Re: [TruthTalk] Merry Christmas!

[Dave]

the Mormon doctrine  (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement for the sins of the world. DAVEH:   As I understand it, the atonement took place in the Garden of Gethsemane, and was finalized (sealed, so to speak) by Jesus' death on the cross.     I'm certainly not an authority on this topic, nor am I probably able to explain the atonement in the authoritative detail you are requesting.   As I see it, Jesus suffered greatly in the Garden of Gethsemane.   Why?  I believe it was because he was bearing the burden of our sins at that time....in effect, taking upon himself our sins.  Such suffering caused him to bleed from his pores.  At the Last Supper, he explained to his Disciples that his blood would be shed...... [Mk 14:23] And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. [24] And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. ..........and this was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane shortly after the Last Supper.     The crucification itself brought him much pain and suffering as well, but interestingly the Bible makes no mention of him shedding blood on the cross until after his death, when his body was lanced with a spear.  I believe the pain he suffered on the cross was caused by the physical torture to which he was subjected by being nailed to that cross, and then hung there in a manner designed to bring great suffering and pain, in contrast to the pain he suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane which was caused by what I believe was the effect of taking our sins upon himself.   What do you believe brought enough pain to Jesus that it caused him to bleed from every pore in the Garden, John?     In order for the atonement to be functional......yikes, that is probably not the best word to describe it, but I cannot think of a more appropriate term at the moment...... for each of us, Jesus had to provide a way for us to be resurrected.  Without the resurrection, no atoning sacrifice would benefit those who are bound by (physical) death.  Jesus was the only person who could accomplish the resurrection, and for that to happen, he had to die.  The pain he suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane was not sufficient to bring death, but that which he experienced on the cross was more than adequate.  Nobody could kill Jesus had he not been willing to die.  Jesus had the power to call angels to his side to prevent his death there, but in lieu of that......the cross provided the means to bring about his physical death.     So, the cross was the tool used by Jesus' enemies to kill him.  He rose from the tomb on the 3rd day, which then made it possible for all to be resurrected.  This gift of grace was freely given to all mortals, who had inherited physical death from Adam.  Just as all who are born on this earth have no control (or option) as to whether or not they will die, Jesus overcame that obstacle for us.     Had we not been able to overcome physical death, the need for the atonement would have been a non-issue.    Since by virtue of the Lord's resurrection all will be resurrected, it then became possible for the atonement to be available for those who desire it.   And as I've mentioned before, those who desire to overcome spiritual death need only to accept and love the Lord by keeping his commandments.     Now the question becomes why do we need the atonement at all?  If all are to be resurrected, what advantage is there for an atonement?  That is where we need to consider the effect spiritual death has upon us.  As I've defined it before, spiritual death happens when we are separated from God.   Effectively, the further we are from the love of the Lord, the deeper in hell we reside, so to speak.  In order to overcome that form of hell (and there are several), those who love the Lord seek to become one with him.  To do that, we need to become perfect as God is perfect.  Since God is without sin, and we are sinners....that seems like an impossibility.  However, by virtue of the atonement of our Redeemer, those who accept Jesus as their Savior can have their sins remitted, and hence become perfect (complete) as God is perfect.....and become closer to and one with our Heavenly Father and Jesus.     As I suggested before, without the possibility of a resurrection, the atonement would be of little effect, as physical death would confine us to hell.     This explanation may be a bit brief, if not a little awkward......but I hope it answers your question, John.     have I stumbled onto something of a difficulty for our Mormon friends? DAVEH:  I don't see why you would think such, John.   Evidence of the apostasy was already showing itself at the time the NT was being written, as Acts 20 suggested.... [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock ..........and Paul affirmed in his epistle to the Galatians..... [1:6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: [7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. ...........and to the Corinthians..... [1:11] For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. .........So as I see it, the apostasy had already started in the NT times. why is Mormon doctrine and  church organization so different from what we read and know of the First Church and its scriptures? DAVEH:  It could be for several reasons.  First, your perspective of the Primitive Church may have changed as religion/theology evolved over the centuries.  For instance, the early Christians eschewed the cross, yet most religions readily embrace it today.     From our (LDS) perspective, having a living prophet allows the Lord to guide his Church in the direction he wishes it to go depending on the needs of the time.  I don't know if that makes sense to you, but to LDS folks it is very logical.   IOW....We believe that the Lord reveals such things as the 1978 revelation allowing black males to be allowed the priesthood because it was appropriate for that to happen at that time.  Without a prophet, such events could not occur.  The same thing happens with specific programs and organizations in the LDS Church.  Though such may not have existed in the Primitive Church, that does not mean that it should not occur in the latter-day Church, depending on what the Lord determines our needs to be.     [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   If deegan is still around,  could he give us some material on the Mormon doctrine  (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement for the sins of the world.   Or Blaine or DH?  I don't care who does it,  but I would be interested in a full and authoritive report.    The question DM ask's below  --  I would like to see this answered as well.     Also,  have I stumbled onto something of a difficulty for our Mormon friends?    To recap  ---------   The Mormon church believes the "apostate church" and the "first church" are two different things.   Since the scriptures of the NT belong to the First Church and are not a part of the apostasy AND since the First Church is not the church repaired by God with "mormon " revelation,   why is Mormon doctrine and  church organization  so different from what we read and know of the First Church and its scriptures?     jf           -------------- Original message -------------- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > David Miller wrote: > >> ... a cross, the symbol of the death of > >> Jesus the Christ. > > Dave Hansen wrote: > > When I suggested similar, it brought a lot of > > chastisement. Why do you suppose the difference? > > Context. I don't think you understand the value of the cross. You raised > its issue from skepticism concerning what value the symbol had. I raised > the issue from using this symbol to illustrate the victory that Jesus > wrought in the cross. I see power in the cross. You see defeat. Is this > not true? > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that yo u may know how > you ought to answer every man." ( Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend > who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and > he will be subscribed. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.