Re: [tw5] Re: Better indexes through semantic modeling

[Joshua Fontany]

Good discussion. I have been experimenting with dynamically generating 
Indexes from individual Tiddlers in my Martial-Arts wiki.

https://silat.chronicles.wiki/#Glossary

I had to set that aside for my real-time multiplayer experiments, but hope 
to get back to UI work soon.

Best,
Joshua Fontany

On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 9:21:46 AM UTC-7 springer wrote:

> Ah, I believe that techniques like "extracting introductions" might even 
> have developed in tandem with a need I had, way back -- to have a list of 
> "quick definitions" that displayed only the title and first line of each 
> definition-tagged tiddler while dropping any further content of text field 
> (examples, discussion). That technique started back in TW Classic days, 
> though, before we *had* such powerful use of fields!
>
> Mostly I'm leaning toward using fields now for any kind of structured info 
> (such as summary), and transcluding those fields (or using distinctive 
> ViewTemplate sections) as needed. 
>
> Still, there's something to be said for the writing practice of crafting 
> the first line of an entry to serve as a helpful summary (often revised 
> after writing out the actual content). For certain use-cases, that kind of 
> discipline helps both readers and writers, and of course it's especially 
> compatible with off-the-shelf search behavior.
>
> -Springer
> On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:24 PM UTC-4 Mohammad wrote:
>
>> Hi Springer!
>> The conditional summary needs a summary field! This is what Soren 
>> explained and is a good approach!
>>
>> I mean Extracting Introduction From Tiddlers: 
>> https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Extracting%20Introductions%20From%20Tiddlers
>> It lets you use the same standard searchbox!
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Mohammad
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 8:31 PM springer  wrote:
>>
>>> Mohammad, By "Tobias Beer's method" do you mean the one here:
>>> https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Conditional%20Summary
>>> ?
>>>
>>> That's quite similar to what I use. In fact, I like to create visually 
>>> distinctive ViewTemplate sections for various fields, iff the fields are 
>>> populated. Since I often use tiddlers to hold excerpts, and want to put 
>>> nothing in the text there field apart from the excerpt itself, a 
>>> conditional view template for the "notes" field --  displaying in a 
>>> contrasting box below the text content if and only if I've added notes -- 
>>> was the first such field-based auto-include that I found indispensable. 
>>>
>>> -Springer
>>>
>>> On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 7:43:09 AM UTC-4 Mohammad wrote:
>>>
 Springer


 On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 4:01 AM springer  wrote:

> Soren,
>
> In your "better indexes" essay you write:
> If we do have the full text included in each locus, we may want to 
> write a summary anyway and store it along with the full text: this way, 
> we’ll be able to create an outline later and more easily see what parts 
> of 
> the document we’re hopping between.
>
> And it reminds me how certain enlightenment texts were printed with a 
> running outer-margin summary distilling key points (and of course the 
> cognitive work of spelling out those side-notes is considerable!). For 
> example, see the side-notes starting at p 49 (pdf-pagination) on this 
> Adam 
> Smith manuscript: 
> https://oll-resources.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/oll3/store/titles/237/0206-01_Bk.pdf
>
> For some tiddlywiki projects, I've started to employ a super-condensed 
> summary field (call it, say, the tldr field) that can be displayed for 
> certain purposes. Unlike the main body of the tiddler, the tldr is 
> text-only, maximum of a single sentence. (And if I can't summarize the 
> tiddler in one sentence, then it needs to be more than one tiddler. ;) ) 
> Of 
> course, the fact that tw's standard search interface doesn't peek beyond 
> title and text field means this solution requires some building-around to 
> be useful. 
>

 I would recommend Tobias Beer method for creating a description, 
 Summary!
 Also in kookma utility there is a find macro (it has been published 
 separately, see find macro in kookma GitHub page) which can simply extract 
 the summary/description part and you can still use the standard 
 searchbox by Tiddlywiki


  

>
> Overall, I'm enjoying your essay and its questions!
>
> -Springer
> On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 9:17:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:
>
>> Some of you all might be interested in this new post on my blog:
>>
>>
>> https://controlaltbackspace.org/notes/better-indexes-through-semantic-modeling/
>>
>> It's a proposal for a system for indexing large documents based on a 
>> hypertext graph, including a discussion of a possible TiddlyWiki 
>> prototype. 
>> Warning: 6,000+ words.
>>
> -- 
>
 You 

Re: [tw5] Re: Better indexes through semantic modeling

[springer]

Ah, I believe that techniques like "extracting introductions" might even 
have developed in tandem with a need I had, way back -- to have a list of 
"quick definitions" that displayed only the title and first line of each 
definition-tagged tiddler while dropping any further content of text field 
(examples, discussion). That technique started back in TW Classic days, 
though, before we *had* such powerful use of fields!

Mostly I'm leaning toward using fields now for any kind of structured info 
(such as summary), and transcluding those fields (or using distinctive 
ViewTemplate sections) as needed. 

Still, there's something to be said for the writing practice of crafting 
the first line of an entry to serve as a helpful summary (often revised 
after writing out the actual content). For certain use-cases, that kind of 
discipline helps both readers and writers, and of course it's especially 
compatible with off-the-shelf search behavior.

-Springer
On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:24 PM UTC-4 Mohammad wrote:

> Hi Springer!
> The conditional summary needs a summary field! This is what Soren 
> explained and is a good approach!
>
> I mean Extracting Introduction From Tiddlers: 
> https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Extracting%20Introductions%20From%20Tiddlers
> It lets you use the same standard searchbox!
>
>
> Best wishes
> Mohammad
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 8:31 PM springer  wrote:
>
>> Mohammad, By "Tobias Beer's method" do you mean the one here:
>> https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Conditional%20Summary
>> ?
>>
>> That's quite similar to what I use. In fact, I like to create visually 
>> distinctive ViewTemplate sections for various fields, iff the fields are 
>> populated. Since I often use tiddlers to hold excerpts, and want to put 
>> nothing in the text there field apart from the excerpt itself, a 
>> conditional view template for the "notes" field --  displaying in a 
>> contrasting box below the text content if and only if I've added notes -- 
>> was the first such field-based auto-include that I found indispensable. 
>>
>> -Springer
>>
>> On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 7:43:09 AM UTC-4 Mohammad wrote:
>>
>>> Springer
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 4:01 AM springer  wrote:
>>>
 Soren,

 In your "better indexes" essay you write:
 If we do have the full text included in each locus, we may want to 
 write a summary anyway and store it along with the full text: this way, 
 we’ll be able to create an outline later and more easily see what parts of 
 the document we’re hopping between.

 And it reminds me how certain enlightenment texts were printed with a 
 running outer-margin summary distilling key points (and of course the 
 cognitive work of spelling out those side-notes is considerable!). For 
 example, see the side-notes starting at p 49 (pdf-pagination) on this Adam 
 Smith manuscript: 
 https://oll-resources.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/oll3/store/titles/237/0206-01_Bk.pdf

 For some tiddlywiki projects, I've started to employ a super-condensed 
 summary field (call it, say, the tldr field) that can be displayed for 
 certain purposes. Unlike the main body of the tiddler, the tldr is 
 text-only, maximum of a single sentence. (And if I can't summarize the 
 tiddler in one sentence, then it needs to be more than one tiddler. ;) ) 
 Of 
 course, the fact that tw's standard search interface doesn't peek beyond 
 title and text field means this solution requires some building-around to 
 be useful. 

>>>
>>> I would recommend Tobias Beer method for creating a description, Summary!
>>> Also in kookma utility there is a find macro (it has been published 
>>> separately, see find macro in kookma GitHub page) which can simply extract 
>>> the summary/description part and you can still use the standard 
>>> searchbox by Tiddlywiki
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>

 Overall, I'm enjoying your essay and its questions!

 -Springer
 On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 9:17:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:

> Some of you all might be interested in this new post on my blog:
>
>
> https://controlaltbackspace.org/notes/better-indexes-through-semantic-modeling/
>
> It's a proposal for a system for indexing large documents based on a 
> hypertext graph, including a discussion of a possible TiddlyWiki 
> prototype. 
> Warning: 6,000+ words.
>
 -- 

>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
 Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
 an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
 https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/96e1e06c-130c-447f-812b-a1d5ac0116e2n%40googlegroups.com
  
 

Re: [tw5] Re: Better indexes through semantic modeling

[Mohammad Rahmani]

Hi Springer!
The conditional summary needs a summary field! This is what Soren explained
and is a good approach!

I mean Extracting Introduction From Tiddlers:
https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Extracting%20Introductions%20From%20Tiddlers
It lets you use the same standard searchbox!


Best wishes
Mohammad


On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 8:31 PM springer  wrote:

> Mohammad, By "Tobias Beer's method" do you mean the one here:
> https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Conditional%20Summary
> ?
>
> That's quite similar to what I use. In fact, I like to create visually
> distinctive ViewTemplate sections for various fields, iff the fields are
> populated. Since I often use tiddlers to hold excerpts, and want to put
> nothing in the text there field apart from the excerpt itself, a
> conditional view template for the "notes" field --  displaying in a
> contrasting box below the text content if and only if I've added notes --
> was the first such field-based auto-include that I found indispensable.
>
> -Springer
>
> On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 7:43:09 AM UTC-4 Mohammad wrote:
>
>> Springer
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 4:01 AM springer  wrote:
>>
>>> Soren,
>>>
>>> In your "better indexes" essay you write:
>>> If we do have the full text included in each locus, we may want to write
>>> a summary anyway and store it along with the full text: this way, we’ll be
>>> able to create an outline later and more easily see what parts of the
>>> document we’re hopping between.
>>>
>>> And it reminds me how certain enlightenment texts were printed with a
>>> running outer-margin summary distilling key points (and of course the
>>> cognitive work of spelling out those side-notes is considerable!). For
>>> example, see the side-notes starting at p 49 (pdf-pagination) on this Adam
>>> Smith manuscript:
>>> https://oll-resources.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/oll3/store/titles/237/0206-01_Bk.pdf
>>>
>>> For some tiddlywiki projects, I've started to employ a super-condensed
>>> summary field (call it, say, the tldr field) that can be displayed for
>>> certain purposes. Unlike the main body of the tiddler, the tldr is
>>> text-only, maximum of a single sentence. (And if I can't summarize the
>>> tiddler in one sentence, then it needs to be more than one tiddler. ;) ) Of
>>> course, the fact that tw's standard search interface doesn't peek beyond
>>> title and text field means this solution requires some building-around to
>>> be useful.
>>>
>>
>> I would recommend Tobias Beer method for creating a description, Summary!
>> Also in kookma utility there is a find macro (it has been published
>> separately, see find macro in kookma GitHub page) which can simply extract
>> the summary/description part and you can still use the standard
>> searchbox by Tiddlywiki
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Overall, I'm enjoying your essay and its questions!
>>>
>>> -Springer
>>> On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 9:17:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:
>>>
 Some of you all might be interested in this new post on my blog:


 https://controlaltbackspace.org/notes/better-indexes-through-semantic-modeling/

 It's a proposal for a system for indexing large documents based on a
 hypertext graph, including a discussion of a possible TiddlyWiki prototype.
 Warning: 6,000+ words.

>>> --
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/96e1e06c-130c-447f-812b-a1d5ac0116e2n%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Better indexes through semantic modeling

[springer]

Mohammad, By "Tobias Beer's method" do you mean the one here:
https://tobibeer.github.io/tb5/#Conditional%20Summary
?

That's quite similar to what I use. In fact, I like to create visually 
distinctive ViewTemplate sections for various fields, iff the fields are 
populated. Since I often use tiddlers to hold excerpts, and want to put 
nothing in the text there field apart from the excerpt itself, a 
conditional view template for the "notes" field --  displaying in a 
contrasting box below the text content if and only if I've added notes -- 
was the first such field-based auto-include that I found indispensable. 

-Springer

On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 7:43:09 AM UTC-4 Mohammad wrote:

> Springer
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 4:01 AM springer  wrote:
>
>> Soren,
>>
>> In your "better indexes" essay you write:
>> If we do have the full text included in each locus, we may want to write 
>> a summary anyway and store it along with the full text: this way, we’ll be 
>> able to create an outline later and more easily see what parts of the 
>> document we’re hopping between.
>>
>> And it reminds me how certain enlightenment texts were printed with a 
>> running outer-margin summary distilling key points (and of course the 
>> cognitive work of spelling out those side-notes is considerable!). For 
>> example, see the side-notes starting at p 49 (pdf-pagination) on this Adam 
>> Smith manuscript: 
>> https://oll-resources.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/oll3/store/titles/237/0206-01_Bk.pdf
>>
>> For some tiddlywiki projects, I've started to employ a super-condensed 
>> summary field (call it, say, the tldr field) that can be displayed for 
>> certain purposes. Unlike the main body of the tiddler, the tldr is 
>> text-only, maximum of a single sentence. (And if I can't summarize the 
>> tiddler in one sentence, then it needs to be more than one tiddler. ;) ) Of 
>> course, the fact that tw's standard search interface doesn't peek beyond 
>> title and text field means this solution requires some building-around to 
>> be useful. 
>>
>
> I would recommend Tobias Beer method for creating a description, Summary!
> Also in kookma utility there is a find macro (it has been published 
> separately, see find macro in kookma GitHub page) which can simply extract 
> the summary/description part and you can still use the standard 
> searchbox by Tiddlywiki
>
>
>  
>
>>
>> Overall, I'm enjoying your essay and its questions!
>>
>> -Springer
>> On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 9:17:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:
>>
>>> Some of you all might be interested in this new post on my blog:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://controlaltbackspace.org/notes/better-indexes-through-semantic-modeling/
>>>
>>> It's a proposal for a system for indexing large documents based on a 
>>> hypertext graph, including a discussion of a possible TiddlyWiki prototype. 
>>> Warning: 6,000+ words.
>>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
>>
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/96e1e06c-130c-447f-812b-a1d5ac0116e2n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Better indexes through semantic modeling

[Mohammad Rahmani]

Springer


On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 4:01 AM springer  wrote:

> Soren,
>
> In your "better indexes" essay you write:
> If we do have the full text included in each locus, we may want to write a
> summary anyway and store it along with the full text: this way, we’ll be
> able to create an outline later and more easily see what parts of the
> document we’re hopping between.
>
> And it reminds me how certain enlightenment texts were printed with a
> running outer-margin summary distilling key points (and of course the
> cognitive work of spelling out those side-notes is considerable!). For
> example, see the side-notes starting at p 49 (pdf-pagination) on this Adam
> Smith manuscript:
> https://oll-resources.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/oll3/store/titles/237/0206-01_Bk.pdf
>
> For some tiddlywiki projects, I've started to employ a super-condensed
> summary field (call it, say, the tldr field) that can be displayed for
> certain purposes. Unlike the main body of the tiddler, the tldr is
> text-only, maximum of a single sentence. (And if I can't summarize the
> tiddler in one sentence, then it needs to be more than one tiddler. ;) ) Of
> course, the fact that tw's standard search interface doesn't peek beyond
> title and text field means this solution requires some building-around to
> be useful.
>

I would recommend Tobias Beer method for creating a description, Summary!
Also in kookma utility there is a find macro (it has been published
separately, see find macro in kookma GitHub page) which can simply extract
the summary/description part and you can still use the standard
searchbox by Tiddlywiki




>
> Overall, I'm enjoying your essay and its questions!
>
> -Springer
> On Monday, August 9, 2021 at 9:17:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:
>
>> Some of you all might be interested in this new post on my blog:
>>
>>
>> https://controlaltbackspace.org/notes/better-indexes-through-semantic-modeling/
>>
>> It's a proposal for a system for indexing large documents based on a
>> hypertext graph, including a discussion of a possible TiddlyWiki prototype.
>> Warning: 6,000+ words.
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/96e1e06c-130c-447f-812b-a1d5ac0116e2n%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Better indexes through semantic modeling

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Soren

Thank you for sharing, as ever your writing is admirably clear and concise, and 
it's a pleasure to follow your thought processes.

I tweeted your post as TiddlyWiki:

https://twitter.com/TiddlyWiki/status/1425837197844910080

Many thanks,

Jeremy

--
Jeremy Ruston
jer...@jermolene.com
https://jermolene.com

> On 12 Aug 2021, at 08:03, PMario  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 1:31:00 AM UTC+2 springer wrote:
>> Soren,
>> 
>> In your "better indexes" essay you write:
>> If we do have the full text included in each locus, we may want to write a 
>> summary anyway and store it along with the full text: this way, we’ll be 
>> able to create an outline later and more easily see what parts of the 
>> document we’re hopping between.
>> 
>> And it reminds me how certain enlightenment texts were printed with a 
>> running outer-margin summary distilling key points (and of course the 
>> cognitive work of spelling out those side-notes is considerable!). For 
>> example, see the side-notes starting at p 49 (pdf-pagination) on this Adam 
>> Smith manuscript: 
>> https://oll-resources.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/oll3/store/titles/237/0206-01_Bk.pdf
>> 
>> For some tiddlywiki projects, I've started to employ a super-condensed 
>> summary field (call it, say, the tldr field) that can be displayed for 
>> certain purposes. Unlike the main body of the tiddler, the tldr is 
>> text-only, maximum of a single sentence. (And if I can't summarize the 
>> tiddler in one sentence, then it needs to be more than one tiddler. ;) ) Of 
>> course, the fact that tw's standard search interface doesn't peek beyond 
>> title and text field means this solution requires some building-around to be 
>> useful. 
> 
> As I did read that section, I did think in a similar direction. I was 
> thinking about a "teaser" text that is shown in "Blog overview listings". 
> Sometimes it's the first paragraph of the text itself and sometimes it is a 
> short summary, that comes later in the text. 
> 
> --
> 
> I did create a field-search plugin, that lets you configure additional fields 
> that are shown in the search results. See: 
> https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/field-search/
> 
> -mario
> -- 
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