xpect in additional delay, when undoing an
SMA connector by one turn. One turn is about 0.7mm, assuming a VF of 0.6
you get to ~3.5ps.
I am quite impressed that you could measure it this accurately.
What measurement technique do you use?
Attila Kinali
--
The
a bad contact somewhere and
I or someone else caused that to jump from time to time.
Thanks for your time and help!
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophisticati
more detail.
Other than that, the general approach looks ok.
Attila Kinali
[1] "Oscillator metrology with software defined radio",
by Sherman and Jördens, 2016
https://arxiv.org/abs/1605.03505
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately fo
Harding et al measured 89ppm/K.
Attila Kinali
[1] "Spin Resonance Clock Transition of the Endohedral Fullerene 15N@C60",
by Harding, Zhou, Zhou, Myers, Ardavan, Briggs, Porfyrakis, Laird, 2017
https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.119.140801
--
It i
nded by a molecule
in close proximity. This means the surrounding atoms disturb the electrons
of the probed atom. This is what causes the large temperature dependence.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and tech
on windows as well.
If you want to use GnuRadio, I suggest you go to one of the many Hackfests[3]
they have and let them jump-start you (I started this way years ago).
Attila Kinali
[1] https://gnuradio.org/
[2] https://github.com/Microtelecom/
ed
to be -MM-DD by ISO8601, but too many people confused it as
being the "new way" to write dates, so it can be literally anything.
Thanks for the pictures!
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK ch
frequency and the sampling frequency, as any feedthrough of
the LO and its harmonics will lead to a DC offset and spurs. The amplitude
of both will depend on the exact phase relation between the LO frequency
and the sampling frequency, which is usually stable, but not time-nuts stable.
mentiones AM noise levels. The best I could find sofar is [1]
which supports the notion that AM noise is so far below PM noise, that
it is insignificant. Does someone else have more data and would be willing
to share?
Attila Kinali
[1] http://www.wenzel.com/documents
to how it happens.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Ag
ve a white noise floor at almost -174dBm (note: dBm not dBc).
It is "known" how to build such oscillators, but it doesn't mean it's easy :-)
Attila Kinali
[1] "A General Theory of Phase Noise in Electrical Oscillators",
Hajimiri and Lee, 1998
[2] "How Low Can They Go?
XO that mentiones "programable" in its datasheet.
These are XO + fractional PLL combinations where the PLL allows quick
and cheap realization of odd frequencies. But their spurs and noise floor
is much worse than normal XOs.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualit
t economical,
probably should aim for 100.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamo
be either
passive or you need an external bias-T. The LEA's can provide up
to 50mA (so no Zephyr!).
If you want to step up your game and get even better stability,
take one of the LEA based GPSDOs (like the Star4 mentioned above).
Attila Kinali
--
It is u
The reason why most people do not do this is easily explained: it's more
difficult to get a stable system with nested loops, as the conditions
for stability becomes more complex than with just a standard, straight
forward PID loop.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon
needs to be replaced/repaired every 20 to 30 years.
Most likely the power supply will die well before you get even to
the Rb failing.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication
r an Rb in such a unit.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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of the sky and only have 1-2 satellites
most of the time, then the position hold mode is the difference between
>1µs jitter and <100ns jitter, as Said Jackson noted a few years ago.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
gh quality blocking capacitors rated for GHz use. Using 3-terminal
pass through capacitors like the Murata EMIFIL[1] goes a long way
for these kind of applications (at only a slightly higher price than
normal capacitors).
Attila Kinali
[1] https://www.murata.com/en-glo
s in control.
There is a small detail that puzzles me: the ADEV for the internal
reference 10MHz and 30MHz bends upwards at tau greater than 0.1s.
Shouldn't that be visible by a change in slope in the phase noise
plot at ~10Hz as well?
Attila Kinali
--
It is up
cheaper (because
it doesn't require the couple of µm precision between the resonator
and the holder/elctrodes the BVA has).
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the wor
not read about anyone
doing exactly that (beside for SAW structures).
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
know
> of any L1 / L2 gear that puts out 5 rather than 12V ….
Well, that's at least a very easy modification. Just open up the connection
between the bias-T and the LNA and insert some LM1117 or better an TPS7A45xx.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualiti
seen that it does, and just "adjusted" the specs. But in reality,
the LNA still maxes out at 5V if you want a reliable device.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:03:20 -0800
wrote:
> You do NOT want to take one apart to this level!
>
> It's never going to operate again.
Why not? Is there something you had to break to open it up this far?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities tha
ude worse than
> something like an LT3042 low noise regulator.
It's >30dB for broadband noise, according to Gerhard Hoffmann's measurement:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/24070698809/in/album-72157662535945536/
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon mor
other disturbances.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond A
sity
of the LED, thus potentially less instability due to light-shift variation.
Beside the LED operation being much simpler than that of a discharge lamp
and overall less heat dissipation.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
ck it to the
right line. This requires either some significant change to the
electronics of the Rb standard, or an additional vapor cell and
some optics to lock it to that cell. Neither is trivial (apparently,
according to the papers I've read, not difficult, but I don't trust
that until I have t
hat
you need hard gold for connector contacts, which is different from the
standard gold plating you will get as surface finish.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the worl
y, as it then would limit your 1/f noise and
determine your leakage current.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use with
7;t be a problem (phase reversal is prevented by the 10k
input resistor).
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
db is the goal for those spurs, you might
> only
> hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..
Interesting. About what frequency range are you talking?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technol
832-129-Cesium-Frequency-Standard-Atomic-Clock/112745451687
Just saying...
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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by various components in
the signal path. But our mathematical description is lacking
at best (we only can descirbe white and 1/f^2 noise properly).
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological so
rge injection noise be too large
for this application?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
for way too long:
http://time.kinali.ch/Efratom_FRK-L/
Yes, there are only the pictures of the four PCBs from outside.
I didn't want to take the FRK further appart, as that would
require a soldering iron, and I really should be doing something
else.
Attila Kinali
--
It i
anufactured for
hi-rel applications.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamon
, with properly filtered current sources. Nothing difficult,
but you have to design it properly because you are dealing with mains power.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in
K-L manual on Didier's site.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson,
gt; To get pricing registration is required.
The Sacher module is a neat little device, that integrates all of the
components needed into a tiny little package. More information on its
construction and performance can be found in [6] (note: their calculation
of linewidth is wrong, it shou
uartz watch :-)
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil
it's very accurate. I guess they use
the internal termperature sensor to compensate the crystal.
How they get to sub-ppm stability over half a year, I have no clue.
And this one is almost 20 years old.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimatel
ft (and probably other deterministic
effects) before calculating ADEV.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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l power supply is lost.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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cells
(e.g. a CR2032 is specced in the order of 100-300nA self-discharge).
For the smaller cells, you have to check which one is larger, but
they are of the same order of magnitude.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. Al
s-of-ten-tvb.pdf
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age,
stal
> all the time.
The the watches (quartz with analog dials) I have run >5 years
on their batteries, an I am pretty sure they don't have a CR2032.
And at least one of them must have a TCXO.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ult
Ls?
If yes, what should I read? (My google foo didn't return
anything helpful).
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without
ipates something around
100 to 200W of heat, constantly but this is going a bit too OT I guess :-)
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use w
eceiver at all train stations,
with a few exceptions where reception was bad (there, they got a
special permission to use DCF77 instead). I have no idea what
they use these days for synchronization.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where t
ever leaves the cell in a usable form.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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olled raise in power supply voltage and might exceed
the rating of your circuit.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
rface (yes, GnuRadio can be used for more
than just to look for long lost satellites with oversized antennas ;-).
This way you don't even need a 90° hybrid or anything similarly
temperature sensitive.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where
equency between 200Hz and 1kHz should
do the job, Which is slow enough so you can still handle the
samples with the uC alone and don't need any fancy DSP.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
d to heavy ringing)of course, this is under
the assumption that the spice model of the LT3042 is accurate in that
regard.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world
of this is wrong and what am I missing?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond
wavelength.
As for intensity noise, yes, it's not glorious with lasers, but
most papers I've read have a stabilization for that as well, so
it gets attenuated a bit.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
ant too long.
Attila Kinali
[1] http://www.ke5fx.com/rb.htm
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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an
external frequency source, you should be able to related that
frequency source to WWV.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundati
at. And from personal experience
I can say that it's much more likely that easily available papers
get cited than one that is behind an inpenetrable pay-wall.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate
settings while running Oh, and don't even try
to run anything ontop of pulseaudio, it is known to mess up
audio timing by several 10ms, sometimes even over 100ms.
Attila Kinali
[1] https://gist.github.com/albanpeignier/104902
--
The bad part of Zurich is where th
50 Ohm system
for termal noise. I do not remember reading anything about flicker
noise, but my guess would be that it decreases as well.
I am sure I have some paper on this somewhere in my collection,
if you want I can dig it out.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad
like in
the TICC.
Of course, you will need a standard that is stable enough on the
time scales you are looking at. Which is for short taus (<100s)
a good OCXO and for 1s to 10ks an Rb, and beyond that a Cs beam
standard or hydrogen maser.
Attila Kinali
--
The
-15bit @500kHz,
1ps rms should be around 18bits, if I'm not mistaken.
To measure the performance, I would just build the device and feed it
with an appropriate sine wave. Then analyze the SNR and spurs of the
sampled signal.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities
gt; the jitter, so the flop is probably better.
I heard similar numbers for the NB7V52 last week at EFTF. So you
cannot be that far off.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw
to configure it
and a VCXO/VCO should also work.
Attila Kinali
--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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doesn`t have the same bug], or a 74HC7046AN - which is similar. Both these
> chips are more-or-less pin compatable TIA for any
What design flaw are you talking about?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the
Hi,
Some of you might already know, I will fly to the US west coast
to attend IFCS. Afterwards, I will be in Seattle for a couple of
days (from 25th to 31st). If you are in the area and want to meet up,
please drop me an email (off-list).
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon
Hoi zäme!
Would one (preferably multiple) of the owners of a super-5065 be so kind
and share the raw phase data of an super-5065 against a stable reference
with me? The longer the data trace, the better.
Thanks in advance!
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities
thus lower noise,
which directly translates into higher stability.
As polarisation scheme, I suggest using σ+/σ- as it seems to be more
robust than the lin/lin schemes.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and tec
nished how expensive those VCSEL are.
I would have guessed they are below $100/pcs, given that "normal"
laser diodes are usually in the order of $10-$20.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity a
Q cavity to avoid pulling) down. The current state
of affairs is quite nicely documented in their two papers at 8FSM[1,2,3].
Attila Kinali
[1] Proceedings of the 8th Symposium on Frequency Standards and Metrology
http://conferenceseries.iop.org/conferenceseries/issue
ge should
give you enough margin.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond
it as something more standard?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age,
mp brightness changes.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond
than they
put into the datasheet. They do not include it because they can either
not sufficiently control those parameters during production, cannot
test for it or testing would be too expensive.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded.
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 15:14:55 +0200
Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Do we have the raw measurements in a readable format?
Yes, you can find them at
http://time.kinali.ch/phase_data/luciano/
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded.
e.g. an Rb vapor cell standard.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, Th
nd thus should also have a way to access it as TAI.
Attila Kinali
[1] IEEE 1003.1-2004 System Interfaces, Section 2.8.5 Clocks and Timers
[2] clock_gettime(2)
--
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
__
them
at the time when the picture has been taken.
Some usefull software projects are:
http://astro.corlan.net/gcx/
http://www.clearskyinstitute.com/xephem/
http://starlink.eao.hawaii.edu/starlink
http://astro.corlan.net/avsomat/index.html
http://rhodesmill.org/pyephem/
HTH
x27;t
be too difficult to get the data into GR, once you get it into your PC.
Writing an signal source for GR is pretty easy. The big challenge is
getting the data into the PC with high rate and that largely depends on
your choice of hardware interface between the FPGA and the PC.
of desaster on this list, but it's usually ok to offer
this kind of stuff, as long as it is time-nut related.
Gruess und guets neus!
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in
revent hydrogen build-ups on the
ceiling while initially flooding the furnace or shuting it off.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foun
Hoi Mathias!
On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 17:55:32 +0100
Mathias Weyland wrote:
> On 2017-01-02 12:18, Attila Kinali wrote:
> > May I ask what you want to achieve? Resp. what you need a 10MHz
> > reference for?
>
> I've always been wondering about those devices, I guess out o
it's known
to be an biased estimator? And why do people not use s when using (n-1)?
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without
or the use of s, consider the frequency stability. See Allan 1966.
I guess you are refering to [3]. Yes Allan does give tables on the expected
difference of variance for some types of noise, but not explicitly on why
σ and not s is being used.
Attila Kinali
[1] htt
cks and I am not sure anymore that even
the most basic one (that the noise is Gaussian, even for the 1/f^a noise)
holds in all cases.
Attila Kinali
--
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
__
short summary of the problem.
Attila Kinali
[1] "Handbook of Frequency Stability Analysis" NIST Special Pub 1065,
by W.J. Riley, 2008
http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/2220.pdf
--
Malek's Law:
Any simple idea will be worded in the most complicated way.
__
think, pretty
obvious. I would recommend that you solder each cell indidividually
into your circuit instead of using some kind of holder. Or if you are
using a holder, make it such that there is no chance any of the cells
can be accidentally short circuited.
Attila Kinali
--
Ma
ions"
by Karstensen et al. 2013
Poster:
https://www.ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz/special-interest/mavt/design-materials-fabrication/composite-materials-dam/Research/Posters/067.pdf
Paper: https://escies.org/download/webDocumentFile?id=60894
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qu
., you might need to
send it in for an expensive repair.
Attila Kinali
--
You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common.
They don't alters their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to
fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if y
/time-nuts/2013-March/074979.html
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age,
from 1s to a few 100s. Long term seems
to be limited by temperature stability, creep of spacer material and
mirror aging (no particular order).
I haven't had a look at this topic in a while so I cannot tell you
what the current state of the art is.
Attila Kinali
[1] &quo
case, as I want to
verify that the assumptions made in the mathematical models
have a foundation in the real physical implementations.
Thanks in advance
Attila Kinali
[1] For those interested: If you think that calculus or stochastic
was difficult, imagine what
uct.
Attila Kinali
[1] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/1
[2] http://www.nature.com/articles/srep02132/figures/2
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use with
f crystals, because that's one thing less I have to care about.
But even with these oscillators, there is only a limited number of frequencies
that are easy to get. Those are again the standard frequencies from above,
and a couple of round numbers (like multiples of 10MHz)
ical skills. IMHO it's much easier to just
get a known-good GPSDO and a rubidium for verification.
Attila Kinali
[1] https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-November/101913.html
[2] https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-November/101939.html
--
You know
ized XO will not come close to time-nuts standards ;-)
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
-- Miss
e resonance/peak. I do not know how much better/worse
this selectivity compared to the bending magnets is, though.
Attila Kinali
--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the wor
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