Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Mark C. Stephens]

Second the WD-40 best label adhesive remover - and is so gentle it will leave 
the "skin" on aluminium..
Just spray it on and let it soak in.

Can also start the lawn mower / Car / Boat with it,
Fix squeaky hinges, lubricate locks..


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of John Marvin
Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2013 4:29 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven controller 
schematic

I've found that a lot of sticky things, including sticker glue, is oil soluble. 
So I just use a liberal amount of vegetable oil with a cloth to dissolve the 
stuff and get rid of the goop. Then you are left with an oily surface (you 
probably shouldn't use this method on cloth which might be stained by the 
vegetable oil). The second stage of the process then can be a variety of 
cleaners to remove the liquid oil. Dove dishwashing soap can be quite 
effective. Anyway, this two step process works quite well for a lot of things 
that would take more work scrubbing and scraping otherwise. In many cases it 
does a better job, without having to use harsher chemicals.

John

On 7/31/2013 11:12 PM, Don Latham wrote:
> I haven't found anything that really removes sticker glue without 
> scarring the paint. Of course, if you want provenance and history, 
> leave 'em on :-) I'm only buying usb new and pre-1930 GR.
> Howareya?   Heading for shooting tomorrow and on to see Argus, then to
> gun show. Just returned from marrying off step-grandson; Astoria WA.
> strange town.
> Don
>
> Dr. Edward H. Currie
>> DW-40 is a good label goop remover ...
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Don Latham" 
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 8:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven 
>> controller schematic
>>
>>
>>> Xylene is availble as "goof-off" in paint departments.
>>>
>>> Graham
 This has been an interesting discussion on how to remove "goop" 
 from stuff.

 I find that one or the other of the common methyl or ethyl alcohols 
 is sufficient in many cases to remove "goop" and has proven to be 
 quite safe on almost all surfaces.

 When one of the common alcohols doesn't work I resort to a product 
 marketed by Circa 1850 under the name of Super DeGooper. The label 
 says it "Removes these Goops: Oil Crayon, Tar, Marker, Gum, Labels, 
 Shoe Polish, Adhesive, Duct Tape, Lipstick, Grease, stickers, Dried 
 Latex Paint" but in my experience is quite effect on much, much 
 more and is safe on most surfaces.

 The caution label indicates that it contains xylene.

 Works for me and when it doesn't I then resort to the much stronger 
 lacquer thinner or acetone. All are flammable and are used 
 carefully with adequate ventilation.

 And when all else fails, good old scraping is used.


 cheers, Graham ve3gtc


 On 13-07-31 11:15 AM, Rex wrote:
> I suspect by gas he meant gasoline.
>
> I don't know about what paint remover he meant but I have another 
> suggestion that might have worked. For cleaning label gunk off of 
> used test equipment I have used automotive bug and tar remover. 
> Seems to loosen up lots of gunk but not so strong it hurts the 
> panel paint and lettering.
>
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

>>>
>>> --
>>> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
>>> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
>>> De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
>>> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
>>> Ghost in the Shell
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
>>> Six Mile Systems LLP
>>> 17850 Six Mile Road
>>> POB 134
>>> Huson, MT, 59846
>>> VOX 406-626-4304
>>> Skype: buffler2
>>> www.lightningforensics.com
>>> www.sixmilesystems.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[John Marvin]

I've found that a lot of sticky things, including sticker glue, is oil 
soluble. So I just use a liberal amount of vegetable oil with a cloth to 
dissolve the stuff and get rid of the goop. Then you are left with an 
oily surface (you probably shouldn't use this method on cloth which 
might be stained by the vegetable oil). The second stage of the process 
then can be a variety of cleaners to remove the liquid oil. Dove 
dishwashing soap can be quite effective. Anyway, this two step process 
works quite well for a lot of things that would take more work scrubbing 
and scraping otherwise. In many cases it does a better job, without 
having to use harsher chemicals.


John

On 7/31/2013 11:12 PM, Don Latham wrote:

I haven't found anything that really removes sticker glue without
scarring the paint. Of course, if you want provenance and history, leave
'em on :-)
I'm only buying usb new and pre-1930 GR.
Howareya?   Heading for shooting tomorrow and on to see Argus, then to
gun show. Just returned from marrying off step-grandson; Astoria WA.
strange town.
Don

Dr. Edward H. Currie

DW-40 is a good label goop remover ...


- Original Message -
From: "Don Latham" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven
controller schematic



Xylene is availble as "goof-off" in paint departments.

Graham

This has been an interesting discussion on how to remove "goop" from
stuff.

I find that one or the other of the common methyl or ethyl alcohols
is
sufficient in many cases to remove "goop" and has proven to be quite
safe on almost all surfaces.

When one of the common alcohols doesn't work I resort to a product
marketed by Circa 1850 under the name of Super DeGooper. The label
says
it "Removes these Goops: Oil Crayon, Tar, Marker, Gum, Labels, Shoe
Polish, Adhesive, Duct Tape, Lipstick, Grease, stickers, Dried Latex
Paint" but in my experience is quite effect on much, much more and is
safe on most surfaces.

The caution label indicates that it contains xylene.

Works for me and when it doesn't I then resort to the much stronger
lacquer thinner or acetone. All are flammable and are used carefully
with adequate ventilation.

And when all else fails, good old scraping is used.


cheers, Graham ve3gtc


On 13-07-31 11:15 AM, Rex wrote:

I suspect by gas he meant gasoline.

I don't know about what paint remover he meant but I have another
suggestion that might have worked. For cleaning label gunk off of
used
test equipment I have used automotive bug and tar remover. Seems to
loosen up lots of gunk but not so strong it hurts the panel paint
and
lettering.


___
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--
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Rex]

On 7/31/2013 7:06 PM, Dr. Edward H. Currie wrote:

DW-40 is a good label goop remover ...


 Does the DW stand for dyslexic writing? :-)

Pretty sure you meant WD-40 as in this link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40



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Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Don Latham]

Sorry, all, got a personal mixed in! pls ignore!
Don

Dr. Edward H. Currie
> DW-40 is a good label goop remover ...
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Don Latham" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 8:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven
> controller schematic
>
>
>> Xylene is availble as "goof-off" in paint departments.
>>
>> Graham
>>> This has been an interesting discussion on how to remove "goop" from
>>> stuff.
>>>
>>> I find that one or the other of the common methyl or ethyl alcohols
>>> is
>>> sufficient in many cases to remove "goop" and has proven to be quite
>>> safe on almost all surfaces.
>>>
>>> When one of the common alcohols doesn't work I resort to a product
>>> marketed by Circa 1850 under the name of Super DeGooper. The label
>>> says
>>> it "Removes these Goops: Oil Crayon, Tar, Marker, Gum, Labels, Shoe
>>> Polish, Adhesive, Duct Tape, Lipstick, Grease, stickers, Dried Latex
>>> Paint" but in my experience is quite effect on much, much more and is
>>> safe on most surfaces.
>>>
>>> The caution label indicates that it contains xylene.
>>>
>>> Works for me and when it doesn't I then resort to the much stronger
>>> lacquer thinner or acetone. All are flammable and are used carefully
>>> with adequate ventilation.
>>>
>>> And when all else fails, good old scraping is used.
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13-07-31 11:15 AM, Rex wrote:
 I suspect by gas he meant gasoline.

 I don't know about what paint remover he meant but I have another
 suggestion that might have worked. For cleaning label gunk off of
 used
 test equipment I have used automotive bug and tar remover. Seems to
 loosen up lots of gunk but not so strong it hurts the panel paint
 and
 lettering.

>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
>> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
>> De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
>> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
>> Ghost in the Shell
>>
>>
>> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
>> Six Mile Systems LLP
>> 17850 Six Mile Road
>> POB 134
>> Huson, MT, 59846
>> VOX 406-626-4304
>> Skype: buffler2
>> www.lightningforensics.com
>> www.sixmilesystems.com
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.”
-George Bernard Shaw



Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Don Latham]

I haven't found anything that really removes sticker glue without
scarring the paint. Of course, if you want provenance and history, leave
'em on :-)
I'm only buying usb new and pre-1930 GR.
Howareya?   Heading for shooting tomorrow and on to see Argus, then to
gun show. Just returned from marrying off step-grandson; Astoria WA.
strange town.
Don

Dr. Edward H. Currie
> DW-40 is a good label goop remover ...
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Don Latham" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 8:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven
> controller schematic
>
>
>> Xylene is availble as "goof-off" in paint departments.
>>
>> Graham
>>> This has been an interesting discussion on how to remove "goop" from
>>> stuff.
>>>
>>> I find that one or the other of the common methyl or ethyl alcohols
>>> is
>>> sufficient in many cases to remove "goop" and has proven to be quite
>>> safe on almost all surfaces.
>>>
>>> When one of the common alcohols doesn't work I resort to a product
>>> marketed by Circa 1850 under the name of Super DeGooper. The label
>>> says
>>> it "Removes these Goops: Oil Crayon, Tar, Marker, Gum, Labels, Shoe
>>> Polish, Adhesive, Duct Tape, Lipstick, Grease, stickers, Dried Latex
>>> Paint" but in my experience is quite effect on much, much more and is
>>> safe on most surfaces.
>>>
>>> The caution label indicates that it contains xylene.
>>>
>>> Works for me and when it doesn't I then resort to the much stronger
>>> lacquer thinner or acetone. All are flammable and are used carefully
>>> with adequate ventilation.
>>>
>>> And when all else fails, good old scraping is used.
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13-07-31 11:15 AM, Rex wrote:
 I suspect by gas he meant gasoline.

 I don't know about what paint remover he meant but I have another
 suggestion that might have worked. For cleaning label gunk off of
 used
 test equipment I have used automotive bug and tar remover. Seems to
 loosen up lots of gunk but not so strong it hurts the panel paint
 and
 lettering.

>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
>> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
>> De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
>> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
>> Ghost in the Shell
>>
>>
>> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
>> Six Mile Systems LLP
>> 17850 Six Mile Road
>> POB 134
>> Huson, MT, 59846
>> VOX 406-626-4304
>> Skype: buffler2
>> www.lightningforensics.com
>> www.sixmilesystems.com
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.”
-George Bernard Shaw



Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Dr. Edward H. Currie]

DW-40 is a good label goop remover ...


- Original Message - 
From: "Don Latham" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven 
controller schematic




Xylene is availble as "goof-off" in paint departments.

Graham

This has been an interesting discussion on how to remove "goop" from
stuff.

I find that one or the other of the common methyl or ethyl alcohols is
sufficient in many cases to remove "goop" and has proven to be quite
safe on almost all surfaces.

When one of the common alcohols doesn't work I resort to a product
marketed by Circa 1850 under the name of Super DeGooper. The label says
it "Removes these Goops: Oil Crayon, Tar, Marker, Gum, Labels, Shoe
Polish, Adhesive, Duct Tape, Lipstick, Grease, stickers, Dried Latex
Paint" but in my experience is quite effect on much, much more and is
safe on most surfaces.

The caution label indicates that it contains xylene.

Works for me and when it doesn't I then resort to the much stronger
lacquer thinner or acetone. All are flammable and are used carefully
with adequate ventilation.

And when all else fails, good old scraping is used.


cheers, Graham ve3gtc


On 13-07-31 11:15 AM, Rex wrote:

I suspect by gas he meant gasoline.

I don't know about what paint remover he meant but I have another
suggestion that might have worked. For cleaning label gunk off of used
test equipment I have used automotive bug and tar remover. Seems to
loosen up lots of gunk but not so strong it hurts the panel paint and
lettering.



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--
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


___
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To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there. 


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Re: [time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Don Latham]

Xylene is availble as "goof-off" in paint departments.

Graham
> This has been an interesting discussion on how to remove "goop" from
> stuff.
>
> I find that one or the other of the common methyl or ethyl alcohols is
> sufficient in many cases to remove "goop" and has proven to be quite
> safe on almost all surfaces.
>
> When one of the common alcohols doesn't work I resort to a product
> marketed by Circa 1850 under the name of Super DeGooper. The label says
> it "Removes these Goops: Oil Crayon, Tar, Marker, Gum, Labels, Shoe
> Polish, Adhesive, Duct Tape, Lipstick, Grease, stickers, Dried Latex
> Paint" but in my experience is quite effect on much, much more and is
> safe on most surfaces.
>
> The caution label indicates that it contains xylene.
>
> Works for me and when it doesn't I then resort to the much stronger
> lacquer thinner or acetone. All are flammable and are used carefully
> with adequate ventilation.
>
> And when all else fails, good old scraping is used.
>
>
> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>
>
> On 13-07-31 11:15 AM, Rex wrote:
>> I suspect by gas he meant gasoline.
>>
>> I don't know about what paint remover he meant but I have another
>> suggestion that might have worked. For cleaning label gunk off of used
>> test equipment I have used automotive bug and tar remover. Seems to
>> loosen up lots of gunk but not so strong it hurts the panel paint and
>> lettering.
>>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] How quartz crystals are (were) fabricated

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Some things change, some things don't. A few interesting things:

1) The film was made after they figured out that final etch was a key step. 
Earlier in the war - not so much etch.
2) I'll *guarantee* that the workers in the pictures didn't show up for work on 
a normal work day dressed like that.
3) I *think* some of that gear is still in use at work …..

Bob

On Jul 31, 2013, at 5:59 PM, Alberto di Bene  wrote:

> A really fascinating story in pictures of the preparation and manufacture of 
> quartz crystals for radio communication.
> Dating back to 1943... how times have changed...
> 
> Copied from another list.
> 
> http://archive.org/details/6101_Crystals_Go_to_War_01_20_16_21
> 
> 73  Alberto  I2PHD
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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[time-nuts] How quartz crystals are (were) fabricated

[Alberto di Bene]

A really fascinating story in pictures of the preparation and manufacture of 
quartz crystals for radio communication.
Dating back to 1943... how times have changed...

Copied from another list.

http://archive.org/details/6101_Crystals_Go_to_War_01_20_16_21

73  Alberto  I2PHD



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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Nortel GPSTM Boards

[Bob Camp]

Hi

>From looking at a picture of one, it seems to have all the same "stuff" on it 
>as the NTGS50 era gizmos. It should behave the same way.

Bob

On Jul 31, 2013, at 5:42 PM, gandal...@aol.com wrote:

> Having stuck a late bid on a recent auction for what I'd  assumed was a 
> Trimble Nortel NTGS50AA I then realised I'd  just bought the single board 
> version, part number 4500-00-CH  with the Trimble 49422-CR OCXO.
> 
> That in itself wasn't a problem, except perhaps the doubts cast over  my 
> sanity:-), it arrived earlier today and has been  running for several hours 
> now, chatting comfortably with  Lady Heather, and generally settling in 
> nicely.
> 
> However, it does prompt the question, has anyone had a chance to compare  
> one of these side by side with an NTGS50AA and, if so, were there any  
> obvious differences in performance?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> 
> 
> ___
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[time-nuts] Trimble Nortel GPSTM Boards

[GandalfG8]

Having stuck a late bid on a recent auction for what I'd  assumed was a 
Trimble Nortel NTGS50AA I then realised I'd  just bought the single board 
version, part number 4500-00-CH  with the Trimble 49422-CR OCXO.
 
That in itself wasn't a problem, except perhaps the doubts cast over  my 
sanity:-), it arrived earlier today and has been  running for several hours 
now, chatting comfortably with  Lady Heather, and generally settling in nicely.
 
However, it does prompt the question, has anyone had a chance to compare  
one of these side by side with an NTGS50AA and, if so, were there any  
obvious differences in performance?
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
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[time-nuts] Removing "goop" was: =>Re: 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Graham]

This has been an interesting discussion on how to remove "goop" from stuff.

I find that one or the other of the common methyl or ethyl alcohols is 
sufficient in many cases to remove "goop" and has proven to be quite 
safe on almost all surfaces.


When one of the common alcohols doesn't work I resort to a product 
marketed by Circa 1850 under the name of Super DeGooper. The label says 
it "Removes these Goops: Oil Crayon, Tar, Marker, Gum, Labels, Shoe 
Polish, Adhesive, Duct Tape, Lipstick, Grease, stickers, Dried Latex 
Paint" but in my experience is quite effect on much, much more and is 
safe on most surfaces.


The caution label indicates that it contains xylene.

Works for me and when it doesn't I then resort to the much stronger 
lacquer thinner or acetone. All are flammable and are used carefully 
with adequate ventilation.


And when all else fails, good old scraping is used.


cheers, Graham ve3gtc


On 13-07-31 11:15 AM, Rex wrote:

I suspect by gas he meant gasoline.

I don't know about what paint remover he meant but I have another 
suggestion that might have worked. For cleaning label gunk off of used 
test equipment I have used automotive bug and tar remover. Seems to 
loosen up lots of gunk but not so strong it hurts the panel paint and 
lettering.




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Re: [time-nuts] HP Z3801 melted rubber feet. Heads up

[Magnus Danielson]

On 27/07/13 00:58, paul swed wrote:

Beginning the process of installing a hp 10544 in what had held the Hp
10811 temporarily by adding some wires for power to the 10544. Pulled the
main board out and what a mess I discovered. HP installed some rubber feet
to support the main boards and they have melted and turned to gue. Whats
interesting is the stuff ran all over the mainboard. Like it wicked upward.
Can't be good and no idea if the stuff actually has conductivity to some
level in this state. Seems to clean up well with rubbing alcohol. But will
be a job and many cotton swabs will give their life in the process.
Maybe the stuff is alive.
Just a heads up to Z3801 folks.


I wondered what the hell they put into the box. Had to clean it off. God 
most of it out, but not really clean. Nasty stuff.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] testing L1 antenna

[Magnus Danielson]

On 25/07/13 09:21, Hal Murray wrote:

Has anyone got a proven method to check a GPS timing antenna for reliable 
operation?


Plug it into a known-good GPS receiver.


A while ago, I thought one of my antennas had died.  Then the other died, or
something like that.  Both antennas started working again after I power
cycled my Z3801A.  I assume the GPS unit was confused.



I had similar problems. Turned out that the UPS that was providing power 
to the GPS also powering the splitters and antenna was in "off" state 
from an error. Clear error, turn on, all GPSes locked up nicely after 
some reasonable time.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Paul (and others),

On 31/07/13 15:37, paul swed wrote:

Paint remover turpentine
Gas = gasoline


Thanks!


Ovens all clean now of the goo.
But its still off frequency


Bummer. Hope it can resolve itself with some more debugging and test of 
ideas with the good folks here.


Have a few more 10811s to test out.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Typical NTP performance? Monitoring multiple NTP servers?

[Chris Albertson]

Your time logging method likely introduces a large error.  Larger then any
problems in the things you are trying to measure.   A good NTP system
generally works at the "few microseconds" level.

As for running multiple "NTP Clients",  First off there is not such
distintion between a client and a server.  You simply run "ntpd" and it
looks at it's config file to find reference clocks.  ntpd will accept any
number of clocks and will serve time to any computer that asks

If you want to monitor multiple ntpd running on several computers just set
up one of them to use the uothers as reference clocks and the have 'ntpq"
print a "billboard" and you will see the reletive performance.

On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:21 AM, Anders Wallin  wrote:

> Hi all, I have two NTP-related questions:
>
> 1.
> We are setting up a White-Rabbit[1] network for time-distribution. We
> 'seed' the WR-network with 10MHz and PPS signals form atomic clocks. This
> means on each computer in the network there's a very accurate PTP-server
> running on the WR-card, as well as the normal system time on the computer.
> For fun I logged both the system-time (kept on time using NTP) as well as
> the PTP time and plotted the error:
>
> http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/NTP_time_2013jul26.png
> I was wondering if this plot is typical for a (good?) NTP-disciplined
> computer clock?
> Without NTP the free-running clock shows >40 ppm error:
>
> http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/freerunning_vs_ntp_2013jul26.png
>
> The -16ms offset in this graph is probably due to my naive program where we
> first call a simple function that asks the NTP time, and then over a serial
> link ask for the PTP time. In reality the two time-stamps might be better
> synchronized - I don't know. The slow variation I see should be real
> however and completely due to drift in the NTP time, since the WR-time is
> much more accurate.
>
> 2.
> Is it possible to run several NTP-clients on one machine? That means I'd
> have multiple "system-times" each synchronized to its own NTP server.
> If this is possible I'd like to monitor several NTP-servers at once and log
> their time-stamps against our WR-time which is known to be good.
>
> thanks,
>
> Anders
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Rabbit_Project
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Typical NTP performance? Monitoring multiple NTP servers?

[Magnus Danielson]

Hej Anders,

On 26/07/13 09:21, Anders Wallin wrote:

Hi all, I have two NTP-related questions:

1.
We are setting up a White-Rabbit[1] network for time-distribution. We
'seed' the WR-network with 10MHz and PPS signals form atomic clocks. This
means on each computer in the network there's a very accurate PTP-server
running on the WR-card, as well as the normal system time on the computer.
For fun I logged both the system-time (kept on time using NTP) as well as
the PTP time and plotted the error:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/NTP_time_2013jul26.png
I was wondering if this plot is typical for a (good?) NTP-disciplined
computer clock?


There is folks here that have done tons of plots. You can do better I 
think, but it depends on network, load and configuration.



Without NTP the free-running clock shows>40 ppm error:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/freerunning_vs_ntp_2013jul26.png




The -16ms offset in this graph is probably due to my naive program where we
first call a simple function that asks the NTP time, and then over a serial
link ask for the PTP time. In reality the two time-stamps might be better
synchronized - I don't know. The slow variation I see should be real
however and completely due to drift in the NTP time, since the WR-time is
much more accurate.

2.
Is it possible to run several NTP-clients on one machine? That means I'd
have multiple "system-times" each synchronized to its own NTP server.
If this is possible I'd like to monitor several NTP-servers at once and log
their time-stamps against our WR-time which is known to be good.


Rather, you set up multiple peers to your NTPD and you then monitor them 
as well as the system-time, and by combining source_n-NTPD and NTPD-WR 
differences you get your full set of source_n-WR set of differences.


Looks like you have good reasons to tweak that NTPD setup, it should be 
able to perform better than what you have logged.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Rb standard questions

[paul swed]

Thats it pin 5 in your case. Most RBs bring the lamp voltage out. In
reality its simply brightness from the photocell after amplification and
some filtering.
Regards


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Mike M  wrote:

>   > Mon Jul 29 15:04:40 EDT 2013
>
>   > Life is variable. 10 years and the lamp voltage is the best clue.
>
>   > New 9-12V, mid life 3-9, late 3 and below.
>
>   > That doesn't  mean  it  won't work but gives you  a  hint  and the
>   > voltages are approx. Use a Hz meter to measure it.
>
>   [...]
>
>   > Regards
>   > Paul
>
> Paul,
>
> When you say lamp voltage, what are you measuring?
>
> I have the LPRO repair guide by Fred de Vries. It doesn't say much about
> the lamp voltage except it appears on pin 5, and a healthy unit measures 6
> to 9 volts. There are some schematics that appear to come from a patent,
> but I couldn't find any  reference to  pin 5.
>
> http://www.radcomms.net/EFRATOM%20LPRO%20101%20Repair%20Guide.pdf
>
> So what does this voltage do in the circuit?
>
> Is there a way to measure a similar voltage on a FE-5650A or FE-5680A?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike M
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Re: [time-nuts] RS 232

[Magnus Danielson]

On 26/07/13 15:06, Jim Lux wrote:

And, in some cases, moving the timing critical operations off to a
separate device is going to be the wisest plan. The Roland MPU401 Midi
box was one of the first to do this, back in the DOS days.


It was a pretty crappy CPU, but sufficient to do the task. Still got a 
derivate board :)


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Story in the Economist about GPS jamming

[Magnus Danielson]

On 31/07/13 13:54, Jim Lux wrote:

Yes.. You put a gain antenna on the space craft, so for the same tx power, you 
get the same flux density on the ground.   The gps height was chosen for a 
variety of reasons.  It is out of the debris band, for one.  There's also a 
tradeoffs on launch costs, etc.  GPS world magazine had a great multipart 
article on the history and design last year


The GPS birds have a directivity in their antennas to start with, it 
performs a first degree compensation of the distance change to signal 
strength, so the GPS bird transmit stronger in a circular lobe on the 
edge of the earth than straight down.


Doing the same for a GEO sat bird is trivial. The antenna changes the 
geometry just a tiny bit to achieve it, as the distance difference isn't 
all that large.


Those interested should play around with NEC2. :)

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[paul swed]

Paint remover turpentine
Gas = gasoline
Ovens all clean now of the goo.
But its still off frequency
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Rex  wrote:

> I suspect by gas he meant gasoline.
>
> I don't know about what paint remover he meant but I have another
> suggestion that might have worked. For cleaning label gunk off of used test
> equipment I have used automotive bug and tar remover. Seems to loosen up
> lots of gunk but not so strong it hurts the panel paint and lettering.
>
>
>
> On 7/31/2013 1:51 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> gas? What gas?
>>
>> what soft plastic paint remover?
>>
>> A little more specifics would help if someone is in the need.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On 20/07/13 23:22, paul swed wrote:
>>
>>> Hello to the group.
>>> As the various posts mention pulling the outer oven and taped wire off
>>> is a
>>> job. But thats done.
>>> The Osc is 45 Hz low hot and 200 Hz low cold. Bobs on target with his
>>> comment on what to expect. It does warm up and behave as you might expect
>>> but its all relative not exact even according to the 10811 service
>>> manual.
>>> So it could be off temperature. But very hard to say until I get a
>>> thermocouple in there.
>>> Will say the various rubbery stuff and shock absorbing stuff left one
>>> heck
>>> of a gooey mess.
>>> Oily sticky stuff.I tried oil, alcohol, turpentine, and finally gas. None
>>> really did anything. But what did was a soft plastic paint remover. That
>>> peeled the old tape and goo off very nicely.
>>> What was left was the true glue and that was removable by gas.
>>> It went from a gooey mess that stuck to everything to a pretty clean can.
>>> Next I used a small torch one of those small butane refillable units. Had
>>> it for years and never really had a use for it till now. I have started
>>> the
>>> process of opening the can. Thats not complete yet. But I cleaned enough
>>> goo off that when I heat things I don't have a smelly smoldering mess.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi

 If a 10811 oven is simply not working, the output will be> 400 Hz off
 frequency.

 Bob

 On Jul 19, 2013, at 12:48 PM, ed breya wrote:

  Paul,
>
> If the 10811 is that far off, are you sure the oven is working?  A few
>
 years ago mine had a failure of a particular date code range of the
 opamp
 that controls the oven, that were prone to failure.at high temperature.
 The symptom in the Z3801A was that the outer oven seemed bad - it did
 not
 turn on, but it was because it was waiting for the inner one to reach
 nominal temperature, but it never did. Once you get it all apart,
 replacement of the IC is no big deal, but what a PITA to get to it. I
 vaguely recall posting the whole story on that website that has big
 coverage of the Z3801A - I can't remember the name, since I haven't been
 there in a while, but it should be easy to find. The website had all
 kinds
 of Z3801A info, including a nice writeup on how to take the oven apart,
 which is where I started.

>
> Ed
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing

[Magnus Danielson]

On 28/07/13 19:16, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

If we are now down to a truck sized / house sized area, I'd claim that Loran-C 
is dead simple to jam. That's what the truck stop gizmos are aimed at.


There where truck-sized spare transmitters to be utilized in failure/war 
as I recall it.


The main reason LORAN-C was "hard" to jam wide-area, was that it would 
require a large antenna for good transmission properties, and that would 
be easy to detect and take out. DFing would also be possible, as such 
work has already been done in LORAN-C (recall the search of the false 
transmitter of the coast of Texas).


For smaller area, you can use a smaller antenna with worse performance 
but still achieve the goal.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Story in the Economist about GPS jamming

[Jim Lux]

Yes.. You put a gain antenna on the space craft, so for the same tx power, you 
get the same flux density on the ground.   The gps height was chosen for a 
variety of reasons.  It is out of the debris band, for one.  There's also a 
tradeoffs on launch costs, etc.  GPS world magazine had a great multipart 
article on the history and design last year

On Jul 31, 2013, at 5:25, Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> The MEO/GEO distance difference isn't all that great, and comparable signal 
> strength is seen from the WAAS/EGNOS (SBAS in general) without too much 
> difficulty in design.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 30/07/13 16:51, bg wrote:
>> Satnav are not LEO but MEO. Which is good - less sv to cover the earth. Less 
>> good because distance is higher compared to LEO regarding signal power at 
>> earth.
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> Björn
>> 
>> 
>> Skickat från min Mobil
>> 
>>  Originalmeddelande 
>> Från: Scott McGrath
>> Datum: 2013-07-30  14:50  (GMT+01:00)
>> Till: j...@quikus.com,Discussion of precise time and frequency 
>> measurement
>> Kopia: Discussion of precise time and frequency 
>> measurement
>> Rubrik: Re: [time-nuts] Story in the Economist about GPS jamming
>> 
>> Any competent engineer could have told the powers that be that a satellite 
>> system based in LEO has a relatively high risk profile from the 
>> Universe/hostile activity/spoofing and jamming
>> 
>> Yes GPS is/was oversold.
>> 
>> Trouble is Clarkes law applies here (any sufficiently advanced technology is 
>> indistinguishable from magic).  And this applies double to the technological 
>> illiterates in DC
>> 
>> See Sen 'Tubes' Stevens for the canonical example
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:46 PM, "J. Forster"  wrote:
>> 
>>> It seems to me that GPS has been oversold as the be all, end all system
>>> that made all other systems obsolete and GPS has become all but an
>>> indespensible utility.
>>> 
>>> Reports like this, could well be used to promote a backup, like LORAN or
>>> eLORAN, just as public buildings have backup generators.
>>> 
>>> YMMV,
>>> 
>>> -John
>>> 
>>> ==
>>> 
>>> 
 
 http://www.economist.com/news/international/21582288-satellite-positioning-data-are-vitalbut-signal-surprisingly-easy-disrupt-out?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/outofsight
 
 -Bill
 
 
 
 
 
 ___
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 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rb standard questions

[Mike M]

  > Mon Jul 29 15:04:40 EDT 2013

  > Life is variable. 10 years and the lamp voltage is the best clue.

  > New 9-12V, mid life 3-9, late 3 and below.

  > That doesn't  mean  it  won't work but gives you  a  hint  and the
  > voltages are approx. Use a Hz meter to measure it.
  
  [...]

  > Regards
  > Paul

Paul,

When you say lamp voltage, what are you measuring?

I have the LPRO repair guide by Fred de Vries. It doesn't say much about
the lamp voltage except it appears on pin 5, and a healthy unit measures 6
to 9 volts. There are some schematics that appear to come from a patent,
but I couldn't find any  reference to  pin 5.

http://www.radcomms.net/EFRATOM%20LPRO%20101%20Repair%20Guide.pdf

So what does this voltage do in the circuit?

Is there a way to measure a similar voltage on a FE-5650A or FE-5680A?

Thanks,

Mike M
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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Rex]

I suspect by gas he meant gasoline.

I don't know about what paint remover he meant but I have another 
suggestion that might have worked. For cleaning label gunk off of used 
test equipment I have used automotive bug and tar remover. Seems to 
loosen up lots of gunk but not so strong it hurts the panel paint and 
lettering.



On 7/31/2013 1:51 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Paul,

gas? What gas?

what soft plastic paint remover?

A little more specifics would help if someone is in the need.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 20/07/13 23:22, paul swed wrote:

Hello to the group.
As the various posts mention pulling the outer oven and taped wire 
off is a

job. But thats done.
The Osc is 45 Hz low hot and 200 Hz low cold. Bobs on target with his
comment on what to expect. It does warm up and behave as you might 
expect
but its all relative not exact even according to the 10811 service 
manual.

So it could be off temperature. But very hard to say until I get a
thermocouple in there.
Will say the various rubbery stuff and shock absorbing stuff left one 
heck

of a gooey mess.
Oily sticky stuff.I tried oil, alcohol, turpentine, and finally gas. 
None

really did anything. But what did was a soft plastic paint remover. That
peeled the old tape and goo off very nicely.
What was left was the true glue and that was removable by gas.
It went from a gooey mess that stuck to everything to a pretty clean 
can.
Next I used a small torch one of those small butane refillable units. 
Had
it for years and never really had a use for it till now. I have 
started the

process of opening the can. Thats not complete yet. But I cleaned enough
goo off that when I heat things I don't have a smelly smoldering mess.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
















On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Bob Camp wrote:


Hi

If a 10811 oven is simply not working, the output will be> 400 Hz off
frequency.

Bob

On Jul 19, 2013, at 12:48 PM, ed breya wrote:


Paul,

If the 10811 is that far off, are you sure the oven is working?  A few
years ago mine had a failure of a particular date code range of the 
opamp

that controls the oven, that were prone to failure.at high temperature.
The symptom in the Z3801A was that the outer oven seemed bad - it 
did not

turn on, but it was because it was waiting for the inner one to reach
nominal temperature, but it never did. Once you get it all apart,
replacement of the IC is no big deal, but what a PITA to get to it. I
vaguely recall posting the whole story on that website that has big
coverage of the Z3801A - I can't remember the name, since I haven't 
been
there in a while, but it should be easy to find. The website had all 
kinds

of Z3801A info, including a nice writeup on how to take the oven apart,
which is where I started.


Ed



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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Arnold Tibus]

Magnus,

I am sure he does mean gasoline, petrol, benzine. I apply it quite often
when
other alcohols dont work e.g. spiritus (ethanol). But beware to apply
only the
clean issue which is specially sold for this purpose or that one sold in
small metal cans for the good old cigarette lighters. It is always wise
to make
a little test before to be sure it does not attack the surface or parts
around.
To prevent explosions do it in a good ventilated area or beven better
outside
closed rooms (garden).

Good luck,

Arnold

Am 31.07.2013 10:51, schrieb Magnus Danielson:
> Paul,
>
> gas? What gas?
>
> what soft plastic paint remover?
>
> A little more specifics would help if someone is in the need.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 20/07/13 23:22, paul swed wrote:
>> Hello to the group.
>> As the various posts mention pulling the outer oven and taped wire
>> off is a
>> job. But thats done.
>> The Osc is 45 Hz low hot and 200 Hz low cold. Bobs on target with his
>> comment on what to expect. It does warm up and behave as you might
>> expect
>> but its all relative not exact even according to the 10811 service
>> manual.
>> So it could be off temperature. But very hard to say until I get a
>> thermocouple in there.
>> Will say the various rubbery stuff and shock absorbing stuff left one
>> heck
>> of a gooey mess.
>> Oily sticky stuff.I tried oil, alcohol, turpentine, and finally gas.
>> None
>> really did anything. But what did was a soft plastic paint remover. That
>> peeled the old tape and goo off very nicely.
>> What was left was the true glue and that was removable by gas.
>> It went from a gooey mess that stuck to everything to a pretty clean
>> can.
>> Next I used a small torch one of those small butane refillable units.
>> Had
>> it for years and never really had a use for it till now. I have
>> started the
>> process of opening the can. Thats not complete yet. But I cleaned enough
>> goo off that when I heat things I don't have a smelly smoldering mess.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> If a 10811 oven is simply not working, the output will be>  400 Hz off
>>> frequency.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 12:48 PM, ed breya  wrote:
>>>
 Paul,

 If the 10811 is that far off, are you sure the oven is working?  A few
>>> years ago mine had a failure of a particular date code range of the
>>> opamp
>>> that controls the oven, that were prone to failure.at high temperature.
>>> The symptom in the Z3801A was that the outer oven seemed bad - it
>>> did not
>>> turn on, but it was because it was waiting for the inner one to reach
>>> nominal temperature, but it never did. Once you get it all apart,
>>> replacement of the IC is no big deal, but what a PITA to get to it. I
>>> vaguely recall posting the whole story on that website that has big
>>> coverage of the Z3801A - I can't remember the name, since I haven't
>>> been
>>> there in a while, but it should be easy to find. The website had all
>>> kinds
>>> of Z3801A info, including a nice writeup on how to take the oven apart,
>>> which is where I started.

 Ed

 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Industrial control systems and IEEE 1588v2 time sync

[Bob Camp]

Hi

A number of the chip guys will sell you micro's that have one or more 1588 
ethernet ports on them. Some of them are in the sub $10 range. With a bit of 
Time Nut attention, they seem to be capable of well under 1 us performance. If 
you have a daisy chain network they will do what you need without any switches.

As mentioned above, if your network has modern (gigabit rather than 10 megabit) 
switches on it, you can likely get to 1 us without any fancy time stamping 
switches. There are a few other minor details you would want to pay attention 
to, but they are manageable for a shop floor network.

Bob

On Jul 31, 2013, at 12:19 AM, Bill Hawkins  wrote:

> Group,
> 
> Has anyone used IEEE 1588 to synchronize clocks on an Ethernet network?
> 
> I was involved in the design of time sync for Foundation Fieldbus circa
> 2000.
> We needed one millisecond accuracy, so we went with SNTP on local
> networks.
> I've just seen an ad for a switch that can do 1588, and looked up what
> it does.
> 
> Microsecond accuracy is impressive, but what does it cost?
> 
> Industrial sensors are generally sampled at about 10 millisecond
> intervals out
> to several seconds. SNTP would appear to be very adequate for time
> stamps as
> there is uncertainty introduced by when the computer gets around to
> sampling
> the sensor in its sampling and control cycle.
> 
> Any thoughts appreciated.
> 
> Bill Hawkins
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing

[Bob Camp]

Hi

On Jul 31, 2013, at 6:47 AM, Magnus Danielson  
wrote:

> On 27/07/13 13:19, Brian Alsop wrote:
>> If you know your LORAN has a 1/4 mile accuracy then you stay 1/2 mile
>> away from bad things.
>> 
>> The trouble with GPS is that it is so good, people don't use common
>> sense and give obstacles a wide berth.
> 
> The published civilian precision of GPS isn't much better than LORAN-C, but 
> it gives much better performance now for many reasons, including many birds 
> in view and SA turn-off.
> 
> You do have hit the point, normally GPS works so darn good for most usage, 
> that you perceive it to always be there, out of flaws. It's now with GPS 
> receivers in phones that people start to learn that you can be in 
> radio-shadow...
> 
> GPS is a good service when it is there, but when it isn't quite there or 
> gone, you need to have a backup-plan, and know when to execute it.
> LORAN-C is a good back-up plan.

Except that in practice Loran-C was much less reliable than GPS. Up comes a 
flag that says "GPS & Loran don't agree". The vast majority of the time it'll 
be Loran that's wrong. Very quickly a normal person will default right back to 
the GPS.

Bob

> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Spoofing

[Magnus Danielson]

On 27/07/13 13:19, Brian Alsop wrote:

If you know your LORAN has a 1/4 mile accuracy then you stay 1/2 mile
away from bad things.

The trouble with GPS is that it is so good, people don't use common
sense and give obstacles a wide berth.


The published civilian precision of GPS isn't much better than LORAN-C, 
but it gives much better performance now for many reasons, including 
many birds in view and SA turn-off.


You do have hit the point, normally GPS works so darn good for most 
usage, that you perceive it to always be there, out of flaws. It's now 
with GPS receivers in phones that people start to learn that you can be 
in radio-shadow...


GPS is a good service when it is there, but when it isn't quite there or 
gone, you need to have a backup-plan, and know when to execute it.

LORAN-C is a good back-up plan.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update

[Bob Camp]

Hi

On Jul 31, 2013, at 5:23 AM, Magnus Danielson  
wrote:

> On 26/07/13 22:16, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Well if you get desperate to try it, I have CO2 and a chamber sitting in the 
>> garage. The biggest issue is that if we use too much CO2 for the chamber, 
>> the beer may go flat…
> 
> Can't have that in the name of science, we need good beer after the 
> experiments, and you know that. :)
> 
> What would be good ovens for hobby usage / semi-pro BTW?

It's just like at work - go with a refrigeration setup and get to know the 
service guy real well, or go with a CO2 chamber and become a regular at the gas 
store. The Delta chambers are pretty good for CO2. They show up at auction from 
time to time. Most of what's in them is pretty common stuff, so keeping them 
running isn't all that hard. You can convert them to a non-Delta controller 
without a lot of work if you have to.

Bob

> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Industrial control systems and IEEE 1588v2 time sync

[Peter Bell]

I was involved in some work on industrial controls that used 1588 for
timing.  We only needed microsecond accuracy, and it did that easily - the
basic hardware is simple, we were using STM32 microcontrollers with the
DP83640 PHY.  Since the MCU required a PHY anyway, the additional cost for
the IEEE1588 support was about $3.50/unit ($5 rather than $1.50 in 1000 up
quantities).

The PHY chip also has a (programmable) clock output locked to the 1588
timing, but it appeared to have quite a lot of phase noise on it - I didn't
bother doing any detailed measurements because we weren't actually using it.



On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Bill Hawkins  wrote:

> Group,
>
> Has anyone used IEEE 1588 to synchronize clocks on an Ethernet network?
>
> I was involved in the design of time sync for Foundation Fieldbus circa
> 2000.
> We needed one millisecond accuracy, so we went with SNTP on local
> networks.
> I've just seen an ad for a switch that can do 1588, and looked up what
> it does.
>
> Microsecond accuracy is impressive, but what does it cost?
>
> Industrial sensors are generally sampled at about 10 millisecond
> intervals out
> to several seconds. SNTP would appear to be very adequate for time
> stamps as
> there is uncertainty introduced by when the computer gets around to
> sampling
> the sensor in its sampling and control cycle.
>
> Any thoughts appreciated.
>
> Bill Hawkins
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update

[Magnus Danielson]

On 26/07/13 22:16, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Well if you get desperate to try it, I have CO2 and a chamber sitting in the 
garage. The biggest issue is that if we use too much CO2 for the chamber, the 
beer may go flat…


Can't have that in the name of science, we need good beer after the 
experiments, and you know that. :)


What would be good ovens for hobby usage / semi-pro BTW?

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Interesting (meaningless?) measurement.

[Magnus Danielson]

On 23/07/13 17:44, Brian Alsop wrote:

The standard deviation using the 5335 internal oscillator is 0.39 nS.


Recall that the 5335A has a hardware resolution in their interpolator of 
500 ps, but effectively reports 1 ns resolution as both the start and 
stop contribute error.


Averaging will allow you to average when you have beating, but lacking 
beating your precision will not improve as you will keep hitting the 
same values with some minimum spread. Naturally could some input noise 
from a less than optimal trigger provide the needed spread too. HP5328A 
with Opt. 40 did a similar thing.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Magnus Danielson]

Paul,

gas? What gas?

what soft plastic paint remover?

A little more specifics would help if someone is in the need.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 20/07/13 23:22, paul swed wrote:

Hello to the group.
As the various posts mention pulling the outer oven and taped wire off is a
job. But thats done.
The Osc is 45 Hz low hot and 200 Hz low cold. Bobs on target with his
comment on what to expect. It does warm up and behave as you might expect
but its all relative not exact even according to the 10811 service manual.
So it could be off temperature. But very hard to say until I get a
thermocouple in there.
Will say the various rubbery stuff and shock absorbing stuff left one heck
of a gooey mess.
Oily sticky stuff.I tried oil, alcohol, turpentine, and finally gas. None
really did anything. But what did was a soft plastic paint remover. That
peeled the old tape and goo off very nicely.
What was left was the true glue and that was removable by gas.
It went from a gooey mess that stuck to everything to a pretty clean can.
Next I used a small torch one of those small butane refillable units. Had
it for years and never really had a use for it till now. I have started the
process of opening the can. Thats not complete yet. But I cleaned enough
goo off that when I heat things I don't have a smelly smoldering mess.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
















On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:


Hi

If a 10811 oven is simply not working, the output will be>  400 Hz off
frequency.

Bob

On Jul 19, 2013, at 12:48 PM, ed breya  wrote:


Paul,

If the 10811 is that far off, are you sure the oven is working?  A few

years ago mine had a failure of a particular date code range of the opamp
that controls the oven, that were prone to failure.at high temperature.
The symptom in the Z3801A was that the outer oven seemed bad - it did not
turn on, but it was because it was waiting for the inner one to reach
nominal temperature, but it never did. Once you get it all apart,
replacement of the IC is no big deal, but what a PITA to get to it. I
vaguely recall posting the whole story on that website that has big
coverage of the Z3801A - I can't remember the name, since I haven't been
there in a while, but it should be easy to find. The website had all kinds
of Z3801A info, including a nice writeup on how to take the oven apart,
which is where I started.


Ed

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Re: [time-nuts] Story in the Economist about GPS jamming

[Magnus Danielson]

The MEO/GEO distance difference isn't all that great, and comparable 
signal strength is seen from the WAAS/EGNOS (SBAS in general) without 
too much difficulty in design.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 30/07/13 16:51, bg wrote:

Satnav are not LEO but MEO. Which is good - less sv to cover the earth. Less 
good because distance is higher compared to LEO regarding signal power at earth.

  --

Björn


Skickat från min Mobil

 Originalmeddelande 
Från: Scott McGrath
Datum: 2013-07-30  14:50  (GMT+01:00)
Till: j...@quikus.com,Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement
Kopia: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Rubrik: Re: [time-nuts] Story in the Economist about GPS jamming

Any competent engineer could have told the powers that be that a satellite 
system based in LEO has a relatively high risk profile from the 
Universe/hostile activity/spoofing and jamming

Yes GPS is/was oversold.

Trouble is Clarkes law applies here (any sufficiently advanced technology is 
indistinguishable from magic).  And this applies double to the technological 
illiterates in DC

See Sen 'Tubes' Stevens for the canonical example

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:46 PM, "J. Forster"  wrote:


It seems to me that GPS has been oversold as the be all, end all system
that made all other systems obsolete and GPS has become all but an
indespensible utility.

Reports like this, could well be used to promote a backup, like LORAN or
eLORAN, just as public buildings have backup generators.

YMMV,

-John

==




http://www.economist.com/news/international/21582288-satellite-positioning-data-are-vitalbut-signal-surprisingly-easy-disrupt-out?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/outofsight

 -Bill





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Re: [time-nuts] Story in the Economist about GPS jamming

[Magnus Danielson]

On 30/07/13 16:03, J. Forster wrote:

I think the largest concern about jamming is for civilian uses, rather
than military, mainly because military receivers are designed and built to
be more immune. Also, military systems are far more likely to have good
grade INS.

Furthermore, there are probably a couple of orders of magnitude more
civilian systems in use.


The military receivers have not only better resistance than the average 
civilian, but also enjoy the access to the PPS service, i.e. the keyed 
signals which has greater capability in surpressing jamming signals. 
With modern receivers even having the capability to lock directly into 
the P(Y) signal without use of the much more vulnerable C/A code which 
is the traditional way of locking into P(Y).


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Industrial control systems and IEEE 1588v2 time sync

[Javier Serrano]

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Bill Hawkins  wrote:

>
> Microsecond accuracy is impressive, but what does it cost?
>

 A colleague of mine had a non-exhaustive look at the market 1.5 years ago
[1]. The cheapest PTP switch she could find was the Hirschmann MACH1000,
selling for 5.7 kCHF with 16 ports.

Cheers,

Javier

[1] http://www.ohwr.org/attachments/948/WRintro.pdf or animated PowerPoint
at http://www.ohwr.org/attachments/949/WRintro.pptx
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Re: [time-nuts] Industrial control systems and IEEE 1588v2 time sync

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <2072AA3475FF47539716716917CDBA99@system071>, "Bill Hawkins" writes:

>Has anyone used IEEE 1588 to synchronize clocks on an Ethernet network?

Yes.

>I've just seen an ad for a switch that can do 1588, and looked up what
>it does.
>
>Microsecond accuracy is impressive, but what does it cost?

If you don't need microseconds, you don't need a magic switch,
1588 gets you well below 1msec on regular switches, provided
you don't overload that network segment.

Regular NTP can also get there, if you tweak the poll-rate down,
but 1588 is a more robust protocol.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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