Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
On 26/07/13 22:16, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Well if you get desperate to try it, I have CO2 and a chamber sitting in the garage. The biggest issue is that if we use too much CO2 for the chamber, the beer may go flat… Can't have that in the name of science, we need good beer after the experiments, and you know that. :) What would be good ovens for hobby usage / semi-pro BTW? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Hi On Jul 31, 2013, at 5:23 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 26/07/13 22:16, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Well if you get desperate to try it, I have CO2 and a chamber sitting in the garage. The biggest issue is that if we use too much CO2 for the chamber, the beer may go flat… Can't have that in the name of science, we need good beer after the experiments, and you know that. :) What would be good ovens for hobby usage / semi-pro BTW? It's just like at work - go with a refrigeration setup and get to know the service guy real well, or go with a CO2 chamber and become a regular at the gas store. The Delta chambers are pretty good for CO2. They show up at auction from time to time. Most of what's in them is pretty common stuff, so keeping them running isn't all that hard. You can convert them to a non-Delta controller without a lot of work if you have to. Bob Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Hi Ok, since it's moved *down* and it's about on temperature there are a couple of likely possibilities: 1) The crystal leaks and there's air in it 2) The trap coil(s) / capacitor(s) have changed value 3) The varicap is shorted / forward biased Normal factory troubleshoot (after checking the varicap) would be to swap the crystal and see if the problem follows the crystal or the oscillator. Yes, I know, that's not very helpful in this case - sorry about that. Bob On Jul 25, 2013, at 9:32 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Well lucks not so good do have the voltage closer but as Bob C said. That ain't the issue. Darn I hate when he is right. By the way the oscillator draws 26 ma approx as a reference. Reassembled everything and let the oven heat up it settles at 81C 15 min after start and within a respectable range of the temps listed in the service manual. Measured with a K thermocouple. Freq is at 9.55. or 45 Hz low Tuning the variable cap has 20 Hz range and the cap was pretty much center range. Have not played with the varicap but that should have a very small effect. I can easily adjust the temp setting R to raise the xtal temp. But that seems like a jerry rig. Could a xtal of this quality simply go bad over time? Somewhat at a loss here. I have a spare 10544 (Would not use the z3801 outer oven)and wonder if at least I could use that with the Z3801. Anyone know if the efc would work? Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Stefan Heinzmann stefan_heinzm...@gmx.dewrote: paul swed wrote: I can't believe you found the transistor. When I pulled it out last night, its actually a MPSA18!!! I had not had time to look it up but figured it was a ebay leftover hunt. :-) At that price I may order 20 of them. Like the gain. Toshiba used to make a transistor with even higher gain, the 2SC3112/2SC3113/2SC3295/**2SC4666 (same chip, different package). They discontinued it recently, however. Cheers Stefan __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Good comments. Indeed I will order up a new xtal from digi-key. They should be in stock any day now. I do agree with the comment on the cap in parallel. I had not thought about the series cap dropping and there is a .1uf as I recall. Need to look. The varicap seems to work very well so don't believe thats an issue. Will do some more hunting. By the way as a heads up the top and bottom cover of the xtal compartment are actually a pain to screw back together. Anyone have a sense of the Hz change per degree C? Thanks On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Ok, since it's moved *down* and it's about on temperature there are a couple of likely possibilities: 1) The crystal leaks and there's air in it 2) The trap coil(s) / capacitor(s) have changed value 3) The varicap is shorted / forward biased Normal factory troubleshoot (after checking the varicap) would be to swap the crystal and see if the problem follows the crystal or the oscillator. Yes, I know, that's not very helpful in this case - sorry about that. Bob On Jul 25, 2013, at 9:32 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Well lucks not so good do have the voltage closer but as Bob C said. That ain't the issue. Darn I hate when he is right. By the way the oscillator draws 26 ma approx as a reference. Reassembled everything and let the oven heat up it settles at 81C 15 min after start and within a respectable range of the temps listed in the service manual. Measured with a K thermocouple. Freq is at 9.55. or 45 Hz low Tuning the variable cap has 20 Hz range and the cap was pretty much center range. Have not played with the varicap but that should have a very small effect. I can easily adjust the temp setting R to raise the xtal temp. But that seems like a jerry rig. Could a xtal of this quality simply go bad over time? Somewhat at a loss here. I have a spare 10544 (Would not use the z3801 outer oven)and wonder if at least I could use that with the Z3801. Anyone know if the efc would work? Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Stefan Heinzmann stefan_heinzm...@gmx.dewrote: paul swed wrote: I can't believe you found the transistor. When I pulled it out last night, its actually a MPSA18!!! I had not had time to look it up but figured it was a ebay leftover hunt. :-) At that price I may order 20 of them. Like the gain. Toshiba used to make a transistor with even higher gain, the 2SC3112/2SC3113/2SC3295/**2SC4666 (same chip, different package). They discontinued it recently, however. Cheers Stefan __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Hi HP spec'd the crystals to be at a 1x10^-8 / C slope at the marked temperature on the crystal. The center of the curve should be in the vicinity of 90C. You are ~ -4.5 x 10^-6 low, so that would be 10 C away from that point going cold and a bit further going hot. Since the oven is at ~80C, it's not to hot… Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 10:09 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Good comments. Indeed I will order up a new xtal from digi-key. They should be in stock any day now. I do agree with the comment on the cap in parallel. I had not thought about the series cap dropping and there is a .1uf as I recall. Need to look. The varicap seems to work very well so don't believe thats an issue. Will do some more hunting. By the way as a heads up the top and bottom cover of the xtal compartment are actually a pain to screw back together. Anyone have a sense of the Hz change per degree C? Thanks On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Ok, since it's moved *down* and it's about on temperature there are a couple of likely possibilities: 1) The crystal leaks and there's air in it 2) The trap coil(s) / capacitor(s) have changed value 3) The varicap is shorted / forward biased Normal factory troubleshoot (after checking the varicap) would be to swap the crystal and see if the problem follows the crystal or the oscillator. Yes, I know, that's not very helpful in this case - sorry about that. Bob On Jul 25, 2013, at 9:32 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Well lucks not so good do have the voltage closer but as Bob C said. That ain't the issue. Darn I hate when he is right. By the way the oscillator draws 26 ma approx as a reference. Reassembled everything and let the oven heat up it settles at 81C 15 min after start and within a respectable range of the temps listed in the service manual. Measured with a K thermocouple. Freq is at 9.55. or 45 Hz low Tuning the variable cap has 20 Hz range and the cap was pretty much center range. Have not played with the varicap but that should have a very small effect. I can easily adjust the temp setting R to raise the xtal temp. But that seems like a jerry rig. Could a xtal of this quality simply go bad over time? Somewhat at a loss here. I have a spare 10544 (Would not use the z3801 outer oven)and wonder if at least I could use that with the Z3801. Anyone know if the efc would work? Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Stefan Heinzmann stefan_heinzm...@gmx.dewrote: paul swed wrote: I can't believe you found the transistor. When I pulled it out last night, its actually a MPSA18!!! I had not had time to look it up but figured it was a ebay leftover hunt. :-) At that price I may order 20 of them. Like the gain. Toshiba used to make a transistor with even higher gain, the 2SC3112/2SC3113/2SC3295/**2SC4666 (same chip, different package). They discontinued it recently, however. Cheers Stefan __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
sounds like time to add a R across the temp set R. That will lower the R and raise the temp. Its also easy to actually do. Thanks On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi HP spec'd the crystals to be at a 1x10^-8 / C slope at the marked temperature on the crystal. The center of the curve should be in the vicinity of 90C. You are ~ -4.5 x 10^-6 low, so that would be 10 C away from that point going cold and a bit further going hot. Since the oven is at ~80C, it's not to hot… Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 10:09 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Good comments. Indeed I will order up a new xtal from digi-key. They should be in stock any day now. I do agree with the comment on the cap in parallel. I had not thought about the series cap dropping and there is a .1uf as I recall. Need to look. The varicap seems to work very well so don't believe thats an issue. Will do some more hunting. By the way as a heads up the top and bottom cover of the xtal compartment are actually a pain to screw back together. Anyone have a sense of the Hz change per degree C? Thanks On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Ok, since it's moved *down* and it's about on temperature there are a couple of likely possibilities: 1) The crystal leaks and there's air in it 2) The trap coil(s) / capacitor(s) have changed value 3) The varicap is shorted / forward biased Normal factory troubleshoot (after checking the varicap) would be to swap the crystal and see if the problem follows the crystal or the oscillator. Yes, I know, that's not very helpful in this case - sorry about that. Bob On Jul 25, 2013, at 9:32 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Well lucks not so good do have the voltage closer but as Bob C said. That ain't the issue. Darn I hate when he is right. By the way the oscillator draws 26 ma approx as a reference. Reassembled everything and let the oven heat up it settles at 81C 15 min after start and within a respectable range of the temps listed in the service manual. Measured with a K thermocouple. Freq is at 9.55. or 45 Hz low Tuning the variable cap has 20 Hz range and the cap was pretty much center range. Have not played with the varicap but that should have a very small effect. I can easily adjust the temp setting R to raise the xtal temp. But that seems like a jerry rig. Could a xtal of this quality simply go bad over time? Somewhat at a loss here. I have a spare 10544 (Would not use the z3801 outer oven)and wonder if at least I could use that with the Z3801. Anyone know if the efc would work? Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Stefan Heinzmann stefan_heinzm...@gmx.dewrote: paul swed wrote: I can't believe you found the transistor. When I pulled it out last night, its actually a MPSA18!!! I had not had time to look it up but figured it was a ebay leftover hunt. :-) At that price I may order 20 of them. Like the gain. Toshiba used to make a transistor with even higher gain, the 2SC3112/2SC3113/2SC3295/**2SC4666 (same chip, different package). They discontinued it recently, however. Cheers Stefan __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Hi Paul, Did you see this page that talks about tweaking the 10811 oven controller? http://www.realhamradio.com/z3801a-turning-point.htm Ed On 7/26/2013 10:47 AM, paul swed wrote: sounds like time to add a R across the temp set R. That will lower the R and raise the temp. Its also easy to actually do. Thanks On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi HP spec'd the crystals to be at a 1x10^-8 / C slope at the marked temperature on the crystal. The center of the curve should be in the vicinity of 90C. You are ~ -4.5 x 10^-6 low, so that would be 10 C away from that point going cold and a bit further going hot. Since the oven is at ~80C, it's not to hot… Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Yes thanks ran across it. Skimmed it. Did not think I would be doing it. :-) On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: Hi Paul, Did you see this page that talks about tweaking the 10811 oven controller? http://www.realhamradio.com/**z3801a-turning-point.htmhttp://www.realhamradio.com/z3801a-turning-point.htm Ed On 7/26/2013 10:47 AM, paul swed wrote: sounds like time to add a R across the temp set R. That will lower the R and raise the temp. Its also easy to actually do. Thanks On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi HP spec'd the crystals to be at a 1x10^-8 / C slope at the marked temperature on the crystal. The center of the curve should be in the vicinity of 90C. You are ~ -4.5 x 10^-6 low, so that would be 10 C away from that point going cold and a bit further going hot. Since the oven is at ~80C, it's not to hot… Bob __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Ed Palmer wrote: Hi Paul, Did you see this page that talks about tweaking the 10811 oven controller? http://www.realhamradio.com/z3801a-turning-point.htm Ed Although this article anecdotally claims success, it overlooks a number of important issues. First of all, a large proportion of 10811 crystals DO NOT HAVE A TURNOVER. They merely have a very low TC around 82 degrees. It is ALWAYS 82 degrees for these crystals. The crystals that do, technically, have a turnover, still have very low TC even if the oven is slightly off the turnover. Secondly, the tempco of the electronics, specifically the selected 2N5179 oscillator transistor, is a significant player. The thermal gain, if properly adjusted, is around 1000 at the crystal, but is much less at the oscillator transistor. It may very well be the dominant factor in overall oscillator tempco. Possibly, if you have a crystal with a turnover, you should deliberately operate off the turnover at a point where the crystal drift cancels the drift of the electronics. If you want to tweak a 10811, you should also tweak the thermal gain by custom adjustment of the heat balancing resistors for the heater transistors. This has to be done by converting the oscillator to mode B and then converting it back to mode C afterwards. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Rick Thanks. But I am far simpler than that. I am trying to get the 10811 back to 10 Mhz its -45Hz. In the long thread above I go into the troubleshooting details so far. Because a crystal simply can't go this bad. :-) I hope not at least. Regards Paul. On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Rick Karlquist rich...@karlquist.comwrote: Ed Palmer wrote: Hi Paul, Did you see this page that talks about tweaking the 10811 oven controller? http://www.realhamradio.com/z3801a-turning-point.htm Ed Although this article anecdotally claims success, it overlooks a number of important issues. First of all, a large proportion of 10811 crystals DO NOT HAVE A TURNOVER. They merely have a very low TC around 82 degrees. It is ALWAYS 82 degrees for these crystals. The crystals that do, technically, have a turnover, still have very low TC even if the oven is slightly off the turnover. Secondly, the tempco of the electronics, specifically the selected 2N5179 oscillator transistor, is a significant player. The thermal gain, if properly adjusted, is around 1000 at the crystal, but is much less at the oscillator transistor. It may very well be the dominant factor in overall oscillator tempco. Possibly, if you have a crystal with a turnover, you should deliberately operate off the turnover at a point where the crystal drift cancels the drift of the electronics. If you want to tweak a 10811, you should also tweak the thermal gain by custom adjustment of the heat balancing resistors for the heater transistors. This has to be done by converting the oscillator to mode B and then converting it back to mode C afterwards. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Hi Doing any real adjustment on these OCXO's pretty much requires you have a temperature chamber and a pretty good standard. A GPSDO will do for the standard, the chamber is a bit harder to come by. Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 1:38 PM, Rick Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Ed Palmer wrote: Hi Paul, Did you see this page that talks about tweaking the 10811 oven controller? http://www.realhamradio.com/z3801a-turning-point.htm Ed Although this article anecdotally claims success, it overlooks a number of important issues. First of all, a large proportion of 10811 crystals DO NOT HAVE A TURNOVER. They merely have a very low TC around 82 degrees. It is ALWAYS 82 degrees for these crystals. The crystals that do, technically, have a turnover, still have very low TC even if the oven is slightly off the turnover. Secondly, the tempco of the electronics, specifically the selected 2N5179 oscillator transistor, is a significant player. The thermal gain, if properly adjusted, is around 1000 at the crystal, but is much less at the oscillator transistor. It may very well be the dominant factor in overall oscillator tempco. Possibly, if you have a crystal with a turnover, you should deliberately operate off the turnover at a point where the crystal drift cancels the drift of the electronics. If you want to tweak a 10811, you should also tweak the thermal gain by custom adjustment of the heat balancing resistors for the heater transistors. This has to be done by converting the oscillator to mode B and then converting it back to mode C afterwards. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
So laying a sock over the insulated oven can doesn't count? Its a thick sock. Still not at the stage of needing a chamber I am 45 Hz off. On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Doing any real adjustment on these OCXO's pretty much requires you have a temperature chamber and a pretty good standard. A GPSDO will do for the standard, the chamber is a bit harder to come by. Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 1:38 PM, Rick Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Ed Palmer wrote: Hi Paul, Did you see this page that talks about tweaking the 10811 oven controller? http://www.realhamradio.com/z3801a-turning-point.htm Ed Although this article anecdotally claims success, it overlooks a number of important issues. First of all, a large proportion of 10811 crystals DO NOT HAVE A TURNOVER. They merely have a very low TC around 82 degrees. It is ALWAYS 82 degrees for these crystals. The crystals that do, technically, have a turnover, still have very low TC even if the oven is slightly off the turnover. Secondly, the tempco of the electronics, specifically the selected 2N5179 oscillator transistor, is a significant player. The thermal gain, if properly adjusted, is around 1000 at the crystal, but is much less at the oscillator transistor. It may very well be the dominant factor in overall oscillator tempco. Possibly, if you have a crystal with a turnover, you should deliberately operate off the turnover at a point where the crystal drift cancels the drift of the electronics. If you want to tweak a 10811, you should also tweak the thermal gain by custom adjustment of the heat balancing resistors for the heater transistors. This has to be done by converting the oscillator to mode B and then converting it back to mode C afterwards. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Hi Tossing a nice fluffy towel over it works pretty well. Just the thing if you are doing a bench turn hunt on an AT based OCXO. It's also a quick way to answer the age old question is it broke or is it just all the people walking by while I'm trying to test it. You need something that will let you go say 25C 5C 25C 45C 25C. Each time you make a change and re-test, you want to run the same temperatures. You need enough air circulation (and proper ducting) so that the device OCXO stabilizes quickly. 300 to 600 CFM is the range most chambers run in. Dead air = hard to know what temperature you are at / large delta T within the chamber. A dwell of maybe an hour at each one is about right. A Tenny Jr is a pretty good chamber for home use (no CO2). Keeping the refrigeration repaired can be a chore though… Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 3:33 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: So laying a sock over the insulated oven can doesn't count? Its a thick sock. Still not at the stage of needing a chamber I am 45 Hz off. On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Doing any real adjustment on these OCXO's pretty much requires you have a temperature chamber and a pretty good standard. A GPSDO will do for the standard, the chamber is a bit harder to come by. Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 1:38 PM, Rick Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Ed Palmer wrote: Hi Paul, Did you see this page that talks about tweaking the 10811 oven controller? http://www.realhamradio.com/z3801a-turning-point.htm Ed Although this article anecdotally claims success, it overlooks a number of important issues. First of all, a large proportion of 10811 crystals DO NOT HAVE A TURNOVER. They merely have a very low TC around 82 degrees. It is ALWAYS 82 degrees for these crystals. The crystals that do, technically, have a turnover, still have very low TC even if the oven is slightly off the turnover. Secondly, the tempco of the electronics, specifically the selected 2N5179 oscillator transistor, is a significant player. The thermal gain, if properly adjusted, is around 1000 at the crystal, but is much less at the oscillator transistor. It may very well be the dominant factor in overall oscillator tempco. Possibly, if you have a crystal with a turnover, you should deliberately operate off the turnover at a point where the crystal drift cancels the drift of the electronics. If you want to tweak a 10811, you should also tweak the thermal gain by custom adjustment of the heat balancing resistors for the heater transistors. This has to be done by converting the oscillator to mode B and then converting it back to mode C afterwards. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Bob I think the power bill exceeds the cost of a 10811. The chamber and CO2. Going to pass.Though I am sure I can run down to work and throw a unit in the various walk in units we have. Suspect they will not appreciate me adjusting the temps though. Back to work as they say. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Tossing a nice fluffy towel over it works pretty well. Just the thing if you are doing a bench turn hunt on an AT based OCXO. It's also a quick way to answer the age old question is it broke or is it just all the people walking by while I'm trying to test it. You need something that will let you go say 25C 5C 25C 45C 25C. Each time you make a change and re-test, you want to run the same temperatures. You need enough air circulation (and proper ducting) so that the device OCXO stabilizes quickly. 300 to 600 CFM is the range most chambers run in. Dead air = hard to know what temperature you are at / large delta T within the chamber. A dwell of maybe an hour at each one is about right. A Tenny Jr is a pretty good chamber for home use (no CO2). Keeping the refrigeration repaired can be a chore though… Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 3:33 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: So laying a sock over the insulated oven can doesn't count? Its a thick sock. Still not at the stage of needing a chamber I am 45 Hz off. On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Doing any real adjustment on these OCXO's pretty much requires you have a temperature chamber and a pretty good standard. A GPSDO will do for the standard, the chamber is a bit harder to come by. Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 1:38 PM, Rick Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Ed Palmer wrote: Hi Paul, Did you see this page that talks about tweaking the 10811 oven controller? http://www.realhamradio.com/z3801a-turning-point.htm Ed Although this article anecdotally claims success, it overlooks a number of important issues. First of all, a large proportion of 10811 crystals DO NOT HAVE A TURNOVER. They merely have a very low TC around 82 degrees. It is ALWAYS 82 degrees for these crystals. The crystals that do, technically, have a turnover, still have very low TC even if the oven is slightly off the turnover. Secondly, the tempco of the electronics, specifically the selected 2N5179 oscillator transistor, is a significant player. The thermal gain, if properly adjusted, is around 1000 at the crystal, but is much less at the oscillator transistor. It may very well be the dominant factor in overall oscillator tempco. Possibly, if you have a crystal with a turnover, you should deliberately operate off the turnover at a point where the crystal drift cancels the drift of the electronics. If you want to tweak a 10811, you should also tweak the thermal gain by custom adjustment of the heat balancing resistors for the heater transistors. This has to be done by converting the oscillator to mode B and then converting it back to mode C afterwards. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Hi Well if you get desperate to try it, I have CO2 and a chamber sitting in the garage. The biggest issue is that if we use too much CO2 for the chamber, the beer may go flat… Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 4:09 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Bob I think the power bill exceeds the cost of a 10811. The chamber and CO2. Going to pass.Though I am sure I can run down to work and throw a unit in the various walk in units we have. Suspect they will not appreciate me adjusting the temps though. Back to work as they say. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Tossing a nice fluffy towel over it works pretty well. Just the thing if you are doing a bench turn hunt on an AT based OCXO. It's also a quick way to answer the age old question is it broke or is it just all the people walking by while I'm trying to test it. You need something that will let you go say 25C 5C 25C 45C 25C. Each time you make a change and re-test, you want to run the same temperatures. You need enough air circulation (and proper ducting) so that the device OCXO stabilizes quickly. 300 to 600 CFM is the range most chambers run in. Dead air = hard to know what temperature you are at / large delta T within the chamber. A dwell of maybe an hour at each one is about right. A Tenny Jr is a pretty good chamber for home use (no CO2). Keeping the refrigeration repaired can be a chore though… Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 3:33 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: So laying a sock over the insulated oven can doesn't count? Its a thick sock. Still not at the stage of needing a chamber I am 45 Hz off. On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Doing any real adjustment on these OCXO's pretty much requires you have a temperature chamber and a pretty good standard. A GPSDO will do for the standard, the chamber is a bit harder to come by. Bob On Jul 26, 2013, at 1:38 PM, Rick Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Ed Palmer wrote: Hi Paul, Did you see this page that talks about tweaking the 10811 oven controller? http://www.realhamradio.com/z3801a-turning-point.htm Ed Although this article anecdotally claims success, it overlooks a number of important issues. First of all, a large proportion of 10811 crystals DO NOT HAVE A TURNOVER. They merely have a very low TC around 82 degrees. It is ALWAYS 82 degrees for these crystals. The crystals that do, technically, have a turnover, still have very low TC even if the oven is slightly off the turnover. Secondly, the tempco of the electronics, specifically the selected 2N5179 oscillator transistor, is a significant player. The thermal gain, if properly adjusted, is around 1000 at the crystal, but is much less at the oscillator transistor. It may very well be the dominant factor in overall oscillator tempco. Possibly, if you have a crystal with a turnover, you should deliberately operate off the turnover at a point where the crystal drift cancels the drift of the electronics. If you want to tweak a 10811, you should also tweak the thermal gain by custom adjustment of the heat balancing resistors for the heater transistors. This has to be done by converting the oscillator to mode B and then converting it back to mode C afterwards. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
FYI, The MPSA18RLRAG is a stock item at Digi-Key, min beta 500 at 1 10mA, 45V 200mA rated, TO-92. $0.33 each. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MPSA18RLRAG/MPSA18RLRAGOSCT-ND/1139919 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update Well learned quite a bit Q4 does have an issue. Further there is a reason it has such high Beta. Its must deliver 30 ma to the oscillator and buffer. I was quite surprised by this current level. I was guessing the oscillator was a few mils and the buffer maybe 8. The 2n3904 simply does not cut it. Need to do some digging in the ole transistors. Regards Paul. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Robert I can't believe you found the transistor. When I pulled it out last night, its actually a MPSA18!!! I had not had time to look it up but figured it was a ebay leftover hunt. :-) At that price I may order 20 of them. Like the gain. Thanks. On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Robert LaJeunesse rlajeune...@sbcglobal.net wrote: FYI, The MPSA18RLRAG is a stock item at Digi-Key, min beta 500 at 1 10mA, 45V 200mA rated, TO-92. $0.33 each. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MPSA18RLRAG/MPSA18RLRAGOSCT-ND/1139919 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update Well learned quite a bit Q4 does have an issue. Further there is a reason it has such high Beta. Its must deliver 30 ma to the oscillator and buffer. I was quite surprised by this current level. I was guessing the oscillator was a few mils and the buffer maybe 8. The 2n3904 simply does not cut it. Need to do some digging in the ole transistors. Regards Paul. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Very interesting list. I wonder if that is a way to identify a cross from a manufacturer's P/N (Tek, HP, Fluke, etc.) to a 'real' part? Either that or all you need is a collection of NTE parts and never anything else :). I have used NTE parts to cross to 'unobtanium' in the past and, so far, it's worked. However, my first choice is a 'new' item followed by 'NOS' followed by 'used' then 'anything that will work'. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Orin Eman Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 11:01 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update I find it hard to believe that NTE spec the 123AP to replace a transistor with min beta of 500... This is quite entertaining: http://www.vetco.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1856 Look at the parts it's supposed to replace. (Nothing against Vetco - they are a great source of NTE components and are local to me. They are just quoting what NTE claim.) Orin. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:42 PM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote: The 2N6429 crosses to an NTE123AP, in stock at Allied for $0.80. http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70214870mkwid =szEc5 jMBIpcrid=23468365337pkw=nte123appmt=epdv=cgclid=CKyzu9_cybgCFWYV 7AodJA sAWQ Good luck. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:29 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update Well learned quite a bit Q4 does have an issue. Further there is a reason it has such high Beta. Its must deliver 30 ma to the oscillator and buffer. I was quite surprised by this current level. I was guessing the oscillator was a few mils and the buffer maybe 8. The 2n3904 simply does not cut it. Need to do some digging in the ole transistors. Regards Paul. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:06 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I can hope I will embed a k thermocouple also. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:45 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The regulator should be fixed, and the OCXO will work better with it repaired. That said, shifting the regulated voltage from 5.7 to 5.27 volts should not shift that oscillator 45 Hz. Bob On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:00 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello to the group. Numbers of threads running on the HP 10811. Mine is 45 Hz low. The oven is most likely ok. I did get the can open per the various other threads and the web pix. Started testing the circuits and have found that the regulator for the oscillator isn't. Its supposed to produce 5.7V and is at 5.27V thats pretty significant. The transistor looks like a shorted collector base junction. Though I do not have it out of circuit yet. Its Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. Thats pretty amazing. I am looking through my xsistors to find something close. May just through a 2n3904 in for a quick test. Its beta is nothing like the 6429. But it would help to prove/disprove the point that the low V may be offsetting the oscillator I hope. Will also embed a K thermal couple to verify the oven really is in the 80-84C region. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
NTE is actually a conglomeration of old parts cross reference stuff. Mostly from the TV and radio days. They consolidated the consumer lines of Motorola HEP, RCAs SK, and Sylvanias ECG lines to fill out the replacement device business. Thats when things could be repaired. So thats the reason the 123a can cover a wide range. Its sort of a cross of a cross sort of fits thing. Don't get me at all wrong with these comments. Glad they are around. But it is the reality. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:50 AM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote: Very interesting list. I wonder if that is a way to identify a cross from a manufacturer's P/N (Tek, HP, Fluke, etc.) to a 'real' part? Either that or all you need is a collection of NTE parts and never anything else :). I have used NTE parts to cross to 'unobtanium' in the past and, so far, it's worked. However, my first choice is a 'new' item followed by 'NOS' followed by 'used' then 'anything that will work'. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Orin Eman Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 11:01 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update I find it hard to believe that NTE spec the 123AP to replace a transistor with min beta of 500... This is quite entertaining: http://www.vetco.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1856 Look at the parts it's supposed to replace. (Nothing against Vetco - they are a great source of NTE components and are local to me. They are just quoting what NTE claim.) Orin. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:42 PM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote: The 2N6429 crosses to an NTE123AP, in stock at Allied for $0.80. http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70214870mkwid =szEc5 jMBIpcrid=23468365337pkw=nte123appmt=epdv=cgclid=CKyzu9_cybgCFWYV 7AodJA sAWQ Good luck. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:29 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update Well learned quite a bit Q4 does have an issue. Further there is a reason it has such high Beta. Its must deliver 30 ma to the oscillator and buffer. I was quite surprised by this current level. I was guessing the oscillator was a few mils and the buffer maybe 8. The 2n3904 simply does not cut it. Need to do some digging in the ole transistors. Regards Paul. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:06 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I can hope I will embed a k thermocouple also. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:45 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The regulator should be fixed, and the OCXO will work better with it repaired. That said, shifting the regulated voltage from 5.7 to 5.27 volts should not shift that oscillator 45 Hz. Bob On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:00 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello to the group. Numbers of threads running on the HP 10811. Mine is 45 Hz low. The oven is most likely ok. I did get the can open per the various other threads and the web pix. Started testing the circuits and have found that the regulator for the oscillator isn't. Its supposed to produce 5.7V and is at 5.27V thats pretty significant. The transistor looks like a shorted collector base junction. Though I do not have it out of circuit yet. Its Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. Thats pretty amazing. I am looking through my xsistors to find something close. May just through a 2n3904 in for a quick test. Its beta is nothing like the 6429. But it would help to prove/disprove the point that the low V may be offsetting the oscillator I hope. Will also embed a K thermal couple to verify the oven really is in the 80-84C region. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
paul swed wrote: I can't believe you found the transistor. When I pulled it out last night, its actually a MPSA18!!! I had not had time to look it up but figured it was a ebay leftover hunt. :-) At that price I may order 20 of them. Like the gain. Toshiba used to make a transistor with even higher gain, the 2SC3112/2SC3113/2SC3295/2SC4666 (same chip, different package). They discontinued it recently, however. Cheers Stefan ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
I totally agree that a 123 will not replace it. A luck would have it I have 12 X 2n3390 xsistors Beta 400-1000. These are the older TO-98s and I will try one tonight. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 12:00 AM, Orin Eman orin.e...@gmail.com wrote: I find it hard to believe that NTE spec the 123AP to replace a transistor with min beta of 500... This is quite entertaining: http://www.vetco.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1856 Look at the parts it's supposed to replace. (Nothing against Vetco - they are a great source of NTE components and are local to me. They are just quoting what NTE claim.) Orin. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:42 PM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote: The 2N6429 crosses to an NTE123AP, in stock at Allied for $0.80. http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70214870mkwid=szEc5 jMBIpcrid=23468365337pkw=nte123appmt=epdv=cgclid=CKyzu9_cybgCFWYV7AodJA sAWQ Good luck. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:29 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update Well learned quite a bit Q4 does have an issue. Further there is a reason it has such high Beta. Its must deliver 30 ma to the oscillator and buffer. I was quite surprised by this current level. I was guessing the oscillator was a few mils and the buffer maybe 8. The 2n3904 simply does not cut it. Need to do some digging in the ole transistors. Regards Paul. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:06 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I can hope I will embed a k thermocouple also. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:45 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The regulator should be fixed, and the OCXO will work better with it repaired. That said, shifting the regulated voltage from 5.7 to 5.27 volts should not shift that oscillator 45 Hz. Bob On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:00 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello to the group. Numbers of threads running on the HP 10811. Mine is 45 Hz low. The oven is most likely ok. I did get the can open per the various other threads and the web pix. Started testing the circuits and have found that the regulator for the oscillator isn't. Its supposed to produce 5.7V and is at 5.27V thats pretty significant. The transistor looks like a shorted collector base junction. Though I do not have it out of circuit yet. Its Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. Thats pretty amazing. I am looking through my xsistors to find something close. May just through a 2n3904 in for a quick test. Its beta is nothing like the 6429. But it would help to prove/disprove the point that the low V may be offsetting the oscillator I hope. Will also embed a K thermal couple to verify the oven really is in the 80-84C region. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Well lucks not so good do have the voltage closer but as Bob C said. That ain't the issue. Darn I hate when he is right. By the way the oscillator draws 26 ma approx as a reference. Reassembled everything and let the oven heat up it settles at 81C 15 min after start and within a respectable range of the temps listed in the service manual. Measured with a K thermocouple. Freq is at 9.55. or 45 Hz low Tuning the variable cap has 20 Hz range and the cap was pretty much center range. Have not played with the varicap but that should have a very small effect. I can easily adjust the temp setting R to raise the xtal temp. But that seems like a jerry rig. Could a xtal of this quality simply go bad over time? Somewhat at a loss here. I have a spare 10544 (Would not use the z3801 outer oven)and wonder if at least I could use that with the Z3801. Anyone know if the efc would work? Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Stefan Heinzmann stefan_heinzm...@gmx.dewrote: paul swed wrote: I can't believe you found the transistor. When I pulled it out last night, its actually a MPSA18!!! I had not had time to look it up but figured it was a ebay leftover hunt. :-) At that price I may order 20 of them. Like the gain. Toshiba used to make a transistor with even higher gain, the 2SC3112/2SC3113/2SC3295/**2SC4666 (same chip, different package). They discontinued it recently, however. Cheers Stefan __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
On 7/25/2013 8:32 PM, paul swed wrote: Well lucks not so good do have the voltage closer but as Bob C said. That ain't the issue. this may is a dumb question: Lower than expected frequency means some extra capacitance in parallel or not enough in series with the crystal... ? Would that put suspicion on C4 (0.1uF between crystal and Q1)? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Hello to the group. Numbers of threads running on the HP 10811. Mine is 45 Hz low. The oven is most likely ok. I did get the can open per the various other threads and the web pix. Started testing the circuits and have found that the regulator for the oscillator isn't. Its supposed to produce 5.7V and is at 5.27V thats pretty significant. The transistor looks like a shorted collector base junction. Though I do not have it out of circuit yet. Its Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. Thats pretty amazing. I am looking through my xsistors to find something close. May just through a 2n3904 in for a quick test. Its beta is nothing like the 6429. But it would help to prove/disprove the point that the low V may be offsetting the oscillator I hope. Will also embed a K thermal couple to verify the oven really is in the 80-84C region. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Thanks Charles. I suspect all said the regulated output delivers 1 ma. It doesn't feed much. I have the 2n3904s so cheap test to see if that picks up the 45 Hz On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Paul wrote: Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. A BC549C or BC550C should work fine, and they are readily available and cheap. A 2N3904 should be fine, too, but the current regulator diode on the zener is only a 1mA part, so the 2N3904's increased base current will leave a wee bit less for the already-starved zener. Shouldn't be a problem, though. Noise of the transistor is not a factor (within reason) -- the zener will dominate that. Best regards, Charles __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP 10811 update
2N6429... $1 each: http://www.talonix.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=3522 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Hi The regulator should be fixed, and the OCXO will work better with it repaired. That said, shifting the regulated voltage from 5.7 to 5.27 volts should not shift that oscillator 45 Hz. Bob On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:00 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello to the group. Numbers of threads running on the HP 10811. Mine is 45 Hz low. The oven is most likely ok. I did get the can open per the various other threads and the web pix. Started testing the circuits and have found that the regulator for the oscillator isn't. Its supposed to produce 5.7V and is at 5.27V thats pretty significant. The transistor looks like a shorted collector base junction. Though I do not have it out of circuit yet. Its Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. Thats pretty amazing. I am looking through my xsistors to find something close. May just through a 2n3904 in for a quick test. Its beta is nothing like the 6429. But it would help to prove/disprove the point that the low V may be offsetting the oscillator I hope. Will also embed a K thermal couple to verify the oven really is in the 80-84C region. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
I can hope I will embed a k thermocouple also. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:45 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The regulator should be fixed, and the OCXO will work better with it repaired. That said, shifting the regulated voltage from 5.7 to 5.27 volts should not shift that oscillator 45 Hz. Bob On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:00 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello to the group. Numbers of threads running on the HP 10811. Mine is 45 Hz low. The oven is most likely ok. I did get the can open per the various other threads and the web pix. Started testing the circuits and have found that the regulator for the oscillator isn't. Its supposed to produce 5.7V and is at 5.27V thats pretty significant. The transistor looks like a shorted collector base junction. Though I do not have it out of circuit yet. Its Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. Thats pretty amazing. I am looking through my xsistors to find something close. May just through a 2n3904 in for a quick test. Its beta is nothing like the 6429. But it would help to prove/disprove the point that the low V may be offsetting the oscillator I hope. Will also embed a K thermal couple to verify the oven really is in the 80-84C region. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Well learned quite a bit Q4 does have an issue. Further there is a reason it has such high Beta. Its must deliver 30 ma to the oscillator and buffer. I was quite surprised by this current level. I was guessing the oscillator was a few mils and the buffer maybe 8. The 2n3904 simply does not cut it. Need to do some digging in the ole transistors. Regards Paul. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:06 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I can hope I will embed a k thermocouple also. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:45 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The regulator should be fixed, and the OCXO will work better with it repaired. That said, shifting the regulated voltage from 5.7 to 5.27 volts should not shift that oscillator 45 Hz. Bob On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:00 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello to the group. Numbers of threads running on the HP 10811. Mine is 45 Hz low. The oven is most likely ok. I did get the can open per the various other threads and the web pix. Started testing the circuits and have found that the regulator for the oscillator isn't. Its supposed to produce 5.7V and is at 5.27V thats pretty significant. The transistor looks like a shorted collector base junction. Though I do not have it out of circuit yet. Its Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. Thats pretty amazing. I am looking through my xsistors to find something close. May just through a 2n3904 in for a quick test. Its beta is nothing like the 6429. But it would help to prove/disprove the point that the low V may be offsetting the oscillator I hope. Will also embed a K thermal couple to verify the oven really is in the 80-84C region. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
Sorry mate, this isn't much help, I haven't heave of any of these, must be before my time?! Mat Struct Pc Ucb Uce Ueb Ic Tj Ft Cc, pF Hfe Caps 1. 2N6429http://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=5816 Si NPN 0.625 55 45 6 0.2 175 100 3 400 TO92 2. NTE2341http://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=44370 Si NPN 1 100 80 7 1 2000 TO92 3. NTE46http://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=44457 Si NPN 0.625 100 100 12 0.5 1 TO92 4. NTE48http://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=44458 Si NPN 1 60 50 12 1 25000 TO92 5. SM2285http://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=45948 Si NPN 1 0 100 0 0.2 200 150 600 TO92 6. STL73Dhttp://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=50901 Si NPN 0 700 400 0 1.5 0 TO92 7. STX112http://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=50927 Si NPN 0 100 100 0 2 1000 TO92 8. STX616http://alltransistors.com/transistor.php?transistor=50930 Si NPN 0 980 500 0 1.5 0 TO92 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Thursday, 25 July 2013 11:29 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update Well learned quite a bit Q4 does have an issue. Further there is a reason it has such high Beta. Its must deliver 30 ma to the oscillator and buffer. I was quite surprised by this current level. I was guessing the oscillator was a few mils and the buffer maybe 8. The 2n3904 simply does not cut it. Need to do some digging in the ole transistors. Regards Paul. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:06 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.commailto:paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I can hope I will embed a k thermocouple also. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:45 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.usmailto:li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The regulator should be fixed, and the OCXO will work better with it repaired. That said, shifting the regulated voltage from 5.7 to 5.27 volts should not shift that oscillator 45 Hz. Bob On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:00 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.commailto:paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello to the group. Numbers of threads running on the HP 10811. Mine is 45 Hz low. The oven is most likely ok. I did get the can open per the various other threads and the web pix. Started testing the circuits and have found that the regulator for the oscillator isn't. Its supposed to produce 5.7V and is at 5.27V thats pretty significant. The transistor looks like a shorted collector base junction. Though I do not have it out of circuit yet. Its Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. Thats pretty amazing. I am looking through my xsistors to find something close. May just through a 2n3904 in for a quick test. Its beta is nothing like the 6429. But it would help to prove/disprove the point that the low V may be offsetting the oscillator I hope. Will also embed a K thermal couple to verify the oven really is in the 80-84C region. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.commailto:time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.commailto:time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.commailto:time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
The 2N6429 crosses to an NTE123AP, in stock at Allied for $0.80. http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70214870mkwid=szEc5 jMBIpcrid=23468365337pkw=nte123appmt=epdv=cgclid=CKyzu9_cybgCFWYV7AodJA sAWQ Good luck. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:29 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update Well learned quite a bit Q4 does have an issue. Further there is a reason it has such high Beta. Its must deliver 30 ma to the oscillator and buffer. I was quite surprised by this current level. I was guessing the oscillator was a few mils and the buffer maybe 8. The 2n3904 simply does not cut it. Need to do some digging in the ole transistors. Regards Paul. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:06 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I can hope I will embed a k thermocouple also. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:45 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The regulator should be fixed, and the OCXO will work better with it repaired. That said, shifting the regulated voltage from 5.7 to 5.27 volts should not shift that oscillator 45 Hz. Bob On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:00 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello to the group. Numbers of threads running on the HP 10811. Mine is 45 Hz low. The oven is most likely ok. I did get the can open per the various other threads and the web pix. Started testing the circuits and have found that the regulator for the oscillator isn't. Its supposed to produce 5.7V and is at 5.27V thats pretty significant. The transistor looks like a shorted collector base junction. Though I do not have it out of circuit yet. Its Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. Thats pretty amazing. I am looking through my xsistors to find something close. May just through a 2n3904 in for a quick test. Its beta is nothing like the 6429. But it would help to prove/disprove the point that the low V may be offsetting the oscillator I hope. Will also embed a K thermal couple to verify the oven really is in the 80-84C region. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update
I find it hard to believe that NTE spec the 123AP to replace a transistor with min beta of 500... This is quite entertaining: http://www.vetco.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1856 Look at the parts it's supposed to replace. (Nothing against Vetco - they are a great source of NTE components and are local to me. They are just quoting what NTE claim.) Orin. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:42 PM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote: The 2N6429 crosses to an NTE123AP, in stock at Allied for $0.80. http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70214870mkwid=szEc5 jMBIpcrid=23468365337pkw=nte123appmt=epdv=cgclid=CKyzu9_cybgCFWYV7AodJA sAWQ Good luck. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:29 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 update Well learned quite a bit Q4 does have an issue. Further there is a reason it has such high Beta. Its must deliver 30 ma to the oscillator and buffer. I was quite surprised by this current level. I was guessing the oscillator was a few mils and the buffer maybe 8. The 2n3904 simply does not cut it. Need to do some digging in the ole transistors. Regards Paul. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:06 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I can hope I will embed a k thermocouple also. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:45 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The regulator should be fixed, and the OCXO will work better with it repaired. That said, shifting the regulated voltage from 5.7 to 5.27 volts should not shift that oscillator 45 Hz. Bob On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:00 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello to the group. Numbers of threads running on the HP 10811. Mine is 45 Hz low. The oven is most likely ok. I did get the can open per the various other threads and the web pix. Started testing the circuits and have found that the regulator for the oscillator isn't. Its supposed to produce 5.7V and is at 5.27V thats pretty significant. The transistor looks like a shorted collector base junction. Though I do not have it out of circuit yet. Its Q4 a 2n6429. What interesting about this transistor is its beta at 1 ma is 500 min and max is 1300. Its not a darlington. Thats pretty amazing. I am looking through my xsistors to find something close. May just through a 2n3904 in for a quick test. Its beta is nothing like the 6429. But it would help to prove/disprove the point that the low V may be offsetting the oscillator I hope. Will also embed a K thermal couple to verify the oven really is in the 80-84C region. Regards Paul. WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
