Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Just FYI - the ancestry of jBASE and the jBASE developers was Reality. Dave Bryant -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Lance J. Andersen Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 5:30 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In message 25013-46...@sneakemail.com, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes I'm not sure why you're emphasizing OLD. The MV implementation in Caché supports many versions of Pick plus the Prime nuances of U2. :-) I believe one would find the level of thoroughness corresponds to the size and value of the prospect audience - in other words, Universe apps might migrate faster than any other. jBase followed the Prime philosophy INFORMATION is Pick done right. I *think* Jim came from Prime. And like I tried to do with MaVerick, Jim took the done right attitude. I'm not surprised he appears to have taken a lot from Prime. I do not recall Jim working as part of the Prime INFORMATION team (which I was part of) at Prime while I was there . I worked there from 1983-1993 and was one of the original PI vars, Standard Data Systems prior to joining Prime. Perhaps he was there before at Prime or Devcom. Clif was Jim part of the group at Devcom with John Drumheller? -Lance Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Jim comes from the reality side of the fence! Ross Ferris Stamina Software Visage Better by Design! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Lance J. Andersen Sent: Saturday, 19 September 2009 7:30 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In message 25013-46...@sneakemail.com, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes I'm not sure why you're emphasizing OLD. The MV implementation in Caché supports many versions of Pick plus the Prime nuances of U2. :-) I believe one would find the level of thoroughness corresponds to the size and value of the prospect audience - in other words, Universe apps might migrate faster than any other. jBase followed the Prime philosophy INFORMATION is Pick done right. I *think* Jim came from Prime. And like I tried to do with MaVerick, Jim took the done right attitude. I'm not surprised he appears to have taken a lot from Prime. I do not recall Jim working as part of the Prime INFORMATION team (which I was part of) at Prime while I was there . I worked there from 1983-1993 and was one of the original PI vars, Standard Data Systems prior to joining Prime. Perhaps he was there before at Prime or Devcom. Clif was Jim part of the group at Devcom with John Drumheller? -Lance Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Not sure what the purpose of your email was, but please stick to facts 1) I did not say I knew Cache was a MV application. I indicated I was not sure (see below) However, I did go to their web site and they say they are/were a high level Application provider for various medical record applications. It appears that is their major source of income. Not sure why they developed Cache but it appears to be related heavily to te support their core application products (that make the big bucks). If their old core product was not MV they are just another company who has decided to feed off the old MV installed base. That is not necessary a bad thing, they may be a very good alternative, but it is what it is http://www.intersystems.com/healthshare/index.html P.S. In support of an older Pick client or ours that wanted to migrate to it, we are currently doing a conversion for that client to it. The conversion seems fairly easy and trouble free from an OLD version of Pick. 2) Jbase representatives when they originally approached me many, many, many years ago pretty much described the relationship between Temenos and Jbase just as I described it. The conglomerate that bought Jbase did so to insure that they had a platform that could run Temenos applications. This included IBM platforms not supported by Pick or whoever. Jbase did exist before they were bought out and does still exist. However it is a tool for corporate to save the value of their core Temenos applications that produces most of their income and allow their core application to run on huge IBM and other platforms that their Bank clients were insisting on. As a data base it is lunch money to corporate. P.S. It appears to be nice product with a lot of great features (I have no conversion experience) However, it is what it is. Frank E. Eperjesi Vice President Business Automation, Inc. (714) 998-6600 phone (714) 998-6170 Fax * * * * Internet Email Confidentiality Footer * * * * Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 6:03 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general From: Doug Chanco Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2? They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2 Actually a key difference here is the mindset of the people offering the products as well as the mindset of the target audience. Apple thinks on a daily basis about tools like iPhone. They market it to end-users who see obvious uses for the tools. They make it relatively easy for developers to create and deploy end-user solutions. But I have yet to see a single company express interest in deploying MV-served functionality through an iPhone (real apps, not browser), Blackberry, Android, or Palm, and even front-ending an app with Windows Mobile is still seen as something exotic. And we can do all of those today! While many MV people use the devices, the same people can't get their head around the benefits of making their own applications available on them. People deploying apps on devices don't think of their apps as MySQL apps or SQL Server apps, they're device apps, or just mobile access points to business software. Change the mindset of how your company thinks about its applications, to focus on the business offering, without the stigma of well, it's Pick so I can't use it with devices, and you'll be on a rocket toward success without relying on some new company to make it happen for you. From: Frank Eperjesi 2) Jbase ( I think Cache) are successful application software companies that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to save their investment. I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache has some nice new features. Part of that is incorrect. I hope I can summarize this properly. jBase International doesn't sell anything outside of the database and related options - it's not an application company. They are owned by mPower1, who also owns Temenos, who has a successful banking application built over a variant of jBase called T24. So it's their sibling that has the app. To my
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Cache has evolved from the old Mumps environment. This was a multidimensional flavor similar to PICK. Intersystems bought out all the flavours of mumps to form the company today. Mumps background was largely in health, so they are a major player in that industry. However they have a range of markets and are OEM as much as U2 is. I came upon cache being used for backing up student work at a private school, so it has a range of clients. As cache was already multivalue, they added the PICK flavor to their flavors just like flavors on UniVerse. What I like about Cache is that is provides competition in the Multivalue market. If Oracle had the same level of competitive providers as the mv world has, they would not have got away with their price tag for so long. David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Just to add a bit as I have done some development in Cache'... Cache' is the from MUMPS lineage... MUMPS to OpenM to Cache'... and does have pretty decent MV support. It has a steep learning curve (but has decent free e-learning and a free downloadable version), but has support for just about any language and development environment you can think of... You can run terminal sessions, Cache' server pages (.csp),as a SQL server, from Java with JDBC, .Net with managed objects, ODBC, a couple of scripting languages, as web services, MVBasic, procs, etc. I would recommend checking the http://www.intersystems.com/mv/index.html page ... some very good resources there for us MV people. Also see chapter 3 on the tech guide http://www.intersystems.com/cache/technology/techguide/cache_tech-guide_03.html#12 Oh, they are also are very VAR oriented, which for many of us is a plus. If you haven't checked out Cache' yet and are worried about getting your future, it wouldn't hurt to download and start playing. I do warn you that because it has so many options on how to get to your data, it can be a bit overwhelming with wondering what t do first. The e-learning is very good, and looking at the various options, I'd pick one and concentrate on that then venture out into others. Personally I love .Net (C#) and using Cache' Managed Objects and much of what I learned translated well into Entity Framework. Rob Robert F. Porter, MCSE, CCNA, ZCE Lead Sr. Programmer / Analyst Laboratory Information Services Ochsner Health System This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential information, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful. Frank Eperjesi frank_eperj...@baipro.com 9/18/2009 2:46 AM ( mailto:frank_eperj...@baipro.com ) ... 1) I did not say I knew Cache was a MV application. I indicated I was not sure (see below) However, I did go to their web site and they say they are/were a high level Application provider for various medical record applications. It appears that is their major source of income. ... ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
The one statement below that isn't the way I would say it at all is As cache was already multivalue, they added the PICK flavor to their flavors just like flavors on UniVerse. Their native data model is broader than MV, so they (Jim Idle of jBASE and many others) wrote MV to sit on top of the MUMPS model. They have a full implementation of the MV model, including MVBASIC and query language, so that applications can be migrated quite handily (they provide considerable assistance) and maintained that way. They have the best and best performing SQL implementation against MV of any MV platform, I'm pretty sure. They also enhanced MVBASIC for objects so you can do such things as server-side DOM manipulation, with the web page as an object, for example. You can then also treat files as classes and records as objects. But MV was not added as another flavor of MUMPS, but as another data model and associated languages supported within their database engine. That's how I see it, at least. --dawn On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:39 AM, David Jordan da...@dacono.com.au wrote: Cache has evolved from the old Mumps environment. This was a multidimensional flavor similar to PICK. Intersystems bought out all the flavours of mumps to form the company today. Mumps background was largely in health, so they are a major player in that industry. However they have a range of markets and are OEM as much as U2 is. I came upon cache being used for backing up student work at a private school, so it has a range of clients. As cache was already multivalue, they added the PICK flavor to their flavors just like flavors on UniVerse. What I like about Cache is that is provides competition in the Multivalue market. If Oracle had the same level of competitive providers as the mv world has, they would not have got away with their price tag for so long. David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Take and give some delight today ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Dawn Wolthuis wrote: The one statement below that isn't the way I would say it at all is What I like about Cache is that is provides competition in the Multivalue market. If Oracle had the same level of competitive providers as the mv world has, they would not have got away with their price tag for so long. I have to disagree with this statement. There are many RDMS providers out there with very large revenue streams. And if you count Open Source implementations such as MySQL or PostgreSQL you have quite a large playing field (and there are other Open Source RDBMs, just MySQL and PostgreSQL have the lion's share). The revenue generated from the MV databases has never come close to Oracle, Sybase, DB2, MS SQL Server. There are many reasons for this, but to say that MV market has more competitive providers is not true and certainly the revenue has never come close to the traditional RDBMs products. David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
I should point out, that the comment I was referring to was not from Dawn, I just did a bad cut trying to streamline the message. Sorry Dawn. Lance J. Andersen wrote: Dawn Wolthuis wrote: The one statement below that isn't the way I would say it at all is What I like about Cache is that is provides competition in the Multivalue market. If Oracle had the same level of competitive providers as the mv world has, they would not have got away with their price tag for so long. I have to disagree with this statement. There are many RDMS providers out there with very large revenue streams. And if you count Open Source implementations such as MySQL or PostgreSQL you have quite a large playing field (and there are other Open Source RDBMs, just MySQL and PostgreSQL have the lion's share). The revenue generated from the MV databases has never come close to Oracle, Sybase, DB2, MS SQL Server. There are many reasons for this, but to say that MV market has more competitive providers is not true and certainly the revenue has never come close to the traditional RDBMs products. David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
ground-breaking iPod You have succumbed to apple marketing, people think they invented the gui or windows - both wrong - people now think they invented mp3 players - i still have a tiny 256meg mpg player with an oled screen that i bought a couple of years before apple entered with the ipod. I have met people who think the iphone is the first ever phone with a proper web browser - in fact the advert in the uk hinted at this, and was subsequently banned for being inaccurate. Apple are one of my gripes they invent nothing but marketing ! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glen Batchelor Sent: 17 September 2009 22:50 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general The iPhone was a progression of proprietary touch technology and combined supporting technologies and software (stemming from the original ground-breaking iPod through to the iTouch/iPhone) that did not exist with other mobile multi-media or cellular phone products. Other makers have been trying to catch up with their versions of Apple's mobile products, but they're just not in the same league. It wasn't _just_ marketing that has made iPhone popular. The overall design and execution of the technology progression was planned very well. Can you say the same for any MV database? Apple has had a long-term (and huge) client following for many of their hardware devices and software applications. Many facets of the iPhone including interface design and app design and deployment venues contributed to the fast growth. It's not just a smart phone with web toys on it. It's a business sales channel with access to many markets. It will change the way business is being done, even more so than the Palm and Blackberry. Suggesting that marketing can help U2 grow the way the iPhone has is just absurd. Sure, we need marketing help in general but what has been said before is still true; people don't buy databases, they buy solutions. The iPhone is a solution (which runs SQLite for the apps BTW). Write an application for the iPhone that talks to U2 and sell it if you want to broaden the horizon. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not paying $800 for a used MacBook just to try a market idea out. :) I got twin toddlers to feed and bills to pay!! Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Chanco Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:14 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2? They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2 Dougc -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Frank Eperjesi Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:53 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of there). Also I have no history with them A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing one or more of these things .: 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing nothing to attract new users. IBM falls into the 2nd category. 2) Jbase ( I think Cache) are successful application software companies that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to save their investment. I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache has some nice new features. My company (BAI) is one of the dwindling software providers still bringing in fresh meat to the table. Up to now just saying U2 was part of IBM made a HUGE difference. The original Unidata name was not a good as saying we were an IBM database but their name and support material were very good. As good a Rocket may be, not sure saying we are running on a data base from a company called rocketsoftware will be any help in selling to our prospect base. Unlike IBM we will have to sell RocketSoftware viability as well as our applications. Unless Rocket comes up with a super marketing effort, things just got a lot harder for us. Frank E. Eperjesi Vice President Business Automation, Inc. (714) 998-6600 phone (714) 998-6170 Fax
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
You got to admit, they are good at whatever it is they do... LOL -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:37 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general ground-breaking iPod You have succumbed to apple marketing, people think they invented the gui or windows - both wrong - people now think they invented mp3 players - i still have a tiny 256meg mpg player with an oled screen that i bought a couple of years before apple entered with the ipod. I have met people who think the iphone is the first ever phone with a proper web browser - in fact the advert in the uk hinted at this, and was subsequently banned for being inaccurate. Apple are one of my gripes they invent nothing but marketing ! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glen Batchelor Sent: 17 September 2009 22:50 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general The iPhone was a progression of proprietary touch technology and combined supporting technologies and software (stemming from the original ground-breaking iPod through to the iTouch/iPhone) that did not exist with other mobile multi-media or cellular phone products. Other makers have been trying to catch up with their versions of Apple's mobile products, but they're just not in the same league. It wasn't _just_ marketing that has made iPhone popular. The overall design and execution of the technology progression was planned very well. Can you say the same for any MV database? Apple has had a long-term (and huge) client following for many of their hardware devices and software applications. Many facets of the iPhone including interface design and app design and deployment venues contributed to the fast growth. It's not just a smart phone with web toys on it. It's a business sales channel with access to many markets. It will change the way business is being done, even more so than the Palm and Blackberry. Suggesting that marketing can help U2 grow the way the iPhone has is just absurd. Sure, we need marketing help in general but what has been said before is still true; people don't buy databases, they buy solutions. The iPhone is a solution (which runs SQLite for the apps BTW). Write an application for the iPhone that talks to U2 and sell it if you want to broaden the horizon. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not paying $800 for a used MacBook just to try a market idea out. :) I got twin toddlers to feed and bills to pay!! Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Chanco Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:14 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2? They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2 Dougc -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Frank Eperjesi Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:53 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of there). Also I have no history with them A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing one or more of these things .: 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing nothing to attract new users. IBM falls into the 2nd category. 2) Jbase ( I think Cache) are successful application software companies that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to save their investment. I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache has some nice new features. My company (BAI) is one of the dwindling software providers still bringing in fresh meat to the table. Up to now just saying U2 was part of IBM made a HUGE difference. The original Unidata name was not a good as saying we were an IBM database but their name and support material were very good. As good a Rocket may be, not sure saying we are running on a data base from a company called rocketsoftware will be any help in selling
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
AMEN! (but I still love my iPhone :-/) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 1:37 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general ground-breaking iPod You have succumbed to apple marketing, people think they invented the gui or windows - both wrong - people now think they invented mp3 players - i still have a tiny 256meg mpg player with an oled screen that i bought a couple of years before apple entered with the ipod. I have met people who think the iphone is the first ever phone with a proper web browser - in fact the advert in the uk hinted at this, and was subsequently banned for being inaccurate. Apple are one of my gripes they invent nothing but marketing ! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glen Batchelor Sent: 17 September 2009 22:50 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general The iPhone was a progression of proprietary touch technology and combined supporting technologies and software (stemming from the original ground-breaking iPod through to the iTouch/iPhone) that did not exist with other mobile multi-media or cellular phone products. Other makers have been trying to catch up with their versions of Apple's mobile products, but they're just not in the same league. It wasn't _just_ marketing that has made iPhone popular. The overall design and execution of the technology progression was planned very well. Can you say the same for any MV database? Apple has had a long-term (and huge) client following for many of their hardware devices and software applications. Many facets of the iPhone including interface design and app design and deployment venues contributed to the fast growth. It's not just a smart phone with web toys on it. It's a business sales channel with access to many markets. It will change the way business is being done, even more so than the Palm and Blackberry. Suggesting that marketing can help U2 grow the way the iPhone has is just absurd. Sure, we need marketing help in general but what has been said before is still true; people don't buy databases, they buy solutions. The iPhone is a solution (which runs SQLite for the apps BTW). Write an application for the iPhone that talks to U2 and sell it if you want to broaden the horizon. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not paying $800 for a used MacBook just to try a market idea out. :) I got twin toddlers to feed and bills to pay!! Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Chanco Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:14 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2? They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2 Dougc -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Frank Eperjesi Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:53 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of there). Also I have no history with them A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing one or more of these things .: 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing nothing to attract new users. IBM falls into the 2nd category. 2) Jbase ( I think Cache) are successful application software companies that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to save their investment. I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache has some nice new features. My company (BAI) is one of the dwindling software providers still bringing in fresh meat to the table. Up to now just saying U2 was part of IBM made a HUGE difference. The original Unidata name was not a good as saying we were an IBM database but their name and support material were very good. As good a Rocket may be, not sure saying we are running on a data base from a company called rocketsoftware will be any help in selling to our prospect base
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
In message 8b8d8a92acaa5b45986c590ff22600ce023ea...@bai-sbs.baisbs.local, Frank Eperjesi frank_eperj...@baipro.com writes Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of there). Also I have no history with them A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing one or more of these things .: 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing nothing to attract new users. IBM falls into the 2nd category. 2) Jbase ( I think Cache) are successful application software companies that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to save their investment. I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache has some nice new features. Just to niggle (a BIG niggle), what you say of Cache might be true, but it's NOT true of jBase. jBase was written - like INFORMATION - to be a MV done right, for whatever value the people involved thought was right. Cache is the old MUMPS, and actually hired one of the people who wrote jBase (Jim Idle) to write their MV personality. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman pi...@thewolery.demon.co.uk 'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998 Visit the MaVerick web-site - http://www.maverick-dbms.org Open Source Pick ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
In message 8b8d8a92acaa5b45986c590ff22600ce023ea...@bai-sbs.baisbs.local, Frank Eperjesi frank_eperj...@baipro.com writes Not sure what the purpose of your email was, but please stick to facts I don't mean to be rude, but it would help if you did a little investigation about your facts too. 1) I did not say I knew Cache was a MV application. I indicated I was not sure (see below) However, I did go to their web site and they say they are/were a high level Application provider for various medical record applications. It appears that is their major source of income. It isn't. It has an MV compatibility layer. Not sure why they developed Cache but it appears to be related heavily to te support their core application products (that make the big bucks). If their old core product was not MV they are just another company who has decided to feed off the old MV installed base. That is not necessary a bad thing, they may be a very good alternative, but it is what it is Cache == MUMPS (which is contemporaneous with Pick, ie it first appeared in the 60s). Just as Pick Systems has morphed into Tiger Logic, but the basic Pick product still remains, so has MUMPS morphed into Cache, but it's still basically the same thing. http://www.intersystems.com/healthshare/index.html P.S. In support of an older Pick client or ours that wanted to migrate to it, we are currently doing a conversion for that client to it. The conversion seems fairly easy and trouble free from an OLD version of Pick. 2) Jbase representatives when they originally approached me many, many, many years ago pretty much described the relationship between Temenos and Jbase just as I described it. The conglomerate that bought Jbase did so to insure that they had a platform that could run Temenos applications. This included IBM platforms not supported by Pick or whoever. Jbase did exist before they were bought out and does still exist. However it is a tool for corporate to save the value of their core Temenos applications that produces most of their income and allow their core application to run on huge IBM and other platforms that their Bank clients were insisting on. As a data base it is lunch money to corporate. P.S. It appears to be nice product with a lot of great features (I have no conversion experience) However, it is what it is. jBase presumably is a nice product (I have no experience of it). And as I said, the Cache MV layer was written by Jim Idle, co-author of jBase... Frank E. Eperjesi Vice President Business Automation, Inc. (714) 998-6600 phone (714) 998-6170 Fax Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman pi...@thewolery.demon.co.uk 'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998 Visit the MaVerick web-site - http://www.maverick-dbms.org Open Source Pick ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
In message 25013-46...@sneakemail.com, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes I'm not sure why you're emphasizing OLD. The MV implementation in Caché supports many versions of Pick plus the Prime nuances of U2. :-) I believe one would find the level of thoroughness corresponds to the size and value of the prospect audience - in other words, Universe apps might migrate faster than any other. jBase followed the Prime philosophy INFORMATION is Pick done right. I *think* Jim came from Prime. And like I tried to do with MaVerick, Jim took the done right attitude. I'm not surprised he appears to have taken a lot from Prime. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman pi...@thewolery.demon.co.uk 'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998 Visit the MaVerick web-site - http://www.maverick-dbms.org Open Source Pick ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Nope. I never suggested any of that. Please pick specific facts and counter them. Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:37 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general ground-breaking iPod You have succumbed to apple marketing, people think they invented the gui or windows - both wrong - people now think they invented mp3 players - i still have a tiny 256meg mpg player with an oled screen that i bought a couple of years before apple entered with the ipod. I have met people who think the iphone is the first ever phone with a proper web browser - in fact the advert in the uk hinted at this, and was subsequently banned for being inaccurate. Apple are one of my gripes they invent nothing but marketing ! -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glen Batchelor Sent: 17 September 2009 22:50 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general The iPhone was a progression of proprietary touch technology and combined supporting technologies and software (stemming from the original ground-breaking iPod through to the iTouch/iPhone) that did not exist with other mobile multi-media or cellular phone products. Other makers have been trying to catch up with their versions of Apple's mobile products, but they're just not in the same league. It wasn't _just_ marketing that has made iPhone popular. The overall design and execution of the technology progression was planned very well. Can you say the same for any MV database? Apple has had a long-term (and huge) client following for many of their hardware devices and software applications. Many facets of the iPhone including interface design and app design and deployment venues contributed to the fast growth. It's not just a smart phone with web toys on it. It's a business sales channel with access to many markets. It will change the way business is being done, even more so than the Palm and Blackberry. Suggesting that marketing can help U2 grow the way the iPhone has is just absurd. Sure, we need marketing help in general but what has been said before is still true; people don't buy databases, they buy solutions. The iPhone is a solution (which runs SQLite for the apps BTW). Write an application for the iPhone that talks to U2 and sell it if you want to broaden the horizon. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not paying $800 for a used MacBook just to try a market idea out. :) I got twin toddlers to feed and bills to pay!! Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Chanco Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:14 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2? They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2 Dougc -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Frank Eperjesi Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:53 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of there). Also I have no history with them A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing one or more of these things .: 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing nothing to attract new users. IBM falls into the 2nd category. 2) Jbase ( I think Cache) are successful application software companies that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to save their investment. I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache has some nice new features. My company (BAI) is one of the dwindling software
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In message 25013-46...@sneakemail.com, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes I'm not sure why you're emphasizing OLD. The MV implementation in Caché supports many versions of Pick plus the Prime nuances of U2. :-) I believe one would find the level of thoroughness corresponds to the size and value of the prospect audience - in other words, Universe apps might migrate faster than any other. jBase followed the Prime philosophy INFORMATION is Pick done right. I *think* Jim came from Prime. And like I tried to do with MaVerick, Jim took the done right attitude. I'm not surprised he appears to have taken a lot from Prime. I do not recall Jim working as part of the Prime INFORMATION team (which I was part of) at Prime while I was there . I worked there from 1983-1993 and was one of the original PI vars, Standard Data Systems prior to joining Prime. Perhaps he was there before at Prime or Devcom. Clif was Jim part of the group at Devcom with John Drumheller? -Lance Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2? They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2 Dougc -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Frank Eperjesi Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:53 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of there). Also I have no history with them A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing one or more of these things .: 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing nothing to attract new users. IBM falls into the 2nd category. 2) Jbase ( I think Cache) are successful application software companies that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to save their investment. I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache has some nice new features. My company (BAI) is one of the dwindling software providers still bringing in fresh meat to the table. Up to now just saying U2 was part of IBM made a HUGE difference. The original Unidata name was not a good as saying we were an IBM database but their name and support material were very good. As good a Rocket may be, not sure saying we are running on a data base from a company called rocketsoftware will be any help in selling to our prospect base. Unlike IBM we will have to sell RocketSoftware viability as well as our applications. Unless Rocket comes up with a super marketing effort, things just got a lot harder for us. Frank E. Eperjesi Vice President Business Automation, Inc. (714) 998-6600 phone (714) 998-6170 Fax * * * * Internet Email Confidentiality Footer * * * * Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Results Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:28 AM Mecki Foerthmann wrote: George, I think Dawn's emphasis was on survive, and that doesn't necessarily mean thrive. To my ears the Rocket business plan for legacy products sounds more like running a rest home for no longer wanted technology They keep it alive as long as there is a profit to be made from licence and support fees, and when that runs out they let it pass away.. The U2 products will survive OK, but all we're most likely going to get in future are maybe some patches but no new development. Nobody buys a business to kill it? Do hedgefonds managers know that too? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by SecureMail, and is believed to be clean. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
The iPhone was a progression of proprietary touch technology and combined supporting technologies and software (stemming from the original ground-breaking iPod through to the iTouch/iPhone) that did not exist with other mobile multi-media or cellular phone products. Other makers have been trying to catch up with their versions of Apple's mobile products, but they're just not in the same league. It wasn't _just_ marketing that has made iPhone popular. The overall design and execution of the technology progression was planned very well. Can you say the same for any MV database? Apple has had a long-term (and huge) client following for many of their hardware devices and software applications. Many facets of the iPhone including interface design and app design and deployment venues contributed to the fast growth. It's not just a smart phone with web toys on it. It's a business sales channel with access to many markets. It will change the way business is being done, even more so than the Palm and Blackberry. Suggesting that marketing can help U2 grow the way the iPhone has is just absurd. Sure, we need marketing help in general but what has been said before is still true; people don't buy databases, they buy solutions. The iPhone is a solution (which runs SQLite for the apps BTW). Write an application for the iPhone that talks to U2 and sell it if you want to broaden the horizon. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not paying $800 for a used MacBook just to try a market idea out. :) I got twin toddlers to feed and bills to pay!! Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Chanco Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:14 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2? They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2 Dougc -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Frank Eperjesi Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:53 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of there). Also I have no history with them A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing one or more of these things .: 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing nothing to attract new users. IBM falls into the 2nd category. 2) Jbase ( I think Cache) are successful application software companies that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to save their investment. I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache has some nice new features. My company (BAI) is one of the dwindling software providers still bringing in fresh meat to the table. Up to now just saying U2 was part of IBM made a HUGE difference. The original Unidata name was not a good as saying we were an IBM database but their name and support material were very good. As good a Rocket may be, not sure saying we are running on a data base from a company called rocketsoftware will be any help in selling to our prospect base. Unlike IBM we will have to sell RocketSoftware viability as well as our applications. Unless Rocket comes up with a super marketing effort, things just got a lot harder for us. Frank E. Eperjesi Vice President Business Automation, Inc. (714) 998-6600 phone (714) 998-6170 Fax * * * * Internet Email Confidentiality Footer * * * * Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
I can access MV data from my iPhone today. Sure, it's through the browser, but it's access nonetheless. -Kevin http://www.PrecisOnline.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
while I agree that marketing cannot totally save every product it sure can't hurt, I agree that saying we run on an IBM database sounds so much better than we run on a rocket database at least until rocket becomes (hopefully) a more well known company. To be perfectly honest my point was more of an attempt at humor than a this is the solution idea. I want U2 to succeed but the I have to agree with others that losing the IBM name (whehter you felt they were improving U2 or not) is a blow to thoes trying to sell a U2 solution And I have to slightly disagree with you about apple's marketing team, NEVER in the history of cell phones has there EVER ben a phone released where people stood in line for HOURS (20+) just to get a phone, not just because the iPhone had the app store or a touch screen or a web browser or visual voicemail, or the many other things it LACKED (prior to 3GS coming out) trust me I have had an iPhone since about day 200 and while I did not stand in line I was amazed that it took weeks before I could get an iPhone without having to wait hours. I do have mac book and I am actually working on a iPhone app (abeit not one that connects to U2), while I would love to do one (maybe tied to u2pipe) I want to wait and see how rocket universe/rocket U2 shakes out. I am very hopefully that rocket will take the ball and score a touchdown! dougc -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glen Batchelor Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:50 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general The iPhone was a progression of proprietary touch technology and combined supporting technologies and software (stemming from the original ground-breaking iPod through to the iTouch/iPhone) that did not exist with other mobile multi-media or cellular phone products. Other makers have been trying to catch up with their versions of Apple's mobile products, but they're just not in the same league. It wasn't _just_ marketing that has made iPhone popular. The overall design and execution of the technology progression was planned very well. Can you say the same for any MV database? Apple has had a long-term (and huge) client following for many of their hardware devices and software applications. Many facets of the iPhone including interface design and app design and deployment venues contributed to the fast growth. It's not just a smart phone with web toys on it. It's a business sales channel with access to many markets. It will change the way business is being done, even more so than the Palm and Blackberry. Suggesting that marketing can help U2 grow the way the iPhone has is just absurd. Sure, we need marketing help in general but what has been said before is still true; people don't buy databases, they buy solutions. The iPhone is a solution (which runs SQLite for the apps BTW). Write an application for the iPhone that talks to U2 and sell it if you want to broaden the horizon. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not paying $800 for a used MacBook just to try a market idea out. :) I got twin toddlers to feed and bills to pay!! Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com 2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Why can't we just stick with we make your problems go away? Technology is a commodity. People want solutions. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Cheater!! Don't you get tired of zooming and scrolling? A native app is better suited for complex web applications. Safari on the iPhone does an amazing job with typical web sites, but it's still a major pain to have to zoom and pan to type into fields all over the page. We're considering a mobile version of our site because of how cumbersome it is to use sites designed for 800 or larger screens. Anyway, this is getting way off-thread. Maybe we can debate this on the U2C list. I'm often on irc.freenode.net ##pick after 10pm ET(earlier or later depending on the girls) too. Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 6:29 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general I can access MV data from my iPhone today. Sure, it's through the browser, but it's access nonetheless. -Kevin http://www.PrecisOnline.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Like a matter/anti-matter conversion gun? What happens when the problem is the business procedures and the company still wants you to make it all better without changing processes? Flawed processes can not be fixed with software. The effects of their inefficiency can be reduced by streamlining other processes, but the original problems will persist. Being a non-mainstream software vendor, is it your/my/our position to tell a company how to run? How do the big guys get away with doing that and repeatedly run companies into the ground? They can buy SAP and it forces them to make process changes because they can't afford to rewrite half the code to make their business run the same as before. (I'm not saying SAP has efficient data entry processes... heh) We can make the software run the way they want it to, but that isn't always the best thing. There is a middle ground, but who has the clout to compete against the big boys in all three major areas. A trio of trusted business, software, and technology consulting is the key. I guess the scope of problems here is the problem with suggesting that we make your problems go away. Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 6:49 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general Why can't we just stick with we make your problems go away? Technology is a commodity. People want solutions. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
From: Doug Chanco Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2? They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2 Actually a key difference here is the mindset of the people offering the products as well as the mindset of the target audience. Apple thinks on a daily basis about tools like iPhone. They market it to end-users who see obvious uses for the tools. They make it relatively easy for developers to create and deploy end-user solutions. But I have yet to see a single company express interest in deploying MV-served functionality through an iPhone (real apps, not browser), Blackberry, Android, or Palm, and even front-ending an app with Windows Mobile is still seen as something exotic. And we can do all of those today! While many MV people use the devices, the same people can't get their head around the benefits of making their own applications available on them. People deploying apps on devices don't think of their apps as MySQL apps or SQL Server apps, they're device apps, or just mobile access points to business software. Change the mindset of how your company thinks about its applications, to focus on the business offering, without the stigma of well, it's Pick so I can't use it with devices, and you'll be on a rocket toward success without relying on some new company to make it happen for you. From: Frank Eperjesi 2) Jbase ( I think Cache) are successful application software companies that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to save their investment. I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache has some nice new features. Part of that is incorrect. I hope I can summarize this properly. jBase International doesn't sell anything outside of the database and related options - it's not an application company. They are owned by mPower1, who also owns Temenos, who has a successful banking application built over a variant of jBase called T24. So it's their sibling that has the app. To my knowledge jBase is and always has been purely about the DBMS. InterSystems (who produces Caché) is also fundamentally a DBMS company. They didn't add support for MV because they needed it for their own applications, but (I believe) because adding MV support allowed them to open their platform to an extensive base of MV end-users and resellers - errr, you guys. They already provide a world-class platform (with a Who's Who list of clientele to go with it) and they don't need MV. They built-in MV support (a choice, not a shotgun marriage) to facilitate porting a lot of applications to their platform, and of course new sales for those apps. If you're looking for another big name to associate with your offering, these guys have just bubbled to the top of the list. HTH Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
What do you mean just? For building a new app, they got to the top of my list a couple of years ago. Now that they (Cache') have a number of conversions from various mv platforms under their belts, this change in U2 ownership might prompt a few more folks to think about migrating, but for the most part, unless a U2 customer was already hurting, I don't see them jumping quickly. In other words, this is unlikely to prompt mass migrations [but we would be happy to have folks join us, of course, and I'm sure folks on other mv platforms are thinking the same right now]. --dawn On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com wrote: From: Doug Chanco Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2? They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2 Actually a key difference here is the mindset of the people offering the products as well as the mindset of the target audience. Apple thinks on a daily basis about tools like iPhone. They market it to end-users who see obvious uses for the tools. They make it relatively easy for developers to create and deploy end-user solutions. But I have yet to see a single company express interest in deploying MV-served functionality through an iPhone (real apps, not browser), Blackberry, Android, or Palm, and even front-ending an app with Windows Mobile is still seen as something exotic. And we can do all of those today! While many MV people use the devices, the same people can't get their head around the benefits of making their own applications available on them. People deploying apps on devices don't think of their apps as MySQL apps or SQL Server apps, they're device apps, or just mobile access points to business software. Change the mindset of how your company thinks about its applications, to focus on the business offering, without the stigma of well, it's Pick so I can't use it with devices, and you'll be on a rocket toward success without relying on some new company to make it happen for you. From: Frank Eperjesi 2) Jbase ( I think Cache) are successful application software companies that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to save their investment. I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache has some nice new features. Part of that is incorrect. I hope I can summarize this properly. jBase International doesn't sell anything outside of the database and related options - it's not an application company. They are owned by mPower1, who also owns Temenos, who has a successful banking application built over a variant of jBase called T24. So it's their sibling that has the app. To my knowledge jBase is and always has been purely about the DBMS. InterSystems (who produces Caché) is also fundamentally a DBMS company. They didn't add support for MV because they needed it for their own applications, but (I believe) because adding MV support allowed them to open their platform to an extensive base of MV end-users and resellers - errr, you guys. They already provide a world-class platform (with a Who's Who list of clientele to go with it) and they don't need MV. They built-in MV support (a choice, not a shotgun marriage) to facilitate porting a lot of applications to their platform, and of course new sales for those apps. If you're looking for another big name to associate with your offering, these guys have just bubbled to the top of the list. HTH Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Take and give some delight today ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
Glen A U2 application just threw SAP out of a site it can and is being done. I believe there is a case study available of it on the IBM U2 site. The CEO stated that SAP did not deliver for the cost and this U2 application did. I would challenge the consultants who recommended SAP to advice what homework they did and what products they compared. (Doubt if they did any.) Second ask what commissions and financial incentives did they receive for recommending SAP. Under worldwide governance legislation such as SOX, these are questions that have to be answered for due diligence. These guys get away with it, because no one challenges them. Like bullies, they often run away at the first challenge. Regards David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
