip:port need (as that's how it's 
done in BOB also), but the piece I'm stuck on is how to get node to serve 
it on my local IP address (though this is really not my area of expertise, 
so could be way over-complicating it). For example, to start each day I run 
this from the command line:

tiddlywiki "C:\Users\...\wikiname" --listen

and then it says "Serving on http://127.0.0.1:8080; in the console. How do 
I get it / change the command I'm running to put it at a 10.1.X.X address 
so that others on my LAN can get to it. It's not like they can enter my 
127.0.0.1:8080 address from their computer and get to my wiki - right?

note that I don't have admin access at this time (for IIS etc), can 
sometimes get it temporarily, but let's just call it a "difficult" path, 
though maybe not impossible. I like the domain name vs. IP though :)
On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:47:39 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 4:45:31 PM UTC+2 PMario wrote:
>
> If you do have admin rights on your PC you can also define a "local domain 
>> name" in the windows hosts file, if you have a fixed IP address. 
>> eg: http://.lan:8080  .. 
>>
>
> Oh ... I did forget. If others also need to know the local domain name, 
> they will also have to adjust their hosts file. Which needs admin rights.
>
> -m
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[PMario]

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 4:45:31 PM UTC+2 PMario wrote:

If you do have admin rights on your PC you can also define a "local domain 
> name" in the windows hosts file, if you have a fixed IP address. 
> eg: http://.lan:8080  .. 
>

Oh ... I did forget. If others also need to know the local domain name, 
they will also have to adjust their hosts file. Which needs admin rights.

-m

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[PMario]

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 4:01:11 PM UTC+2 Stobot wrote:

I start node each morning and it gives me the standard Serving on 
> http://127.0.0.1:8080 message, so I'd have to figure out how to get that 
> to a 10.1.X.X situation for LAN usage to multi-serve right? In BOB there's 
> some buttons to press, so the actual method of how to do this in base-node 
> is something I'm not aware of.  
>

On windows there are even better options. You can use IIS Internet 
Information Service to run your node server as a service on your computer. 
So as soon as it is switched on the server will be active. 

BUT ... In an enterprise environment you will probably _not_ be allowed to 
start IIS as a service on your PC ... 

If you do have admin rights on your PC you can also define a "local domain 
name" in the windows hosts file, if you have a fixed IP address. 
eg: http://.lan:8080  .. 
The port will need to be there :/ ... BUT if you would have access to IIS 
you could start it at port 80. So the address would be http://.lan 
... Which imo is much cooler than http:/10.1.0.10:8080  

just my thoughts
-mario

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[PMario]

In powershell you can try 

ipconfig
or
Get-NetIPAddress | Format-Table

Your PC address will be the one with 10.1.x.x  in it. Mainly the one which 
comes form a Dhcp server

-m

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 4:22:16 PM UTC+2 Stobot wrote:

> Windows 10
>
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:16:39 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> Which OS do you have? 
>> -mario
>>
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Stobot]

Windows 10

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:16:39 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:

> Hi,
> Which OS do you have? 
> -mario
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[PMario]

Hi,
Which OS do you have? 
-mario


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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Stobot]

Interesting - I greatly appreciate the input/detail @pmario! 

In many (though not all) of my intended use cases, restricting others to 
*only add* operations (no changes) via UI trickery would be doable. My 
use-cases usually involve *me* setting something up a list of business 
decisions for review, and have others comment / approve / rate etc, which 
I'd usually store in the background as system tiddlers incorporating user 
names. In such a worflow the "conflicts" are not a real issue, and I can 
even handle the timing lag of it being propogated to others in most cases, 
though reducing that would be ideal.

I start node each morning and it gives me the standard Serving on 
http://127.0.0.1:8080 message, so I'd have to figure out how to get that to 
a 10.1.X.X situation for LAN usage to multi-serve right? In BOB there's 
some buttons to press, so the actual method of how to do this in base-node 
is something I'm not aware of.  

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 8:12:07 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:

> Followup,
>
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:03:53 PM UTC+2 PMario wrote:
> ... 
>
>> The function is called "syncFromServer". So if you open 1 wiki in 2 tabs 
>> of a browser you will informed, if someone opened a tiddler. A _red_ "draft 
>> of ... by " button will be shown in the bottom of the wiki window. 
>> The name will be only there if the username is set in the ConfigTiddler!
>>
>
> The server sent event plugin triggers the exact same mechanism. So it's 
> possible to create instant feedback without the need to modify core 
> functions. 
> The disadvantage here is, that there is quite some overhead over the wire. 
> The message flow is like this: 
>
>  1) Server informs the client about new data
>  2) Client reads all the tiddler meta-data without the text field
>  3) Client compares all titles to see if something changed.
>  4) If something changed the client reads ALL tiddlers including text 
> content
>  5) Client saves new data
>  6) TW UI shows new data.
>
> This workflow is OK for the current client implementation, since it runs 
> on a client-side timer. But the with SSE it could be like this: 
>
>  - 1) Server sends the changed data to the client
>  - 2) Client saves them
>   3) TW UI shows new data
>
> As you can see, there is a lot of room for improvements. Especially the 
> "Conflict Free Replicated Datatype" that Joshua mentioned would be an 
> interesting option here. 
>
> -mario
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[PMario]

Followup,

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:03:53 PM UTC+2 PMario wrote:
... 

> The function is called "syncFromServer". So if you open 1 wiki in 2 tabs 
> of a browser you will informed, if someone opened a tiddler. A _red_ "draft 
> of ... by " button will be shown in the bottom of the wiki window. 
> The name will be only there if the username is set in the ConfigTiddler!
>

The server sent event plugin triggers the exact same mechanism. So it's 
possible to create instant feedback without the need to modify core 
functions. 
The disadvantage here is, that there is quite some overhead over the wire. 
The message flow is like this: 

 1) Server informs the client about new data
 2) Client reads all the tiddler meta-data without the text field
 3) Client compares all titles to see if something changed.
 4) If something changed the client reads ALL tiddlers including text 
content
 5) Client saves new data
 6) TW UI shows new data.

This workflow is OK for the current client implementation, since it runs on 
a client-side timer. But the with SSE it could be like this: 

 - 1) Server sends the changed data to the client
 - 2) Client saves them
  3) TW UI shows new data

As you can see, there is a lot of room for improvements. Especially the 
"Conflict Free Replicated Datatype" that Joshua mentioned would be an 
interesting option here. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[PMario]

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 1:30:01 PM UTC+2 Stobot wrote:

> Ok, think my post went somewhere else (sorry if someone got that directly)


It did land in my PM inbox. .. No problem :)
 

> Newbie question for Charlie or others: How did you get Node.js version to 
> serve to multiple people? I use Node.js for my personal stuff and BOB for 
> multi-user but I have a lot of issues with BOB during 
> disconnects/reconnects that I don't have with "normal" node. 
>

I'm not mentioned directly, but I'll post anyway. ... The nodejs server 
could always serve the wiki to multiple people. ... BUT you shouldn't 
modify it at the same time. 

Arlen did create a "server sent events" plugin, that doesn't need 
web-sockets, but it is "unidirectional". So it allows the server to send 
messages to the client in 1 way only. The advantage is, that it is simpler 
to implement. .. 

If TW runs with nodejs, there is a function in the client that reads all 
tiddler-titles from the server every minute. If there was a change that the 
server knows about, it will load "all-tiddlers" from the server, including 
new ones. 

The function is called "syncFromServer". So if you open 1 wiki in 2 tabs of 
a browser you will informed, if someone opened a tiddler. A _red_ "draft of 
... by " button will be shown in the bottom of the wiki window. The 
name will be only there if the username is set in the ConfigTiddler!

The maximum delay is 1 minute. This function is in there for quite some 
time already. 

The problem is, that 1 minute delay can be way to long, if 2 persons want 
to edit at the same time. ... Server-sent-events works almost instantly. 
... BUT it has some flaws at the moment, that I did describe in the other 
post. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Stobot]

Ok, think my post went somewhere else (sorry if someone got that directly)

Newbie question for Charlie or others: How did you get Node.js version to 
serve to multiple people? I use Node.js for my personal stuff and BOB for 
multi-user but I have a lot of issues with BOB during 
disconnects/reconnects that I don't have with "normal" node. 

Joshua: I eagerly wait to hear about your multi-user solution coming soon! 
As I mentioned to Boris and others when the open collective first started, 
I was happy to support the collective generally, but I would be most 
inclined to donate around future multi-user development, as that opens up a 
lot of things for me. Let me know if I can help in any way!

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 4:50:36 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 4:27:18 AM UTC+2 joshua@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
> Aside: I also noticed that if you "Close" an open draft tiddler with the 
>> `X` button, that it deletes the draft from the wiki, and this really 
>> disturbs drafts from other users that are being edited live note to 
>> self to file a bug report on that.
>>
>
> The (x) button top right at the edit tiddler toolbar is the "discard 
> changes" button. It needs to delete the draft tiddler. This behaviour can't 
> be changed. 
>
> If you click the x-button in the right sidebar : Open tab it only removes 
> the tiddler from the story river. 
>
> So plugins that want to implement a different behaviour have to replace 
> the cancel button depending on the user name. 
> So if the user-name in the wiki is the same as the user-name shown in the 
> draft tiddler they need to see the "core cancel button". ... 
> If it is different they need to see the plugin-cancel-button. 
>
> Replacing the core button, without modifying it is easy: Set $:/
> config/EditToolbarButtons/Visibility/$:/core/ui/Buttons/cancel to 
> "hidden" and it will be gone. 
>
> The new "Remove draft from story river" button can have a similar icon but 
> only removes the tiddler from the story river. 
>
> The same function from "sidebar : Open" can be used. Creating a new 
> plugin-cancel-button is simple just tag it $:/tags/EditToolbar 
>
> -mario
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[PMario]

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 4:27:18 AM UTC+2 joshua@gmail.com 
wrote:

Aside: I also noticed that if you "Close" an open draft tiddler with the 
> `X` button, that it deletes the draft from the wiki, and this really 
> disturbs drafts from other users that are being edited live note to 
> self to file a bug report on that.
>

The (x) button top right at the edit tiddler toolbar is the "discard 
changes" button. It needs to delete the draft tiddler. This behaviour can't 
be changed. 

If you click the x-button in the right sidebar : Open tab it only removes 
the tiddler from the story river. 

So plugins that want to implement a different behaviour have to replace the 
cancel button depending on the user name. 
So if the user-name in the wiki is the same as the user-name shown in the 
draft tiddler they need to see the "core cancel button". ... 
If it is different they need to see the plugin-cancel-button. 

Replacing the core button, without modifying it is easy: Set $:/
config/EditToolbarButtons/Visibility/$:/core/ui/Buttons/cancel to "hidden" 
and it will be gone. 

The new "Remove draft from story river" button can have a similar icon but 
only removes the tiddler from the story river. 

The same function from "sidebar : Open" can be used. Creating a new 
plugin-cancel-button is simple just tag it $:/tags/EditToolbar 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Joshua Fontany]

As Saq mentioned, I am very close to a public beta of a real-time "live 
multiplayer" syncer build on top of TiddlyWeb/TiddlyWiki5 Server + 
Websockets + Yjs (Conflict Free Replicated Datatype library).

I took a lot of inspiration from Jed Carty's Bob Server setup, but so many 
of the internal changed during the Yjs integration that it has become its 
own thing. I need to get to a stable point in the refactoring to start 
sharing my progress.

Aside: I also noticed that if you "Close" an open draft tiddler with the 
`X` button, that it deletes the draft from the wiki, and this really 
disturbs drafts from other users that are being edited live note to 
self to file a bug report on that.

Best,
Joshua Fontany

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 2:52:06 PM UTC-7 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:

> I had not noticed cycled refreshing.  Thanks!  I must watch those 
> TiddlyWikis again.
>
> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 5:07:31 PM UTC-3 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Charlie,
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 8:18:27 PM UTC+2 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
>>> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>>>
>>> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 
>>> 2 could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
>>> the tiddler.)
>>>
>>
>> I think most of the basics for this are in place and just needs some 
>> cobbling together.
>>
>> Note that the nodejs server does synchronize tiddlers from client to 
>> server,  and from server to client. I believe the default refresh interval 
>> to get new changes from the server is about a minute if my memory serves me 
>> well.
>>
>>  If User 1 is editing a tiddler, that creates a Draft tiddler that will 
>> get sync'ed to User 2's wiki. This would appear as a red draft indicator at 
>> the bottom of the screen, though it could easily be used to display a 
>> message on the tiddler in question as well.
>>  
>>
>>> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
>>> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
>>> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>>>
>>
>> The new tiddler should automatically get sync'ed from the server to User 
>> 2's wiki without need for a reload.
>>
>> Note that there is work underway on making the server to client sync 
>> instantaneous:
>> - https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5279
>> - https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5882
>>
>> Also, Joshua is doing some interesting work on implementing a real time 
>> multi-user feature.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Saq
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Charlie Veniot]

I had not noticed cycled refreshing.  Thanks!  I must watch those 
TiddlyWikis again.

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 5:07:31 PM UTC-3 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi Charlie,
>
> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 8:18:27 PM UTC+2 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
>> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>>
>> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 
>> 2 could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
>> the tiddler.)
>>
>
> I think most of the basics for this are in place and just needs some 
> cobbling together.
>
> Note that the nodejs server does synchronize tiddlers from client to 
> server,  and from server to client. I believe the default refresh interval 
> to get new changes from the server is about a minute if my memory serves me 
> well.
>
>  If User 1 is editing a tiddler, that creates a Draft tiddler that will 
> get sync'ed to User 2's wiki. This would appear as a red draft indicator at 
> the bottom of the screen, though it could easily be used to display a 
> message on the tiddler in question as well.
>  
>
>> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
>> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
>> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>>
>
> The new tiddler should automatically get sync'ed from the server to User 
> 2's wiki without need for a reload.
>
> Note that there is work underway on making the server to client sync 
> instantaneous:
> - https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5279
> - https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5882
>
> Also, Joshua is doing some interesting work on implementing a real time 
> multi-user feature.
>
> Regards,
> Saq
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[PMario]

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 8:18:27 PM UTC+2 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:

> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>
> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 2 
> could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
> the tiddler.)
>
> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>

There is a "server sent events" plugin from Arlen 
https://github.com/twcloud/tiddlyweb-sse which can do exactly that. It's 
much easier to implement than sockets and it works well. 
There are some hickups, because you can see tiddlers that are edited by 
others. They are shown as a "draft of ... by " at the bottom of the 
screen. You can also open them and you will see live editing ... BUT you 
are not allowed to change something on your side :/ ... AND you have to 
close the draft with the Open sidebar X button. Otherwise you will disturb 
the other user. 

-mario


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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Saq Imtiaz]

Hi Charlie,

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 8:18:27 PM UTC+2 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:

> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>
> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 2 
> could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
> the tiddler.)
>

I think most of the basics for this are in place and just needs some 
cobbling together.

Note that the nodejs server does synchronize tiddlers from client to 
server,  and from server to client. I believe the default refresh interval 
to get new changes from the server is about a minute if my memory serves me 
well.

 If User 1 is editing a tiddler, that creates a Draft tiddler that will get 
sync'ed to User 2's wiki. This would appear as a red draft indicator at the 
bottom of the screen, though it could easily be used to display a message 
on the tiddler in question as well.
 

> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>

The new tiddler should automatically get sync'ed from the server to User 
2's wiki without need for a reload.

Note that there is work underway on making the server to client sync 
instantaneous:
- https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5279
- https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5882

Also, Joshua is doing some interesting work on implementing a real time 
multi-user feature.

Regards,
Saq

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Re: [tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Finn Lancaster]

Sounds good! You’ll probably need to add code to the TW Node server file,
and can handle the rest through a plug-in. I have a few NodeJS projects
that may help you, if you’d like, too, I can send you their links.

If we are going to collaborate for this, it’s probably easiest to make a
GitHub repo for it. Would you like to create the repo, or I’d be happy too,
as well.

On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 3:28 PM Charlie Veniot  wrote:

> Good stuff for later.  Thank-you !
>
> I'm still very new to node.js and TiddlyWiki on node.js (let's say "white
> belt") and I consider myself maybe an "orange belt" re TiddlyWiki.
>
> Just to prototype, I'm going to go with some old-school thinking, just as
> a way to familiarise myself (a bit of a "brain-age exercise") with just the
> basics and see how far I can push those basics with a little help from
> copy/paste/tweak javascript code.  Without typing any javascript code
> (since I'm no fan of the stuff.)
>
> Then I can pass the end-result onward for you to socket.io-cize the thing.
>
> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 3:49:27 PM UTC-3 flanc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure how familiar you are with Node/Socket.io, so if this is a
>> bit confusing for you, just ask me for clarification. I am also always
>> willing to collaborate on great ideas, if you would like to build something
>> like this and need help, I'd be happy to help via GitHub Collaboration!
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 2:47:15 PM UTC-4 Finn Lancaster wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie,
>>>
>>> One way to do this (since you are using node), is to implement Socket.io
>>> into the Wiki. Each time the edit button is pressed, tell Socket.io via
>>> socket.emit to in turn socket.emit to each client (the first
>>> socket.emit would contain JSON containing the name of the editor and the
>>> tiddler). With socket.io, too, on each client instance, just add a
>>> listener for a specific event using socket.on... , and have it display
>>> a simple message such as "name is editing tiddler such-and-such"
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 2:18:27 PM UTC-4 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently
 viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.

 Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if
 User 2 could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is
 editing the tiddler.)

 And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a
 particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User
 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.

 Something like that.

 I'm not convinced it is something I can do, but I'm kind of interested
 in trying IF it isn't something that's already been done.

>>> --
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> 
> .
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Charlie Veniot]

Good stuff for later.  Thank-you !

I'm still very new to node.js and TiddlyWiki on node.js (let's say "white 
belt") and I consider myself maybe an "orange belt" re TiddlyWiki.

Just to prototype, I'm going to go with some old-school thinking, just as a 
way to familiarise myself (a bit of a "brain-age exercise") with just the 
basics and see how far I can push those basics with a little help from 
copy/paste/tweak javascript code.  Without typing any javascript code 
(since I'm no fan of the stuff.)

Then I can pass the end-result onward for you to socket.io-cize the thing.

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 3:49:27 PM UTC-3 flanc...@gmail.com wrote:

> I'm not sure how familiar you are with Node/Socket.io, so if this is a bit 
> confusing for you, just ask me for clarification. I am also always willing 
> to collaborate on great ideas, if you would like to build something like 
> this and need help, I'd be happy to help via GitHub Collaboration!
>
> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 2:47:15 PM UTC-4 Finn Lancaster wrote:
>
>> Charlie, 
>>
>> One way to do this (since you are using node), is to implement Socket.io 
>> into the Wiki. Each time the edit button is pressed, tell Socket.io via 
>> socket.emit to in turn socket.emit to each client (the first socket.emit 
>> would contain JSON containing the name of the editor and the tiddler). With 
>> socket.io, too, on each client instance, just add a listener for a 
>> specific event using socket.on... , and have it display a simple message 
>> such as "name is editing tiddler such-and-such"
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 2:18:27 PM UTC-4 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
>>> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>>>
>>> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 
>>> 2 could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
>>> the tiddler.)
>>>
>>> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
>>> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
>>> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>>>
>>> Something like that.
>>>
>>> I'm not convinced it is something I can do, but I'm kind of interested 
>>> in trying IF it isn't something that's already been done.
>>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Finn Lancaster]

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Node/Socket.io, so if this is a bit 
confusing for you, just ask me for clarification. I am also always willing 
to collaborate on great ideas, if you would like to build something like 
this and need help, I'd be happy to help via GitHub Collaboration!

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 2:47:15 PM UTC-4 Finn Lancaster wrote:

> Charlie, 
>
> One way to do this (since you are using node), is to implement Socket.io 
> into the Wiki. Each time the edit button is pressed, tell Socket.io via 
> socket.emit to in turn socket.emit to each client (the first socket.emit 
> would contain JSON containing the name of the editor and the tiddler). With 
> socket.io, too, on each client instance, just add a listener for a 
> specific event using socket.on... , and have it display a simple message 
> such as "name is editing tiddler such-and-such"
>
> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 2:18:27 PM UTC-4 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
>> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>>
>> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 
>> 2 could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
>> the tiddler.)
>>
>> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
>> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
>> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>>
>> Something like that.
>>
>> I'm not convinced it is something I can do, but I'm kind of interested in 
>> trying IF it isn't something that's already been done.
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: A brewing idea: TiddlyWiki on node.js: check for changes

[Finn Lancaster]

Charlie, 

One way to do this (since you are using node), is to implement Socket.io 
into the Wiki. Each time the edit button is pressed, tell Socket.io via 
socket.emit to in turn socket.emit to each client (the first socket.emit 
would contain JSON containing the name of the editor and the tiddler). With 
socket.io, too, on each client instance, just add a listener for a specific 
event using socket.on... , and have it display a simple message such as 
"name is editing tiddler such-and-such"

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 at 2:18:27 PM UTC-4 cj.v...@gmail.com wrote:

> Say I have a TiddlyWiki running on node.js, and two people currently 
> viewing the same TiddlyWiki in their browsers.
>
> Say User 1 is editing a tiddler.  I'm thinking it would be cool if  User 2 
> could know that User 1 is editing the tiddler (or that anybody is editing 
> the tiddler.)
>
> And/or, it would be cool if User 2 can get a notification that a 
> particular tiddler has changed (because of User 1's editing), and that User 
> 2 should refresh the browser to get that change if he/she wants it.
>
> Something like that.
>
> I'm not convinced it is something I can do, but I'm kind of interested in 
> trying IF it isn't something that's already been done.
>

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