Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Glenn Dixon]

I apologize for that horrid mess of code. Wish there was a way to edit. Oh, 
it's email. Even though I'm entering this from a web page. 

Reason # 1,475 why I hate Google Groups :(

/rant

On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 at 5:38:31 AM UTC-5 Glenn Dixon wrote:

> I guess this is what happens when you keep a project going this long...
>
> Ah it was called 
> https://twitter.com/TiddlyWiki?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw;>@TiddlyWiki 
> , and its still around. (cool!) Before mobile though it was just an 
> HTML file with js that did FS operations to rewrite itself. I think? Was 
> that even possible? beering (@endearingbrew) https://twitter.com/endearingbrew/status/1346648942134476800?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw;>January
>  
> 6, 2021 https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js"; charset="utf-8"> 
>
> As if wikis were some antique relic from the past. Well, I guess they 
> kinda are, in internet years.
>
> So I guess this would be a point for rebranding away from mentioning 
> 'wiki' at all? *shrug*
>
> On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 8:07:46 PM UTC-5 TW Tones wrote:
>
>> Jeremy et al..
>>
>> If we were to use  Xememex please tell me how to say it?,  Which 
>> syllables are emphasised?. As in my prior post the issue is ease of use and 
>> speaking. If when introducing tiddlywiki (by another name) do you really 
>> want to be forced to spell it?. With a surname like mine, "Muscio" trust me 
>> I always have to spell it and few can workout how to say it just from 
>> reading it, in fact many jumble the letters to Music-o. This is actually 
>> helpful for a surname because of various reasons, like immediate detection 
>> of people who do not know me well on the phone, but it is not good as a 
>> transmissible meme.
>>
>> My notes are about the approach not a name suggestion.
>>
>> On Quines
>>
>> *A quine is a computer program which takes no input and produces a copy 
>> of its own source code as its only output. The standard terms for these 
>> programs in the computability theory and computer science literature are 
>> self-replicating programs, self-reproducing programs, and self-copying 
>> programs.  *
>>
>> Actually this definition found with a google search, is more about 
>> "trivial quines". It is wrong for tiddlywiki, because it can accept input 
>> and although it writes itself back (With new data and functions) it can 
>> also generate many different outputs.
>>
>> I like the Quine idea and I value its relationship to TW but it is 
>> ultimately only a partial description. Perhaps *advanced Quine*? (AQ) it 
>> even has a TLD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.aq not that we could 
>> register.
>>
>> I do favor the tiddler and/or a record, I have no quibble with tiddler, 
>> as it is "self defined" and can become many different things such as a 
>> record or card. My only Quibble is with "TiddlyWiki" when talking to 
>> others, I now say "TiddlyWiki platform" to new people. But for quite 
>> similar reasons I would not be happy with Xememex although like models of 
>> cars the introduction of X makes it sound like a recent model. I would once 
>> again be inclined to say " Xememex platform". Perhaps "meme platform" is 
>> more direct?.
>>
>> Regards
>> Tones
>> On Tuesday, 5 January 2021 at 20:53:02 UTC+11 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ed
>>>
>>> Re-reading this message (and studiously avoiding making any suggestions 
>>> for new names) the idea of "targeting more modern JavaScript engines" makes 
>>> me wonder about the question of "how modern a browser do you need to have 
>>> to have a working Tiddlywiki?"  
>>>
>>> With regards to minimum browsers for TW5, according to the web site it's 
>>> "Safari version 6" (from 2012!) IE version 10 (also from 2012!) and "all 
>>> recent" Chrome, Firefox, and Firefox for Android, whatever that means, but 
>>> presumably going back comparably far.  So right now TW5 is usable in 
>>> browsers that go about 8 years back, which is nice.  And TWC support 
>>> obviously goes back way further than that.
>>>
>>> How big a change in "you need this recent a browser" would you think was 
>>> acceptable in a "Xememex" project?
>>>
>>>
>>> That would be to be decided. In 2010/1 we targeted the browsers that 
>>> were in common use at the time, and presumably we’d do the same again. 
>>> Nowadays, most browsers automatically update and so perhaps there might be 
>>> less incentive to be as conservative as we have been.
>>>
>>> From a developer perspective, HTML and CSS have actually changed 
>>> relatively little over the last 10 years, it’s in the area of JavaScript 
>>> that things have radically improved: async/await, modules, classes, etc. 
>>> Making these features available in the core will make the developers more 
>>> productive, and make it easier for developers with contemporary JavaScript 
>>> experience to join the project.
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>>
>>> Jeremy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 7:52:20 AM UTC-5 jeremy...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 As appealing 

Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Glenn Dixon]

I guess this is what happens when you keep a project going this long...

Ah it was called 
https://twitter.com/TiddlyWiki?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw;>@TiddlyWiki , 
and its still around. (cool!) Before mobile though it was just an HTML 
file with js that did FS operations to rewrite itself. I think? Was that 
even possible? beering (@endearingbrew) https://twitter.com/endearingbrew/status/1346648942134476800?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw;>January
 
6, 2021 https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js"; charset="utf-8"> 

As if wikis were some antique relic from the past. Well, I guess they kinda 
are, in internet years.

So I guess this would be a point for rebranding away from mentioning 'wiki' 
at all? *shrug*

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 8:07:46 PM UTC-5 TW Tones wrote:

> Jeremy et al..
>
> If we were to use  Xememex please tell me how to say it?,  Which syllables 
> are emphasised?. As in my prior post the issue is ease of use and speaking. 
> If when introducing tiddlywiki (by another name) do you really want to be 
> forced to spell it?. With a surname like mine, "Muscio" trust me I always 
> have to spell it and few can workout how to say it just from reading it, in 
> fact many jumble the letters to Music-o. This is actually helpful for a 
> surname because of various reasons, like immediate detection of people who 
> do not know me well on the phone, but it is not good as a transmissible 
> meme.
>
> My notes are about the approach not a name suggestion.
>
> On Quines
>
> *A quine is a computer program which takes no input and produces a copy of 
> its own source code as its only output. The standard terms for these 
> programs in the computability theory and computer science literature are 
> self-replicating programs, self-reproducing programs, and self-copying 
> programs.  *
>
> Actually this definition found with a google search, is more about 
> "trivial quines". It is wrong for tiddlywiki, because it can accept input 
> and although it writes itself back (With new data and functions) it can 
> also generate many different outputs.
>
> I like the Quine idea and I value its relationship to TW but it is 
> ultimately only a partial description. Perhaps *advanced Quine*? (AQ) it 
> even has a TLD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.aq not that we could 
> register.
>
> I do favor the tiddler and/or a record, I have no quibble with tiddler, as 
> it is "self defined" and can become many different things such as a record 
> or card. My only Quibble is with "TiddlyWiki" when talking to others, I now 
> say "TiddlyWiki platform" to new people. But for quite similar reasons I 
> would not be happy with Xememex although like models of cars the 
> introduction of X makes it sound like a recent model. I would once again be 
> inclined to say " Xememex platform". Perhaps "meme platform" is more 
> direct?.
>
> Regards
> Tones
> On Tuesday, 5 January 2021 at 20:53:02 UTC+11 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Ed
>>
>> Re-reading this message (and studiously avoiding making any suggestions 
>> for new names) the idea of "targeting more modern JavaScript engines" makes 
>> me wonder about the question of "how modern a browser do you need to have 
>> to have a working Tiddlywiki?"  
>>
>> With regards to minimum browsers for TW5, according to the web site it's 
>> "Safari version 6" (from 2012!) IE version 10 (also from 2012!) and "all 
>> recent" Chrome, Firefox, and Firefox for Android, whatever that means, but 
>> presumably going back comparably far.  So right now TW5 is usable in 
>> browsers that go about 8 years back, which is nice.  And TWC support 
>> obviously goes back way further than that.
>>
>> How big a change in "you need this recent a browser" would you think was 
>> acceptable in a "Xememex" project?
>>
>>
>> That would be to be decided. In 2010/1 we targeted the browsers that were 
>> in common use at the time, and presumably we’d do the same again. Nowadays, 
>> most browsers automatically update and so perhaps there might be less 
>> incentive to be as conservative as we have been.
>>
>> From a developer perspective, HTML and CSS have actually changed 
>> relatively little over the last 10 years, it’s in the area of JavaScript 
>> that things have radically improved: async/await, modules, classes, etc. 
>> Making these features available in the core will make the developers more 
>> productive, and make it easier for developers with contemporary JavaScript 
>> experience to join the project.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 7:52:20 AM UTC-5 jeremy...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> As appealing as this sounds, I just don't think that as a small 
>>> community we have the resources to support both, unless the intention would 
>>> be for TiddlyWiki 5 to only receive bug fix updates. 
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that would be the default, yes, unless somebody wanted to pick 
>>> up the development more purposefully.
>>>
>>> As you mention in a later reply, the real challenge 

Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[TW Tones]

Jeremy et al..

If we were to use  Xememex please tell me how to say it?,  Which syllables 
are emphasised?. As in my prior post the issue is ease of use and speaking. 
If when introducing tiddlywiki (by another name) do you really want to be 
forced to spell it?. With a surname like mine, "Muscio" trust me I always 
have to spell it and few can workout how to say it just from reading it, in 
fact many jumble the letters to Music-o. This is actually helpful for a 
surname because of various reasons, like immediate detection of people who 
do not know me well on the phone, but it is not good as a transmissible 
meme.

My notes are about the approach not a name suggestion.

On Quines

*A quine is a computer program which takes no input and produces a copy of 
its own source code as its only output. The standard terms for these 
programs in the computability theory and computer science literature are 
self-replicating programs, self-reproducing programs, and self-copying 
programs.  *

Actually this definition found with a google search, is more about "trivial 
quines". It is wrong for tiddlywiki, because it can accept input and 
although it writes itself back (With new data and functions) it can also 
generate many different outputs.

I like the Quine idea and I value its relationship to TW but it is 
ultimately only a partial description. Perhaps *advanced Quine*? (AQ) it 
even has a TLD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.aq not that we could register.

I do favor the tiddler and/or a record, I have no quibble with tiddler, as 
it is "self defined" and can become many different things such as a record 
or card. My only Quibble is with "TiddlyWiki" when talking to others, I now 
say "TiddlyWiki platform" to new people. But for quite similar reasons I 
would not be happy with Xememex although like models of cars the 
introduction of X makes it sound like a recent model. I would once again be 
inclined to say " Xememex platform". Perhaps "meme platform" is more 
direct?.

Regards
Tones
On Tuesday, 5 January 2021 at 20:53:02 UTC+11 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi Ed
>
> Re-reading this message (and studiously avoiding making any suggestions 
> for new names) the idea of "targeting more modern JavaScript engines" makes 
> me wonder about the question of "how modern a browser do you need to have 
> to have a working Tiddlywiki?"  
>
> With regards to minimum browsers for TW5, according to the web site it's 
> "Safari version 6" (from 2012!) IE version 10 (also from 2012!) and "all 
> recent" Chrome, Firefox, and Firefox for Android, whatever that means, but 
> presumably going back comparably far.  So right now TW5 is usable in 
> browsers that go about 8 years back, which is nice.  And TWC support 
> obviously goes back way further than that.
>
> How big a change in "you need this recent a browser" would you think was 
> acceptable in a "Xememex" project?
>
>
> That would be to be decided. In 2010/1 we targeted the browsers that were 
> in common use at the time, and presumably we’d do the same again. Nowadays, 
> most browsers automatically update and so perhaps there might be less 
> incentive to be as conservative as we have been.
>
> From a developer perspective, HTML and CSS have actually changed 
> relatively little over the last 10 years, it’s in the area of JavaScript 
> that things have radically improved: async/await, modules, classes, etc. 
> Making these features available in the core will make the developers more 
> productive, and make it easier for developers with contemporary JavaScript 
> experience to join the project.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
> On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 7:52:20 AM UTC-5 jeremy...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> As appealing as this sounds, I just don't think that as a small community 
>> we have the resources to support both, unless the intention would be for 
>> TiddlyWiki 5 to only receive bug fix updates. 
>>
>>
>> I think that would be the default, yes, unless somebody wanted to pick up 
>> the development more purposefully.
>>
>> As you mention in a later reply, the real challenge is replacing the word 
>> tiddler. I remember trying this in Classic and it wasn't easy then and is 
>> probably even harder now with all the widget attributes etc. Which makes me 
>> wonder if this would really be the best use of our time and resources?
>>
>>
>> That is indeed one of the critical questions.
>>
>> Over the years we've had consistent feedback on the name "TiddlyWiki" 
>> that ranges between:
>>
>> * I don't care about the name, it's just a meaningless string of letters
>> * I think the name is fine, it's distinctive, and has few false positives 
>> when Googling
>> * I think the name diminishes TiddlyWiki
>> * I think the name is a thinly veiled obscenity
>>
>> That last category is undoubtedly a minority, but it's a very 
>> consistently and forcefully expressed opinion when it does come up. I used 
>> to think that view said more about the people holding it than anything 

Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Ed

> Re-reading this message (and studiously avoiding making any suggestions for 
> new names) the idea of "targeting more modern JavaScript engines" makes me 
> wonder about the question of "how modern a browser do you need to have to 
> have a working Tiddlywiki?"  
> 
> With regards to minimum browsers for TW5, according to the web site it's 
> "Safari version 6" (from 2012!) IE version 10 (also from 2012!) and "all 
> recent" Chrome, Firefox, and Firefox for Android, whatever that means, but 
> presumably going back comparably far.  So right now TW5 is usable in browsers 
> that go about 8 years back, which is nice.  And TWC support obviously goes 
> back way further than that.
> 
> How big a change in "you need this recent a browser" would you think was 
> acceptable in a "Xememex" project?

That would be to be decided. In 2010/1 we targeted the browsers that were in 
common use at the time, and presumably we’d do the same again. Nowadays, most 
browsers automatically update and so perhaps there might be less incentive to 
be as conservative as we have been.

>From a developer perspective, HTML and CSS have actually changed relatively 
>little over the last 10 years, it’s in the area of JavaScript that things have 
>radically improved: async/await, modules, classes, etc. Making these features 
>available in the core will make the developers more productive, and make it 
>easier for developers with contemporary JavaScript experience to join the 
>project.

Best wishes

Jeremy


> 
> On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 7:52:20 AM UTC-5 jeremy...@gmail.com 
>  wrote:
>> As appealing as this sounds, I just don't think that as a small community we 
>> have the resources to support both, unless the intention would be for 
>> TiddlyWiki 5 to only receive bug fix updates. 
> 
> I think that would be the default, yes, unless somebody wanted to pick up the 
> development more purposefully.
> 
>> As you mention in a later reply, the real challenge is replacing the word 
>> tiddler. I remember trying this in Classic and it wasn't easy then and is 
>> probably even harder now with all the widget attributes etc. Which makes me 
>> wonder if this would really be the best use of our time and resources?
> 
> That is indeed one of the critical questions.
> 
> Over the years we've had consistent feedback on the name "TiddlyWiki" that 
> ranges between:
> 
> * I don't care about the name, it's just a meaningless string of letters
> * I think the name is fine, it's distinctive, and has few false positives 
> when Googling
> * I think the name diminishes TiddlyWiki
> * I think the name is a thinly veiled obscenity
> 
> That last category is undoubtedly a minority, but it's a very consistently 
> and forcefully expressed opinion when it does come up. I used to think that 
> view said more about the people holding it than anything else. But the 
> trouble is that I'm too close to the thing: the name "TiddlyWiki" is my 
> little piece of wordplay, and I'm attached to it. I think maybe that might 
> hold for many of us who have invested time and effort in the project. So I 
> have to pay attention to feedback that comes from a different perspective, 
> because I'm never going to be able to assume that perspective myself.
> 
> The other consideration in all of this is my desire to modernise the design 
> of TW5 and establish a new baseline for backwards compatibility. After 10 
> years, it's becoming increasingly limiting to live with some of the early 
> design decisions of TW5 (a lot of which are pretty arcane - for example, 
> "tiddlerfield" modules). I believe we would make faster and more decisive 
> progress if we lost some of that baggage.
> 
> The idea of modernising the core relates to the naming change because another 
> bit of feedback that I received back in 2011-13 was that it was a mistake to 
> reuse the name TiddlyWiki for the new project. Many people felt that it was 
> unnecessarily confusing to have two distinct products with the same name, and 
> struggled with my perspective that TWC and TW5 were different versions of the 
> same thing.
> 
> So, what I learned from all of the above is that names for communal things 
> are tricky. People have strong opinions because they feel they have a stake. 
> The thing that is particularly tricky is trying to change what an existing 
> name means if the previous meaning is entrenched in the community.
> 
> In other words, I think TiddlyWiki 5 is ripe for such a thorough internal 
> overhaul that changing the names might not be as much of a practical 
> consideration as it would be if we had to maintain backwards compatibility.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Jeremy.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Saq
> 
>> 
>> -- 
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>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
> 
>> To view this 

Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[coda coder]

Late to the party, again. 

Tiddlywiki - the product has outgrown the name. Did so a long time ago, 
even before TW5.

Xememex - what a beautiful word! Bad name for a product. That's as much of 
a "bump" as describing Tiddlywiki to a newcomer.

Fundamental unit = tiddler? I've never agreed to this even though it's 
touted and repeated ad infinitum.

  Fundamental unit = fields/properties of a tiddler. i.e. "elementary 
particles".
  Atoms = currently called tiddlers.
  Molecules = tagged (or otherwise grouped) tiddlers.
  Long-chain molecule(s) =  Story river(s)  
  
Not sure if there's a new name in there as that stands, but my brane (not a 
typo) is leaning toward String Theory, though I'm not sure about "Brane" or 
"Membrane".  Or maybe I am...?

On Thursday, December 31, 2020 at 9:40:35 AM UTC-6 springer wrote:

> Dear all, I confess that I sometimes rename 'tiddler' for my professional 
> projects, *but* I also recall that "google" also sounded super-silly until 
> it simply rewired our brains...
>
> I'll honor Jeremy's suggestion that this thread not descend into a popcorn 
> of name candidates... and yet I do think that there's some chance that when 
> an ideal name is proposed it may actually bring about a kind of "eureka" 
> moment for a critical number of us.
>
> How about this middle-ground: a brainstorm of the core *concepts* around 
> which there's good promise for communicative recognition. Here's my 
> off-the-cuff list (sorry if I've missed some in the thread that ought to be 
> included), without trying to edit out ones that are "taken" or otherwise 
> non-starters:
>
> Base (platform, database, starting-point)
> Build
> Card (& Deck or stack) (HyperCard, index card, very intuitive)
> Dwell (live in it while rebuilding it)
> Equip (especially as a verb; TW as equipment, but also can be equipped 
> with...)
> Facet (there's more to see!)
> Fly (edit on the fly)
> Kaleido [unweildy, but...]
> Kit (chemistry kit, tinkering, lots of tools out of which you choose what 
> you need)
> Meme/memo/memex [and other variants]
> Molecule/atom/nucleus [other metaphors from physics? fits Atro's logo well]
> Mutate/Morph [not great in viral era!]
> Nexus [yeah, taken]
> Node (not yet mentioned, but invokes both simplicity and power)
> Origami (the power of many facets, flexibility, simple starting point)
> Pack (pack it up, packs a punch, change what's in it...)
> Poly- (as a prefix invoking polyphony, polymorphous...)
> Point (both node-like, and verb-like; PoinTWiki would get TW in there, as 
> would KitWiki)
> Record (I'm a database user; this clues me into the power of fields)
> Self- (as NoteSelf picks up on, having self-modification tools "folded 
> in"...)
> Theseus (yeah, a philosopher's inside joke)
> Tid (tidbit, continuity with Tiddler)
> Topo (topology, topics, map-like)
>
> My suggestion is that we just allow these and other metaphors some 
> breathing room, and imagine their various connotations and powers... If we 
> can orient to a network of conceptual "hooks" on which a rebranding could 
> hang, then perhaps the conversation is less yanked-about by this and that, 
> but gets the associative juices going...
>
> -Springer
> On Thursday, December 31, 2020 at 9:34:37 AM UTC-5 Charlie Veniot wrote:
>
>> Don't mind me.  I just finished my first oh-so-excellent cup o' coffee 
>> for the day, and I'm in a zen mood.
>>
>> Just waxing a little philosophical:  I don't see anything as a mistake.  
>>  I see a thing as the culmination of a series of intertwingled things that 
>> came together into a particular result that could not have been otherwise 
>> at that moment.  The result was meant to be, a wee tiddly and necessary 
>> step on the journey's path.
>>
>> Now I'm about to make myself a second cup of coffee, and a few sips into 
>> that, I may just think: what the heck was I thinking and what "need" was I 
>> trying go handle?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *And more important*: lets correct the past design mistakes!
>>>
>>>
>>>

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Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[springer]

Dear all, I confess that I sometimes rename 'tiddler' for my professional 
projects, *but* I also recall that "google" also sounded super-silly until 
it simply rewired our brains...

I'll honor Jeremy's suggestion that this thread not descend into a popcorn 
of name candidates... and yet I do think that there's some chance that when 
an ideal name is proposed it may actually bring about a kind of "eureka" 
moment for a critical number of us.

How about this middle-ground: a brainstorm of the core *concepts* around 
which there's good promise for communicative recognition. Here's my 
off-the-cuff list (sorry if I've missed some in the thread that ought to be 
included), without trying to edit out ones that are "taken" or otherwise 
non-starters:

Base (platform, database, starting-point)
Build
Card (& Deck or stack) (HyperCard, index card, very intuitive)
Dwell (live in it while rebuilding it)
Equip (especially as a verb; TW as equipment, but also can be equipped 
with...)
Facet (there's more to see!)
Fly (edit on the fly)
Kaleido [unweildy, but...]
Kit (chemistry kit, tinkering, lots of tools out of which you choose what 
you need)
Meme/memo/memex [and other variants]
Molecule/atom/nucleus [other metaphors from physics? fits Atro's logo well]
Mutate/Morph [not great in viral era!]
Nexus [yeah, taken]
Node (not yet mentioned, but invokes both simplicity and power)
Origami (the power of many facets, flexibility, simple starting point)
Pack (pack it up, packs a punch, change what's in it...)
Poly- (as a prefix invoking polyphony, polymorphous...)
Point (both node-like, and verb-like; PoinTWiki would get TW in there, as 
would KitWiki)
Record (I'm a database user; this clues me into the power of fields)
Self- (as NoteSelf picks up on, having self-modification tools "folded 
in"...)
Theseus (yeah, a philosopher's inside joke)
Tid (tidbit, continuity with Tiddler)
Topo (topology, topics, map-like)

My suggestion is that we just allow these and other metaphors some 
breathing room, and imagine their various connotations and powers... If we 
can orient to a network of conceptual "hooks" on which a rebranding could 
hang, then perhaps the conversation is less yanked-about by this and that, 
but gets the associative juices going...

-Springer
On Thursday, December 31, 2020 at 9:34:37 AM UTC-5 Charlie Veniot wrote:

> Don't mind me.  I just finished my first oh-so-excellent cup o' coffee for 
> the day, and I'm in a zen mood.
>
> Just waxing a little philosophical:  I don't see anything as a mistake.  
>  I see a thing as the culmination of a series of intertwingled things that 
> came together into a particular result that could not have been otherwise 
> at that moment.  The result was meant to be, a wee tiddly and necessary 
> step on the journey's path.
>
> Now I'm about to make myself a second cup of coffee, and a few sips into 
> that, I may just think: what the heck was I thinking and what "need" was I 
> trying go handle?
>
>
>>
>>
>> *And more important*: lets correct the past design mistakes!
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Charlie Veniot]

Don't mind me.  I just finished my first oh-so-excellent cup o' coffee for 
the day, and I'm in a zen mood.

Just waxing a little philosophical:  I don't see anything as a mistake.   I 
see a thing as the culmination of a series of intertwingled things that 
came together into a particular result that could not have been otherwise 
at that moment.  The result was meant to be, a wee tiddly and necessary 
step on the journey's path.

Now I'm about to make myself a second cup of coffee, and a few sips into 
that, I may just think: what the heck was I thinking and what "need" was I 
trying go handle?

>
>
>
> *And more important*: lets correct the past design mistakes!
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Mohammad Rahmani]

> I highly believe in a new fork not only to use modern JS but also the full
power of CSS3 and HTML5.

*And more important*: lets correct the past design mistakes!


I am sure Jeremy and all developers DO KEEP TW5 in the present state and
maintain it with bug fixing!

*One important point* always missed is TW5 has a lot of features many do
not know, the reason is they are not documented or in better words they are
not well documented or presented.
Look at the wish list of 2021 there are not many features requested by
users many of them can be implemented by TW5 scripts.

So, please encourage Jeremy and the whole developer team and let's support
them for the new fork.

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Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Jeremy Ruston]

> 
> Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>> Every time this topic comes up we end up going round in circles with people 
>> proposing new names. Let’s try to avoid that, it just gets in the way of the 
>> much more complex discussion that we actually need about why and how we want 
>> to do this.
> 
> Fair enuff (but the thread title certainly invites for this).

Yes, that's rather why I was trying to point the discussion away from that 
direction.

> Could you elaborate more on what "...that is less constrained by backwards 
> compatibility" means? To start off, do you (merely) mean it as an opportunity 
> to make a one time correction of some past mistakes

Yes, exactly that. It's something we've talked about repeatedly, either in the 
context of v5.2.x or v6.

> or do you mean a change in philosophy, i.e to let go of the "backward 
> compatibility"-effort with a version that is more open to continuous backward 
> breaking changes (like most other software is)? 

I think you'll find that most software avoids breaking backwards compatibility 
as far as possible because to do otherwise is intensely user hostile. Take a 
moment to imagine what TiddlyWiki would be like if we didn't rigorously 
maintain backwards compatibility where we can. Imagine if upgrading sometimes 
just didn't work and then when you asked for help you were told that it was an 
intentional policy of the project.

Best wishes

Jeremy

> 
> <:-)
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Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Glenn

> If xememex is the only alternative, then stick with the current name. At 
> least you never have to explain how to pronounce it or spell it.

All I'm trying to point out is that even though it's fun to think up new names, 
every time we get to the point where people are just shouting out their own 
suggestions for new names we never get to the point of discussing the things 
that need to be discussed. I can understand that superficially the challenge 
might look like choosing the new name, but I'm trying to point out that that is 
not the difficult part of the plan.

Best wishes

Jeremy



> 
>> On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 5:10:50 AM UTC-6 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Every time this topic comes up we end up going round in circles with people 
>> proposing new names. Let’s try to avoid that, it just gets in the way of the 
>> much more complex discussion that we actually need about why and how we want 
>> to do this.
>> 
>> Best wishes
>> 
>> Jeremy.
>> 
 On 28 Dec 2020, at 10:59, Mat  wrote:
 
>>> Well, then. My absolutely best proposal is:
>>> 
>>> QuineCards
>>> 
>>> It partly says what TW is but still invites for further questions and 
>>> curiosity.
>>> AFAICT it is unregistered.
>>> And the round and friendly initials should make it easy to create a logo.
>>> I think it is spot on.  
>>>  
>>> <:-)
>>> 
 On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 10:54:17 AM UTC+1 Jeremy Ruston wrote:
 Since we last discussed this topic, I've been increasingly thinking that 
 we should indeed make plans to change the name.
 
 The best alternatives I've got are "xememex" for the product, and "card" 
 for the unit of information. I've had the domain xememex.com for a few 
 years and the @xememex user account.
 
 "Xememex" is of course a palindromisation of Vannevar Bush's "memex":
 
 https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/
 
 There are many details to consider, but I'd be interested to know people's 
 thoughts.
 
 Best wishes
 
 Jeremy
 
 --
 Jeremy Ruston
 jer...@jermolene.com
 https://jermolene.com
 
>> On 28 Dec 2020, at 09:38, TiddlyTweeter  wrote:
>> 
> 
 
> Ciao positiv...@gmail.com
> 
> Small footnote to my last ...
> 
> Several times I have suggested that TiddlyWiki is the ULTIMATE BRICOLAGE 
> ENGINE for computers.
> 
> Immediately, with "Bricolage", though, you get the same issue as the 
> "Tiddly" language specificity. 
> 
> "Bricolage" is a French activity (akin to English D.I.Y.) so not sure its 
> obvious relevance and accuracy would be any better in the end. Though 
> when you look at its meaning it is very close to what we do with TW in 
> practice: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bricolage.
> 
> Random thoughts
> TT
> 
 
> -- 
 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/5a028133-83b9-475a-9b6e-2c3f773363d8n%40googlegroups.com.
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Mat]

Jeremy Ruston wrote:

> Every time this topic comes up we end up going round in circles with 
> people proposing new names. Let’s try to avoid that, it just gets in the 
> way of the much more complex discussion that we actually need about why and 
> how we want to do this.
>

Fair enuff (but the thread title certainly invites for this).

Could you elaborate more on what "...that is less constrained by backwards 
compatibility" means? To start off, do you (merely) mean it as an 
opportunity to make a one time correction of some past mistakes or do you 
mean a change in philosophy, i.e to let go of the "backward 
compatibility"-effort with a version that is more open to continuous 
backward breaking changes (like most other software is)? 

A (very) important aspect that I hope can be kept in mind when major 
functionality changes are considered, is how the very biggest concepts like 
federation could be enabled and some solution to the huge problem we have 
with infrastructure for dispersing plugins.

<:-)

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Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Glenn Dixon]

If xememex is the only alternative, then stick with the current name. At 
least you never have to explain how to pronounce it or spell it.

On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 5:10:50 AM UTC-6 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:

> Every time this topic comes up we end up going round in circles with 
> people proposing new names. Let’s try to avoid that, it just gets in the 
> way of the much more complex discussion that we actually need about why and 
> how we want to do this.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
> On 28 Dec 2020, at 10:59, Mat  wrote:
>
> Well, then. My absolutely best proposal is:
>
> QuineCards
>
> It partly says what TW is but still invites for further questions and 
> curiosity.
> AFAICT it is unregistered.
> And the round and friendly initials should make it easy to create a logo.
> I think it is spot on.  
>  
> <:-)
>
> On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 10:54:17 AM UTC+1 Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
>> Since we last discussed this topic, I've been increasingly thinking that 
>> we should indeed make plans to change the name.
>>
>> The best alternatives I've got are "xememex" for the product, and "card" 
>> for the unit of information. I've had the domain xememex.com for a few 
>> years and the @xememex user account.
>>
>> "Xememex" is of course a palindromisation of Vannevar Bush's "memex":
>>
>>
>> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/
>>
>> There are many details to consider, but I'd be interested to know 
>> people's thoughts.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>> --
>> Jeremy Ruston
>> jer...@jermolene.com
>> https://jermolene.com
>>
>> On 28 Dec 2020, at 09:38, TiddlyTweeter  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Ciao positiv...@gmail.com
>>
>> *Small footnote to my last ...*
>>
>> Several times I have suggested that TiddlyWiki is the ULTIMATE BRICOLAGE 
>> ENGINE for computers.
>>
>> Immediately, with "Bricolage", though, you get the same issue as the 
>> "Tiddly" language specificity. 
>>
>> "Bricolage" is a French activity (akin to English D.I.Y.) so not sure its 
>> obvious relevance and accuracy would be any better in the end. Though when 
>> you look at its meaning it is very close to what we do with TW in practice: 
>> https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bricolage.
>>
>> Random thoughts
>> TT
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
>>
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/5a028133-83b9-475a-9b6e-2c3f773363d8n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
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>  
> 
> .
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Jeremy Ruston]

Every time this topic comes up we end up going round in circles with people 
proposing new names. Let’s try to avoid that, it just gets in the way of the 
much more complex discussion that we actually need about why and how we want to 
do this.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

> On 28 Dec 2020, at 10:59, Mat  wrote:
> 
> Well, then. My absolutely best proposal is:
> 
> QuineCards
> 
> It partly says what TW is but still invites for further questions and 
> curiosity.
> AFAICT it is unregistered.
> And the round and friendly initials should make it easy to create a logo.
> I think it is spot on.  
>  
> <:-)
> 
> On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 10:54:17 AM UTC+1 Jeremy Ruston wrote:
> Since we last discussed this topic, I've been increasingly thinking that we 
> should indeed make plans to change the name.
> 
> The best alternatives I've got are "xememex" for the product, and "card" for 
> the unit of information. I've had the domain xememex.com 
>  for a few years and the @xememex user account.
> 
> "Xememex" is of course a palindromisation of Vannevar Bush's "memex":
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/ 
> 
> 
> There are many details to consider, but I'd be interested to know people's 
> thoughts.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Jeremy
> 
> --
> Jeremy Ruston
> jer...@jermolene.com 
> https://jermolene.com 
> 
>> On 28 Dec 2020, at 09:38, TiddlyTweeter > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
> 
>> Ciao positiv...@gmail.com 
>> 
>> 
>> Small footnote to my last ...
>> 
>> Several times I have suggested that TiddlyWiki is the ULTIMATE BRICOLAGE 
>> ENGINE for computers.
>> 
>> Immediately, with "Bricolage", though, you get the same issue as the 
>> "Tiddly" language specificity. 
>> 
>> "Bricolage" is a French activity (akin to English D.I.Y.) so not sure its 
>> obvious relevance and accuracy would be any better in the end. Though when 
>> you look at its meaning it is very close to what we do with TW in practice: 
>> https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bricolage 
>> .
>> 
>> Random thoughts
>> TT
>> 
> 
>> -- 
> 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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>> .
> 
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/5a028133-83b9-475a-9b6e-2c3f773363d8n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> .
> 
> 
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Re: [tw5] TiddlyWiki Project Name

[Mohammad Rahmani]

Hi Thomas,

If you make a search you will find at least two threads discussing the name
and rebranding!

One is this long thread
https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/MKVwkEmCimQ/m/AEj6J534AQAJ

I think the person who can make this important decision is Jeremy and I
myself respect what he decides to do with name!

BUT I am one of those people highly believe in rebranding this
amazing piece of code! One time Jeremy himself proposed to use `card`
instead of tiddler.
It may be interesting for you to know I had a workshop on Tiddlywiki in an
international congress for researchers and graduate students from the
chemical engineering field. Not many people participated in the workshop,
but they were amazed with  the enormous features Tiddlywiki has as a
research tool. After the workshop many asked about the name and they
believed the name is funny and seems like a not serious thing!

So, my strong belief is Tiddlywiki is an amazing tool, I think TW5 is like
16 years old. You cannot find many tools in web technology to last for such
a long time and still be used.
It is very flexible and lends itself to many forms, it works greatly in
offline and online mode, ...
So it deserve to have

- a much better name
- a much better home page
- a much better reputation



Best wishes
Mohammad


On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 9:44 AM Thomas Stone 
wrote:

> I couldn't find if this topic has already been re-hashed this decade. But
> I was wondering if there is any value in discussing alternative names to
> the "Tiddly" part of the TiddlyWIki project. This project has been around
> for so long that renaming / rebranding would be quite an effort. And the
> Tiddly part is unique within programming projects, which helps to eliminate
> false positives when searching for sample code.
>
> I am an American living on the Pacific Coast, so my linguistic preferences
> are definitely different from Jeremy's. But just saying the word 'Tiddly'
> out loud feels like trying to get people from certain Germany dialects to
> say the word "Squirrel." It always feels forced to me.
>
> A joke by Lt. Commander Data on Star Trek the Next Generation was about
> someone mispronouncing 'kidneys' as 'kiddleys.' We the store keeper
> corrected him, the customer contested, "No, I said 'kiddleys.' Diddle I?"
>
> From just a project standpoint, the word 'Tiddly' is trying to focus on
> the "small amount" of data or code that should be in any one unit. This way
> many units can be combined in various ways to satisfy different needs.
> Although it is intended to produce a Wiki-like user interface with deep
> linking and back references, the way you go about it is by breaking up
> large pieces of information into re-usable components.
>
> If your goal is to create "tiddlers," then using a TiddlyWiki application
> would be a natural fit. If the goal of most people is to make small units
> of re-usable components, then perhaps a different prefix would make it more
> appealing. Again, this is just a personal opinion and not a slight on the
> TiddlyWiki project as a whole, which I have been using frequently everyday.
>
> There have been two alternate words kicking around in my head lately.
> TipWiki or DotWiki.
>
> 'Tip' has a very similar double meaning to Tiddly - drunk people can be
> 'tiddly' or 'tipsy', and just the 'tip' of something or a 'tiddly' amount
> of something is quite small. There is an additional English meaning of
> 'tip' to mean 'a small note or suggestion.' That seems to be actually the
> point of TiddlyWiki: Make lots of small notes that can be re-combined as
> pieces of many different larger pages. 'Tiddlers' would become 'Tips', and
> a single 'tiddler' would become a single 'tip.' Phonetically, it feels a
> lot easier to talk about.
>
> 'Dot' has an inherent meaning of 'smallest possible mark or amount.' This
> would again drive home the concept of making the smallest possible content
> for any one unit of information. Unfortunately, dots are already associated
> with the 'dot notation' of Object Oriented Programming, so that could make
> it a little confusing as to the overall goal for people with software
> development backgrounds.
>
> The goal of renaming the project would be to push the desire for
> "smallness" of the individual unit using a more standard English word.
> Please forgive me if I am pushing anyone's buttons here. This topic was
> just on my mind. Thank you for your time.
>
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