Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Dave, in your post to which I responded, you use reason and the theoretical to completely change the reality pictured in the biblical scriptures. Here is what you wrote: It seems to me the main difference is that you believe it necessary for the pain to be inflicted on Jesus from a 3rd party to make the atonement work. From my perspective, Jesus took our sins upon himself and suffered because of them without needing a 3rd party.No matter what one THINKS about the circumstance, the fact remains that He did suffer and die at the hands of a 3rd party. The spear you mentioned, probably drew little blood. But the beating he experienced left its stains on the cross as did the blood from the nail pierced hands and feet. There is no blood in the garden except for Peter's assault on the Roman guard. i am not sure why the others on this forum are not making the point -- but the statement is "drops as if blood." Blaine's picture of blood on the saddle, blood on the ground, blood all around is simply not accurate if one speaks from scripture. Not even close. Christ'sdeath on the cross was the sacrifice that ended all sacrifice for sin ... a once and for all time thing. The sacrifice He fulfilled (and , thus brought to an end) was one done by a third part y- the butcher of something pure. Mormon doctrine from what I can see, does not teach the association obvious in biblical scripture between the old testament sacrifices for sin and that of Christ. The Mormon church simply misses this point -- teaching a very different gosple. Why this is done, is beyond me, but it is not of God -- or the biblical scriptures have been superceded by the Mormon scriptures. On this specific point, there are not two valid postions - only one. The ideas are mutally exclusive. p; -- Original message -- From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] The(biblical)fact is this: He died on the cross at the hands of others.DAVEH: I agree, John. What do you think caused Jesus to suffer so much in the Garden of Gethsemane?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] some differences in our views.DAVEH: To boil it down, Terry..It seems to me the main difference is that you believe it necessary for the pain to be inflicted on Jesus from a 3rd party to make the atonement work. From my perspective, Jesus took our sins upon himself and suffered because of them without needing a 3rd party. you contrast the theoretical with the (biblical) reality. The(biblical)fact is this: He died on the cross at the hands of others.Converting thetheoretical into a "fact" puts you (or anyone) at the center of your faith. As I mentioned before, his death was a necessary element of the atonement, because IF he had not died, the atonement would have been unable to have any effect due to our physical death preventing us from return ing from the grave. So, in effect his death on the cross sealed the dealwhich is admittedly a poor choice of words. The atonement was a series of events that needed to transpire before it could take effect, which why the Lord uttered the words, It is finished.I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the gardenDAVEH: I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit oddeffectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the dreaded event. Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he would succumb in such a way to that mental distress? I don't. Why do many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture? If on the other hand one would think (as you d id below) that he suffered such in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could he not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane?He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin.DAVEH: In effect, you are saying his physical death paid the price of sin. And, since our physical death is a result of Adam's sin, Jesus had to die to atone for our sins, notwithstanding Adam's sin. Yet I perceive that many Christians fail to differentiate the double nature of salvation. Do you recognize that Jesus' resurrection is a separate issue from his atonement for our sins, Terry?until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. DAVEH: I find that interesting. It had not occurred to me t hat you would feel that way. Do you know if that is perceived that way by most Christians?Terry Clifton wrote: I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views.I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
the Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement for the sins of the world. DAVEH: As I understand it, the atonement took place in the Garden of Gethsemane, and was finalized (sealed, so to speak) by Jesus' death on the cross. I'm certainly not an authority on this topic, nor am I probably able to explain the atonement in the authoritative detail you are requesting. As I see it, Jesus suffered greatly in the Garden of Gethsemane. Why? I believe it was because he was bearing the burden of our sins at that timein effect, taking upon himself our sins. Such suffering caused him to bleed from his pores. At the Last Supper, he explained to his Disciples that his blood would be shed.. [Mk 14:23] And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. [24] And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. ..and this was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane shortly after the Last Supper. The crucification itself brought him much pain and suffering as well, but interestingly the Bible makes no mention of him shedding blood on the cross until after his death, when his body was lanced with a spear. I believe the pain he suffered on the cross was caused by the physical torture to which he was subjected by being nailed to that cross, and then hung there in a manner designed to bring great suffering and pain, in contrast to the pain he suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane which was caused by what I believe was the effect of taking our sins upon himself. What do you believe brought enough pain to Jesus that it caused him to bleed from every pore in the Garden, John? In order for the atonement to be functional..yikes, that is probably not the best word to describe it, but I cannot think of a more appropriate term at the moment.. for each of us, Jesus had to provide a way for us to be resurrected. Without the resurrection, no atoning sacrifice would benefit those who are bound by (physical) death. Jesus was the only person who could accomplish the resurrection, and for that to happen, he had to die. The pain he suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane was not sufficient to bring death, but that which he experienced on the cross was more than adequate. Nobody could kill Jesus had he not been willing to die. Jesus had the power to call angels to his side to prevent his death there, but in lieu of that..the cross provided the means to bring about his physical death. So, the cross was the tool used by Jesus' enemies to kill him. He rose from the tomb on the 3rd day, which then made it possible for all to be resurrected. This gift of grace was freely given to all mortals, who had inherited physical death from Adam. Just as all who are born on this earth have no control (or option) as to whether or not they will die, Jesus overcame that obstacle for us. Had we not been able to overcome physical death, the need for the atonement would have been a non-issue. Since by virtue of the Lord's resurrection all will be resurrected, it then became possible for the atonement to be available for those who desire it. And as I've mentioned before, those who desire to overcome spiritual death need only to accept and love the Lord by keeping his commandments. Now the question becomes why do we need the atonement at all? If all are to be resurrected, what advantage is there for an atonement? That is where we need to consider the effect spiritual death has upon us. As I've defined it before, spiritual death happens when we are separated from God. Effectively, the further we are from the love of the Lord, the deeper in hell we reside, so to speak. In order to overcome that form of hell (and there are several), those who love the Lord seek to become one with him. To do that, we need to become perfect as God is perfect. Since God is without sin, and we are sinnersthat seems like an impossibility. However, by virtue of the atonement of our Redeemer, those who accept Jesus as their Savior can have their sins remitted, and hence become perfect (complete) as God is perfect.and become closer to and one with our Heavenly Father and Jesus. As I suggested before, without the possibility of a resurrection, the atonement would be of little effect, as physical death would confine us to hell. This explanation may be a bit brief, if not a little awkward..but I hope it answers your question, John. have I stumbled onto something of a difficulty for our Mormon friends? DAVEH: I don't see why you would think such, John. Evidence of the apostasy was already showing itself at the time the NT was being written, as Acts 20 suggested [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock ..and Paul affirmed in his epistle to the Galatians. [1:6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
I see power in the cross. You see defeat. DAVEH: The power of the cross as I see it was the ability of it to actually bring death to Jesus. That is not to say that I don't think Jesus had any power over the cross to prevent his death from occurring on it. Quite the contrary.I think Jesus could easily have avoided being nailed to the cross, as he could have called legions of angels to protect him from his enemies. But...that would not have permitted the plan of salvation to proceed as it had been planned from before the foundations of the world. You are right thoughI do not view the cross as having any good power at all. It was a tool of the enemies of Jesus, and he allowed himself to be subjected to it in order to become the perfect sacrifice. The power of Jesus is in his resurrection which brought life, not in the cross which brought death. The cross killed Jesus just as it killed those who were nailed to it before, since and at the same time. Nowyou have said that I view the cross as defeating Jesus. I don't perceive it that way at all. What temporary victory the enemies of Jesus may have felt by his death on the cross was certainly reversed by his subsequent resurrection. But his resurrection did not occur on the cross. From the time Jesus died on the cross and was subsequently resurrected on the 3rd day thereafter, Jesus experienced hell. By the time Jesus was resurrected, the cross was old history, so to speak. Do you think the cross had any power to resurrect Jesus? I'd be surprised if you do, DavidM. SO.why do you suggest the cross has any power? I view the cross as a symbol of death, whether it is the death of people buried in a cemetery or the cross worn by Christians or the cross that adorns Christian edifices which symbolizes the death of Jesus. It is a symbol of death, which I perceived you to say a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. ..which doesn't seem to different from what I said. I realize that many Christians use the cross to symbolize Jesus, effectively their view of his power over the cross. IF he had been stoned, would those same Christians be wearing a symbol of a stone around their neck, or adorning their edifices? Or, what if Jesus had been killed by a spearsay the spear that was used to lance his skin to make sure he was dead, had the cross not killed him? Would those same Christians then use a spear as their symbol? Just where does the power of Christ residein the device (whether it be a stone, spear or cross) used to kill him, or in his innate power as God? Do you believe Mary or any of the Primitive Christians used the cross as a symbol in the same way many do today? If not, then why do some Christians today feel differently than did the Primitive Christians? David Miller wrote: David Miller wrote: ... a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. Dave Hansen wrote: When I suggested similar, it brought a lot of chastisement. Why do you suppose the difference? Context. I don't think you understand the value of the cross. You raised its issue from skepticism concerning what value the symbol had. I raised the issue from using this symbol to illustrate the victory that Jesus wrought in the cross. I see power in the cross. You see defeat. Is this not true? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come. There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester, but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly innocent person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin possible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before they could be nailed to the cross. Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This is hard to do when any pressure on your feet causes pain because of the spike that nailed them to the cross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his legs, then hanging from his arms, no relief, even for a moment. The two thieves were finally suffocated when the soldiers took a mallet and crushed their legs, ending their ability to breath. With Jesus it was different. Prophecy said that not a bone would be broken and His legs were never hit with the mallet. At the moment He cried out, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me", He paid the price for our sins. Up until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. When He had done this, He gave up the ghost. No soldier took His life. He laid it down, for you and for me. When the soldier plunged the spear into His side, it would have lacerated the liver, and any blood left in His body would have been almost completely drained from it. Christ paid the ultimate price for my sins on that cross. His lifeless body was taken down from it. Just a final thought: The Bible I use says that every saved person is part of a royal priesthood. Jesus our Lord is high priests, and every follower of His is one of His priests. That tells me that the first black priest was the Etheopean eunuch that Phillip Baptized long before 1978. I hope you can see this. Terry the Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement for the sins of the world. DAVEH: As I understand it, the atonement took place in the Garden of Gethsemane, and was finalized (sealed, so to speak) by Jesus' death on the cross. I'm certainly not an authority on this topic, nor am I probably able to explain the atonement in the authoritative detail you are requesting. As I see it, Jesus suffered greatly in the Garden of Gethsemane. Why? I believe it was because he was bearing the burden of our sins at that timein effect, taking upon himself our sins. Such suffering caused him to bleed from his pores. At the Last Supper, he explained to his Disciples that his blood would be shed.. [Mk 14:23] And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. [24] And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. ..and this was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane shortly after the Last Supper. The crucification itself brought him much pain and suffering as well, but interestingly the Bible makes no mention of him shedding blood on the cross until after his death, when his body was lanced with a spear. I believe the pain he suffered on the cross was caused by the physical torture to which he was subjected by being nailed to that cross, and then hung there in a manner designed to bring great suffering and pain, in contrast to the pain he suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane which was caused by what I believe was the effect of taking our sins upon himself. What do you believe brought enough pain to Jesus that it
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Terry, Well said. The wages of sin is death, and since Jesus paid the price for our sins, it is his death that paid that price...not the stress He felt in Gethsemene, as great as it was. If that were so, the billions of animals that have been sacrificed by the Jews in in ages past for thier sins would not have been killed...the people could have just transferred their sin to them and then let them go...but there is no substitutionary atonement in that. To be substitutionary the sacrificial lamb MUST suffer the penalty that is due the sinner. Death. On the cross our Lord uttered the word tetelestai. It is finished (http://www.bible.org/qa.asp?topic_id=30qa_id=28). At that moment our debt was paid. He did not say that in the garden, because he did not pay the debt in the garden. The cross is a symbol of His death, yes, but it was His death on that cross that paid the price we could never pay. The cross is a symbol of the good news of our forgiven sins. The cross IS used in the Bible as a symbol by Jesus and the apostles...extensively. So, the question remains, who would make up such a lie that He atoned for our sins in the Garden? Maybe the same one that lied to Eve in the Garden? Perry From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 08:33:36 -0600 I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come. There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester, but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly innocent person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin possible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before they could be nailed to the cross. Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This is hard to do when any pressure on your feet causes pain because of the spike that nailed them to the cross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his legs, then hanging from his arms, no relief, even for a moment. The two thieves were finally suffocated when the soldiers took a mallet and crushed their legs, ending their ability to breath. With Jesus it was different. Prophecy said that not a bone would be broken and His legs were never hit with the mallet. At the moment He cried out, *My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me, *He paid the price for our sins. Up until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. When He had done this, He gave up the ghost. No soldier took His life. He laid it down, for you and for me. When the soldier plunged the spear into His side, it would have lacerated the liver, and any blood left in His body would have been almost completely drained from it. Christ paid the ultimate price for my sins on that cross. His lifeless body was taken down from it. Just a final thought: The Bible I use says that every saved person is part of a royal priesthood. Jesus our Lord is high priests, and every follower of His is one of His priests. That tells me that the first black priest was the Etheopean eunuch that Phillip Baptized long before 1978. I hope you can see this. Terry *the Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement for the sins of the world.* DAVEH: As I understand it, the atonement took place
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
My thinking, too, jd. In fact, I wonder if Marlin collects antiques. Marlin, do you hold onto the past in other ways, too? Blainerb In a message dated 12/25/2005 9:57:09 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello Marlin. Christmas has a very different definition around our house. I am not one who cares about the history or even the etimology of words and events that have taken on definitions of their own. It is a blessed time of year. We think of and even celebrate the birth of Christ, knowing that His presense was all about emanuel. jd -- Original message -- From: "Marlin halverson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1.) Christ 2.) Mass I think we all know that "Christ" refers to God's Son Jesus. The word "Mass" comes from Old English mæsse, a modification of (assumed) Vulgar Latin messa from the Late Latin missa, literally meaning "dismissal"; as in at the end of a religious service. The Middle English Christemasse, comes from Old English Cristes mæsse, literally, Christ's mass - shortened to "Christ-mas". Meaning the "dismissal" or passing away of Christ; or more directly, the death of Christ.. Those who understand a bit about the Catholic religion realize that the "Mass" always refers to the sacrificial death of Christ. The word "Christmas" comes from the Roman Catholic ritual. Folks walk around this time of year saying "Merry Christmas!" to each other. I wonder if it occurs to anyone they are saying "Merry Death of Christ." www.truthontheweb.org/NwsClpz/122405.htm- Maranatha
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
some differences in our views. DAVEH: To boil it down, Terry..It seems to me the main difference is that you believe it necessary for the pain to be inflicted on Jesus from a 3rd party to make the atonement work. From my perspective, Jesus took our sins upon himself and suffered because of them without needing a 3rd party. As I mentioned before, his death was a necessary element of the atonement, because IF he had not died, the atonement would have been unable to have any effect due to our physical death preventing us from returning from the grave. So, in effect his death on the cross sealed the dealwhich is admittedly a poor choice of words. The atonement was a series of events that needed to transpire before it could take effect, which why the Lord uttered the words, It is finished. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden DAVEH: I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit oddeffectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the dreaded event. Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he would succumb in such a way to that mental distress? I don't. Why do many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture? If on the other hand one would think (as you did below) that he suffered such in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could he not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane? He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. DAVEH: In effect, you are saying his physical death paid the price of sin. And, since our physical death is a result of Adam's sin, Jesus had to die to atone for our sins, notwithstanding Adam's sin. Yet I perceive that many Christians fail to differentiate the double nature of salvation. Do you recognize that Jesus' resurrection is a separate issue from his atonement for our sins, Terry? until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. DAVEH: I find that interesting. It had not occurred to me that you would feel that way. Do you know if that is perceived that way by most Christians? Terry Clifton wrote: I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come. There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester, but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly innocent person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin possible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before they could be nailed to the cross. Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This is hard to do when any pressure on your feet causes pain because of the spike that nailed them to the cross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his legs, then hanging from his arms, no relief, even for a moment. The two thieves were finally suffocated when the soldiers took a mallet and crushed their legs, ending their ability to breath. With Jesus it was different. Prophecy said that not a bone would be broken and His legs were never hit with the mallet. At the moment He cried out, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me", He paid the price for our sins. Up until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world,
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Dave wrote: some differences in our views. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden DAVEH: I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit oddeffectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the dreaded event. Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he would succumb in such a way to that mental distress? I don't. Why do many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture? If on the other hand one would think (as you did below) that he suffered such in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could he not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane? = 1. I don't think you (or I ) know how much God hates sin. Revulsion would be too mild a term. Hate may be too mild to describe it. Only when we fall at His feet a moment after we die will we truly realize how perfectly holy He is and how evil we are. Jesus was not mentally weak. He was morally strong. 2. Even a casual look at the blood sacrifices offered for the atonement of sin will tell you that the substitute has to die. The payback for sin is death. Always has been, always will be. I do not see Him dying for Adam's sin. I see that He died for mine. I think that anyone who sees Jesus as their personal savior feels that way. He died for me. I live for Him.
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
-- Original message -- From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] some differences in our views.DAVEH: To boil it down, Terry..It seems to me the main difference is that you believe it necessary for the pain to be inflicted on Jesus from a 3rd party to make the atonement work. From my perspective, Jesus took our sins upon himself and suffered because of them without needing a 3rd party. you contrast the theoretical with the (biblical) reality. The(biblical)fact is this: He died on the cross at the hands of others.Converting thetheoretical into a "fact" puts you (or anyone) at the center of your faith. As I mentioned before, his death was a necessary element of the atonement, because IF he had not died, the atonement would have been unable to have any effect due to our physical death preventing us from returning from the grave. So, in effect his death on the cross sealed the dealwhich is admittedly a poor choice of words. The atonement was a series of events that needed to transpire before it could take effect, which why the Lord uttered the words, It is finished.I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the gardenDAVEH: I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit oddeffectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the dreaded event. Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he would succumb in such a way to that mental distress? I don't. Why do many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture? If on the other hand one would think (as you did below) that he suffered such in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could he not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane?He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin.DAVEH: In effect, you are saying his physical death paid the price of sin. And, since our physical death is a result of Adam's sin, Jesus had to die to atone for our sins, notwithstanding Adam's sin. Yet I perceive that many Christians fail to differentiate the double nature of salvation. Do you recognize that Jesus' resurrection is a separate issue from his atonement for our sins, Terry?until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. DAVEH: I find that interesting. It had not occurred to me that you would feel that way. Do you know if that is perceived that way by most Christians?Terry Clifton wrote: I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views.I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come.There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester, but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly innocent person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin poss ible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin.He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before they could be nailed to the cross.Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This is hard to do when any pressure on your feet causes pain because of the spike that nailed them to the c ross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his legs, then hanging from his arms, no relief, even for a moment. The two thieves were finally suffocated when the soldiers took a mallet and crushed their legs, ending their ability to breath.With Jesus it was different. Prophecy said that not a
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
The(biblical)fact is this: He died on the cross at the hands of others. DAVEH: I agree, John. What do you think caused Jesus to suffer so much in the Garden of Gethsemane? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] some differences in our views. DAVEH: To boil it down, Terry..It seems to me the main difference is that you believe it necessary for the pain to be inflicted on Jesus from a 3rd party to make the atonement work. From my perspective, Jesus took our sins upon himself and suffered because of them without needing a 3rd party. you contrast the theoretical with the (biblical) reality. The(biblical)fact is this: He died on the cross at the hands of others.Converting thetheoretical into a "fact" puts you (or anyone) at the center of your faith. As I mentioned before, his death was a necessary element of the atonement, because IF he had not died, the atonement would have been unable to have any effect due to our physical death preventing us from returning from the grave. So, in effect his death on the cross sealed the dealwhich is admittedly a poor choice of words. The atonement was a series of events that needed to transpire before it could take effect, which why the Lord uttered the words, It is finished. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden DAVEH: I understand your perspective on this, but for Jesus to literally sweat blood worrying about what is to come seems a bit oddeffectively, it would seem the anticipation is worse than the dreaded event. Do you really believe Jesus was so weak as that he would succumb in such a way to that mental distress? I don't. Why do many Christians perceive Jesus as God, who is all powerful and then think he would be mentally weak when facing death by torture? If on the other hand one would think (as you d id below) that he suffered such in anticipation of taking on the sins of the world, then why could he not have taken upon himself our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane? He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. DAVEH: In effect, you are saying his physical death paid the price of sin. And, since our physical death is a result of Adam's sin, Jesus had to die to atone for our sins, notwithstanding Adam's sin. Yet I perceive that many Christians fail to differentiate the double nature of salvation. Do you recognize that Jesus' resurrection is a separate issue from his atonement for our sins, Terry? until that time, the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was guilty of every evil thing I have ever done. DAVEH: I find that interesting. It had not occurred to me t hat you would feel that way. Do you know if that is perceived that way by most Christians? Terry Clifton wrote: I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views. I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come. There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester, but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly inn ocent person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin poss ible would be something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was not what paid the price for our sin. He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before they could be nailed to the cross. Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This is hard to do when any pressure on your feet c auses pain because of the spike that nailed them to the c ross. So the victim alternates, first breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Thanks for this Judy. I've noted an interesting dichotomy over the years:Some LIVE their faith while some TALK their faith. You, Judy, LIVE it. Praise God for you. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 25, 2005 13:01 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! Thanks for sharing Iz and I do pray that all goes smoothly with the move, Our daughter with the kids, dog, hamster, and rabbit arrived about midnightand she was up until the early hours getting their Christmas arranged for them. I am trusting the Lord that it will all come together for us. Right now they aregone to visit one of her school friends who is down with her family and we are here with the animals. I have the \turkey in the oven and will have to do the rest before they return. Thank you JD for reminding me that loving and supporting them is ministry in itself because although we had planned to go wedidn't make it to either of the two services this morning. Our little grandaughter with the Leukemia takes a lot of time although she is looking really healthy and is just as sweet as ever. She wears an insulin pump now and so has to have her BS checked all the time and if it is up they give her a bolus. Iz would know what that is. The chemo drug is what gave her the diabetes and they hope this will go away when she is finished with these drugs- Her hair has grown backcurly and is really cute although her Dr. said it will straighten out later. We are enjoying them but the house is in an uproar. When they arrived around midnight the dog weed in the kitchen and Jenna slipped on it and insisted on taking a bath so that's how it goes. Oh! the joy of having a young family. I was encouraged to hear Jenna report that she no longer considers Hilary Duff to be a Christian (she's the one who lies just a little bit). Our dinner is at 4 p.m. and the rest of the family will be here then. Our son and his wife went to the early service at Church at they were going to her mothers for dinner at 1 p.m. The Lord is a very real presence and after all - He is the greatest gift. Merry Christmas to all from rainy VA From: ShieldsFamily We arent having Christmas this year, due to having half of our belongings at one house, and half at the other as we move. We never planned for our new home to be finished right before Christmas! So, no tree or decorations. No gifts. No food in the house. Just boxes and pandemonium in the background as we carry on with more important things, like my husband playing percussion for 8 pre-Christmas services, etc. What little bit of family is here joined us for one of the services the other night and then we, plus a few friends, went out to dinner together afterwards. I was not expecting to wake up early this morning to look outside at a layer of wet snow covering the ground and treesa perfect Christmas gift! After hauling a couple of carloads of boxes to the new house we will dine at the house of friends who always manage to be enormously hospitable in their tiny little house. They have the biggest of hearts. Then we will go together to see the movie Narnia. Christmas comes, ready or not, and you dont need a tree or presents. Its all about Him. Have a blessed one! iz
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Thank you Lance - What can I say? Noone knows
more than me how it is all grace..
He is faithful..
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 05:31:16 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Thanks for this Judy. I've noted an interesting
dichotomy over the years:Some LIVE their faith while some TALK their faith.
You, Judy, LIVE it. Praise God for you.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: December 25, 2005 13:01
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry
Christmas!
Thanks for sharing Iz and I
do pray that all goes smoothly with the
move,
Our daughter with the kids, dog, hamster, and
rabbit arrived about midnightand she was up until the early
hours
getting their Christmas
arranged for them. I am trusting the Lord that it will all come
together for us. Right now they
aregone to visit one of her school friends who is down with her family and we
are here with the animals. I have the \turkey in the oven and will have to do the rest before they return. Thank
you JD for reminding me that loving and supporting them is
ministry in itself because although we had planned
to go wedidn't make it to either of the two services this
morning.
Our little grandaughter
with the Leukemia takes a lot of time although she is looking really healthy
and is just as sweet
as ever. She wears
an insulin pump now and so has to have her BS checked all the time and if it
is up they give her
a bolus. Iz would
know what that is. The chemo drug is what gave her the diabetes and
they hope this will go away
when she is finished
with these drugs- Her hair has grown backcurly and is really
cute although her Dr. said it will
straighten out later.
We are enjoying them but the house is in an
uproar. When they arrived around midnight the dog weed in
the
kitchen and Jenna slipped on it and insisted on
taking a bath so that's how it goes. Oh! the joy of having a
young
family. I was encouraged to hear Jenna report
that she no longer considers Hilary Duff to be a Christian (she's the
one who lies just a little bit). Our dinner
is at 4 p.m. and the rest of the family will be here then. Our son and
his wife
went to the early service at Church at they were
going to her mothers for dinner at 1 p.m. The Lord is a very
real
presence and after all - He is the greatest
gift.
Merry Christmas to all from rainy
VA
From:
ShieldsFamily
We arent
having Christmas this year, due to having half of our belongings at
one house, and half at the other as we move. We never planned for
our new home to be finished right before Christmas! So, no tree or
decorations. No gifts. No food in the house. Just boxes and
pandemonium in the background as we carry on with more important things,
like my husband playing percussion for 8 pre-Christmas services,
etc. What little bit of family is here joined us for one of the
services the other night and then we, plus a few friends, went out to
dinner together afterwards.
I was not
expecting to wake up early this morning to look outside at a layer of
wet snow covering the ground and treesa perfect Christmas gift!
After hauling a couple of carloads of boxes to the new house we will
dine at the house of friends who always manage to be enormously
hospitable in their tiny little house. They have the biggest of hearts.
Then we will go together to see the movie Narnia. Christmas comes,
ready or not, and you dont need a tree or presents. Its all
about Him. Have a blessed one!
iz
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
RE: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Please let us know what you think of Narnia. Have a blessed Christmas. Narnia was delightful. Did you know that it was co-produced by one of his two step-sons, who he raised after his wife, Joy, passed away? Iz SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/movies/249776_narnia26.html C.S. Lewis' stepson guards 'Narnia' magic and truth Saturday, November 26, 2005 By JOHN FLESHER THE ASSOCIATED PRESS PETOSKEY, Mich. -- He may have the image of a dour, cloistered Oxford don with little knowledge of ordinary struggles. But C.S. Lewis, who wrote of epic struggles between good and evil in the imaginary land of Narnia, actually had a humorous side, his stepson says. Douglas Gresham, 60, is co-producer of the film adaptation of The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, which opens Dec. 9. His biography of Lewis, Jack's Life, was published last month. (Friends knew Clive Staples Lewis by his nickname, Jack.) He also helps oversee the Lewis estate and is unofficial guardian of his legacy, believing the man and his works are often misunderstood. He was a very funny man, very joyous, says Gresham, who spent the most formative decade of my life -- ages 8 to 18 -- in Lewis' company. Gresham recently spoke at the third annual C.S. Lewis Festival in this northern Michigan town, where schools, churches and community groups paid tribute to the beloved British author, scholar of medieval literature and Christian apologist. He said Lewis experienced war, career ups and downs, family troubles, love and heartbreak. A bachelor most of his life, he married Joy Gresham in his late 50s but lost her to cancer four years later. Grief-stricken, he cared for her two sons, Douglas and David, until his death in 1963. Their brief romance is portrayed -- touchingly but somewhat inaccurately, Gresham says -- in the film Shadowlands, starring Anthony Hopkins and Debra Winger. As The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe movie was developed, Gresham watched closely to make certain it faithfully represented the book and its underlying values. He's satisfied that director Andrew Adamson, who also directed the Shrek films, met the challenge. My job, I suppose, was as resident Narnia guru, to make sure everything Narnian was Narnian in the film, to make sure there weren't anachronisms and incongruities, Gresham says. But to be honest with you, the team that we have had on this film has been so good that there's been very little that I've had to complain about. For the uninitiated, Narnia is a magical world populated by talking animals and mythical creatures such as centaurs, dwarves and fauns. The story, published in 1950, tells of four English siblings -- Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lucy -- sent to live in an old country house to escape the London bombings during World War II. They stumble into Narnia through a walk-in wardrobe and help overthrow a tyrannical white witch, whose spells have turned innocent victims to stone and frozen the landscape in perpetual winter. The seven-part Narnia series has enthralled generations of young readers; nearly 100 million books have been sold. As adventure stories, their appeal is universal. But many regard them as Christian allegories and the heroic lion, Aslan, as a symbol of Jesus. Some commentators have speculated that Hollywood would water down the religious themes. Others fear the film will veer the other way, becoming a proselytizing tool offensive to non-Christians. Gresham, wanting no part of America's culture wars, says some characters and events could be interpreted as Christians symbols. But Lewis didn't regard The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe as a Christian book, though his beliefs influenced the story -- as they did everything he wrote. Viewers can draw their own conclusions, Gresham says, but he promises the PG-rated film -- financed by Disney and Walden Media -- will provide wholesome entertainment. If you really want to approach this thing properly, don't go into the theater looking for symbolism. Let the magic of Narnia work itself on you. Look at yourself in relation to what's happening on the screen. If you were one of the characters, which one would you be? When we do that honestly, we usually find that we don't measure up very well. Aside from the Narnia chronicles, Lewis is best known for spiritual works such as Mere Christianity and The Screwtape Letters. An atheist in his youth, Lewis became an Anglican after his conversion. But he cared little for denominational creeds, focusing on beliefs he considered common to all Christians. The real message of 'Mere Christianity' is let's put all these divisions, dissentions and factions aside and get back to what Jesus taught, Gresham says in an interview, his deep voice tinged with the accent of Australia, where he lived for 25 years after Lewis' death. After his own spiritual epiphany, Gresham moved
RE: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Amen. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 4:31 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! Thanks for this Judy. I've noted an interesting dichotomy over the years:Some LIVE their faith while some TALK their faith. You, Judy, LIVE it. Praise God for you. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 25, 2005 13:01 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! Thanks for sharing Iz and I do pray that all goes smoothly with the move, Our daughter with the kids, dog, hamster, and rabbit arrived about midnightand she was up until the early hours getting their Christmas arranged for them. I am trusting the Lord that it will all come together for us. Right now they aregone to visit one of her school friends who is down with her family and we are here with the animals. I have the \turkey in the oven and will have to do the rest before they return. Thank you JD for reminding me that loving and supporting them is ministry in itself because although we had planned to go wedidn't make it to either of the two services this morning. Our little grandaughter with the Leukemia takes a lot of time although she is looking really healthy and is just as sweet as ever. She wears an insulin pump now and so has to have her BS checked all the time and if it is up they give her a bolus. Iz would know what that is. The chemo drug is what gave her the diabetes and they hope this will go away when she is finished with these drugs- Her hair has grown backcurly and is really cute although her Dr. said it will straighten out later. We are enjoying them but the house is in an uproar. When they arrived around midnight the dog weed in the kitchen and Jenna slipped on it and insisted on taking a bath so that's how it goes. Oh! the joy of having a young family. I was encouraged to hear Jenna report that she no longer considers Hilary Duff to be a Christian (she's the one who lies just a little bit). Our dinner is at 4 p.m. and the rest of the family will be here then. Our son and his wife went to the early service at Church at they were going to her mothers for dinner at 1 p.m. The Lord is a very real presence and after all - He is the greatest gift. Merry Christmas to all from rainy VA From: ShieldsFamily We arent having Christmas this year, due to having half of our belongings at one house, and half at the other as we move. We never planned for our new home to be finished right before Christmas! So, no tree or decorations. No gifts. No food in the house. Just boxes and pandemonium in the background as we carry on with more important things, like my husband playing percussion for 8 pre-Christmas services, etc. What little bit of family is here joined us for one of the services the other night and then we, plus a few friends, went out to dinner together afterwards. I was not expecting to wake up early this morning to look outside at a layer of wet snow covering the ground and treesa perfect Christmas gift! After hauling a couple of carloads of boxes to the new house we will dine at the house of friends who always manage to be enormously hospitable in their tiny little house. They have the biggest of hearts. Then we will go together to see the movie Narnia. Christmas comes, ready or not, and you dont need a tree or presents. Its all about Him. Have a blessed one! iz
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
David Miller wrote: ... a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. Dave Hansen wrote: When I suggested similar, it brought a lot of chastisement. Why do you suppose the difference? Context. I don't think you understand the value of the cross. You raised its issue from skepticism concerning what value the symbol had. I raised the issue from using this symbol to illustrate the victory that Jesus wrought in the cross. I see power in the cross. You see defeat. Is this not true? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
If deegan is still around, could he give us some material on the Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement for the sins of the world. Or Blaine or DH? I don't care who does it, but I would be interested in a full and authoritive report. The question DM ask's below -- I would like to see this answered as well. Also, have I stumbled onto something of a difficulty for our Mormon friends? To recap - The Mormon church believes the "apostate church" and the "first church" are two different things. Since the scriptures of the NT belong to the First Church and are not a part of the apostasy AND since the First Church is not the church repaired by God with "mormon " revelation, why is Mormon doctrineandchurch organization so different from what we read and know of the First Church and its scriptures? jf -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] David Miller wrote: ... a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. Dave Hansen wrote: When I suggested similar, it brought a lot of chastisement. Why do you suppose the difference? Context. I don't think you understand the value of the cross. You raised its issue from skepticism concerning what value the symbol had. I raised the issue from using this symbol to illustrate the victory that Jesus wrought in the cross. I see power in the cross. You see defeat. Is this not true? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." ( Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Please let us know what you think of Narnia. Have a blessed Christmas. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 25, 2005 08:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! We arent having Christmas this year, due to having half of our belongings at one house, and half at the other as we move. We never planned for our new home to be finished right before Christmas! So, no tree or decorations. No gifts. No food in the house. Just boxes and pandemonium in the background as we carry on with more important things, like my husband playing percussion for 8 pre-Christmas services, etc. What little bit of family is here joined us for one of the services the other night and then we, plus a few friends, went out to dinner together afterwards. I was not expecting to wake up early this morning to look outside at a layer of wet snow covering the ground and treesa perfect Christmas gift! After hauling a couple of carloads of boxes to the new house we will dine at the house of friends who always manage to be enormously hospitable in their tiny little house. They have the biggest of hearts. Then we will go together to see the movie Narnia. Christmas comes, ready or not, and you dont need a tree or presents. Its all about Him. Have a blessed one! iz
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
1.) Christ 2.) Mass I think we all know that "Christ" refers to God's Son Jesus. The word "Mass" comes from Old English mæsse, a modification of (assumed) Vulgar Latin messa from the Late Latin missa, literally meaning "dismissal"; as in at the end of a religious service. The Middle English Christemasse, comes from Old English Cristes mæsse, literally, Christ's mass - shortened to "Christ-mas". Meaning the "dismissal" or passing away of Christ; or more directly, the death of Christ. Those who understand a bit about the Catholic religion realize that the "Mass" always refers to the sacrificial death of Christ. The word "Christmas" comes from the Roman Catholic ritual. Folks walk around this time of year saying "Merry Christmas!" to each other. I wonder if it occurs to anyone they are saying "Merry Death of Christ." www.truthontheweb.org/NwsClpz/122405.htm- Maranatha
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Correction Marlin!! It ought to be spoken of as The Catholic Faith. It (the Catholic Faith) is no more 'religion' than that which YOU yourself practice. Do YOU, Marlin, practice 'religion'? - Original Message - From: Marlin halverson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 25, 2005 10:33 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! 1.) Christ 2.) Mass I think we all know that "Christ" refers to God's Son Jesus. The word "Mass" comes from Old English mæsse, a modification of (assumed) Vulgar Latin messa from the Late Latin missa, literally meaning "dismissal"; as in at the end of a religious service. The Middle English Christemasse, comes from Old English Cristes mæsse, literally, Christ's mass - shortened to "Christ-mas". Meaning the "dismissal" or passing away of Christ; or more directly, the death of Christ. Those who understand a bit about the Catholic religion realize that the "Mass" always refers to the sacrificial death of Christ. The word "Christmas" comes from the Roman Catholic ritual. Folks walk around this time of year saying "Merry Christmas!" to each other. I wonder if it occurs to anyone they are saying "Merry Death of Christ." www.truthontheweb.org/NwsClpz/122405.htm- Maranatha
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
I don't think so,Marlin. What some are saying is "Lets get drunk and make an ass of ourselves at the Christmas party". Some are saying, "Diamonds are forever". Others are saying, "More stuff will make me happy". Some kids will get way too much today. Others will get far too little. Very few will spend much of today celebrating the Gift God gave all mankind. Marlin halverson wrote: 1.) Christ 2.) Mass I think we all know that "Christ" refers to God's Son Jesus. The word "Mass" comes from Old English msse, a modification of (assumed) Vulgar Latin messa from the Late Latin missa, literally meaning "dismissal"; as in at the end of a religious service. The Middle English Christemasse, comes from Old English Cristes msse, literally, Christ's mass - shortened to "Christ-mas". Meaning the "dismissal" or passing away of Christ; or more directly, the death of Christ. Those who understand a bit about the Catholic religion realize that the "Mass" always refers to the sacrificial death of Christ. The word "Christmas" comes from the Roman Catholic ritual. Folks walk around this time of year saying "Merry Christmas!" to each other. I wonder if it occurs to anyone they are saying "Merry Death of Christ." www.truthontheweb.org/NwsClpz/122405.htm - Maranatha
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Hello Marlin. Christmas has a very different definition around our house. I am not one who cares about the history or even the etimology of words and events that have taken on definitions of their own. It is a blessed time of year. We think of and even celebrate the birth of Christ, knowing that His presense was all about emanuel. jd -- Original message -- From: "Marlin halverson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1.) Christ 2.) Mass I think we all know that "Christ" refers to God's Son Jesus. The word "Mass" comes from Old English mæsse, a modification of (assumed) Vulgar Latin messa from the Late Latin missa, literally meaning "dismissal"; as in at the end of a religious service. The Middle English Christemasse, comes from Old English Cristes mæsse, literally, Christ's mass - shortened to "Christ-mas". Meaning the "dismissal" or passing away of Christ; or more directly, the death of Christ.. Those who understand a bit about the Catholic religion realize that the "Mass" always refers to the sacrificial death of Christ. The word "Christmas" comes from the Roman Catholic ritual. Folks walk around this time of year saying "Merry Christmas!" to each other. I wonder if it occurs to anyone they are saying "Merry Death of Christ." www.truthontheweb.org/NwsClpz/122405.htm- Maranatha
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
I appreciate the distinction you have made between one's "faith" and one's "religion." The Bible does not speak very highly of religion except for that which is pure and undefiled before God. Thanks --Marlin - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! Correction Marlin!! It ought to be spoken of as The Catholic Faith. It (the Catholic Faith) is no more 'religion' than that which YOU yourself practice. Do YOU, Marlin, practice 'religion'?
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Thanks for sharing Iz and I do pray that all goes smoothly with the move, Our daughter with the kids, dog, hamster, and rabbit arrived about midnightand she was up until the early hours getting their Christmas arranged for them. I am trusting the Lord that it will all come together for us. Right now they aregone to visit one of her school friends who is down with her family and we are here with the animals. I have the \turkey in the oven and will have to do the rest before they return. Thank you JD for reminding me that loving and supporting them is ministry in itself because although we had planned to go wedidn't make it to either of the two services this morning. Our little grandaughter with the Leukemia takes a lot of time although she is looking really healthy and is just as sweet as ever. She wears an insulin pump now and so has to have her BS checked all the time and if it is up they give her a bolus. Iz would know what that is. The chemo drug is what gave her the diabetes and they hope this will go away when she is finished with these drugs- Her hair has grown backcurly and is really cute although her Dr. said it will straighten out later. We are enjoying them but the house is in an uproar. When they arrived around midnight the dog weed in the kitchen and Jenna slipped on it and insisted on taking a bath so that's how it goes. Oh! the joy of having a young family. I was encouraged to hear Jenna report that she no longer considers Hilary Duff to be a Christian (she's the one who lies just a little bit). Our dinner is at 4 p.m. and the rest of the family will be here then. Our son and his wife went to the early service at Church at they were going to her mothers for dinner at 1 p.m. The Lord is a very real presence and after all - He is the greatest gift. Merry Christmas to all from rainy VA From: ShieldsFamily We arent having Christmas this year, due to having half of our belongings at one house, and half at the other as we move. We never planned for our new home to be finished right before Christmas! So, no tree or decorations. No gifts. No food in the house. Just boxes and pandemonium in the background as we carry on with more important things, like my husband playing percussion for 8 pre-Christmas services, etc. What little bit of family is here joined us for one of the services the other night and then we, plus a few friends, went out to dinner together afterwards. I was not expecting to wake up early this morning to look outside at a layer of wet snow covering the ground and treesa perfect Christmas gift! After hauling a couple of carloads of boxes to the new house we will dine at the house of friends who always manage to be enormously hospitable in their tiny little house. They have the biggest of hearts. Then we will go together to see the movie Narnia. Christmas comes, ready or not, and you dont need a tree or presents. Its all about Him. Have a blessed one! iz
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
The Smithson kids are going to lead worhsip this evening at church. MaybeI can a picture or two of them and send them to the forum. Anyway -- you all have a great day. We have a very busy day planned from hee on out. G -- I am serious about the bat. My highest regards ar with all of you this day. John -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks for sharing Iz and I do pray that all goes smoothly with the move, Our daughter with the kids, dog, hamster, and rabbit arrived about midnightand she was up until the early hours getting their Christmas arranged for them. I am trusting the Lord that it will all come together for us. Right now they aregone to visit one of her school friends who is down with her family and we are here with the animals. I have the \turkey in the oven and will have to do the rest before they return. Thank you JD for reminding me that loving and supporting them is ministry in itself because although we had planned to go wedidn't make it to either of the two services this morning. Our little grandaughter with the Leukemia takes a lot of time although she is looking really healthy and is just as sweet as ever. She wears an insulin pump now and so has to have her BS checked all the time and if it is up they give her a bolus. Iz would know what that is. The chemo drug is what gave her the diabetes and they hope this will go away when she is finished with these drugs- Her hair has grown backcurly and is really cute although her Dr. said it will straighten out later. We are enjoying them but the house is in an uproar. When they arrived around midnight the dog weed in the kitchen and Jenna slipped on it and insisted on taking a bath so that's how it goes. Oh! the joy of having a young family. I was encouraged to hear Jenna report that she no longer considers Hilary Duff to be a Christian (she's the one who lies just a little bit). Our dinner is at 4 p.m. and the rest of the family will be here then. Our son and his wife went to the early service at Church at they were going to her mothers for dinner at 1 p.m. The Lord is a very real presence and after all - He is the greatest gift. Merry Christmas to all from rainy VA From: ShieldsFamily We arent having Christmas this year, due to having half of our belongings at one house, and half at the other as we move. We never planned for our new home to be finished right before Christmas! So, no tree or decorations. No gifts. No food in the house. Just boxes and pandemonium in the background as we carry on with more important things, like my husband playing percussion for 8 pre-Christmas services, etc. What little bit of family is here joined us for one of the services the other night and then we, plus a few friends, went out to dinner together afterwards. I was not expecting to wake up early this morning to look outside at a layer of wet snow covering the ground and treesa perfect Christmas gift! After hauling a couple of carloads of boxes to the new house we will dine at the house of friends who always manage to be enormously hospitable in their tiny little house. They have the biggest of hearts. Then we will go together to see the movie Narnia. Christmas comes, ready or not, and you dont need a tree or presents. Its all about Him. Have a blessed one! iz
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
Hi Marlin. Seeing what you have shared, you might like to hear that I preached in our community's Christmas parade this year as I did last year, carrying a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. I had more than 30 people behind me, each one of them carrying crosses too. I walked before them with a Truth Horn and reminded the thousands along the parade route that if it had not been for the cross and the death of Jesus Christ, there would be no Christmas. I urged them not to think of Santa Clauseor Jesus as a little cute baby in a manger, but to think about what Jesus was being born to do. He came with a purpose, to die for our sins, your sins and my sins. He was bruised for our iniquities, and the chastisement of our peace was upon him. Believe upon Jesus Christ today. Jesus is the reason for the season. Worship the Lord Jesus Christ today! Merry Christmas! It is a very Merry Christmas when we believe upon Jesus Christ and receive the forgiveness of our sins. Hallelujah! As I preached, the other cross bearers passed out tracts and Bibles. Yes, we should think about the death of Christ at Christmas time, because if it were not for the cross and the need for Jesus to be put to death, nobody would be celebrating Christmas today. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Marlin halverson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas! 1.) Christ 2.) Mass I think we all know that "Christ" refers to God's Son Jesus. The word "Mass" comes from Old English mæsse, a modification of (assumed) Vulgar Latin messa from the Late Latin missa, literally meaning "dismissal"; as in at the end of a religious service. The Middle English Christemasse, comes from Old English Cristes mæsse, literally, Christ's mass - shortened to "Christ-mas". Meaning the "dismissal" or passing away of Christ; or more directly, the death of Christ. Those who understand a bit about the Catholic religion realize that the "Mass" always refers to the sacrificial death of Christ. The word "Christmas" comes from the Roman Catholic ritual. Folks walk around this time of year saying "Merry Christmas!" to each other. I wonder if it occurs to anyone they are saying "Merry Death of Christ." www.truthontheweb.org/NwsClpz/122405.htm- Maranatha
Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!
DAVEH: When I suggested similar, it brought a lot of chastisement. Why do you suppose the difference? David Miller wrote: .a cross, the symbol of the death of Jesus the Christ. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
