Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Hi guys, I have uploaded a new version of the CTRI-Scope measurement. There was a typo on a number and several descriptions that has probably excited more than one person and that has triggered my stress to levels I did not know until now. Having said that, have a look at it again if you are interested. There have been many people looking at the result of the measurements. The idea behind this is informing how the measurement has been done, rather than having you discovering a bug. In any case, CERN measurements, hardware schematics and sources are open to any curious mind. We have created a separated list where we will continue posting news on the project. http://lists.ohwr.org/sympa/info/cngs-time-transfer Please, feel free to join it and send any questions, remarks and complains on this project. Best regards, pablo ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 12:41 AM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 9/25/11 3:26 PM, Hal Murray wrote: javier.serrano.pareja@gmail.**com javier.serrano.par...@gmail.com said: A fiber-based time-transfer would be nice complementary as it would provide an independent timing path. Any ideas on how to proceed? This is unknown territory for me. You can get a lot of good ideas from the radio astronomers. It's been discussed here in the past, but I don't know what terms to use when searching the archives. I think it was mostly pointers to their papers. They were interested is much shorter distances. I think it was 10-20 km. The idea is to send a signal in both directions over the same fiber. If it's the same fiber, the transit times are likely to be the same in both directions. If you send a pulse out and back, you can assume the time the pulse arrived at the far end was half the round trip time after it left the start. Whatever you do, it will require a lot of cooperation from the people who own the fibers. The Deep Space Network do lots of this kind of thing for interferometry. I did not express myself correctly. We know how to do accurate two-way sync over a few km of fiber. See e.g. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13409775/pac2011/WEOAN1.pdf or http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13409775/wrapper.pdf (our contribution to the CLIC Conceptual Design Report). What is new for us is going through more than 1000 km of fiber (only neutrinos have the luxury of going in a straight line through the crust of the Earth, 732 km). I wonder who one calls for fibers and also more technical things like optical amplifier technology with typical ranges, etc. What I gather from the discussion so far is that 100 km is within reach of available optical transceivers. I wonder how far one can go with EDFAs. One thing we could do is establish a fiber link between METAS in Bern and CERN, and then look for a good metrology place in Rome (the national one in Italy is in Torino I believe) and have a link between them and Gran Sasso. Then we could use their UTC data sets to establish a paper link between CERN and Gran Sasso which would be independent of the current link. Cheers, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
At 6:56 AM + 9/26/11, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: (really Javier S) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:56:12 +0200 From: Javier Serrano javier.serrano.par...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino Message-ID: CAHBYzfTSx=jMKg218Sy6F9ji93OAht2=60w9_yy74-g-bkh...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 [snip] I did not express myself correctly. We know how to do accurate two-way sync over a few km of fiber. See e.g. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13409775/pac2011/WEOAN1.pdf or http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13409775/wrapper.pdf (our contribution to the CLIC Conceptual Design Report). Thanks for the reports. What is new for us is going through more than 1000 km of fiber (only neutrinos have the luxury of going in a straight line through the crust of the Earth, 732 km). I wonder who one calls for fibers and also more technical things like optical amplifier technology with typical ranges, etc. What I gather from the discussion so far is that 100 km is within reach of available optical transceivers. I wonder how far one can go with EDFAs. EDFAs can easily achieve 10 dB or running closer to the edge 20 dB of gain, all with no electronics delay, but EDFAs are quite noisy, so there is a tradeoff to be made. EDFAs are inherently bidirectional, although they usually contain an optical circulator to make them unilateral. But it would not be hard to make EDFAs that amplified in one direction for one wavelength, and in the opposite direction at a different (but nearby) wavelength. And one can also have a command wavelength, to allow for commanding of direction reversals and the like, so the fiber companies involvement is limited to hosting and installation of equipment. One thing we could do is establish a fiber link between METAS in Bern and CERN, and then look for a good metrology place in Rome (the national one in Italy is in Torino I believe) and have a link between them and Gran Sasso. Then we could use their UTC data sets to establish a paper link between CERN and Gran Sasso which would be independent of the current link. Why do all that, versus just running an amplified fiber between CERN and Gran Sasso? Two links are likely to be twice the trouble and error. Joe Gwinn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Hi Pablo, From: pablo alvarez pabloalvarezsanc...@gmail.com Here you have the reports on the CERN's timing chain. http://www.ohwr.org/documents/111 Questions are welcome! Singapore, Singapore: Packets lost (100%) 87.106.213.168 Amsterdam2, Netherlands: Packets lost (100%) 87.106.213.168 Florida, U.S.A.: Packets lost (100%) 87.106.213.168 11 ms1 ms1 ms www.on4jln.be [10.149.85.30] 220 ms 7 ms 6 ms 10.158.0.1 381 ms90 ms88 ms 109.88.204.1 410 ms 4 ms19 ms 212.68.211.13 519 ms10 ms14 ms 212.68.211.133 6 8 ms10 ms13 ms 212.3.232.1 712 ms20 ms12 ms ae-6-6.ebr1.London1.Level3.net [4.69.136.246] 817 ms23 ms27 ms ae-47-47.ebr1.Paris1.Level3.net [4.69.143.110] 920 ms19 ms30 ms ae-1-51.edge5.Paris1.Level3.net [4.69.139.203] 10 106 ms 101 ms 110 ms 11-INTERNET.edge5.Paris1.Level3.net [212.73.200.54] 11 *** Request timed out. 12 *** Request timed out. Cool! Bye, Jean-Louis ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Well it seems there are some time-nuts looking. Here you have it, for the moment. *BCT, Beam Current Transformer *CCR, Cern's Control Room. *cfc-ccr-ctpps, The front end (a PC running SC5 linux) where we have installed the CTRI that logs the PPS comming from the PolarRx2e *cfc-hca4-saos12. The front end where we do the BCT logging, it has a CTRI and a DC110. *CS4000, A cesium clock by symmetricom *CTRI, control timing receiver, PCI format *CTSYN, Takes the 10MHz and PPS from the XLi and regenerates a 40MHz and a PPS *DC110, Acquiris Scope *HCA442, It is the hall where we have the CTRI tagging and the extraction kicker pulse and the DC110 logging the BCT signal. *PolarRx2e, A septentrio timing gps receiver *SPS, Super Proton Synchroton *XLi, A symmetricom gps receiver pablo ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
We are adding more info to the wiki project. Please go directly to http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cngs-time-transfer/wiki/Wiki Cheers, pablo ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: I was about to ask for the specific papers of time calibrations, even if the overview presentation indicates that the verification steps I expect to be there have been done. Also the path calibrations needs to be described more in detail than in the paper. I'll discuss with Pablo to see how we can put more stuff on the web. First thought was that someone forgot to compensate for GPS antenna cable delays. We did not forget. The two GPS calibration campaigns (zero baseline and portable receiver) were done with antenna and antenna cable included. Do you have direct fiber between the locations? You mean between CERN and Gran Sasso? No, but that's certainly something we could explore for the future. Cheers, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
On 25/09/11 08:35, Javier Serrano wrote: On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: I was about to ask for the specific papers of time calibrations, even if the overview presentation indicates that the verification steps I expect to be there have been done. Also the path calibrations needs to be described more in detail than in the paper. I'll discuss with Pablo to see how we can put more stuff on the web. First thought was that someone forgot to compensate for GPS antenna cable delays. We did not forget. The two GPS calibration campaigns (zero baseline and portable receiver) were done with antenna and antenna cable included. I assumed so from the statements relating to time, in particular the PTB time transfer test proving a 2,3 ns difference. Which still doesn't satisfy my curiosity. A 60 ns offset between the sites would account for the missing time. Similarly a 18 m shorter distance would also account for the missing time. Due to the large distance I would start in that end to ensure it works. This article puts focus into precission time-transfer between two sites. Do you have direct fiber between the locations? You mean between CERN and Gran Sasso? No, but that's certainly something we could explore for the future. A fiber-based time-transfer would be nice complementary as it would provide an independent timing path. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Fiber has to follow the curvature of the earth I do not think neutrinos do. Bert In a message dated 9/25/2011 4:08:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes: On 25/09/11 08:35, Javier Serrano wrote: On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: I was about to ask for the specific papers of time calibrations, even if the overview presentation indicates that the verification steps I expect to be there have been done. Also the path calibrations needs to be described more in detail than in the paper. I'll discuss with Pablo to see how we can put more stuff on the web. First thought was that someone forgot to compensate for GPS antenna cable delays. We did not forget. The two GPS calibration campaigns (zero baseline and portable receiver) were done with antenna and antenna cable included. I assumed so from the statements relating to time, in particular the PTB time transfer test proving a 2,3 ns difference. Which still doesn't satisfy my curiosity. A 60 ns offset between the sites would account for the missing time. Similarly a 18 m shorter distance would also account for the missing time. Due to the large distance I would start in that end to ensure it works. This article puts focus into precission time-transfer between two sites. Do you have direct fiber between the locations? You mean between CERN and Gran Sasso? No, but that's certainly something we could explore for the future. A fiber-based time-transfer would be nice complementary as it would provide an independent timing path. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
What about rotation of the earth? Jim Cotton n8qoh On 9/25/11 2:35 AM, Javier Serrano wrote: On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: I was about to ask for the specific papers of time calibrations, even if the overview presentation indicates that the verification steps I expect to be there have been done. Also the path calibrations needs to be described more in detail than in the paper. I'll discuss with Pablo to see how we can put more stuff on the web. First thought was that someone forgot to compensate for GPS antenna cable delays. We did not forget. The two GPS calibration campaigns (zero baseline and portable receiver) were done with antenna and antenna cable included. Do you have direct fiber between the locations? You mean between CERN and Gran Sasso? No, but that's certainly something we could explore for the future. Cheers, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
In message CAHBYzfTXMdD3onFJxAMQN==jv1lrlh1s7enwnrvzlhjov6p...@mail.gmail.com, Javier Serrano wr ites: Do you have direct fiber between the locations? You mean between CERN and Gran Sasso? No, but that's certainly something we could explore for the future. 700km is too far to expect a dark fiber to do much good for you, unless it is an erbium repeatered sea-bed type of fiber you lay down yourself. Two conventionally repeatered fibres, one in each direction, would be a heck of a calibration task, requiring cooperation from a lot of telco people to switch directions for the calibration, and even more unlikely, that the telco people keep their hands off after the calibration. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
What about rotation of the earth? Jim, Correct, there is the Sagnac effect to account for when you travel easterly or westerly with a portable cesium clock (or equivalently, when you send E/M timing signals over wire, fiber, or up/down to a satellite). Typically the correction is built into the software timing that labs use to perform one-way, common view, or two-way sat synchronization. For example, the 1pps from a GPS timing receiver already has this effect included, so no one needs to worry about it anymore. Still, let's say they forgot. You can estimate how much the Sagnac effect would be between CERN (46N 06E) and GSNL (42N 14E) and the answer is about 2.4 ns. Using sagnac.exe (src sagnac.c) from www.leapsecond.com/tools/ here's the rough estimate: 0.2074 us sagnac effect (full round-trip at equator) 0.1073 us sagnac effect (full round-trip at latitude 44) 0.0024 us sagnac effect (8 degree longitude trip at latitude 44) So earth rotation is not where their missing nanoseconds are. The other way to calculate: at 44 degrees latitude, the earth spins about 335 m/s (750 mph). The neutrinos travel east from CERN to GSNL at c for about 2.43 milliseconds. During that short trip, the earth moves only 0.8 meters. /tvb We did not forget. The two GPS calibration campaigns (zero baseline and portable receiver) were done with antenna and antenna cable included. You mean between CERN and Gran Sasso? No, but that's certainly something we could explore for the future. Cheers, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: I assumed so from the statements relating to time, in particular the PTB time transfer test proving a 2,3 ns difference. Which still doesn't satisfy my curiosity. We still don't have the final PTB report. Here's a preliminary one: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13409775/ptb_preliminary_report.pdf A 60 ns offset between the sites would account for the missing time. Similarly a 18 m shorter distance would also account for the missing time. Due to the large distance I would start in that end to ensure it works. The geodesy effort was led by others. I am told they did things very carefully. Do you have direct fiber between the locations? You mean between CERN and Gran Sasso? No, but that's certainly something we could explore for the future. A fiber-based time-transfer would be nice complementary as it would provide an independent timing path. Any ideas on how to proceed? This is unknown territory for me. Cheers, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
On 25/09/11 21:14, Javier Serrano wrote: On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: I assumed so from the statements relating to time, in particular the PTB time transfer test proving a 2,3 ns difference. Which still doesn't satisfy my curiosity. We still don't have the final PTB report. Here's a preliminary one: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13409775/ptb_preliminary_report.pdf Many thanks. Will read. A 60 ns offset between the sites would account for the missing time. Similarly a 18 m shorter distance would also account for the missing time. Due to the large distance I would start in that end to ensure it works. The geodesy effort was led by others. I am told they did things very carefully. I am sure they where. It's both interesting to see how they went on doing it, as well as seeing if one can hack it into pieces. Part of the process I guess. Do you have direct fiber between the locations? You mean between CERN and Gran Sasso? No, but that's certainly something we could explore for the future. A fiber-based time-transfer would be nice complementary as it would provide an independent timing path. Any ideas on how to proceed? This is unknown territory for me. Getting a connection setup should not be too hard, but it depends on number of details, but it is being done on commercial basis. A two-way transfer system (a few different options may be available) can then use this connection. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Hi: The preliminary PTB report does not have info on what the waveforms look like going into the SR620. It only implies that the trigger levels were set at 1.0 volts. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.End2PartyGovernment.com/ We still don't have the final PTB report. Here's a preliminary one: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13409775/ptb_preliminary_report.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
javier.serrano.par...@gmail.com said: A fiber-based time-transfer would be nice complementary as it would provide an independent timing path. Any ideas on how to proceed? This is unknown territory for me. You can get a lot of good ideas from the radio astronomers. It's been discussed here in the past, but I don't know what terms to use when searching the archives. I think it was mostly pointers to their papers. They were interested is much shorter distances. I think it was 10-20 km. The idea is to send a signal in both directions over the same fiber. If it's the same fiber, the transit times are likely to be the same in both directions. If you send a pulse out and back, you can assume the time the pulse arrived at the far end was half the round trip time after it left the start. Whatever you do, it will require a lot of cooperation from the people who own the fibers. Telecommunications fibers can go roughly 100 km between repeaters. Fibers don't go in straight lines so you will probably need 10-20 repeaters. Maybe more. Normal repeaters don't work in both directions. You will have to use pairs of fibers and swap them to measure the difference in length. You may have to automate that step. Logically, what you want is a box containing: 4 fiber connectors 2 repeaters (one in each direction) several switches that can swap pairs of fibers. an ethernet port and CPU to flip the switches Each switch would have 2 fibers in and 2 out. They would either go straight through or cross over. (You can build that from 4 single-pole double-throw switches.) I think you need 4 of those switches: two for the fibers going in each direction, and two to swap the repeaters. Maybe the delays through the repeaters are consistent enough that you don't have to swap them. In the way old days of FDDI, before they invented hubs, they were working on mechanical switches to bypass a workstation when it was powered off. I wonder if that technology is still around. One thing to watch out for... The telephone companies are used to swapping fibers without telling customers. If you had a setup like that, would you want to use it for all your tests, or just once to verify your GPS based timing? For a one-shot run, it might be possible to use people to swap the fibers. Assume the repeaters don't need to be measured. Assume it takes 1 minute to measure the round trip time and 1 minute to swap fibers. With 20 repeaters, that's less than an hour. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
On 9/25/11 3:26 PM, Hal Murray wrote: javier.serrano.par...@gmail.com said: A fiber-based time-transfer would be nice complementary as it would provide an independent timing path. Any ideas on how to proceed? This is unknown territory for me. You can get a lot of good ideas from the radio astronomers. It's been discussed here in the past, but I don't know what terms to use when searching the archives. I think it was mostly pointers to their papers. They were interested is much shorter distances. I think it was 10-20 km. The idea is to send a signal in both directions over the same fiber. If it's the same fiber, the transit times are likely to be the same in both directions. If you send a pulse out and back, you can assume the time the pulse arrived at the far end was half the round trip time after it left the start. Whatever you do, it will require a lot of cooperation from the people who own the fibers. The Deep Space Network do lots of this kind of thing for interferometry. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
I may be a bit naive, but how would physically carrying several caesium clocks back and forth compare to these fibre optic methods? cheers, Neville Michie ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com wrote: The article is actually pretty fascinating regarding how it was all done. Light can't go through rock (very far), neither can most other particles (some farther than others). Neutrinos can pass through earth and the sun unimpeded. It is neat apparently they set up a fiber optic link to test the timing between the 2 locations (modeled the correct Length). Not quite. We used a traditional common view time transfer setup, using two Septentrio PolaRx2e receivers and two CS4000 Cesium clocks. Then the signals had to be sent from the GPS receiver locations to the extraction at CERN and to the cavern in Opera, and we did have to take care of fiber delays. More details here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13409775/cern-cal.pdf And for reference, the general paper here: http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897 Cheers, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
On 24/09/11 18:15, Javier Serrano wrote: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Bill Daileydocdai...@gmail.com wrote: The article is actually pretty fascinating regarding how it was all done. Light can't go through rock (very far), neither can most other particles (some farther than others). Neutrinos can pass through earth and the sun unimpeded. It is neat apparently they set up a fiber optic link to test the timing between the 2 locations (modeled the correct Length). Not quite. We used a traditional common view time transfer setup, using two Septentrio PolaRx2e receivers and two CS4000 Cesium clocks. Then the signals had to be sent from the GPS receiver locations to the extraction at CERN and to the cavern in Opera, and we did have to take care of fiber delays. More details here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13409775/cern-cal.pdf And for reference, the general paper here: http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897 I was about to ask for the specific papers of time calibrations, even if the overview presentation indicates that the verification steps I expect to be there have been done. Also the path calibrations needs to be described more in detail than in the paper. First thought was that someone forgot to compensate for GPS antenna cable delays. Do you have direct fiber between the locations? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Interesting... one co-author, at least, is member of this list :) Regards, Javier El 23/09/2011 06:51, Jim Palfreyman escribió: For those of you who may be interested, here's the paper. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1109/1109.4897.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Well that's good Javier - at least we know the timing's good. Who? On Friday, 23 September 2011, Javier Herrero jherr...@hvsistemas.es wrote: Interesting... one co-author, at least, is member of this list :) Regards, Javier El 23/09/2011 06:51, Jim Palfreyman escribió: For those of you who may be interested, here's the paper. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1109/1109.4897.pdf http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1109/1109.4897.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
I was just wondering, what real use is the kind of accuracy most of the list members strive for, and there is the answer. On 9/23/2011 7:09 AM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: Well that's good Javier - at least we know the timing's good. Who? On Friday, 23 September 2011, Javier Herrerojherr...@hvsistemas.es wrote: Interesting... one co-author, at least, is member of this list :) Regards, Javier El 23/09/2011 06:51, Jim Palfreyman escribió: For those of you who may be interested, here's the paper. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1109/1109.4897.pdf http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1109/1109.4897.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3913 - Release Date: 09/22/11 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
The other Javier in the list, Javier Serrano from CERN El 23/09/2011 13:09, Jim Palfreyman escribió: Well that's good Javier - at least we know the timing's good. Who? On Friday, 23 September 2011, Javier Herrerojherr...@hvsistemas.es wrote: Interesting... one co-author, at least, is member of this list :) Regards, Javier El 23/09/2011 06:51, Jim Palfreyman escribió: For those of you who may be interested, here's the paper. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1109/1109.4897.pdf http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1109/1109.4897.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
In message 4e7c6bb7.1020...@hvsistemas.es, Javier Herrero writes: BTW: Just something to think about: There are three quantities involved here, and most of the coverage and quite a lot of physicists overlook that: 1. Speed of neutrinos 2. Speed of photons 3. Constant 'c' From relativity. Until now the assumption have been that 2 = 3, but this is only an assumption, based on the fact that we had no measurements that said otherwise. If 1 3, as most press-coverage seems to posit, because they forgot the above is an assumption, then both the standardmodel and relativity is in trouble. If 3 = 1 2, then only the standard model is in trouble, relativity unaffected. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
nr 2 = nr 3 is an assumption? I was thinking that it is a definition :) Regards, Javier El 23/09/2011 13:33, Poul-Henning Kamp escribió: In message4e7c6bb7.1020...@hvsistemas.es, Javier Herrero writes: BTW: Just something to think about: There are three quantities involved here, and most of the coverage and quite a lot of physicists overlook that: 1. Speed of neutrinos 2. Speed of photons 3. Constant 'c' From relativity. Until now the assumption have been that 2 = 3, but this is only an assumption, based on the fact that we had no measurements that said otherwise. If 1 3, as most press-coverage seems to posit, because they forgot the above is an assumption, then both the standardmodel and relativity is in trouble. If 3= 1 2, then only the standard model is in trouble, relativity unaffected. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
In message 4e7c7556.6090...@hvsistemas.es, Javier Herrero writes: nr 2 = nr 3 is an assumption? I was thinking that it is a definition :) No, not really. Maxwells equations talk about electromagnetic waves in empty space under the assumption that they have zero rest-mass, but we have never proved those waves to be photons, for instance by proving photons to have zero rest-mass. We have never been able to actually measure a rest-mass for the photon either, at best we have experimentally constrained it to be less than x * 10^-16 eV. Based on that everybody _assume_ that it is mathematically zero, and photons therefore identical to Maxwells EM-waves. But we do not actually have a proof of that, it is only an assumption. The neutrino was in a quite similar position until a few years go: My entire generation grew up with neutrinoes being mass-less just like photons and then we suddenly found out it probably wasn't mass-less. Mind you: My money is on experimental mistake, quite likely application of insufficient general relativity. But if the experiment holds up to scrutiny and is replicated, my money will not be on overrelativistic neutrinos, but on photons having rest-mass, because that would leave the theory of relativity standing and confine the damage to only the already somewhat troubled standard-model. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Quoted There are three quantities involved here, and most of the coverage and quite a lot of physicists overlook that: 1. Speed of neutrinos 2. Speed of photons 3. Constant 'c' From relativity. Until now the assumption have been that 2 = 3, but this is only an assumption, based on the fact that we had no measurements that said otherwise. If 1 3, as most press-coverage seems to posit, because they forgot the above is an assumption, then both the standardmodel and relativity is in trouble. If 3 = 1 2, then only the standard model is in trouble, relativity unaffected. -- This doesn't make sense. The speed of photons in a vacuum is well established to be c (speed of light). That is as close to scientific fact as there is. Neutrinos are well established to have a speed close to c. The problem is this is the second instance that i am aware of where they apparently arrive at a detector in an amount of time consistent with an apparent speed of slightly greater than c. The complicating factor here is they aren't really sure if neutrinos actually have mass. Therefore they may not need adhere to the mass portion of relativity and hence may be more like photons. They won't put forth ANY suppositions until they are sure they haven't made a mistake. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Fun to guess. Time must be running backwards. Or maybe they have negative mass. If truly faster than C, SOMETHING nonsensical must be true. Indeed.. How would they know where to have been tomorrow? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
I'm old enough to not pay much attention to these 'scientific breakthroughs' announced across the sports or comics page. Remember cold fusion? Often a 'scientist' gets drunk and spills out nonsense to a reporter barely catching up with the spelling of the buzzwords, and suddenly the Earth isn't flat anymore... I put $20 on 3 = 1 2, same as Poul, without having read the article. jose -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 10:17 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 5:44 AM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com wrote: The complicating factor here is they aren't really sure if neutrinos actually have mass. Therefore they may not need adhere to the mass portion of relativity and hence may be more like photons. They won't put forth ANY suppositions until they are sure they haven't made a mistake. I think we all want these neutrinos to be faster than C (not just faster then photons) because it would be fun to live through a revolution in physics.A simple mis-calculation would be so boring. If I had to bet I'd bet on the boring error that was missed by 100 co-authors. I'd be happy to loose my bet. Can we assume for a minute the result is correct and they really are literally faster than C.What does it mean to be faster than C at this large macroscopic scale of kilometers Fun to guess. Time must be running backwards. Or maybe they have negative mass. If truly faster than C, SOMETHING nonsensical must be true. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Worse yet, top posters will reply at the bottom and vice-versa !!! :-) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of David VanHorn Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 11:14 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino Fun to guess. Time must be running backwards. Or maybe they have negative mass. If truly faster than C, SOMETHING nonsensical must be true. Indeed.. How would they know where to have been tomorrow? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Maybe I've missed something but... have they tried this experiment with anything else than neutrinos? Or, is it possible to repeat the experiment with any other thing? OK, the neutrino is faster than light but the others? Can we test over the same distance, same detectors (or the appropriate detectors but in the same place)? More: are neutrinos supposed to travel from CERN to Gran Sasso via what? Is there a 730Km long empty pipe or they travel through earth, rocks, water and whatever they can find underground? For empty pipe I mean with scientific grade high vacuum, of course. On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jose Camara camar...@quantacorp.comwrote: Worse yet, top posters will reply at the bottom and vice-versa !!! :-) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of David VanHorn Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 11:14 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino Fun to guess. Time must be running backwards. Or maybe they have negative mass. If truly faster than C, SOMETHING nonsensical must be true. Indeed.. How would they know where to have been tomorrow? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Hi Azelio: Rock. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.End2PartyGovernment.com/ Azelio Boriani wrote: Maybe I've missed something but... have they tried this experiment with anything else than neutrinos? Or, is it possible to repeat the experiment with any other thing? OK, the neutrino is faster than light but the others? Can we test over the same distance, same detectors (or the appropriate detectors but in the same place)? More: are neutrinos supposed to travel from CERN to Gran Sasso via what? Is there a 730Km long empty pipe or they travel through earth, rocks, water and whatever they can find underground? For empty pipe I mean with scientific grade high vacuum, of course. On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jose Camaracamar...@quantacorp.comwrote: Worse yet, top posters will reply at the bottom and vice-versa !!! :-) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of David VanHorn Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 11:14 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino Fun to guess. Time must be running backwards. Or maybe they have negative mass. If truly faster than C, SOMETHING nonsensical must be true. Indeed.. How would they know where to have been tomorrow? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Hi again: What is the speed of light in rock? Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.End2PartyGovernment.com/ Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Azelio: Rock. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.End2PartyGovernment.com/ Azelio Boriani wrote: Maybe I've missed something but... have they tried this experiment with anything else than neutrinos? Or, is it possible to repeat the experiment with any other thing? OK, the neutrino is faster than light but the others? Can we test over the same distance, same detectors (or the appropriate detectors but in the same place)? More: are neutrinos supposed to travel from CERN to Gran Sasso via what? Is there a 730Km long empty pipe or they travel through earth, rocks, water and whatever they can find underground? For empty pipe I mean with scientific grade high vacuum, of course. On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jose Camaracamar...@quantacorp.comwrote: Worse yet, top posters will reply at the bottom and vice-versa !!! :-) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of David VanHorn Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 11:14 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino Fun to guess. Time must be running backwards. Or maybe they have negative mass. If truly faster than C, SOMETHING nonsensical must be true. Indeed.. How would they know where to have been tomorrow? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
What is the speed of light in rock? C Don Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Hi Don: I don't think so, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.End2PartyGovernment.com/ Don Latham wrote: What is the speed of light in rock? C Don Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
On 9/23/2011 3:23 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi again: What is the speed of light in rock? Outside of a cave the answer is C. Inside a cave, it's too dark to read my watch. (With apologies to Grocho Marx) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
On 9/23/11 1:23 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi again: What is the speed of light in rock? that's a really interesting question, because it's not like a EM wave propagating, where the dielectric constant is what you care about. OTOH, I suppose that since EM waves are also photons, there must be some sort of propagation constant. But what's the permittivity of rock at the frequency (energy) of a neutrino ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Do quantum entanglement experiments with photons qualify? (Admittedly it's a different situation, but the coupling is apparently faster than c?) -Greg - Original Message - From: Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@screen.it To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino Maybe I've missed something but... have they tried this experiment with anything else than neutrinos? Or, is it possible to repeat the experiment with any other thing? OK, the neutrino is faster than light but the others? Can we test over the same distance, same detectors (or the appropriate detectors but in the same place)? More: are neutrinos supposed to travel from CERN to Gran Sasso via what? Is there a 730Km long empty pipe or they travel through earth, rocks, water and whatever they can find underground? For empty pipe I mean with scientific grade high vacuum, of course. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
In message CAL8XPmO_T-R1y=qumswtunhdnme0seti+6xtdgww4jdvz2j...@mail.gmail.com , Azelio Boriani writes: More: are neutrinos supposed to travel from CERN to Gran Sasso via what? Via solid rock. Is there a 730Km long empty pipe [...] No, and you'd need one to actually try the same distance with photons. The complication is that the solid rock path is actually used as sort of a filter for the neutrinos, nothing else goes through 730km bedrock so if you see anything coming from that direction, you can be pretty certain that it is neutrinos. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 14:51:26 +1000 From: Jim Palfreyman jim77...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino Message-ID: CALH-g5ZABVtfCR0=h3ywjtjc23kowwk59sf3_qcie0ig6_x...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 For those of you who may be interested, here's the paper. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1109/1109.4897.pdf The path is through 730 kilometers of solid rock, so only neutrinos will do. And neutrinos are the least understood of particles. If I read the article correctly, the neutrinos appear to travel 25 parts per million faster than C, which if true is still revolutionary. But while the result is quite significant in statistical terms (6 sigma), 25 ppm is pretty small, and could easily be caused by some subtle systemic error. One assumes *very* subtle, given that none of the ~100 coauthors could find it, and it won't have been for lack of trying. Now the world physics community is on the case, so it may not take all that long. Joe Gwinn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Just a thought: would it be possible that the bedrock act as a negative-index composite material for neutrinos: that would make them faster than light, but since it's not in vacuum, they would still be politically correct ??? Jean-Louis - Original Message - From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino In message CAL8XPmO_T-R1y=qumswtunhdnme0seti+6xtdgww4jdvz2j...@mail.gmail.com , Azelio Boriani writes: More: are neutrinos supposed to travel from CERN to Gran Sasso via what? Via solid rock. Is there a 730Km long empty pipe [...] No, and you'd need one to actually try the same distance with photons. The complication is that the solid rock path is actually used as sort of a filter for the neutrinos, nothing else goes through 730km bedrock so if you see anything coming from that direction, you can be pretty certain that it is neutrinos. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
As always, the answer is 'it depends'. :) Solid rock? Liquid rock? Gaseous rock? Plasma? :) Wavelength? A nice light rock like calcite it probably isn't too tough to measure. Si02 is pretty easy too, I'm sure. For classic basaltic or feldspathic rocks, I suspect you are going to need something well outside the visible spectrum. At least in the first two phases. Not to mention the issues in a non homogenous rock. Bob the GeologyPhysics major. On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Chris Howard ch...@elfpen.com wrote: On 9/23/2011 3:23 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi again: What is the speed of light in rock? Outside of a cave the answer is C. Inside a cave, it's too dark to read my watch. (With apologies to Grocho Marx) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
OK, thanks for your replies. So we have: neutrinos traveling through bedrock compared to photons/EM waves traveling through empty space. Neutrinos are 60nS early at the finish line, 730534m after the start. 60nS for light (in empty space) is 18m: are they sure where the start line is? The decay tube is 995m long and the starting point was determined by simulations, 18m is the 1% of 995m. On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 10:49 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dkwrote: In message CAL8XPmO_T-R1y= qumswtunhdnme0seti+6xtdgww4jdvz2j...@mail.gmail.com , Azelio Boriani writes: More: are neutrinos supposed to travel from CERN to Gran Sasso via what? Via solid rock. Is there a 730Km long empty pipe [...] No, and you'd need one to actually try the same distance with photons. The complication is that the solid rock path is actually used as sort of a filter for the neutrinos, nothing else goes through 730km bedrock so if you see anything coming from that direction, you can be pretty certain that it is neutrinos. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
At 04:23 PM 9/23/2011, Brooke Clarke wrote... What is the speed of light in rock? Well, for quartzite (fused quartz), it's c/1.4585. HTH! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
Faster than in reggae but slower than in hip-hop. Brian -- From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 1:26 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino What is the speed of light in rock? C Don Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
