Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Bruce Griffiths]

Interesting in that the internal construction is similar to the 5.55MHz CTS 
OCXO opened (with a propane torch - nothing inside can was damaged) to deduce 
out the pinout and the supply voltage.Oscillator circuit was similar although 
the output buffer was a CMOS flipflop that divided the  oscillator frequency by 
2. Output was 5V CMOS level.
The BSV52 is normally intended to be used as a fast saturated switch in that 
its storage time is only a few (13) ns. Traditionally gold doping (although 
caesium is another possibility) is used to achieve a sufficiently low minority 
carrier lifetime.Gold doping reduces current gain and usually increases the low 
frequency noise.

If you open a few more OCXOs you will find that a lot of the newer ones use a 
CMOS chip as the output buffer even with a sine output.

Bruce
 

On Friday, 4 March 2016 3:03 PM, Daniel Watson  
wrote:
 

 Hi all,

I worked out the schematic for the CTS OCXO. You can find it here:

http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/03/schematic-of-cts-1960017-10mhz-ocxo..html



Best regards,

Dan W.
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Daniel Watson]

Hi all,

I worked out the schematic for the CTS OCXO. You can find it here:

http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/03/schematic-of-cts-1960017-10mhz-ocxo.html



Best regards,

Dan W.
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Gregory Muir]

Bob,

I was referring to the bulk of the conversations on this device where people 
were finding 60 Hz related artifacts.

Greg

>On Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 21:11:19 -0500
>From: Bob Camp wrote:
>
>Hi
>
>On some parts the spur shows up in the 40 to 80 Hz range. 
>That pretty much rules out the line frequency.
>
>Bob

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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The spectrum plots and scope plots do not look like a blocking oscillator. They 
look very much 
like an internal spur generated by something in the circuit taking off at low 
frequency. 

Bob


> On Mar 1, 2016, at 10:09 AM, Alex Pummer  wrote:
> 
> sometimes high frequency oscillators could get in certain mode of operation 
> the "blocking oscillation" see here: 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_oscillator, also it could happen, that 
> the high frequency oscillation does not stops entirely, just undergoes an 
> amplitude fluctuation, that could cause side bands on both side of the 
> carrier. Blocking oscillation could happen because of to strong positive 
> feedback -- due to design error or component error. The dumping of that 
> product on e-Bay also could be a sign of a to late recognized error
> 73
> KJ6UHN
> 
> On 2/29/2016 2:04 PM, Gregory Muir wrote:
>> Not sure if I am missing something here or not but an early mention was made 
>> regarding synching the test equipment used to the 60 Hz line to see if the 
>> purported 60 Hz anomaly is actually synchronous or asynchronous.  I haven't 
>> heard anything regarding this since then.
>> 
>> Greg
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>> -
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Alex Pummer]

sometimes high frequency oscillators could get in certain mode of 
operation the "blocking oscillation" see here: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_oscillator, also it could happen, 
that the high frequency oscillation does not stops entirely, just 
undergoes an amplitude fluctuation, that could cause side bands on both 
side of the carrier. Blocking oscillation could happen because of to 
strong positive feedback -- due to design error or component error. The 
dumping of that product on e-Bay also could be a sign of a to late 
recognized error

73
KJ6UHN

On 2/29/2016 2:04 PM, Gregory Muir wrote:

Not sure if I am missing something here or not but an early mention was made 
regarding synching the test equipment used to the 60 Hz line to see if the 
purported 60 Hz anomaly is actually synchronous or asynchronous.  I haven't 
heard anything regarding this since then.

Greg
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7442 / Virus Database: 4537/11724 - Release Date: 03/01/16


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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Bob Camp]

Hi

On some parts the spur shows up in the 40 to 80 Hz range. 
That pretty much rules out the line frequency.

Bob

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 5:04 PM, Gregory Muir  wrote:
> 
> Not sure if I am missing something here or not but an early mention was made 
> regarding synching the test equipment used to the 60 Hz line to see if the 
> purported 60 Hz anomaly is actually synchronous or asynchronous.  I haven't 
> heard anything regarding this since then.
> 
> Greg
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Gregory Muir]

Not sure if I am missing something here or not but an early mention was made 
regarding synching the test equipment used to the 60 Hz line to see if the 
purported 60 Hz anomaly is actually synchronous or asynchronous.  I haven't 
heard anything regarding this since then.

Greg
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Rob Sherwood .]

I have two Perseus, one in my Denver lab and one on loan to N0QO. Adam in 
Canada has his own Perseus, CTS module and some other lab supply.  

It looks like one of the disassembled CTS modules also has spurs in the 40 to 
70-Hz range.  Some kind of oscillation.  

I'll get back to this issue after some other projects are finished.

Rob
NC0B


Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 29, 2016, at 1:01 PM, "Tom Holmes" <thol...@woh.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Rob...
> 
> Are you and Adam using the same Perseus receiver for your measurements?
> 
> Have you looked at another similar type (as in small PCB configuration) and 
> powered (as in from your HP supply) oscillator for comparison?
> 
> Not to beat the PS question to death, but does a battery supply change the 
> outcome?
> 
> Tom Holmes, N8ZM
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Rob Sherwood.
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 7:20 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
> 
> Both  Adam and I measure the same spurs.  Rob, NC0B
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Graham / KE9H
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 2:08 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
> 
> 
> 
> Rob:
> Are you sure you were running it with a clean power supply?
> Any 60 Hz ripple on the supply could show up as AM/PM modulation.
> You might want to try another 5V power supply before you give up on the 
> oscillator.
> --- Graham
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Tom Holmes]

Rob...

Are you and Adam using the same Perseus receiver for your measurements?

Have you looked at another similar type (as in small PCB configuration) and 
powered (as in from your HP supply) oscillator for comparison?

Not to beat the PS question to death, but does a battery supply change the 
outcome?

Tom Holmes, N8ZM

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Rob Sherwood.
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 7:20 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

Both  Adam and I measure the same spurs.  Rob, NC0B

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Graham / KE9H
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 2:08 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO



Rob:
Are you sure you were running it with a clean power supply?
Any 60 Hz ripple on the supply could show up as AM/PM modulation.
You might want to try another 5V power supply before you give up on the 
oscillator.
--- Graham




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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Pete Lancashire]

Pretty much agree with Dave M. But just like HP, PDI had their basic
supplies and their 'low noise/ripple' models, and of course the model with
the heater for voltage stability. The one Dave is talking about has a temp
controlled voltage reference. The easiest way to tell is there is
a 'HEATER' light on the front panel.

I'll toss in a 3rd company, Kepco. So for me its PDI, Kepco, and a HP.

Sounds like I should finish that web page I started of the low noise/ripple
models from the three makes.



On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Dave M  wrote:

> Pete Lancashire wrote:
>
>> ... I was using an HP lab supply>>>
>>
>> Model ? Age ?
>>
>> My bench has some pretty old HP's even Harrison Lab branded supplies.
>> I
>> have had to re-cap a few of them.
>> In a way it is almost a curse how reliable their supplies were. You
>> always got the V and I you wanted so one
>> never thought about the filtering getting worse over the years.
>>
>> Also HP had two variations of their bench supplies. The basic ones
>> and the low noise versions. When I need
>> to make measurement like this, I make sure I'm using one of the low
>> noise/ripple models.
>>
>>
> Adding my few cents' worth to the power supply ripple/noise thoughts, I've
> found that the old linear supplies by Power Designs Inc were among the
> best, at considerably lower cost than the HP/Harrison Labs units.
> Ripple/Noise in the low millivolts and high microvolts, 0.01 - 0.005%
> regulation and temperature stability in the neighborhood of 0.01%/degC were
> common.
> I have a couple on my bench, and they just keep on working.  They still
> pop up at auction frequently.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave M
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Bob Camp]

Hi

For a lot of years the Power Designs supplies were the best kept secret 
in the business. Everybody thought they had “discovered” them for phase
noise testing. 

They still are a pretty good deal surplus.

Bob

> On Feb 28, 2016, at 10:25 PM, Dave M  wrote:
> 
> Pete Lancashire wrote:
>> ... I was using an HP lab supply>>>
>> 
>> Model ? Age ?
>> 
>> My bench has some pretty old HP's even Harrison Lab branded supplies.
>> I
>> have had to re-cap a few of them.
>> In a way it is almost a curse how reliable their supplies were. You
>> always got the V and I you wanted so one
>> never thought about the filtering getting worse over the years.
>> 
>> Also HP had two variations of their bench supplies. The basic ones
>> and the low noise versions. When I need
>> to make measurement like this, I make sure I'm using one of the low
>> noise/ripple models.
>> 
> 
> Adding my few cents' worth to the power supply ripple/noise thoughts, I've 
> found that the old linear supplies by Power Designs Inc were among the best, 
> at considerably lower cost than the HP/Harrison Labs units.
> Ripple/Noise in the low millivolts and high microvolts, 0.01 - 0.005% 
> regulation and temperature stability in the neighborhood of 0.01%/degC were 
> common.
> I have a couple on my bench, and they just keep on working.  They still pop 
> up at auction frequently.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave M 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Jeremy Nichols]

My T-bolt is running on a Power-one International Series HCAS-60W-A supply,
hefty enough to run at least 4 more. Ripple and noise measure less than 100
micro-volts peak-to-peak. The T-bolt seems quite happy.

Jeremy


On Sunday, February 28, 2016, Dave M  wrote:

> Pete Lancashire wrote:
>
>> ... I was using an HP lab supply>>>
>>
>> Model ? Age ?
>>
>> My bench has some pretty old HP's even Harrison Lab branded supplies.
>> I
>> have had to re-cap a few of them.
>> In a way it is almost a curse how reliable their supplies were. You
>> always got the V and I you wanted so one
>> never thought about the filtering getting worse over the years.
>>
>> Also HP had two variations of their bench supplies. The basic ones
>> and the low noise versions. When I need
>> to make measurement like this, I make sure I'm using one of the low
>> noise/ripple models.
>>
>>
> Adding my few cents' worth to the power supply ripple/noise thoughts, I've
> found that the old linear supplies by Power Designs Inc were among the
> best, at considerably lower cost than the HP/Harrison Labs units.
> Ripple/Noise in the low millivolts and high microvolts, 0.01 - 0.005%
> regulation and temperature stability in the neighborhood of 0.01%/degC were
> common.
> I have a couple on my bench, and they just keep on working.  They still
> pop up at auction frequently.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave M
>
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-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Dave M]

Pete Lancashire wrote:

... I was using an HP lab supply>>>

Model ? Age ?

My bench has some pretty old HP's even Harrison Lab branded supplies.
I
have had to re-cap a few of them.
In a way it is almost a curse how reliable their supplies were. You
always got the V and I you wanted so one
never thought about the filtering getting worse over the years.

Also HP had two variations of their bench supplies. The basic ones
and the low noise versions. When I need
to make measurement like this, I make sure I'm using one of the low
noise/ripple models.



Adding my few cents' worth to the power supply ripple/noise thoughts, I've 
found that the old linear supplies by Power Designs Inc were among the best, 
at considerably lower cost than the HP/Harrison Labs units.
Ripple/Noise in the low millivolts and high microvolts, 0.01 - 0.005% 
regulation and temperature stability in the neighborhood of 0.01%/degC were 
common.
I have a couple on my bench, and they just keep on working.  They still pop 
up at auction frequently.


Cheers,
Dave M 



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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Bob Camp]

Hi

We have at least one example of the spurs being in the 40 to 80 Hz range 
“depending”. That strongly suggests that the original analysis is correct and 
that it is a spur in the OCXO rather than line noise induced issues in a test
setup.

Bob

> On Feb 28, 2016, at 5:49 PM, Bill Byrom  wrote:
> 
> If the spurs are at exactly 60 Hz multiples (not 120 Hz or 180 Hz) and
> you are in an area with 60 Hz line power you might have magnetic field
> coupling from nearby power transformers. Normal conductive shielding
> won't solve this issue, and Mu-Metal or other high permeability low
> frequency materials must be used. The voltage induced in ground loops by
> AC magnetic field depends on the area enclosed by the loop, so twisting
> wiring can help in some cases.
> 
> I suggest a test as follows:
> * If possible, move the DUT (device under test) to an area which is at
>   least a couple of meters from AC mains power lines and transformers
>   connected to AC mains power. Power the DUT from a battery based
>   supply. Keep any galvanic connection (any conductive wires or metal
>   cases touching metal benches) away from the DUT, except a single
>   safety ground wire.
> * If that's not easy (and I don't that level of isolation is practical
>   for most of us), then turn off all AC mains line powered equipment
>   within a couple of meters of the DUT. Unplug all equipment nearby
>   from the AC mains power line, then plug the power supply used by the
>   DUT and the minimum test equipment required for the 60 Hz spur test
>   into a single quality AC power strip. This single AC power strip
>   (with only the DUT supply and critical test equipment) should be the
>   only item plugged into the nearby AC mains power sockets. Using a
>   single quality power strip will establish a safety wire ground which
>   is nearly a single point ground. In some buildings there can be
>   problems if the safety ground wires for different AC mains line
>   sockets have different potentials due to connected equipment or water
>   pipe or other external connections.
> * Keep any transformers which are plugged into the AC mains line power
>   as far as possible from the DUT and the connections between the power
>   supply, DUT, and any test equipment.
> * Be sure to turn off any nearby AC mains line powered lighting in the
>   area and see if that changes the spurs.
> * Connect a heavy gauge (such as #10) copper wire between the metal
>   chassis or other ground point on the test equipment, power supply,
>   and DUT and see if the spur level changes. If it does, then you have
>   ground loop problems. The effective source impedance of magnetically
>   coupled currents is very low, so it can be difficult to eliminate
>   them completely. Single point ground systems are usually a good idea.
> --
> Bill Byrom N5BB
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote:
>> Could it be microphonic capacitors, or the crystal itself ?
>> Have you got a big old heavy power supply with a buzzing transformer on
>> your workbench ?
>> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Bill Byrom]

If the spurs are at exactly 60 Hz multiples (not 120 Hz or 180 Hz) and
you are in an area with 60 Hz line power you might have magnetic field
coupling from nearby power transformers. Normal conductive shielding
won't solve this issue, and Mu-Metal or other high permeability low
frequency materials must be used. The voltage induced in ground loops by
AC magnetic field depends on the area enclosed by the loop, so twisting
wiring can help in some cases.

I suggest a test as follows:
 * If possible, move the DUT (device under test) to an area which is at
   least a couple of meters from AC mains power lines and transformers
   connected to AC mains power. Power the DUT from a battery based
   supply. Keep any galvanic connection (any conductive wires or metal
   cases touching metal benches) away from the DUT, except a single
   safety ground wire.
 * If that's not easy (and I don't that level of isolation is practical
   for most of us), then turn off all AC mains line powered equipment
   within a couple of meters of the DUT. Unplug all equipment nearby
   from the AC mains power line, then plug the power supply used by the
   DUT and the minimum test equipment required for the 60 Hz spur test
   into a single quality AC power strip. This single AC power strip
   (with only the DUT supply and critical test equipment) should be the
   only item plugged into the nearby AC mains power sockets. Using a
   single quality power strip will establish a safety wire ground which
   is nearly a single point ground. In some buildings there can be
   problems if the safety ground wires for different AC mains line
   sockets have different potentials due to connected equipment or water
   pipe or other external connections.
 * Keep any transformers which are plugged into the AC mains line power
   as far as possible from the DUT and the connections between the power
   supply, DUT, and any test equipment.
 * Be sure to turn off any nearby AC mains line powered lighting in the
   area and see if that changes the spurs.
 * Connect a heavy gauge (such as #10) copper wire between the metal
   chassis or other ground point on the test equipment, power supply,
   and DUT and see if the spur level changes. If it does, then you have
   ground loop problems. The effective source impedance of magnetically
   coupled currents is very low, so it can be difficult to eliminate
   them completely. Single point ground systems are usually a good idea.
--
Bill Byrom N5BB
 
 
 
On Sun, Feb 28, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote:
> Could it be microphonic capacitors, or the crystal itself ?
> Have you got a big old heavy power supply with a buzzing transformer on
> your workbench ?
>  
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Pete Lancashire]

... I was using an HP lab supply>>>

Model ? Age ?

My bench has some pretty old HP's even Harrison Lab branded supplies. I
have had to re-cap a few of them.
In a way it is almost a curse how reliable their supplies were. You always
got the V and I you wanted so one
never thought about the filtering getting worse over the years.

Also HP had two variations of their bench supplies. The basic ones and the
low noise versions. When I need
to make measurement like this, I make sure I'm using one of the low
noise/ripple models.

Another thing that is pretty easy to eliminate is radiated 60 Hz. Build a
cell (box). A very simple disposable one
can be from a corrugated box, aluminum foil, and a few feed through
connections.

Any lighting not based on piece of tungsten wire ?

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Rob Sherwood. <r...@nc0b.com> wrote:

> I cannot say exactly, as I measured it as 59 Hz.  VA7OJ measured it as 60
> Hz.  I was using an HP lab supply, and Adam was using some other lab
> supply.  I put a 500 uF capacitor across the Vcc pin and it had no effect.
> I don't think it has anything to do with the power supply since both of us
> saw the same thing.  If an attachment will go through this reflector, I can
> post a spectrum analyzer screen shot.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of jimlux
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 12:07 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
>
>
>
> On 2/27/16 9:35 AM, Rob Sherwood. wrote:
> > Hi Dan,
> >
> > I purchased two of these, and VA7OJ one.  One of mine is defective, and
> the seller is going to replace it.  What was disappointing was all the
> spurious at 60 Hz intervals relatively close-in to the 10 MHz carrier.  I
> suppose if all one wants is a reasonably accurate 10 MHz, then they work
> OK.  My good one and Adam's unit were 1x10^7 low in frequency once warmed
> up, and there are pins for frequency adjustment and sync to another
> standard.  However if one wanted it for an oscillator with good close-in
> phase noise, the spurs ruin that hope.
> >
> > Do you know if there is a chopper at 60 Hz that runs the proportional
> oven that is the source of all the spurious?
> >
>
>
> Is it right at line frequency, or is it "close" to 60 Hz?
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Adrian Godwin]

Could it be microphonic capacitors, or the crystal itself ?
Have you got a big old heavy power supply with a buzzing transformer on
your workbench ?


On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Daniel Watson <watsondani...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I put one in a freezer and measured the current draw. At -12*C, it drew
> about 320 mA steady state (1.6W).
>
> Dan
>
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Rob Sherwood. <r...@nc0b.com> wrote:
>
> > The part draws 600 mA during warm-up, and drops to around 230 to 200 mA
> > when stabilized.
> > Rob
> > NC0B
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> Camp
> > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 2:26 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > A small air gap is actually a better insulator than conventional foam.
> You
> > don’t get much of a convection cell going at those spacings. The part
> > likely pulls a bit over a watt at room.
> >
> > If you put an insulator on the gizmo you increase it’s thermal gain. That
> > will most likely make the temperature performance significantly worse.
> See
> > the good old papers on the HP super ovens for all the details.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > On Feb 27, 2016, at 12:44 PM, Tom Miller <tmiller11...@verizon.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message - From: "Daniel Watson"
> > > <watsondani...@gmail.com>
> > > To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 11:48 AM
> > > Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available
> > >> on eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack
> one
> > open.
> > >> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to
> > >> the list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
> > >>
> > >> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-19600
> > >> 17.html
> > >>
> > >> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It
> > >> seems pretty straightforward inside though.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Best regards,
> > >>
> > >> Dan W.
> > >
> > > Looks like it would use a lot of power in a cold environment. Maybe a
> > second oven would be nice. They seem to have marked the turnover temp on
> > the xtal.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Daniel Watson]

Hi,

I put one in a freezer and measured the current draw. At -12*C, it drew
about 320 mA steady state (1.6W).

Dan

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Rob Sherwood. <r...@nc0b.com> wrote:

> The part draws 600 mA during warm-up, and drops to around 230 to 200 mA
> when stabilized.
> Rob
> NC0B
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 2:26 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> A small air gap is actually a better insulator than conventional foam. You
> don’t get much of a convection cell going at those spacings. The part
> likely pulls a bit over a watt at room.
>
> If you put an insulator on the gizmo you increase it’s thermal gain. That
> will most likely make the temperature performance significantly worse. See
> the good old papers on the HP super ovens for all the details.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 27, 2016, at 12:44 PM, Tom Miller <tmiller11...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > - Original Message - From: "Daniel Watson"
> > <watsondani...@gmail.com>
> > To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 11:48 AM
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
> >
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available
> >> on eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one
> open.
> >> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to
> >> the list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
> >>
> >> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-19600
> >> 17.html
> >>
> >> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It
> >> seems pretty straightforward inside though.
> >>
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Dan W.
> >
> > Looks like it would use a lot of power in a cold environment. Maybe a
> second oven would be nice. They seem to have marked the turnover temp on
> the xtal.
> >
> > Regards
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Alex Pummer]

Hi Dan
 how many of these oscillators have that low freq.hum?
73
KJ6UHN
Alex

On 2/27/2016 6:25 PM, Daniel Watson wrote:

Hi,

Attached is a plot of the output frequency difference from 10MHz during
warm-up. I believe this indicates the crystal is SC cut.

The VREF and EFC pins on the unit do work. The VREF is 4.1V.

I probed around the board of the unit I cracked open and found a low
frequency oscillation. It seems to vary from 40 to 90 Hz depending on where
the unit is in the warm-up cycle, and what I'm doing to it. With the can
cut off, the unit draws almost 50% more power than normal trying to
maintain temperature, so it's possible this is offset from what has been
reported in normal units.

In the photos, you may have noticed two sets of large, unpopulated pads on
the board near the output. I experimented with putting 10uF capacitors
across those. That killed the output, but the low frequency oscillation
could still be detected further back in the circuit.


Dan

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:


Nice teardown. I was looking at that listing just yesterday. I am tempted,
but don't know what I'd do with 40.

The real question is, how do they perform?

Joe Gray
W5JG
On Feb 27, 2016 9:48 AM, "Daniel Watson"  wrote:


Hi,

I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one

open.

I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:




http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html

Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
pretty straightforward inside though.


Best regards,

Dan W.
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-
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Rob Sherwood .]

The part draws 600 mA during warm-up, and drops to around 230 to 200 mA when 
stabilized.
Rob
NC0B

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 2:26 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO



Hi

A small air gap is actually a better insulator than conventional foam. You 
don’t get much of a convection cell going at those spacings. The part likely 
pulls a bit over a watt at room.

If you put an insulator on the gizmo you increase it’s thermal gain. That will 
most likely make the temperature performance significantly worse. See the good 
old papers on the HP super ovens for all the details.

Bob

> On Feb 27, 2016, at 12:44 PM, Tom Miller <tmiller11...@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Daniel Watson" 
> <watsondani...@gmail.com>
> To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 11:48 AM
> Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
> 
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available 
>> on eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
>> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to 
>> the list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
>> 
>> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-19600
>> 17.html
>> 
>> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It 
>> seems pretty straightforward inside though.
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Dan W.
> 
> Looks like it would use a lot of power in a cold environment. Maybe a second 
> oven would be nice. They seem to have marked the turnover temp on the xtal.
> 
> Regards
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Rob Sherwood .]

I would have to make the measurement again with the HP supply off.
I have measured my Rubidium and my GPSDO and never seen anything like this 
spectra of close-spaced spurious. 
I'll send you some more data direct.
Rob
NC0B


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 3:32 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO




r...@nc0b.com said:
> I cannot say exactly, as I measured it as 59 Hz.  VA7OJ measured it as 
> 60 Hz.  I was using an HP lab supply, and Adam was using some other lab 
> supply.
>  I put a 500 uF capacitor across the Vcc pin and it had no effect.  I 
> don't think it has anything to do with the power supply since both of 
> us saw the same thing. ...

How much line noise is floating around the lab?  What does the spectrum 
analyzer see if you power off the DUT?




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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Daniel Watson]

Hi,

Attached is a plot of the output frequency difference from 10MHz during
warm-up. I believe this indicates the crystal is SC cut.

The VREF and EFC pins on the unit do work. The VREF is 4.1V.

I probed around the board of the unit I cracked open and found a low
frequency oscillation. It seems to vary from 40 to 90 Hz depending on where
the unit is in the warm-up cycle, and what I'm doing to it. With the can
cut off, the unit draws almost 50% more power than normal trying to
maintain temperature, so it's possible this is offset from what has been
reported in normal units.

In the photos, you may have noticed two sets of large, unpopulated pads on
the board near the output. I experimented with putting 10uF capacitors
across those. That killed the output, but the low frequency oscillation
could still be detected further back in the circuit.


Dan

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:

> Nice teardown. I was looking at that listing just yesterday. I am tempted,
> but don't know what I'd do with 40.
>
> The real question is, how do they perform?
>
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
> On Feb 27, 2016 9:48 AM, "Daniel Watson"  wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
> > eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one
> open.
> > I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
> > list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
> >
> >
> >
> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html
> >
> > Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
> > pretty straightforward inside though.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Dan W.
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Rob Sherwood .]

Both  Adam and I measure the same spurs.  Rob, NC0B

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Graham / KE9H
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 2:08 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO



Rob:
Are you sure you were running it with a clean power supply?
Any 60 Hz ripple on the supply could show up as AM/PM modulation.
You might want to try another 5V power supply before you give up on the 
oscillator.
--- Graham


On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Rob Sherwood. <r...@nc0b.com> wrote:

> Hi Dan,
>
> I purchased two of these, and VA7OJ one.  One of mine is defective, 
> and the seller is going to replace it.  What was disappointing was all 
> the spurious at 60 Hz intervals relatively close-in to the 10 MHz 
> carrier.  I suppose if all one wants is a reasonably accurate 10 MHz, 
> then they work OK.  My good one and Adam's unit were 1x10^7 low in 
> frequency once warmed up, and there are pins for frequency adjustment 
> and sync to another standard.  However if one wanted it for an 
> oscillator with good close-in phase noise, the spurs ruin that hope.
>
> Do you know if there is a chopper at 60 Hz that runs the proportional 
> oven that is the source of all the spurious?
>
> Rob
> NC0B
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
> Daniel Watson
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 9:48 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available 
> on eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to 
> the list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
>
>
> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-196001
> 7.html
>
> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It 
> seems pretty straightforward inside though.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dan W.
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Magnus Danielson]

A metal shield provides to aspects, firstly it will act as a windshield 
and keep some air confined and secondly, it will help equalize the 
temperature surrounding the oven such that it itself reduces temperature 
gradients, simply by being a better conductor of heat than the air. You 
still have black-body convection for sure.


For lesser oscillators, just putting a small plastic hut over the 
crystal have improved things greatly.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/27/2016 10:25 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

A small air gap is actually a better insulator than conventional foam. You 
don’t get
much of a convection cell going at those spacings. The part likely pulls a bit 
over a
watt at room.

If you put an insulator on the gizmo you increase it’s thermal gain. That will 
most likely
make the temperature performance significantly worse. See the good old papers 
on the
HP super ovens for all the details.

Bob


On Feb 27, 2016, at 12:44 PM, Tom Miller <tmiller11...@verizon.net> wrote:


- Original Message - From: "Daniel Watson" <watsondani...@gmail.com>
To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 11:48 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO



Hi,

I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:

http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html

Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
pretty straightforward inside though.


Best regards,

Dan W.


Looks like it would use a lot of power in a cold environment. Maybe a second 
oven would be nice. They seem to have marked the turnover temp on the xtal.

Regards
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Hal Murray]

r...@nc0b.com said:
> I cannot say exactly, as I measured it as 59 Hz.  VA7OJ measured it as 60
> Hz.  I was using an HP lab supply, and Adam was using some other lab supply.
>  I put a 500 uF capacitor across the Vcc pin and it had no effect.  I don't
> think it has anything to do with the power supply since both of us saw the
> same thing. ...

How much line noise is floating around the lab?  What does the spectrum 
analyzer see if you power off the DUT?




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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Ok, so that’s phase modulation and not frequency modulation. Simply put, it’s 
not a high level 
signal into the EFC. It’s also not anything inside the oscillator loop. 
Normally the best way to do
a broadband phase mod like that is to feed a signal into the input of the 
output buffer. I’d check it
with a couple of different loads and see if that chip sings when loaded this 
way vs that way.

Bob


> On Feb 27, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Rob Sherwood. <r...@nc0b.com> wrote:
> 
> Here is a look at the spectra.  6.3 kHz span, 7.6 kHz resolution bandwidth. 
> I have a 1.6 MB file with better resolution, but I assumed that would never 
> make it through the reflector.
> Rob
> NC0B
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 12:25 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> The controller shown on the PC board is not a chopper. The only reason you 
> would be getting 60 Hz is that somebody did an “aw shucks” and left a part 
> off the board. I suppose they could have left a part off (or put the wrong 
> part on) on whole batch of them. I’d make sure it still does it with a big 
> bypass (100 uF tantalum) on the supply right at the OCXO before I gave up on 
> the parts. 
> 
> Given that it’s China, those parts may not have any relation at all to the 
> CTS we think of over here (regardless of how they are labeled). Internal 
> workmanship and design suggests that they did come from CTS.
> 
> Bob 
> 
>> On Feb 27, 2016, at 12:35 PM, Rob Sherwood. <r...@nc0b.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Dan,
>> 
>> I purchased two of these, and VA7OJ one.  One of mine is defective, and the 
>> seller is going to replace it.  What was disappointing was all the spurious 
>> at 60 Hz intervals relatively close-in to the 10 MHz carrier.  I suppose if 
>> all one wants is a reasonably accurate 10 MHz, then they work OK.  My good 
>> one and Adam's unit were 1x10^7 low in frequency once warmed up, and there 
>> are pins for frequency adjustment and sync to another standard.  However if 
>> one wanted it for an oscillator with good close-in phase noise, the spurs 
>> ruin that hope.
>> 
>> Do you know if there is a chopper at 60 Hz that runs the proportional oven 
>> that is the source of all the spurious?
>> 
>> Rob
>> NC0B
>> 
>> -----Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
>> Daniel Watson
>> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 9:48 AM
>> To: time-nuts@febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on 
>> eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
>> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the 
>> list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
>> 
>> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-196001
>> 7.html
>> 
>> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems 
>> pretty straightforward inside though.
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Dan W.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[jimlux]

Line frequency is suspicious from either power supply or measurement system 
standpoint. 


Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S®6 active, an AT 4G LTE smartphone 
Original message From: "Rob Sherwood." <r...@nc0b.com> Date: 2/27/2016  
1:07 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' 
<time-nuts@febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO 
I cannot say exactly, as I measured it as 59 Hz.  VA7OJ measured it as 60 Hz.  
I was using an HP lab supply, and Adam was using some other lab supply.  I put 
a 500 uF capacitor across the Vcc pin and it had no effect.  I don't think it 
has anything to do with the power supply since both of us saw the same thing.  
If an attachment will go through this reflector, I can post a spectrum analyzer 
screen shot.  

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of jimlux
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 12:07 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO



On 2/27/16 9:35 AM, Rob Sherwood. wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> I purchased two of these, and VA7OJ one.  One of mine is defective, and the 
> seller is going to replace it.  What was disappointing was all the spurious 
> at 60 Hz intervals relatively close-in to the 10 MHz carrier.  I suppose if 
> all one wants is a reasonably accurate 10 MHz, then they work OK.  My good 
> one and Adam's unit were 1x10^7 low in frequency once warmed up, and there 
> are pins for frequency adjustment and sync to another standard.  However if 
> one wanted it for an oscillator with good close-in phase noise, the spurs 
> ruin that hope.
>
> Do you know if there is a chopper at 60 Hz that runs the proportional oven 
> that is the source of all the spurious?
>


Is it right at line frequency, or is it "close" to 60 Hz?

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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Bob Camp]

Hi

A small air gap is actually a better insulator than conventional foam. You 
don’t get
much of a convection cell going at those spacings. The part likely pulls a bit 
over a 
watt at room.

If you put an insulator on the gizmo you increase it’s thermal gain. That will 
most likely 
make the temperature performance significantly worse. See the good old papers 
on the 
HP super ovens for all the details.

Bob

> On Feb 27, 2016, at 12:44 PM, Tom Miller <tmiller11...@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Daniel Watson" <watsondani...@gmail.com>
> To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 11:48 AM
> Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
> 
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
>> eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
>> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
>> list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
>> 
>> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html
>> 
>> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
>> pretty straightforward inside though.
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Dan W.
> 
> Looks like it would use a lot of power in a cold environment. Maybe a second 
> oven would be nice. They seem to have marked the turnover temp on the xtal.
> 
> Regards 
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Rob Sherwood .]

I cannot say exactly, as I measured it as 59 Hz.  VA7OJ measured it as 60 Hz.  
I was using an HP lab supply, and Adam was using some other lab supply.  I put 
a 500 uF capacitor across the Vcc pin and it had no effect.  I don't think it 
has anything to do with the power supply since both of us saw the same thing.  
If an attachment will go through this reflector, I can post a spectrum analyzer 
screen shot.  

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of jimlux
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 12:07 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO



On 2/27/16 9:35 AM, Rob Sherwood. wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> I purchased two of these, and VA7OJ one.  One of mine is defective, and the 
> seller is going to replace it.  What was disappointing was all the spurious 
> at 60 Hz intervals relatively close-in to the 10 MHz carrier.  I suppose if 
> all one wants is a reasonably accurate 10 MHz, then they work OK.  My good 
> one and Adam's unit were 1x10^7 low in frequency once warmed up, and there 
> are pins for frequency adjustment and sync to another standard.  However if 
> one wanted it for an oscillator with good close-in phase noise, the spurs 
> ruin that hope.
>
> Do you know if there is a chopper at 60 Hz that runs the proportional oven 
> that is the source of all the spurious?
>


Is it right at line frequency, or is it "close" to 60 Hz?

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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Graham / KE9H]

Rob:
Are you sure you were running it with a clean power supply?
Any 60 Hz ripple on the supply could show up as AM/PM modulation.
You might want to try another 5V power supply before you give up on the
oscillator.
--- Graham


On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Rob Sherwood. <r...@nc0b.com> wrote:

> Hi Dan,
>
> I purchased two of these, and VA7OJ one.  One of mine is defective, and
> the seller is going to replace it.  What was disappointing was all the
> spurious at 60 Hz intervals relatively close-in to the 10 MHz carrier.  I
> suppose if all one wants is a reasonably accurate 10 MHz, then they work
> OK.  My good one and Adam's unit were 1x10^7 low in frequency once warmed
> up, and there are pins for frequency adjustment and sync to another
> standard.  However if one wanted it for an oscillator with good close-in
> phase noise, the spurs ruin that hope.
>
> Do you know if there is a chopper at 60 Hz that runs the proportional oven
> that is the source of all the spurious?
>
> Rob
> NC0B
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Daniel
> Watson
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 9:48 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
> eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
> list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
>
>
> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html
>
> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
> pretty straightforward inside though.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dan W.
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I believe you will find that the crystal in the picture is either an HC-45 or 
HC-43 sized 
package. 

Bob

> On Feb 27, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:
> 
> Dan:
> 
> Thanks for photo documenting the tear down of the CTS oven oscillators.
> I bought a few, and was interested in what was inside.
> I was surprised to see an HC-6 style crystal, but at least it was a
> cold-weld case.
> 
> I note that you did some design work for Adafruit.
> Curiosity question:
> Did they solicit you, or did you solicit them for the work?
> Or did they just see and copy your stuff on Oshpark?
> 
> --- Graham / KE9H
> 
> On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Daniel Watson 
> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
>> eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
>> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
>> list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
>> 
>> 
>> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html
>> 
>> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
>> pretty straightforward inside though.
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Dan W.
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The controller shown on the PC board is not a chopper. The only reason you 
would be getting 60 Hz is that 
somebody did an “aw shucks” and left a part off the board. I suppose they could 
have left a part off (or put the
wrong part on) on whole batch of them. I’d make sure it still does it with a 
big bypass (100 uF tantalum) on the 
supply right at the OCXO before I gave up on the parts. 

Given that it’s China, those parts may not have any relation at all to the CTS 
we think of over here (regardless 
of how they are labeled). Internal workmanship and design suggests that they 
did come from CTS.

Bob 

> On Feb 27, 2016, at 12:35 PM, Rob Sherwood. <r...@nc0b.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Dan,
> 
> I purchased two of these, and VA7OJ one.  One of mine is defective, and the 
> seller is going to replace it.  What was disappointing was all the spurious 
> at 60 Hz intervals relatively close-in to the 10 MHz carrier.  I suppose if 
> all one wants is a reasonably accurate 10 MHz, then they work OK.  My good 
> one and Adam's unit were 1x10^7 low in frequency once warmed up, and there 
> are pins for frequency adjustment and sync to another standard.  However if 
> one wanted it for an oscillator with good close-in phase noise, the spurs 
> ruin that hope.
> 
> Do you know if there is a chopper at 60 Hz that runs the proportional oven 
> that is the source of all the spurious?
> 
> Rob
> NC0B  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Watson
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 9:48 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on eBay 
> right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the 
> list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
> 
> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html
> 
> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems 
> pretty straightforward inside though.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Dan W.
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[jimlux]

On 2/27/16 9:35 AM, Rob Sherwood. wrote:

Hi Dan,

I purchased two of these, and VA7OJ one.  One of mine is defective, and the 
seller is going to replace it.  What was disappointing was all the spurious at 
60 Hz intervals relatively close-in to the 10 MHz carrier.  I suppose if all 
one wants is a reasonably accurate 10 MHz, then they work OK.  My good one and 
Adam's unit were 1x10^7 low in frequency once warmed up, and there are pins for 
frequency adjustment and sync to another standard.  However if one wanted it 
for an oscillator with good close-in phase noise, the spurs ruin that hope.

Do you know if there is a chopper at 60 Hz that runs the proportional oven that 
is the source of all the spurious?




Is it right at line frequency, or is it "close" to 60 Hz?

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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "Daniel Watson" <watsondani...@gmail.com>

To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 11:48 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO



Hi,

I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:

http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html

Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
pretty straightforward inside though.


Best regards,

Dan W.


Looks like it would use a lot of power in a cold environment. Maybe a second 
oven would be nice. They seem to have marked the turnover temp on the xtal.


Regards 


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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Rob Sherwood .]

Hi Dan,

I purchased two of these, and VA7OJ one.  One of mine is defective, and the 
seller is going to replace it.  What was disappointing was all the spurious at 
60 Hz intervals relatively close-in to the 10 MHz carrier.  I suppose if all 
one wants is a reasonably accurate 10 MHz, then they work OK.  My good one and 
Adam's unit were 1x10^7 low in frequency once warmed up, and there are pins for 
frequency adjustment and sync to another standard.  However if one wanted it 
for an oscillator with good close-in phase noise, the spurs ruin that hope.

Do you know if there is a chopper at 60 Hz that runs the proportional oven that 
is the source of all the spurious?

Rob
NC0B  

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Watson
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 9:48 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO



Hi,

I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on eBay 
right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the list. 
Here is the blog post if you are interested:

http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html

Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems pretty 
straightforward inside though.


Best regards,

Dan W.
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Joseph Gray]

Nice teardown. I was looking at that listing just yesterday. I am tempted,
but don't know what I'd do with 40.

The real question is, how do they perform?

Joe Gray
W5JG
On Feb 27, 2016 9:48 AM, "Daniel Watson"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
> eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
> list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
>
>
> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html
>
> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
> pretty straightforward inside though.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dan W.
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Graham / KE9H]

Dan:

Thanks for photo documenting the tear down of the CTS oven oscillators.
I bought a few, and was interested in what was inside.
I was surprised to see an HC-6 style crystal, but at least it was a
cold-weld case.

I note that you did some design work for Adafruit.
Curiosity question:
Did they solicit you, or did you solicit them for the work?
Or did they just see and copy your stuff on Oshpark?

--- Graham / KE9H

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Daniel Watson 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
> eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
> I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
> list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:
>
>
> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html
>
> Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
> pretty straightforward inside though.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dan W.
> ___
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[time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Daniel Watson]

Hi,

I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:

http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html

Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
pretty straightforward inside though.


Best regards,

Dan W.
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