[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[Atronoush]

Rika,
 Many thanks for your post and sharing your valuable experiences with TW 
and RR.

On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 3:40:59 AM UTC+4:30 rika.s...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> Hi all. 
> If I may, I'd like to chime in. I'm a new Tiddlywiki user and I've also 
> been a Roam user for several months. Both are wonderful products. I think - 
> at least for right now - there is space for both tools in the knowledge 
> management ecosystem. I think it would be helpful if I provide my personal 
> experience using Roam & Tiddlywiki, in the hopes of shedding light on each 
> product's strengths and weaknesses and how to potentially think about 
> forging a path ahead. 
>
> Let me start by explaining how I roamed onto Roam. I was doing some 
> serendipitous Internet searching on neuroscience. I don't remember the 
> details of what I was searching fo,  but I stumbled on Anne-Laure's blog, 
> so I must have had used some keywords associated with motivation or 
> productivity. Through Anne-Laure's writing, I discovered Roam (I also 
> discovered TiddlyWiki through Anne-Laure's article(s)).
>

In my opinion, Tiddlywiki has not enough advertising. Many people come to 
TW have seen videos in YouTube, some have read blogs. Unfortunately in most 
cases TW has not been introduced in full power and feature. For example 
their simple procedure to create static website and blog than what 
Anne-Laure described.

 

> I was intrigued. I fell down the rabbit hole of seemingly endless Roam 
> tutorials and content. It was overwhelming, but super exciting because Roam 
> exposed me to new ideas that I had not heard of before. I know some folks 
> have made the claim that these ideas are not new - I agree; but, they were 
> new to me. Roam's content was my gateway to these ideas. Switching gears to 
> my experience using Roam, in short, it's pretty clunky. It's not a 
> beautiful and seamless user experience like Notion or Evernote. In fact, 
> there's not even a mobile app. It requires some coding knowledge to 
> understand how to use it. Again, it's clunky. I'm not happy about paying 
> the subscription fee, but I'm biting the bullet because the community 
> brings me value. I've learned a lot. 
>
> Enter Tiddlywiki. I was pumped when I discovered it through Anne-Laure 
> because it seemed like I could use it to create a digital garden that 
> resembles Andy Matuschak's Notes 
> . Transcluding pop-ups 
> is super cool, and Roam doesn't have that feature. I found it quite simple 
> to implement in Tidlywiki once I got the hang of things. For me, 
> personally, the learning curve to use Tiddlywiki was much higher than Roam. 
> For example, I didn't need to learn how to host a website with Roam so I 
> could save my work. As far as using Tiddlywiki, an empty Tiddler looks like 
> just like a blog post. Tiddlywiki seems like a really nifty way to host 
> your own blog.  With a vibrant open-source community, a person could figure 
> out how to modify the styling and turn it into a really cool personal 
> homepage. You can't do the same with Roam. I'm not going to share my Roam 
> database with the public. It would be like sharing my Google Drive 
> journals. Valuable content, but it lacks the look & feel of a blog. 
>

I think TW is like development environment like a framework and creating a 
blog is like making a tool/product using Tiddlywiki. I can compare learning 
TW is like learning a very high level programming language. It lets you to 
develop simple apps in Html5+CSS3+JS with the speed of light :-) -:)

So, no worry to cast look and feel of your app created by TW using CSS and 
JS to anything you like! I know the problem is here most end users are NOT 
web developer NOT have information on using css+js so it likes you get the 
raw materials but you are looking for end product!!


 

>
> I hope to have expressed that I think Tiddlywiki & Roam have their own 
> unique space in the knowledge management ecosystem.  One key point is that 
> Roam, unlike Tiddlywiki, is a for-profit company that has already found 
> monetization. They also now have investors to appease. Who knows what 
> direction this may take them in. Roam's future is far from certain. Some 
> questions that come to mind are, 1) will they be able to continue 
> attracting new users? maybe, but they probably need to make Roam more user 
> friendly; 2) will they continue to engage their current users? maybe, but 
> they'll need to push out exciting new features to justify the subscription 
> cost. Tiddlywiki's strength lies in its open source nature. When I think of 
> Tiddlywiki, I think of platforms like Roku & Android that enable any dev to 
> build on them and as a result these platforms have lots of apps and lots of 
> users. The potential is there for both apps, and there is plenty of 
> potential market share to go around. Most people don't use Roam or Evernote 
> or TiddlyWiki, but most people are overwhelmed 

[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[Charlie Veniot]

G'day,

We could say that every single TiddlyWiki instance out there is an Edition 
of TiddlyWiki.

I think a directory of editions would be cool, but even better (to me): a 
directory of TiddlyWiki instances/examples/purposes out there in the wild 
(available for all to study/copy.)

That would be pretty cool.  I can't help but think that every TiddlyWiki 
instance out there is a TiddlyWiki use case marketing gem.

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 6:59:14 AM UTC-3, Birthe C wrote:
>
> TT,
>
> Well, It was rather difficult not to hear or read about RoamResearch 
> everywhere, that is also the case now, just not as positive, many finding 
> alternatives. That might have to do with pricing but not only. 
> https://yetidistro.com/roam/ I know that is rather old now, but still 
> somebody earned nicely writing how to use RoamResearch. 
> Especially the paragraph, it being so hard to use,, that once people learn 
> how to use it, they keep talking about it and writing about it...collecting 
> material about it.
>
> At least that part we do too, don't you think?
>
> I think people have difficulty envisioning, what Tiddlywiki can be used 
> for. Editions might be some of the answer, but not only. To me it seems 
> that everyone might like one edition, if only it was special tailored for 
> that one person.  We have often been told that people do not have time for 
> that. As far as I know no one has unlimited time.
>
> New users often ask for documentation or is this added to the manual? That 
> after endless threads often repeated about documentation. Not that simple.
>
>
> Birthe
>
>
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Ed

HA! Most interesting!

I followed that through to this: 
https://first1000.substack.com/p/roam-research

It is revealing on the HOW of attention to Roam, but also, implicitly, the 
motivation to wrest some "control" by it for it.

Many thanks
TT

On Friday, 18 September 2020 14:40:36 UTC+2, Ed Heil wrote:
>
> I ran across a thread on Twitter a little while back which pointed out 
> that Roam's popularity first exploded among the so-called "Rationalist" 
> community on the internet (associated with the websites LessWrong and 
> SlateStarCodex).
>
> https://twitter.com/melissamcewen/status/1277465062010163200
>
> On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 5:27:17 AM UTC-4 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>> David Gifford wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess you will all need to blame me. 
>>>
>>
>> Nah. It was good & opened a lot of useful directions for TW.
>> Power to your elbow & its active greasing.
>>
>> MY point in the OP is that (a) the concepts Roam advances are NOT new; 
>> (b) that its approach plays on concepts of linkage that are (i) well worn; 
>> (ii) packaged to look innovative; (c) TW can DO all of them and more, no 
>> problem (which your Strolling showed). It is not a big deal. I care less 
>> they make money from that than *consume informational space*.
>>
>> IMO the underlying issue is that, generally, on web, there is a very poor 
>> depiction/explanation of link/tag strategies, Despite their ubiquity & 
>> necessity. And that marketing of some non-linear solutions exploits that 
>> fact.
>>
>> Better concepts are needed. And *LEAFED* (i.e. the process of grown 
>> differentiation from interacting primitives to redolent outcomes) examples 
>> in TW would aid that AND help promote TW.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> TT
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[Ed Heil]

I ran across a thread on Twitter a little while back which pointed out that 
Roam's popularity first exploded among the so-called "Rationalist" 
community on the internet (associated with the websites LessWrong and 
SlateStarCodex).

https://twitter.com/melissamcewen/status/1277465062010163200

On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 5:27:17 AM UTC-4 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

> David Gifford wrote:
>>
>> I guess you will all need to blame me. 
>>
>
> Nah. It was good & opened a lot of useful directions for TW.
> Power to your elbow & its active greasing.
>
> MY point in the OP is that (a) the concepts Roam advances are NOT new; (b) 
> that its approach plays on concepts of linkage that are (i) well worn; (ii) 
> packaged to look innovative; (c) TW can DO all of them and more, no problem 
> (which your Strolling showed). It is not a big deal. I care less they make 
> money from that than *consume informational space*.
>
> IMO the underlying issue is that, generally, on web, there is a very poor 
> depiction/explanation of link/tag strategies, Despite their ubiquity & 
> necessity. And that marketing of some non-linear solutions exploits that 
> fact.
>
> Better concepts are needed. And *LEAFED* (i.e. the process of grown 
> differentiation from interacting primitives to redolent outcomes) examples 
> in TW would aid that AND help promote TW.
>
> Best wishes
> TT
>

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[TiddlyTweeter]

David Gifford wrote:
>
> I guess you will all need to blame me. 
>

Nah. It was good & opened a lot of useful directions for TW.
Power to your elbow & its active greasing.

MY point in the OP is that (a) the concepts Roam advances are NOT new; (b) 
that its approach plays on concepts of linkage that are (i) well worn; (ii) 
packaged to look innovative; (c) TW can DO all of them and more, no problem 
(which your Strolling showed). It is not a big deal. I care less they make 
money from that than *consume informational space*.

IMO the underlying issue is that, generally, on web, there is a very poor 
depiction/explanation of link/tag strategies, Despite their ubiquity & 
necessity. And that marketing of some non-linear solutions exploits that 
fact.

Better concepts are needed. And *LEAFED* (i.e. the process of grown 
differentiation from interacting primitives to redolent outcomes) examples 
in TW would aid that AND help promote TW.

Best wishes
TT

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe C wrote:
>
>
> I think people have difficulty envisioning, what Tiddlywiki can be used 
> for. Editions might be some of the answer, but not only. To me it seems 
> that everyone might like one edition, if only it was special tailored for 
> that one person.  
>

Interesting post. One that COULD be answered practically, I think. For 
example ... 

*Q: Is there such a thing as an appropriate TW application for 
mathematicians? *


*A: YES. There is starting application for mathematicians that includes 
formula & maths notation via laTEX; good dynamic calculation is inbuilt but 
can also be extended.*


*The point is this*: Are there DISCRETE enough markets like 
"mathematicians"? IF SO it would be easy enough to address them by FIELD.

Best wishes
TT
 

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Rika

Very good, full, detailed response that illustrates the issues well. Such 
detail is good.

A *chain of influence* you lay out very well (Anne-Laure :: Roam, for 
example). This is a great illustration of how users read & respond to 
*encountered 
information*.

My point, in the OP, was two things (a) Roam isn't  particularly 
innovative; BUT (b) its can look innovative BECAUSE the net is basically a 
mess on "concepts" of what it is doing. It is all over the shop.

I think TW, being AGNOSTIC on linking/tagging, could help heal that mess 
but showing MANY apps that work in different ways for different aims using 
variant "link strategies". But WE are NOT good yet at promoting PACKAGED  
SOLUTIONS.

I think accounts like yours are essential to understand real user needs & 
address them

Best wishes
TT

On Friday, 18 September 2020 01:10:59 UTC+2, Rika Sukenik wrote:
>
> Hi all. 
> If I may, I'd like to chime in. I'm a new Tiddlywiki user and I've also 
> been a Roam user for several months. Both are wonderful products. I think - 
> at least for right now - there is space for both tools in the knowledge 
> management ecosystem. I think it would be helpful if I provide my personal 
> experience using Roam & Tiddlywiki, in the hopes of shedding light on each 
> product's strengths and weaknesses and how to potentially think about 
> forging a path ahead. 
>
> Let me start by explaining how I roamed onto Roam. I was doing some 
> serendipitous Internet searching on neuroscience. I don't remember the 
> details of what I was searching fo,  but I stumbled on Anne-Laure's blog, 
> so I must have had used some keywords associated with motivation or 
> productivity. Through Anne-Laure's writing, I discovered Roam (I also 
> discovered TiddlyWiki through Anne-Laure's article(s)). I was intrigued. I 
> fell down the rabbit hole of seemingly endless Roam tutorials and content. 
> It was overwhelming, but super exciting because Roam exposed me to new 
> ideas that I had not heard of before. I know some folks have made the claim 
> that these ideas are not new - I agree; but, they were new to me. Roam's 
> content was my gateway to these ideas. Switching gears to my experience 
> using Roam, in short, it's pretty clunky. It's not a beautiful and seamless 
> user experience like Notion or Evernote. In fact, there's not even a mobile 
> app. It requires some coding knowledge to understand how to use it. Again, 
> it's clunky. I'm not happy about paying the subscription fee, but I'm 
> biting the bullet because the community brings me value. I've learned a 
> lot. 
>
> Enter Tiddlywiki. I was pumped when I discovered it through Anne-Laure 
> because it seemed like I could use it to create a digital garden that 
> resembles Andy Matuschak's Notes 
> . Transcluding pop-ups 
> is super cool, and Roam doesn't have that feature. I found it quite simple 
> to implement in Tidlywiki once I got the hang of things. For me, 
> personally, the learning curve to use Tiddlywiki was much higher than Roam. 
> For example, I didn't need to learn how to host a website with Roam so I 
> could save my work. As far as using Tiddlywiki, an empty Tiddler looks like 
> just like a blog post. Tiddlywiki seems like a really nifty way to host 
> your own blog.  With a vibrant open-source community, a person could figure 
> out how to modify the styling and turn it into a really cool personal 
> homepage. You can't do the same with Roam. I'm not going to share my Roam 
> database with the public. It would be like sharing my Google Drive 
> journals. Valuable content, but it lacks the look & feel of a blog. 
>
> I hope to have expressed that I think Tiddlywiki & Roam have their own 
> unique space in the knowledge management ecosystem.  One key point is that 
> Roam, unlike Tiddlywiki, is a for-profit company that has already found 
> monetization. They also now have investors to appease. Who knows what 
> direction this may take them in. Roam's future is far from certain. Some 
> questions that come to mind are, 1) will they be able to continue 
> attracting new users? maybe, but they probably need to make Roam more user 
> friendly; 2) will they continue to engage their current users? maybe, but 
> they'll need to push out exciting new features to justify the subscription 
> cost. Tiddlywiki's strength lies in its open source nature. When I think of 
> Tiddlywiki, I think of platforms like Roku & Android that enable any dev to 
> build on them and as a result these platforms have lots of apps and lots of 
> users. The potential is there for both apps, and there is plenty of 
> potential market share to go around. Most people don't use Roam or Evernote 
> or TiddlyWiki, but most people are overwhelmed with information and would 
> get a lot of benefit from using a knowledge management product that is 
> useful, innovative, and easy to use. ✌️
>
> On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 

[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[TW Tones]

Rika

Thanks for sharing your view here. I think you touch on something 
Important, the revolution who's time has come, is the democratisation of 
Information Technology. Giving the users the ability to craft their own 
environment at a minimum to store and retrieve there own content, for 
personal or public consumption.  Few people write code and can craft their 
own solutions. Commercial products refine this and present MVP Minimum 
viable products that evolve quickly, however while users may impact the 
evolution somewhat, you buy into their model and priorities. This is an 
aspect of cloud apps not too many have realised yet, they are shiny, 
attractive and easy to use, in part because the are focused or dumbed down 
somewhat. This is good for many people at least initially, but one does 
become dependant of the provider, so a key requirement must be you can 
export your data without loosing too much information.

Personally for me however I have the advantage of a career in IT and more 
recently Knowledge and Information management, so to me tiddlywiki is a 
platform that evolves and I can evolve myself even if the community 
stopped. I can own and host it myself, use it offline, duplicate, spawn, 
interrelate etc... You could say I have embraced the democratisation of 
software and the commercial products do not have much to offer me any more, 
except perhaps hosting and sharing content on the internet in a 
multi-user/access form. A gap I continue to work on (as others do).

"Horses for courses", it all depends on our personal journey.

Regards
Tones

On Friday, 18 September 2020 09:10:59 UTC+10, Rika Sukenik wrote:
>
> Hi all. 
> If I may, I'd like to chime in. I'm a new Tiddlywiki user and I've also 
> been a Roam user for several months. Both are wonderful products. I think - 
> at least for right now - there is space for both tools in the knowledge 
> management ecosystem. I think it would be helpful if I provide my personal 
> experience using Roam & Tiddlywiki, in the hopes of shedding light on each 
> product's strengths and weaknesses and how to potentially think about 
> forging a path ahead. 
>
> Let me start by explaining how I roamed onto Roam. I was doing some 
> serendipitous Internet searching on neuroscience. I don't remember the 
> details of what I was searching fo,  but I stumbled on Anne-Laure's blog, 
> so I must have had used some keywords associated with motivation or 
> productivity. Through Anne-Laure's writing, I discovered Roam (I also 
> discovered TiddlyWiki through Anne-Laure's article(s)). I was intrigued. I 
> fell down the rabbit hole of seemingly endless Roam tutorials and content. 
> It was overwhelming, but super exciting because Roam exposed me to new 
> ideas that I had not heard of before. I know some folks have made the claim 
> that these ideas are not new - I agree; but, they were new to me. Roam's 
> content was my gateway to these ideas. Switching gears to my experience 
> using Roam, in short, it's pretty clunky. It's not a beautiful and seamless 
> user experience like Notion or Evernote. In fact, there's not even a mobile 
> app. It requires some coding knowledge to understand how to use it. Again, 
> it's clunky. I'm not happy about paying the subscription fee, but I'm 
> biting the bullet because the community brings me value. I've learned a 
> lot. 
>
> Enter Tiddlywiki. I was pumped when I discovered it through Anne-Laure 
> because it seemed like I could use it to create a digital garden that 
> resembles Andy Matuschak's Notes 
> . Transcluding pop-ups 
> is super cool, and Roam doesn't have that feature. I found it quite simple 
> to implement in Tidlywiki once I got the hang of things. For me, 
> personally, the learning curve to use Tiddlywiki was much higher than Roam. 
> For example, I didn't need to learn how to host a website with Roam so I 
> could save my work. As far as using Tiddlywiki, an empty Tiddler looks like 
> just like a blog post. Tiddlywiki seems like a really nifty way to host 
> your own blog.  With a vibrant open-source community, a person could figure 
> out how to modify the styling and turn it into a really cool personal 
> homepage. You can't do the same with Roam. I'm not going to share my Roam 
> database with the public. It would be like sharing my Google Drive 
> journals. Valuable content, but it lacks the look & feel of a blog. 
>
> I hope to have expressed that I think Tiddlywiki & Roam have their own 
> unique space in the knowledge management ecosystem.  One key point is that 
> Roam, unlike Tiddlywiki, is a for-profit company that has already found 
> monetization. They also now have investors to appease. Who knows what 
> direction this may take them in. Roam's future is far from certain. Some 
> questions that come to mind are, 1) will they be able to continue 
> attracting new users? maybe, but they probably need to make Roam more user 
> friendly; 2) will 

[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[Rika Sukenik]

Hi all. 
If I may, I'd like to chime in. I'm a new Tiddlywiki user and I've also 
been a Roam user for several months. Both are wonderful products. I think - 
at least for right now - there is space for both tools in the knowledge 
management ecosystem. I think it would be helpful if I provide my personal 
experience using Roam & Tiddlywiki, in the hopes of shedding light on each 
product's strengths and weaknesses and how to potentially think about 
forging a path ahead. 

Let me start by explaining how I roamed onto Roam. I was doing some 
serendipitous Internet searching on neuroscience. I don't remember the 
details of what I was searching fo,  but I stumbled on Anne-Laure's blog, 
so I must have had used some keywords associated with motivation or 
productivity. Through Anne-Laure's writing, I discovered Roam (I also 
discovered TiddlyWiki through Anne-Laure's article(s)). I was intrigued. I 
fell down the rabbit hole of seemingly endless Roam tutorials and content. 
It was overwhelming, but super exciting because Roam exposed me to new 
ideas that I had not heard of before. I know some folks have made the claim 
that these ideas are not new - I agree; but, they were new to me. Roam's 
content was my gateway to these ideas. Switching gears to my experience 
using Roam, in short, it's pretty clunky. It's not a beautiful and seamless 
user experience like Notion or Evernote. In fact, there's not even a mobile 
app. It requires some coding knowledge to understand how to use it. Again, 
it's clunky. I'm not happy about paying the subscription fee, but I'm 
biting the bullet because the community brings me value. I've learned a 
lot. 

Enter Tiddlywiki. I was pumped when I discovered it through Anne-Laure 
because it seemed like I could use it to create a digital garden that 
resembles Andy Matuschak's Notes 
. Transcluding pop-ups 
is super cool, and Roam doesn't have that feature. I found it quite simple 
to implement in Tidlywiki once I got the hang of things. For me, 
personally, the learning curve to use Tiddlywiki was much higher than Roam. 
For example, I didn't need to learn how to host a website with Roam so I 
could save my work. As far as using Tiddlywiki, an empty Tiddler looks like 
just like a blog post. Tiddlywiki seems like a really nifty way to host 
your own blog.  With a vibrant open-source community, a person could figure 
out how to modify the styling and turn it into a really cool personal 
homepage. You can't do the same with Roam. I'm not going to share my Roam 
database with the public. It would be like sharing my Google Drive 
journals. Valuable content, but it lacks the look & feel of a blog. 

I hope to have expressed that I think Tiddlywiki & Roam have their own 
unique space in the knowledge management ecosystem.  One key point is that 
Roam, unlike Tiddlywiki, is a for-profit company that has already found 
monetization. They also now have investors to appease. Who knows what 
direction this may take them in. Roam's future is far from certain. Some 
questions that come to mind are, 1) will they be able to continue 
attracting new users? maybe, but they probably need to make Roam more user 
friendly; 2) will they continue to engage their current users? maybe, but 
they'll need to push out exciting new features to justify the subscription 
cost. Tiddlywiki's strength lies in its open source nature. When I think of 
Tiddlywiki, I think of platforms like Roku & Android that enable any dev to 
build on them and as a result these platforms have lots of apps and lots of 
users. The potential is there for both apps, and there is plenty of 
potential market share to go around. Most people don't use Roam or Evernote 
or TiddlyWiki, but most people are overwhelmed with information and would 
get a lot of benefit from using a knowledge management product that is 
useful, innovative, and easy to use. ✌️

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 11:58:06 AM UTC-7 David Gifford wrote:

> Thanks strikke, my comment about blaming me for the recent emphasis on 
> Roam in the TiddlyWiki community was tongue in cheek, since TiddlyTweeter's 
> post title was that Roam is a negative influence - NOT a model, overrated, 
> and just out for the money.
>
> On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 10:44:38 AM UTC-5 strikke...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> LOL, blame you, why? Stroll is great and a lot of new users learned about 
>> the existence of Tiddlywiki. Some got inspired and created variants and I 
>> would not be surprised if a lot of us are using some of your goodies too in 
>> other wikis. (I know I am).
>>
>> You have had lots of work following up on all the questions and creating 
>> collections for Goodies, very well done. The tutorial part of Stroll we can 
>> all learn from.
>>
>> The important thing is, that there is something for everyone and that 
>> also goes for money or no money. Most people need to take notes.
>>
>>
>> Birthe
>>
>

[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[David Gifford]

Thanks strikke, my comment about blaming me for the recent emphasis on Roam 
in the TiddlyWiki community was tongue in cheek, since TiddlyTweeter's post 
title was that Roam is a negative influence - NOT a model, overrated, and 
just out for the money.

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 10:44:38 AM UTC-5 strikke...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> David,
>
> LOL, blame you, why? Stroll is great and a lot of new users learned about 
> the existence of Tiddlywiki. Some got inspired and created variants and I 
> would not be surprised if a lot of us are using some of your goodies too in 
> other wikis. (I know I am).
>
> You have had lots of work following up on all the questions and creating 
> collections for Goodies, very well done. The tutorial part of Stroll we can 
> all learn from.
>
> The important thing is, that there is something for everyone and that also 
> goes for money or no money. Most people need to take notes.
>
>
> Birthe
>

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[Birthe C]

David,

LOL, blame you, why? Stroll is great and a lot of new users learned about 
the existence of Tiddlywiki. Some got inspired and created variants and I 
would not be surprised if a lot of us are using some of your goodies too in 
other wikis. (I know I am).

You have had lots of work following up on all the questions and creating 
collections for Goodies, very well done. The tutorial part of Stroll we can 
all learn from.

The important thing is, that there is something for everyone and that also 
goes for money or no money. Most people need to take notes.


Birthe

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[David Gifford]

I guess you will all need to blame me. I was the one who used Roam as a 
model first, and got this ball rolling. TiddlyBlink/Stroll was just an 
experiment to see how much of Roam I could replicate in TW. Saq was a big 
help there. When I saw it worked pretty good I promoted it on Twitter by 
adding Roam's Twitter tag. Then Anne-Laure got hold of it and it took off. 
And when Roam got rid of the free beta, there was another wave of interest 
of people looking for free alternatives, and a couple videos on Youtube 
helped.

I am kind of letting Stroll die a slow death because to me it was just an 
experiment, and I feel like the experiment succeeded; I don't have time to 
add new features and keep its momentum growing; and there are other good 
options now like Drift and TiddlyResearch. The existence of those options, 
and the continued positive feedback I get on Stroll, tells me I was onto 
something.

Back to Roam: it is an ingenious combination of concepts: outliner, 
granular backlinking, mindmap, autocompletion, automatic page generation, 
automatic journal entry for the day, side-by-side pages, a bunch of easy to 
use "macros" and filters. And they have only begun. Users are now creating 
CSS themes. I played with that and enjoyed it. There has been a lot of 
thought behind this, marketed it intelligently, and they know where they 
want to go with it. They deserve the praise, and the money, they get.

Just because the Roam creators are making money and getting investors, and 
we are open source and are less known, doesn't mean they are doing anything 
wrong. Just because some of their features have been around for years, many 
of them in TiddlyWiki, doesn't make their unique integration of those 
features any less amazing. Every day I read new tweets of people hooked on 
Roam. TT's post feels like it came out of envy rather than from an attempt 
to say something constructive. 

If there is any envy or sadness on my part, it's that TiddlyWiki really 
could have had that number of users, even a few years ago, had there been a 
sustained interest in onboarding and documentation rather than just random 
spurts. I might have been willing to take more stabs at that, (I *did* do 
some non-techy documentation in 2014 that is still there in tw.com), but to 
me the complicated problem of saving made me give up the idea of promoting 
TW to the general public. I knew most non-techy potential users would be 
turned off by something for which the first step would be to figure out 
which of 40 options for saving they should use. Timimi seems like a good 
game changer, it works great, but even Timimi requires several steps to 
install. Thanks to Timimi, though, I am thinking again about doing some 
introductory Youtube tutorials in Spanish for TiddlyWiki.

As for me and Roam, I went in a week or two ago to try it out, to see if I 
really ought to commit to it, mainly because of the value of granular 
line-by-line backlinks, but utimately decided to stick with TiddlyWiki and 
Dynalist. I use Dynalist for when I need to generate and organize thoughts 
really quickly. I use TiddlyWiki for everything else. For my purposes, that 
is enough. 

And you can bet something will come along in a year or two that will wow 
people even more than Roam. What Roam did to Notion, something else will do 
to Roam.

Anyway, a number of disconnected thoughts to offer a balance to TT's 
original post. No less love for him, though. Blessings.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 12:34:06 PM UTC-5 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

> See my Tweets ...
>
> @RoamResearch  way OVERRATED. The 
>> concepts it advances are NOT new. It is basically leveraging a loss of 
>> memory for profit. 
>> https://twitter.com/BeaBonobo/status/1305918780145635328
>
>
>
> Thought is as thought does. Technology interacts with it. 
>
> That reflexive process is enabling (or crippling in bad tech). 
>
> #TiddlyWiki  basic is 
>> AGNOSTIC on HOW humans use it to make meanings. 
>
> That is a great quality. MOST other non-linear systems are OVER-commited 
>> on.
>
>  https://twitter.com/BeaBonobo/status/1305917906316910592
>>
>
> Best wishes
> TT 
>

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[Birthe C]

TT,

Well, It was rather difficult not to hear or read about RoamResearch 
everywhere, that is also the case now, just not as positive, many finding 
alternatives. That might have to do with pricing but not only. 
https://yetidistro.com/roam/ I know that is rather old now, but still 
somebody earned nicely writing how to use RoamResearch. 
Especially the paragraph, it being so hard to use,, that once people learn 
how to use it, they keep talking about it and writing about it...collecting 
material about it.

At least that part we do too, don't you think?

I think people have difficulty envisioning, what Tiddlywiki can be used 
for. Editions might be some of the answer, but not only. To me it seems 
that everyone might like one edition, if only it was special tailored for 
that one person.  We have often been told that people do not have time for 
that. As far as I know no one has unlimited time.

New users often ask for documentation or is this added to the manual? That 
after endless threads often repeated about documentation. Not that simple.


Birthe




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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe

Right. Roam got us users. So thanks. Though slightly qualified.

More interesting, I think, is the issue of  *HOW Roam got known?*
Was that marketing? Or serendipity? Dimmi (tell me).

We COULD promote TW more I think. We don't do much. 

A brilliant system for insiders is never knowable without some activating 
of public facing.,
Its NOT as easy as it may at first sound.

But, any ideas?

Best wishes
TT

On Tuesday, 15 September 2020 at 20:24:19 UTC+2 strikke...@gmail.com wrote:

> TT,
>
> That might be, but RoamResearch has send a lot of new users to tiddlywiki. 
> We have often discussed how to get new users, we should  be thankful for 
> that good effect.
>
> You have been so quiet lately, that I was starting to worry.
>
> Birthe
>
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Tones

Philosophy is very good in this situation.

LINKAGE & TAGGING on the net generally is (1) seriously under-conceived; 
and (2) badly explained (because the language we are using LACKS needed 
differentiations). Philosophy (the art of deriving new working concepts) 
helps.

TT

On Wednesday, 16 September 2020 at 02:01:59 UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:

> TT,
>
> I love that
> A Girl Called "Cat"
> @BeaBonobo
> 
> ·
> 6h 
> @RoamResearch 
> way OVERRATED. The concepts it advances are NOT new. It is basically 
> leveraging a loss of memory for profit.
>
> Yes this occurs all over the place , I remember Edward De Bono 
> getting/claiming credit for ideas from Systems theory 20-50 years earlier.
>
> In two weeks I am doing a short talk with my Philosophy group in the loss 
> of memory, not personal but cultural, historical and corporate knowledge. 
> This is a wonderful example to include thanks
>
> Tones
>
> On Wednesday, 16 September 2020 03:34:06 UTC+10, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> See my Tweets ...
>>
>> @RoamResearch  way OVERRATED. The 
>>> concepts it advances are NOT new. It is basically leveraging a loss of 
>>> memory for profit. 
>>> https://twitter.com/BeaBonobo/status/1305918780145635328
>>
>>
>>
>> Thought is as thought does. Technology interacts with it. 
>>
>> That reflexive process is enabling (or crippling in bad tech). 
>>
>> #TiddlyWiki  basic is 
>>> AGNOSTIC on HOW humans use it to make meanings. 
>>
>> That is a great quality. MOST other non-linear systems are OVER-commited 
>>> on.
>>
>>  https://twitter.com/BeaBonobo/status/1305917906316910592
>>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>> TT 
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[TW Tones]

TT,

I love that
A Girl Called "Cat"
@BeaBonobo

·
6h 
@RoamResearch 
way OVERRATED. The concepts it advances are NOT new. It is basically 
leveraging a loss of memory for profit.

Yes this occurs all over the place , I remember Edward De Bono 
getting/claiming credit for ideas from Systems theory 20-50 years earlier.

In two weeks I am doing a short talk with my Philosophy group in the loss 
of memory, not personal but cultural, historical and corporate knowledge. 
This is a wonderful example to include thanks

Tones

On Wednesday, 16 September 2020 03:34:06 UTC+10, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> See my Tweets ...
>
> @RoamResearch  way OVERRATED. The 
>> concepts it advances are NOT new. It is basically leveraging a loss of 
>> memory for profit. 
>> https://twitter.com/BeaBonobo/status/1305918780145635328
>
>
>
> Thought is as thought does. Technology interacts with it. 
>
> That reflexive process is enabling (or crippling in bad tech). 
>
> #TiddlyWiki  basic is 
>> AGNOSTIC on HOW humans use it to make meanings. 
>
> That is a great quality. MOST other non-linear systems are OVER-commited 
>> on.
>
>  https://twitter.com/BeaBonobo/status/1305917906316910592
>>
>
> Best wishes
> TT 
>

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[tw5] Re: Roam Research is NOT a model. It's a money machine.

[Birthe C]

TT,

That might be, but RoamResearch has send a lot of new users to tiddlywiki. 
We have often discussed how to get new users, we should  be thankful for 
that good effect.

You have been so quiet lately, that I was starting to worry.

Birthe



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