Re: [tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Greg Molyneux]

I just tried rQuickTid: it is SO CLOSE!

In this one extension, you can very quickly create a new tiddler, with the
first two lines being title, and tags (enclosed in [[]] for multi-word
tags) respectively.  The third line on is the content of the tiddler, and
behaves like regular tiddler entry, markdown and all.

This solution doesn't completely remove the mouse click, keyboard entry,
mouse click tango that Mark S. mentioned some ways up this discussion, but
it DRAMATICALLY cuts down on the problem.

Using this code as a starting point, and adding the capability of the
plugin to detect a delimiter ("-NewTiddler-" for example) in the
text, would make this plugin nearly perfect.  One could then start with the
title and tag field lines, type the tiddler content underneath, insert a
delimiter line (preferably with a specific keystroke), then start new title
and tag field lines, and enter the text for a 2nd tiddler.  Rinse and
repeat until the note taking session is over, and click one of the "add
tiddler" button options in the note window, and have all the newly entered
tiddlers parsed, created, and related as appropriate.

The only thing that would make this plugin better (besides what's described
above) would be the ability to customize the fields (aside from title and
tag) that can be inserted for each tiddler.

Thanks to Mat (The TWaddler) for it's creation, Greg D for finding it, HC
Haase for mentioning it, Dave for indexing it on his fantastic toolmap, and
everyone in the original discussion of the plugin for helping it progress.
I'd love to see someone with more talent than I possess to pick this thing
up and flesh it out as described above.


On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 5:11 AM Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/ <
giff...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for alerting me to rQuickTid. I hadn't seen that variation. I just
> added it to the TiddlyWiki toolmap. I hope you use that to help you with
> yout digging
>
> https://dynalist.io/d/zUP-nIWu2FFoXH-oM7L7d9DM
>
> On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 11:21:33 PM UTC-6, Greg Davis wrote:
>>
>> Looked through some of my old notes and think I found "them".
>> FastNewTiddler which seemed to evolve into QuickTid which became rQuickTid.
>> Search on those names and you find a couple dozen references.
>>
>> Don't know their current status or if they are still compatible.
>>
>> [TW5 Workflow] The Stealth NewHere Method! PLEASE READ -
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/Xm5SsHCer6E/IGdHpq5fp_gJ
>>
>> Presenting: QuickTid -
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/05hAZCr-k-w/Qq4zuE4WIAAJ
>>
>> Presenting: rQuickTid - attention-free note taking -
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/ZYg14WX-1mE/i1g-hOfUAgAJ
>>
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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/]

Thanks for alerting me to rQuickTid. I hadn't seen that variation. I just 
added it to the TiddlyWiki toolmap. I hope you use that to help you with 
yout digging

https://dynalist.io/d/zUP-nIWu2FFoXH-oM7L7d9DM

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 11:21:33 PM UTC-6, Greg Davis wrote:
>
> Looked through some of my old notes and think I found "them". 
> FastNewTiddler which seemed to evolve into QuickTid which became rQuickTid. 
> Search on those names and you find a couple dozen references.
>
> Don't know their current status or if they are still compatible.
>
> [TW5 Workflow] The Stealth NewHere Method! PLEASE READ - 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/Xm5SsHCer6E/IGdHpq5fp_gJ
>
> Presenting: QuickTid - 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/05hAZCr-k-w/Qq4zuE4WIAAJ
>
> Presenting: rQuickTid - attention-free note taking - 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/ZYg14WX-1mE/i1g-hOfUAgAJ
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Greg Molyneux]

Greg D:  Thank you for digging into this, I'll check them out and see what
shakes loose.


On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 9:21 PM Greg Davis  wrote:

> Looked through some of my old notes and think I found "them".
> FastNewTiddler which seemed to evolve into QuickTid which became rQuickTid.
> Search on those names and you find a couple dozen references.
>
> Don't know their current status or if they are still compatible.
>
> [TW5 Workflow] The Stealth NewHere Method! PLEASE READ -
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/Xm5SsHCer6E/IGdHpq5fp_gJ
>
> Presenting: QuickTid -
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/05hAZCr-k-w/Qq4zuE4WIAAJ
>
> Presenting: rQuickTid - attention-free note taking -
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/ZYg14WX-1mE/i1g-hOfUAgAJ
>
> --
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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Greg Davis]

Looked through some of my old notes and think I found "them". 
FastNewTiddler which seemed to evolve into QuickTid which became rQuickTid. 
Search on those names and you find a couple dozen references.

Don't know their current status or if they are still compatible.

[TW5 Workflow] The Stealth NewHere Method! PLEASE READ - 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/Xm5SsHCer6E/IGdHpq5fp_gJ

Presenting: QuickTid - 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/05hAZCr-k-w/Qq4zuE4WIAAJ

Presenting: rQuickTid - attention-free note taking - 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/ZYg14WX-1mE/i1g-hOfUAgAJ

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Greg Molyneux]

TonyM:  Yep, it should be pretty easy to try out, I understand it can be 
installed as a plugin also, but the exe seems a much simpler approach.

HC: I'll check around and see if I can find it, thanks.  It'd be a start 
anyway.


On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 1:55:09 AM UTC-8, HC Haase wrote:
>
> @Greg Molyneux
>
> There was a plugin  that had some of the functionality. However I can't 
> remember the name. something like fast note /qiuck note ore someting.
>
> When you created a new tiddler you was presented with one input field. the 
> first line of the field was the title, the second tags separated by comma, 
> the third tiddler body. But It was only one text field where you could just 
> use up/down to navigate.
>

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[HC Haase]

@Greg Molyneux

There was a plugin  that had some of the functionality. However I can't 
remember the name. something like fast note /qiuck note ore someting.

When you created a new tiddler you was presented with one input field. the 
first line of the field was the title, the second tags separated by comma, 
the third tiddler body. But It was only one text field where you could just 
use up/down to navigate.

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[TonyM]

Greg,

Bob has a single exe install and run, like othere servers it is based on node 
and maintains each tiddler in its own file.

Regards
Tony

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Re: [tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Greg Molyneux]

Very cool, I'll dig through it when I get a chance.  It's always
interesting to see how different people solve similar problems.

thanks,
Greg

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 12:53 PM Dave  wrote:

> I'll attach the file here.
>
> Note: this is an adaptation of an ancient bash file for a "file per todo
> system" I used to use, and I honestly am not totally sure of the logic of
> everything in it.
>
> The only comment I added now was the one about the date format for TW.
>
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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Dave]

I'll attach the file here.

Note: this is an adaptation of an ancient bash file for a "file per todo 
system" I used to use, and I honestly am not totally sure of the logic of 
everything in it.

The only comment I added now was the one about the date format for TW.

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#! /bin/bash
#script to quicklywrite down a note & save to a text file using first line as title, by Dave Parker
# /home/david/Dropbox/scripts/yad/newNote.sh

PARG=$@
[[ $PARG = "" ]] && PARG=""
cr="
"
[[ $PARG == ..* ]] && PARG2="${cr}${PARG}"
[[ $PARG == ..* ]] && PARG=$PARG2
echo """$PARG""" > /tmp/testnotes2.txt
echo "" > /tmp/duedate.txt

filepath="/home/david/SyncthingFolders/Bob/TiddlyWiki5/Wikis/BobWiki/tiddlers/"
filepath2="/home/david/SyncthingFolders/Bob/TiddlyWiki5/Wikis/BobWiki/"
if [ ! -d "$filepath" ]; then 
echo no plug-in path here
filepath="/home/david/SyncthingFolders/Bob/IndexWiki/tiddlers/"
filepath2="/home/david/SyncthingFolders/Bob/IndexWiki/"
fi
scriptpath="/home/david/Dropbox/scripts/"
if [ ! -d "$scriptpath" ]; then 
echo no dropbox path here
scriptpath="/home/david/SyncthingFolders/allScripts/"
fi



date=`date "+%Y%0m%0d"`
longdate=`date -u "+%Y%m%d%H%M%5N"`; # <-- this is important for getting the TW date format right
marker=""
yad --text="new note" --timeout=1 &

${scriptpath}bash/bringAbove.sh "NewTiddler" "home" & 
echo $PARG | yad --text-info --show-uri --back=#456787 --fore=white --always-print-result --width=600 --height=500 --center --wrap --name="NewTiddler" --window-icon="text-editor" --title=$"NewTiddler" --button="gtk-save:0" --button="gtk-open:2" --button="gtk-close:1" --editable --filename=/tmp/testnotes2.txt > /tmp/testnotes.txt

marker=`echo $?`
cat /tmp/testnotes.txt > /tmp/append.txt

echo the marker is $marker
if [[ $marker -eq 0 ]]
then

#get first line of file for name
firstline=`head -1 /tmp/testnotes.txt`
firstline2=`echo $firstline | awk '{gsub(/:/,".");print}'`

#put name onto path of where you store your notes
fullname="${filepath}$firstline2.tid" && ENAME="[[$firstline]]"
if [ -e """$fullname""" ]
then
echo "$cr--$date : $cr" > /tmp/append.txt
cat /tmp/testnotes.txt >> /tmp/append.txt

fi

cat /tmp/append.txt >> """$fullname"""	
echo where? : """$fullname"""	

fi 

#get the word "title:" added to the beginning of first line
sed -i '1s/^/title: /' """$fullname"""	

#add due date if it exists
FILE=/tmp/duedate.txt
if grep -q due "$FILE"; then myduedate=$(cat /tmp/duedate.txt); sed -i "1i${myduedate}" """$fullname""";fi
sleep 1
sed -i "1icreated: ${longdate}" """$fullname"""
sleep 1
sed -i "1imodified: ${longdate}" """$fullname"""



if [[ $marker -eq 2 ]]
then
#wmctrl -k on
mousepad """$fullname""" || gedit """$fullname"""
sleep 1
wmctrl -a """$fullname""" && xdotool search """$fullname""" windowactivate &

wmctrl -r :"""$fullname""" -b remove,maximized_vert; wmctrl -r """$fullname""" -b remove,maximized_horz; wmctrl -r """$fullname""" -e 0,700,240,400,400
bash ${scriptpath}bash/bringAboveCentered.sh

fi

[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Greg Molyneux]

Dave,

I use Linux all day at work, and regularly at home, so I would be 
interested in seeing the bash script you've got, if you don't mind posting 
it.  I think I've heard you mention it in previous threads as well.  YAD 
wouldn't be a problem, as it's widely available.

I haven't looked into Bob yet, but I'm excited to check it out - it seems 
to have a lot of potential.

Even with all of the above capability, this doesn't solve the problem for a 
wider user base.  Including the capabilities we're discussing here in a 
common (and widely available) packaging is what will expand the TW user 
base.  While I can use Linux, install and test plugins, and set up Bob, 
most general users aren't going to want to do such things.  Honestly, I 
don't want to hack these things together either - I'd much rather have a 
project built on Tiddlywiki with capabilities like we're discussing ready 
to go, right out of the box, built by people who know what they're doing 
(definitely not me).  Maybe packaged with an updated TiddlyDesktop.  Still, 
beggars can't be choosers, and until I break down and learn to develop what 
I want, I'll be happy with the unrealized capability of TW, and the ability 
to cobble together something that mostly works for myself.  Or I'll use 
StackEdit, DynaList, Trillium, or Scrivener where they make more sense.

thanks for sharing your code, I'm interested in seeing what it does.


On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 9:48:04 AM UTC-8, Dave wrote:
>
> P.S., this very discussion topic  is the reason I'm so happy to have found 
> Bob, simply because I can now use bash to manipulate tiddlers (text files) 
> at will (as I'm more proficient at bash than javascript)
>
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 10:45:31 AM UTC-7, Dave wrote:
>>
>> I have the beginnings of a setup like this, but it only works if you have 
>> a node-based TW system:
>>
>> I have a bash script (on Linux) that at a keystroke pops up a text dialog 
>> (big space for writing text), and it uses the first line as the tiddler 
>> title field, and anything you write immediately after that without empty 
>> lines can become part of the fields.
>>
>> E.g. just now I called it up (without having my TW open in the browser) 
>> and wrote:
>>
>> this is a test tiddler 2019-01-15
>> tags: wowser
>>
>>
>> bla bla bla 
>>
>> and then I opened up my TW and there it was [[this is a test tiddler 2019
>> -01-15]] with the tag "wowser" and the text below bla bla bla.  It 
>> automatically inserts the fields "created" and "modified" both with today's 
>> date.
>>
>>
>> I'd imagine you should be able to re-program the script to allow several 
>> sections in the text to break it up into several different tiddlers.  
>>
>> I don't have the time right now to actually do that (I'm a non-programmer 
>> by trade) but is this something you'd want me to post for you? (depends on 
>> if you have linux, and also you'd need the program YAD (yet another dialog) 
>> for it to work.
>>
>> - Dave P
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Dave]

P.S., this very discussion is the reason I'm so happy to have found Bob, 
simply because I can now use bash to manipulate tiddlers (text files) at 
will (as I'm more proficient at bash than javascript)

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 10:45:31 AM UTC-7, Dave wrote:
>
> I have the beginnings of a setup like this, but it only works if you have 
> a node-based TW system:
>
> I have a bash script (on Linux) that at a keystroke pops up a text dialog 
> (big space for writing text), and it uses the first line as the tiddler 
> title field, and anything you write immediately after that without empty 
> lines can become part of the fields.
>
> E.g. just now I called it up (without having my TW open in the browser) 
> and wrote:
>
> this is a test tiddler 2019-01-15
> tags: wowser
>
>
> bla bla bla 
>
> and then I opened up my TW and there it was [[this is a test tiddler 2019-
> 01-15]] with the tag "wowser" and the text below bla bla bla.  It 
> automatically inserts the fields "created" and "modified" both with today's 
> date.
>
>
> I'd imagine you should be able to re-program the script to allow several 
> sections in the text to break it up into several different tiddlers.  
>
> I don't have the time right now to actually do that (I'm a non-programmer 
> by trade) but is this something you'd want me to post for you? (depends on 
> if you have linux, and also you'd need the program YAD (yet another dialog) 
> for it to work.
>
> - Dave P
>

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Dave]

I have the beginnings of a setup like this, but it only works if you have a 
node-based TW system:

I have a bash script (on Linux) that at a keystroke pops up a text dialog 
(big space for writing text), and it uses the first line as the tiddler 
title field, and anything you write immediately after that without empty 
lines can become part of the fields.

E.g. just now I called it up (without having my TW open in the browser) and 
wrote:

this is a test tiddler 2019-01-15
tags: wowser


bla bla bla 

and then I opened up my TW and there it was [[this is a test tiddler 2019-01
-15]] with the tag "wowser" and the text below bla bla bla.  It 
automatically inserts the fields "created" and "modified" both with today's 
date.


I'd imagine you should be able to re-program the script to allow several 
sections in the text to break it up into several different tiddlers.  

I don't have the time right now to actually do that (I'm a non-programmer 
by trade) but is this something you'd want me to post for you? (depends on 
if you have linux, and also you'd need the program YAD (yet another dialog) 
for it to work.

- Dave P

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Greg Molyneux]

Mark,

Yep, inserting these fields as text would allow me to move back (arrows, 
home, and end keys are my friend - and I'd never have to leave the 
keyboard), complete the required fields, and arrow back down to enter 
notes/text as desired.  If this keystroke combination could auto-populate 
things like the date fields, all the better, and allowing the user to 
choose which fields (beyond minimum required entries) are added would be a 
great bonus.  This is generally faster and more effective than constantly 
having to leave the keyboard to complete these tasks with the mouse 
interface for each new tiddler.

Parsing the text might be made easier with a dedicated delimiter inserted 
with/before the new tiddler fields: "-BeginTiddler-" for example.  
Just a thought.

Again, this would be beneficial in my view for a specific use case - where 
StackEdit or Dynalist are preferred for their speed of entry in a "live" 
situation.  Being able to do all of these things without leaving the 
keyboard makes categorizing and relating this work on the fly quicker, and 
automatically breaking the one long page down to distinct tiddlers fits the 
TW data model (and benefits) better.  At the very least, inserting these 
fields on demand - even if you go back and fill them out later - quickly 
and cleanly identifies natural break points for the author.   This allows 
cleanup and refinement later, before breaking the long page into individual 
tiddlers, without having to completely re-parse the work.

There's a discussion going on in another thread right now about useful 
lessons from the "competition", and one of the things that strikes me there 
(and here) is this:  We see other programs able to do this or that, and 
frequently say "TiddlyWiki can do that".  In most cases, that is absolutely 
true - TW can do that.  But it doesn't.  At least not "out of the box".  So 
many of these features require someone to code the capability, or develop a 
given feature, or download and test a plugin (and hope it doesn't break 
something else), and this is a HUGE barrier to entry and use for most 
people.  This is why StackEdit or DynaList or similar are used so easily - 
they just do the things that people require for a given workflow.  It's not 
that they're better from a tech standpoint, but they are better suited to 
the needs of their users, right out of the box.

Thanks for your input, I do appreciate everyone's consideration.
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 8:04:38 AM UTC-8, Mark S. wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> Just to clarify. You're suggesting that your keystroke insert the 
> suggested fields *as text* ? I think that part could be done now inside 
> the standard TW editor. The easiest way would be to hijack an existing key 
> (like underscore). Not sure how easy it would be to navigate back to the 
> starting point, so there might have to be some back-arrowing (technology is 
> forcing me to invent new words).
>
> So there would be a little fiddly stuff getting into the edit session, but 
> after that you could just type away, as long as you didn't make mistakes 
> like capitalizing tags incorrectly.
>
> The 2nd part, parsing the text, could be done with a separate tool. I've 
> made parsing java macros before that parsed CSV from one tiddler into a 
> collection of tiddlers (turning Shakespeare into tiddlers), so that's the 
> approach I would take. 
>
> Anyone else?
>
> -- Mark
>
> On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 4:58:54 PM UTC-8, Greg Molyneux wrote:
>>
>> Mark S. (and any interested hackers)
>>
>> That's EXACTLY the problem I see with using TiddlyWiki "live" as it were: 
>> trying to take notes on a live lecture or video presentation is 
>> tremendously painful in Tiddlywiki if you're trying to impose any order on 
>> the fly.  Moving from keyboard to mouse and back constantly makes the 
>> process largely unworkable with any serious time constraints.
>>
>> I love TW for its organizational and relational capabilities, but for 
>> getting down information quickly, it's not my first choice.  Tools like 
>> TiddlyMap can help here if properly utilized, and there are others, but 
>> they still leave you with the same problem: lots of kb to mouse to kb 
>> movement.  This is seriously distracting when you're trying to "keep up" 
>> with a live event, or get something out of your head quickly.
>>
>> That said, I do have an idea I'd like to float to anyone interested:  A 
>> killer plugin for TW would be a button that opens a new text entry window 
>> or frame.  Inside this otherwise blank frame, the user can type as fast as 
>> they are able, utilizing markdown or html (as in any standard tiddler), 
>> thus providing whatever formatting they see fit on the fly.  Yes, I know, 
>> you're thinking "you can do this with any tiddler right now, so what?"  
>> Well, here's where things get neat (in my head at least)...
>>
>> So far, the above largely mimics the general editing screen of StackEdit, 
>> so no big deal, but what if 

[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Hi Greg,

Just to clarify. You're suggesting that your keystroke insert the suggested 
fields *as text* ? I think that part could be done now inside the standard 
TW editor. The easiest way would be to hijack an existing key (like 
underscore). Not sure how easy it would be to navigate back to the starting 
point, so there might have to be some back-arrowing (technology is forcing 
me to invent new words).

So there would be a little fiddly stuff getting into the edit session, but 
after that you could just type away, as long as you didn't make mistakes 
like capitalizing tags incorrectly.

The 2nd part, parsing the text, could be done with a separate tool. I've 
made parsing java macros before that parsed CSV from one tiddler into a 
collection of tiddlers (turning Shakespeare into tiddlers), so that's the 
approach I would take. 

Anyone else?

-- Mark

On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 4:58:54 PM UTC-8, Greg Molyneux wrote:
>
> Mark S. (and any interested hackers)
>
> That's EXACTLY the problem I see with using TiddlyWiki "live" as it were: 
> trying to take notes on a live lecture or video presentation is 
> tremendously painful in Tiddlywiki if you're trying to impose any order on 
> the fly.  Moving from keyboard to mouse and back constantly makes the 
> process largely unworkable with any serious time constraints.
>
> I love TW for its organizational and relational capabilities, but for 
> getting down information quickly, it's not my first choice.  Tools like 
> TiddlyMap can help here if properly utilized, and there are others, but 
> they still leave you with the same problem: lots of kb to mouse to kb 
> movement.  This is seriously distracting when you're trying to "keep up" 
> with a live event, or get something out of your head quickly.
>
> That said, I do have an idea I'd like to float to anyone interested:  A 
> killer plugin for TW would be a button that opens a new text entry window 
> or frame.  Inside this otherwise blank frame, the user can type as fast as 
> they are able, utilizing markdown or html (as in any standard tiddler), 
> thus providing whatever formatting they see fit on the fly.  Yes, I know, 
> you're thinking "you can do this with any tiddler right now, so what?"  
> Well, here's where things get neat (in my head at least)...
>
> So far, the above largely mimics the general editing screen of StackEdit, 
> so no big deal, but what if you were able to use a keystroke combination in 
> this editor pane to insert a new tiddler framework.  So for example, if I 
> press  (or whatever - the choice doesn't matter much as long 
> as it doesn't mess up anything else), this editor pane inserts something 
> similar to the following:
>
> created:
> creator:
> list:
> modified:
> modifier:
> tags:
> title:
> tmap.id:
>
> And then positions the cursor directly under these inserted fields, for 
> data entry.  Now, the above entries were taken from a .tid file I exported 
> from one of my tiddlers, so there's more in there than is necessary for a 
> new tiddler, but you get the idea.  Now, I can already hear someone saying 
> "you can do that right now by just copying this minimal framework to the 
> clipboard", and that's true, but using a key binding would allow me to 
> cut/paste text as I go for the editing I'm discussing, and that's 
> important.  It'd be really impressive if the fields pasted with the custom 
> key combination could be customized, so I could add fields as necessary for 
> my specific wiki.
>
> I understand, there's nothing specifically remarkable about what I'm 
> suggesting above.  Assuming I've gone back to each of these pasted field 
> sections shown above, and entered relevant information (title, tags, etc.), 
> or had the information auto-populated (dates, modifier, etc.), then we have 
> the basics for any number of individual tiddlers in text/markup form, all 
> contained on this one edit panel.  After I'm done editing and taking notes, 
> the magic plugin I'm thinking of would at this point allow me to press a 
> "parse" or "finish" (or whatever) button, and it would parse the text I'd 
> entered, separate the individual tiddlers at the appropriate points (using 
> the populated fields listed as examples above), and create appropriate 
> tiddlers in the TW file, properly tagged, linked, and stored as if I'd 
> created them via the mouse interface one at a time.  Think of the time 
> savings this would permit for live or rapid work, and still give us the 
> organizational benefits of TW over an editor like StackEdit.
>
> From my perspective, if you want to win users over from DynaList, 
> StackEdit, or some of the other tools mentioned earlier in this thread, 
> that'd be a quick (and really slick) way to squash some of the usability 
> issues discussed here.  If anyone knows of a plugin that does this right 
> now, please let me know, I'd love to try it out.
>
> Regardless, I'd like to thank all the regulars here who do so much good 
> work with this 

[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[TonyM]

Greg,

I did something similar as an exercise but it was of no value to me. In the 
body of any tiddler text build your multiple tiddlers, export it with a custom 
export and it creates the tiddlers on import. This could be developed to bypass 
the export to file step.

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Greg Molyneux]

Mark S. (and any interested hackers)

That's EXACTLY the problem I see with using TiddlyWiki "live" as it were: 
trying to take notes on a live lecture or video presentation is 
tremendously painful in Tiddlywiki if you're trying to impose any order on 
the fly.  Moving from keyboard to mouse and back constantly makes the 
process largely unworkable with any serious time constraints.

I love TW for its organizational and relational capabilities, but for 
getting down information quickly, it's not my first choice.  Tools like 
TiddlyMap can help here if properly utilized, and there are others, but 
they still leave you with the same problem: lots of kb to mouse to kb 
movement.  This is seriously distracting when you're trying to "keep up" 
with a live event, or get something out of your head quickly.

That said, I do have an idea I'd like to float to anyone interested:  A 
killer plugin for TW would be a button that opens a new text entry window 
or frame.  Inside this otherwise blank frame, the user can type as fast as 
they are able, utilizing markdown or html (as in any standard tiddler), 
thus providing whatever formatting they see fit on the fly.  Yes, I know, 
you're thinking "you can do this with any tiddler right now, so what?"  
Well, here's where things get neat (in my head at least)...

So far, the above largely mimics the general editing screen of StackEdit, 
so no big deal, but what if you were able to use a keystroke combination in 
this editor pane to insert a new tiddler framework.  So for example, if I 
press  (or whatever - the choice doesn't matter much as long 
as it doesn't mess up anything else), this editor pane inserts something 
similar to the following:

created:
creator:
list:
modified:
modifier:
tags:
title:
tmap.id:

And then positions the cursor directly under these inserted fields, for 
data entry.  Now, the above entries were taken from a .tid file I exported 
from one of my tiddlers, so there's more in there than is necessary for a 
new tiddler, but you get the idea.  Now, I can already hear someone saying 
"you can do that right now by just copying this minimal framework to the 
clipboard", and that's true, but using a key binding would allow me to 
cut/paste text as I go for the editing I'm discussing, and that's 
important.  It'd be really impressive if the fields pasted with the custom 
key combination could be customized, so I could add fields as necessary for 
my specific wiki.

I understand, there's nothing specifically remarkable about what I'm 
suggesting above.  Assuming I've gone back to each of these pasted field 
sections shown above, and entered relevant information (title, tags, etc.), 
or had the information auto-populated (dates, modifier, etc.), then we have 
the basics for any number of individual tiddlers in text/markup form, all 
contained on this one edit panel.  After I'm done editing and taking notes, 
the magic plugin I'm thinking of would at this point allow me to press a 
"parse" or "finish" (or whatever) button, and it would parse the text I'd 
entered, separate the individual tiddlers at the appropriate points (using 
the populated fields listed as examples above), and create appropriate 
tiddlers in the TW file, properly tagged, linked, and stored as if I'd 
created them via the mouse interface one at a time.  Think of the time 
savings this would permit for live or rapid work, and still give us the 
organizational benefits of TW over an editor like StackEdit.

>From my perspective, if you want to win users over from DynaList, 
StackEdit, or some of the other tools mentioned earlier in this thread, 
that'd be a quick (and really slick) way to squash some of the usability 
issues discussed here.  If anyone knows of a plugin that does this right 
now, please let me know, I'd love to try it out.

Regardless, I'd like to thank all the regulars here who do so much good 
work with this wonderful tool.



On Sunday, December 30, 2018 at 2:59:12 PM UTC-8, Mark S. wrote:
>
>  Hi Tony,
>
> Sorry to hear you're having some health problems. Hope everything turns 
> out OK for you.
>
> Dynalist and Scrivener are easy to pick up. Org-mode isn't too hard either 
> as long as you stick with the basics.
>
> In all of these, I think, you create a new entry, promote/demote it, or 
> move it in the hierarchy -- without your fingers leaving the keyboard! You 
> can work uninterrupted, concentrating on the text, not fiddling with the 
> tech.
>
> One of the weaknesses in TW is how much you have to use the mouse for. You 
> create a new tiddler (by clicking on a button). Then you go back to the 
> keyboard. Then you tab down and the tags appear. How to get rid of them ? 
> Turns out you can tab and then space. But then you have to tab through all 
> the edit fields before you can get to the text field. But you can't see 
> which edit tool you're on (at least I can't), so what's the point? Most of 
> the edit tools are useless unless you're already down in the text 

[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[AdamS]

Thanks Mark and Mark. I guess I'll just keep plugging along then!

Best wishes,

Adam

On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 3:03:21 PM UTC, Mark Krieg wrote:
>
> I'll throw in my 2 cents...
>
> I've never encountered a typing speed issue. I'm a fast typist and I 
> primarily use a MacBookPro with Chrome browser. My primary TiddlyWiki is 
> 88.7 megs. I use TW5 with node.js, however if I save it to a single .html 
> file, although the launch is slow, I notice no lag when typing. As Mark S. 
> commented, it probably depends on your platform (hardware and software). I 
> also serve my node.js version frequently from a Raspberry Pi B+ with no lag!
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 5:50:26 AM UTC-5, AdamS wrote:
>>
>> Mark and Tony, 
>>
>> Could you guys say a little more about the typing speed issue. I haven't 
>> encountered this yet, but have been hoping to use TW for long-form writing. 
>> So this issue troubles me. Are there any routes to fixing this issue? Or is 
>> it a product of something fundamental to the way TW works?
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Adam
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Mark Krieg]

I'll throw in my 2 cents...

I've never encountered a typing speed issue. I'm a fast typist and I 
primarily use a MacBookPro with Chrome browser. My primary TiddlyWiki is 
88.7 megs. I use TW5 with node.js, however if I save it to a single .html 
file, although the launch is slow, I notice no lag when typing. As Mark S. 
commented, it probably depends on your platform (hardware and software). I 
also serve my node.js version frequently from a Raspberry Pi B+ with no lag!

Mark


On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 5:50:26 AM UTC-5, AdamS wrote:
>
> Mark and Tony, 
>
> Could you guys say a little more about the typing speed issue. I haven't 
> encountered this yet, but have been hoping to use TW for long-form writing. 
> So this issue troubles me. Are there any routes to fixing this issue? Or is 
> it a product of something fundamental to the way TW works?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Adam
>

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

It might work fine for you. TW performance is tied to machine performance. 
Maybe all my stuff is ancient ;-)

Just try TW using a fullish file (5 megs or more) on the platforms and 
under the conditions that you expect to be using it. If you do have an 
issue, the main thing to do is to separate your writing tiddlers from your 
viewing tiddlers. That is, keep the working TW file small, and transfer 
finished tiddlers to a "archival" TW that grows over time.

Good luck
-- Mark

On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 2:50:26 AM UTC-8, AdamS wrote:
>
> Mark and Tony, 
>
> Could you guys say a little more about the typing speed issue. I haven't 
> encountered this yet, but have been hoping to use TW for long-form writing. 
> So this issue troubles me. Are there any routes to fixing this issue? Or is 
> it a product of something fundamental to the way TW works?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Adam
>

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[AdamS]

Mark and Tony, 

Could you guys say a little more about the typing speed issue. I haven't 
encountered this yet, but have been hoping to use TW for long-form writing. 
So this issue troubles me. Are there any routes to fixing this issue? Or is 
it a product of something fundamental to the way TW works?

Best wishes,

Adam

On Sunday, December 30, 2018 at 10:59:12 PM UTC, Mark S. wrote:
>
>  Hi Tony,
>
> Sorry to hear you're having some health problems. Hope everything turns 
> out OK for you.
>
> Dynalist and Scrivener are easy to pick up. Org-mode isn't too hard either 
> as long as you stick with the basics.
>
> In all of these, I think, you create a new entry, promote/demote it, or 
> move it in the hierarchy -- without your fingers leaving the keyboard! You 
> can work uninterrupted, concentrating on the text, not fiddling with the 
> tech.
>
> One of the weaknesses in TW is how much you have to use the mouse for. You 
> create a new tiddler (by clicking on a button). Then you go back to the 
> keyboard. Then you tab down and the tags appear. How to get rid of them ? 
> Turns out you can tab and then space. But then you have to tab through all 
> the edit fields before you can get to the text field. But you can't see 
> which edit tool you're on (at least I can't), so what's the point? Most of 
> the edit tools are useless unless you're already down in the text box, so 
> wouldn't it be better to tab right into the text field? There also doesn't 
> seem to be anyway to tab into the tag field. So you're stuck using the 
> mouse again.
>
> And I haven't even gotten to the part about how you're going to be 
> breaking text into tiddlers, but the tiddlers will have to be managed with 
> some list or contrivance if you want to view or edit them in proper 
> sequence. Otherwise they'll just appear in the "recent" tab in whichever 
> order they were created.
>
> Speed. I've mentioned this before. In my heyday I could type 120wpm. More 
> normally I could type 60wpm. Today 40 isn't impossible. But the refresh 
> cycle on TW is constantly tripping up input, making the experience 
> sluggish. The experience varies by platform, browser, and memory usage I 
> think. But I don't expect to have typing problems *ever*.
>
> There's also issues with the default edit font. The edit fonts are 
> non-mono, and way too small on small devices. Yes, I know, I can tweak 
> them. 
>
> These are all reasons why typing and writing on TW isn't optimal. I'm not 
> saying impossible, just not comfortable.
>
> -- Mark
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[HansWobbe]

@ David Gifford

Thanks for the additional insights.  I always find it useful to review the 
tools and workFlows of others as a way of learning how to improve my own.

I tihnk I am making good progress with StackEdit, although I seem to be 
momentarily stumped by an inability to find the Synchronize "submenu".

Best wishes, Cheers and Blessings fpr the New Year.
Hans

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[TonyM]

Mark,

Thanks for sharing. I can't type as fast as you and I am happy to use the mouse 
so I expect I do not expierience tw the same way. I do however think we should 
try address these issues you raise.

I need to deal with some typing lag in my 7mb + wiki, sometimes I type three 
words and have time to whistle a tune waiting for them to appear. As in twc I 
suspect hiding the sidebar from rendering may help this.

I saw a good tw outliner in my travels I will try and find it.

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

 Hi Tony,

Sorry to hear you're having some health problems. Hope everything turns out 
OK for you.

Dynalist and Scrivener are easy to pick up. Org-mode isn't too hard either 
as long as you stick with the basics.

In all of these, I think, you create a new entry, promote/demote it, or 
move it in the hierarchy -- without your fingers leaving the keyboard! You 
can work uninterrupted, concentrating on the text, not fiddling with the 
tech.

One of the weaknesses in TW is how much you have to use the mouse for. You 
create a new tiddler (by clicking on a button). Then you go back to the 
keyboard. Then you tab down and the tags appear. How to get rid of them ? 
Turns out you can tab and then space. But then you have to tab through all 
the edit fields before you can get to the text field. But you can't see 
which edit tool you're on (at least I can't), so what's the point? Most of 
the edit tools are useless unless you're already down in the text box, so 
wouldn't it be better to tab right into the text field? There also doesn't 
seem to be anyway to tab into the tag field. So you're stuck using the 
mouse again.

And I haven't even gotten to the part about how you're going to be breaking 
text into tiddlers, but the tiddlers will have to be managed with some list 
or contrivance if you want to view or edit them in proper sequence. 
Otherwise they'll just appear in the "recent" tab in whichever order they 
were created.

Speed. I've mentioned this before. In my heyday I could type 120wpm. More 
normally I could type 60wpm. Today 40 isn't impossible. But the refresh 
cycle on TW is constantly tripping up input, making the experience 
sluggish. The experience varies by platform, browser, and memory usage I 
think. But I don't expect to have typing problems *ever*.

There's also issues with the default edit font. The edit fonts are 
non-mono, and way too small on small devices. Yes, I know, I can tweak 
them. 

These are all reasons why typing and writing on TW isn't optimal. I'm not 
saying impossible, just not comfortable.

-- Mark

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Re: [tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[David Gifford]

I tried to write this from groups in my phone since some people take issue
with the required long and religious signature on my work email. Google is
telling me the send process didn't take, so I am copying and pasting it and
sending by email. Would be a lot easier if I were at my lap. But I am in
bed a little under the weather. Blessings.
-

Happy to explain, Hans. Stackedit is great in that you can toggle
everything away and write in a clear space in markdown. So I totally
understand your comment.

My problems are three.

1. I found myself toggling a lot in stackedit. Toggle the format bar since
no way to use keystrokes for bold and italic. Toggle the left bar to open a
file. Toggle the right to access the TOC. Toggle to another part of the
right for pubbing or printing etc. That was distracting. I had enough
distractions like that in Tiddlywiki and didn't want more.

2. Dragging ideas to different places and zooming in and out is not as easy
as in dynalist. I tend to think and write long articles  hierarchically. So
dynalist is quicker for that and suits my way of writing.

3. Confession time. I tend to format headers, etc, as I write, a bad habit.
I am a very visual person who likes things looking nice even in the draft
phase  In stackedit this means a bunch of ugly ##s and **s everywhere. Made
for a lot of clutter. So I decided to write in dynalist and format certain
items in stackedit after the transfer process, to kind of trick/force
myself not to format until after everything is written.

So, stackedit is great, but I am picky and weird. And this system so far is
doing the trick.

Blessings.


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Show quoted text


On Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 12:41 PM HansWobbe  David:
>
> Thanks for sharing your writing tool insights.
>
> Having followed your references to DynaList and found it to be quite
> useful, I couldn't resist peeking at StackEdit.  After a very few brief
> tests, I am curious regarding your statement that you write in DynaList and
> then export to StackEdit. Based on my experience with DynaList Notes, it
> seems to me to be easier to write in StackEdit and just use DynaList for
> managing dynamic lists.
>
> At the risk of imposing on your time, I would appreciate a bit of an
> expansion on your comment, since I may well be missing something.
>
>
> Regards,
> Hans
>
>
> On Sunday, December 30, 2018 at 9:21:04 AM UTC-5, David Gifford wrote:
>>
>> Mark that is very true.
>>
>> My own two cents worth is that TiddlyWiki is an excellent tool for
>> indexing ideas and information, and seeing how they relate to each other,
>> but is not really a good tool for writing. I now use Dynalist for writing,
>> then export to StackEdit and tweak for publishing as a dynamic HTML or pdf.
>> I use TiddlyWiki to organize my information: work info, bookmarks, links to
>> photo gallery folders in my OneDrive, etc. Part of me wants one tool that
>> does it all, and TiddlyWiki comes close in many ways, but it ultimately is
>> better to find what each tool is best at and use them in tandem.
>>
>>
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For more options, 

[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[David Gifford]

Happy to explain, Hans. Stackedit is great in that you can toggle everything 
away and write in a clear space in markdown. So I totally understand your 
comment. 

My problems are three. 

1. I found myself toggling a lot in stackedit. Toggle the format bar since no 
way to use keystrokes for bold and italic. Toggle the left bar to open a file. 
Toggle the right to access the TOC. Toggle to another part of the right for 
pubbing or printing etc. That was distracting. I had enough distractions like 
that in Tiddlywiki and didn't want more.

2. Dragging ideas to different places and zooming in and out is not as easy as 
in dynalist. I tend to think and write long articles  hierarchically. So 
dynalist is quicker for that and suits my way of writing. 

3. Confession time. I tend to format headers, etc, as I write, a bad habit. I 
am a very visual person who likes things looking nice even in the draft phase  
In stackedit this means a bunch of ugly ##s and **s everywhere. Made for a lot 
of clutter. So I decided to write in dynalist and format certain items in 
stackedit after the transfer process, to kind of trick/force myself not to 
format until after everything is written.

So, stackedit is great, but I am picky and weird. And this system so far is 
doing the trick. 

Blessings.

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[HansWobbe]

David:

Thanks for sharing your writing tool insights.

Having followed your references to DynaList and found it to be quite 
useful, I couldn't resist peeking at StackEdit.  After a very few brief 
tests, I am curious regarding your statement that you write in DynaList and 
then export to StackEdit. Based on my experience with DynaList Notes, it 
seems to me to be easier to write in StackEdit and just use DynaList for 
managing dynamic lists.  

At the risk of imposing on your time, I would appreciate a bit of an 
expansion on your comment, since I may well be missing something.


Regards,
Hans


On Sunday, December 30, 2018 at 9:21:04 AM UTC-5, David Gifford wrote:
>
> Mark that is very true.
>
> My own two cents worth is that TiddlyWiki is an excellent tool for 
> indexing ideas and information, and seeing how they relate to each other, 
> but is not really a good tool for writing. I now use Dynalist for writing, 
> then export to StackEdit and tweak for publishing as a dynamic HTML or pdf. 
> I use TiddlyWiki to organize my information: work info, bookmarks, links to 
> photo gallery folders in my OneDrive, etc. Part of me wants one tool that 
> does it all, and TiddlyWiki comes close in many ways, but it ultimately is 
> better to find what each tool is best at and use them in tandem.
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Mohammad]

Many thanks for your comments.

So, Tiddlywiki is good for Tiddly things, may be a crowd of Tiddly things 
but not for big things like writing a multi chapter book or even a journal 
paper!
Two reasons by now

   - Not strong, not comfortable for outlining
   - Not smart and easy to use for long multi sections big texts
   - Not capable to export high quality contents in form of epub, pdf, ... 
   (like preparing medium to large texts e.g book)



--Mohammad


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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[David Gifford]

Mark that is very true.

My own two cents worth is that TiddlyWiki is an excellent tool for indexing 
ideas and information, and seeing how they relate to each other, but is not 
really a good tool for writing. I now use Dynalist for writing, then export 
to StackEdit and tweak for publishing as a dynamic HTML or pdf. I use 
TiddlyWiki to organize my information: work info, bookmarks, links to photo 
gallery folders in my OneDrive, etc. Part of me wants one tool that does it 
all, and TiddlyWiki comes close in many ways, but it ultimately is better 
to find what each tool is best at and use them in tandem.

On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 4:03:01 PM UTC-6, Mark S. wrote:
>
> I haven't found any really good way with TW to create outline style text 
> the way you can with Scrivener, OrgMode, or Dynalist.  In real life, you 
> want to move blocks of text around easily within a structure. Perhaps you 
> could do a flat-structure version of this, using draggable tiddlers to 
> change the order. But for larger structures, you would have to do a lot of 
> re-linking, or re-tagging. When you're trying to write flat-out, you don't 
> want to mess with the mechanism itself. There's also the problem of 
> insertion of additional resources (e.g. images) which is clumsy because you 
> still have to create the links by hand rather than a simple drag-n-drop.
>
> -- Mark
>
> On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 12:09:26 PM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>> I think Tiddlywiki is a much better tool than Scrivener 
>>
>> https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener/features?os=Windows
>>
>> What do you think? Is there anything TW cannot do and Scrivener can?
>>
>>
>> --Mohammad
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[TonyM]

I would ask you all, what is in these other outliners you cant imagine a 
solution for in tiddlywiki, I am not familiar with them.

Of interest is the workflow you use. To me I tend to organise information by 
metadata, or with headings which I can use as tiddler names, even if it 
contains sub tiddlers. More often than not the order tends only to change 
localy. Thus by tagging a tiddller with the parent/grandparent and using drag 
and drop on the tag lists I get all the control I desire.

Different views can be created in a single tiddler that renders a chapter, 
section or whole document in a similar way to a toc, for viewing, and or 
editing and or drag and drop reordering. You can make sections or chapters 
colapsible, edit inline, or display metadata.

So I am not sure what is missing or can not be made.

This is a comment, from my mobile, as I happen to be in hospital having had a 
detached retina fixed (a real retina not an apple trademark). Something that 
once would have rendered me blind in that eye. Thanks to modern science and 
medicine, and thanks to the Australian heath system, at no cost to me.

So you could say I am keeping an eye on the group 

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[@TiddlyTweeter]

It is not so much length as dynamics.

Say you had a chapter of 35 of paragraphs, each a Tiddler but needed to reorder 
them...

I think the central issue is about Tiddlers. We tend to assume they are "units" 
... But complexity arises in combinatorial situations. Was the unit right?

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Mohammad]

Hi Mark, Hi Josiah,
So it seems TW gets in trouble when dealing with long and large texts like a 
book chapter. The other problem may be create the output of such large texts in 
other format with good table of contents and reference. That is required when 
publishing in PDF or similar formats.

So are these areas of further research and development in Tiddlywiki or not?

Mohammad

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I think Mark S.' points are good.

Architecturally I think TW (as is) can be cumbersome if you need to emulate 
dynamic outlining.

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

I haven't found any really good way with TW to create outline style text 
the way you can with Scrivener, OrgMode, or Dynalist.  In real life, you 
want to move blocks of text around easily within a structure. Perhaps you 
could do a flat-structure version of this, using draggable tiddlers to 
change the order. But for larger structures, you would have to do a lot of 
re-linking, or re-tagging. When you're trying to write flat-out, you don't 
want to mess with the mechanism itself. There's also the problem of 
insertion of additional resources (e.g. images) which is clumsy because you 
still have to create the links by hand rather than a simple drag-n-drop.

-- Mark

On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 12:09:26 PM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>
> I think Tiddlywiki is a much better tool than Scrivener 
>
> https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener/features?os=Windows
>
> What do you think? Is there anything TW cannot do and Scrivener can?
>
>
> --Mohammad
>

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[tw5] Re: Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Mohammad]

AND I think TW5 can do this kind of things easier  than other tools out 
there

http://calnewport.com/blog/2009/05/11/how-to-build-a-paper-research-wiki/


--Mohammad

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