ddumont wrote:
This is not good behavior for a company who wishes to continue to gain
market share... you cannot apply this type of behavior at will to all areas
of your distribution without SEVERELY pissing most of your userbase off.
I'm afraid this argument, ddumont, is going to fall pretty
I have to agree here. What will happen to programms like pidgin or
Skype. Can we not send them to the notification area any more? That
would be really disappointing. What other place will there be to have a
permanent place of putting apps that run in the background, if you
ultimately remove the
Chauncellor: Ayatana is about cross-application design for Ubuntu in
general, not just notifications. There is no plan for it ever to be
finished. On cleaning up Preferences/Administration, I entirely agree:
if you can help out, http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/19982 and
I don't know if this is the proper place to post this. I've done a mockup of
what I think could be an idea for persistent notifications requiring user
action. As with all other user actions, it would be in the Menu, where
the System option would become highlighted. A new option in the menu
would
Leandro: This looks nice but only works if you have a SYSTEM menu. UNR
users don't and users who remove or move this menu (as I have on a
notebook) will not see the notification indication.
Walt
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Leandro, based on previous comments (e.g., around #132, etc.), I'd
suggest
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotificationDesignGuidelines/Comments
as a good place for your mockups.
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945
You
Il giorno gio, 04/06/2009 alle 14.41 +, Matthew Paul Thomas ha
scritto:
yurx cherio: People had already been trying to find an effective icon
for years, from one that looked like a cigarette packet (Ubuntu 5.04)
to
a red pinwheel (5.10) to an orange square (6.06, 6.10, 7.04, 7.10) to
MPT: Oh, goodie! Looks like we have a winner here. I'll be voting that
idea up I hope it's implemented soon, it's exactly what I was
thinking about!
May I ask what the end result of the notification area is, then? It
seems like the goal is ultimately to completely remove the notification
Il giorno mer, 03/06/2009 alle 19.36 +, mb_webguy ha scritto:
This one, however, was -- in
many users' opinions -- for the worse, and the response to negative
user
feedback on this issue has made it seem as if the developers are
determinedly ignoring it.
No the feedback has not been
Il giorno mar, 02/06/2009 alle 15.30 +, braddock ha scritto:
What happened to the wide-spread usability principle that modal
dialogs
(aka, an unwanted update window) are BAD?
\begin{acid*}
It has been argued (in my opinion, very imprecisely) that no system can
go on without
I think it's rather communistic of those responsible for this change to
impose their personal preference on everybody. Ubuntu is for me not like
Facebook, where changes to the interface and function happen over the
heads of the community.
They could have implemented an option in the Updates
On Wed, 2009-06-03 at 13:55 +, Toralv wrote:
I think it's rather communistic of those responsible for this change to
impose their personal preference on everybody.
Hrm. You don't seem to understand the concept of communism and are
making the common mistake of calling what you characterize
True. I believe the correct term would be fascism; but we are getting
way off topic.
FWIW, I noticed that the behavior of the update window seems to have
changed since I first installed Jaunty. Instead of opening as a
popup/popunder, it is opening minimized in my task panel. Though this is
not as
Well Toralv is probably thinking communist in terms of
Leninism or Stalinism, which were indeed oppressive totalitarian forms
of communism. And Toralv, the developers make changes like this quite
often, typically after much discussion, and based on input from users.
Most of these changes
What happened to the wide-spread usability principle that modal dialogs
(aka, an unwanted update window) are BAD?
The notification area IS an abused swamp (Shuttleworth's words) IN
WINDOWS, where every vendor shoves their logo in your face.
But it is NOT a swamp UNDER UBUNTU. I have only five
braddock speaks the truth in my head. Windows is the victim of a swamped
up notification area, not Ubuntu. Look at any Windows machine I have
touched, and you'll find msconfig in the last RUN box entry because
I'm constantly battling all those damned startup applications that just
clog, clog, clog
it feels good as it is now, maybe this will improved with ubuntu apps
center implementation
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/332945
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is
Interestingly, the client of the Canonical's recently released UbuntuOne
service puts a persistent applet icon in the notification area:
https://ubuntuone.com/support/installation/
o_O
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
On Mon, 2009-05-11 at 22:19 +, Ricardo Pérez López wrote:
Interestingly, the client of the Canonical's recently released UbuntuOne
service puts a persistent applet icon in the notification area:
https://ubuntuone.com/support/installation/
Well, I don't see any evidence there one way or
Jonathan Marsden wrote:
I'm slightly bewildered that so many here apparently feel that bothering
to read the Jaunty Release Notes and doing what they suggest, to restore
the old approach, is impossibly difficult... or something?
I'm pretty sure most of us are aware of how to bring back the old
I believe as a bottom line everyone agrees that if a user sets the
checkbox to check for updates then the user expects to be notified (one
way or another) about the new available updates. If I set it as
automatic I shouldn't go and do it manually.
Icon in the tray is appropriate when I say so by
I'm slightly bewildered that so many here apparently feel that bothering
to read the Jaunty Release Notes and doing what they suggest, to restore
the old approach, is impossibly difficult... or something?
At
We all know the command, thank you, its even in the first post, and yes we all
know that we can execute the command.
What you fail to see here is , that this is unsuppoprted and therefor may or
may not continue to be valid in the next release.
We are simply discussing the stupidity of the new
Jonathan Marsden wrote:
I'm slightly bewildered that so many here apparently feel that bothering
to read the Jaunty Release Notes and doing what they suggest, to restore
the old approach, is impossibly difficult... or something?
As _dan_ said, we're all very aware of the fix. I'd say most of
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
mac_v: A notification that a window has popped up? You mean something
like this screenshot? That's how Mac OS 9 did it a decade ago. Its main
problem was that there was no direct way to get from the notification to
the actual window, violating the principle of direct
I want to add an additional point: Not all computers are connected to the
internet all the time. Thus, imagine
someone that connects to internet, the system finds out that there are updates
available, and then the
internet conection is closed for, lets say 1 month. What will this user
bdoe wrote:
I don't see how this could have ever been considered broken to begin with.
+1 to this.
It's a *notification area*. Granted there are apps which populate it
that shouldn't, but how in FSM's name is the *update-notifier* as it was
configured in 8,10 previous one of them?
And popups?
Paulo J. S. Silva :
About updates in the indicator applet: I've been working on a proof-of-
concept that does just that. It currently implements indicator messages
for updates and needing to reboot.
You can find it at http://earth.gkhs.net/ccooke/indicator/
Note that this is only intended to be
C. Cooke wrote:
Paulo J. S. Silva :
About updates in the indicator applet: I've been working on a proof-of-
concept that does just that. It currently implements indicator messages
for updates and needing to reboot.
You can find it at http://earth.gkhs.net/ccooke/indicator/
Note that
mac_v:
Ah, I should update that screenshot. The list of updates is generated by a
modified version of apt-check, a python script included with update-notifier.
The modification is now able to associate each updated package with an
installed metapackage (such as 'ubuntu-desktop',
Maybe that mechanism needs a more prominent presentation, but that
should really be a separate discussion.
While you're having that discussion, my systems are missing updates for
days or weeks.
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
** Description changed:
I am referring to the removal up the update-notifier in the Gnome
notification area. The discussion of it is embedded in the thread
headed by:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-
devel/2009-February/027416.html
Specific messages worth reading
Matthew Paul Thomas said:
For example, I'm at a loss to understand why you think a notification bubble
timed to appear periodically above everything else would be less annoying
than a window that opens once and then sits in the background until you deal
with it.
For several reasons... A
wb_guy,
I believe there that main use of the notification area is to keep
minimized applications that may allow some kind of interaction without
opening a full blown window: a media player that allows you to skip the
current music or pause, network manager that allow you to turn off the
network,
Paulo J. S. Silva:
That is indeed how the notification area is currently used, an is also,
I believe, why the developers believe it to be broken. That's not what
it was intended to do. My argument is that just because something is
abused, it doesn't mean it's no longer appropriate for it's
Yes. I remember reading Mr. Shuttleworth speaking of possibly removing
one of the two panels sometime. I'm all for simplicity, but there is
such a thing as OVER-simplicity. I believe Mac is the perfect example of
that. The OS is designed to be SO simple and SO clean that navigating it
is a huge
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
bdoe: If you are still having this problem, I suggest subscribing to the
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn feed, and then reporting a bug the next time
a package you have installed shows up there without Update Manager
opening within a day. We'd take that very seriously.
I'm
in one of my systems, i have 10 desktops, and the update manager opens
on one of them. which one? not sure how that is determined. sometimes
it is opened on a desktop i haven't used in a while, or won't use in a
while. so i don't see the update notification for potentially a long
period. what
On Mon, 2009-05-04 at 16:12 +, scar wrote:
open the update manager on
all desktops at least
Oh yeah, that's much better. Annoying * $number_of_desktops. Talk
about getting right in somebody's face.
Surely it's obvious by now that this was a very ill-thought out
decision. I've said
Hi,
Long thread. After reading it and trying to get informed about the new
notification system I have come to the conclusion that there is a
natural solution for this in the new framework: the indicator-applet.
Here is its description:
A small applet to display information from various
My problems with that solution, Paulo J. S. Silva, are that A) you're
essentially just replacing the notification area with the indicator
applet, and B) messages in the indicator applet aren't as visible and
therefore are more likely to go unnoticed than the regular notification
area icon. From
I agree with mb_webguy.
The new indicator-applet seems to be created to replace the notification area.
Currently it only displays Pidgin's notifications (at least for me).
The problem with this approach is that the indicator applet is good only if it
displays the notifications coming from a
mac_v: A notification that a window has popped up? You mean something
like this screenshot? That's how Mac OS 9 did it a decade ago. Its main
problem was that there was no direct way to get from the notification to
the actual window, violating the principle of direct manipulation; and
the same
MPT: Thanks for keeping me in check. I did a search through all Mark
Shuttleworth posts and notice that he did, in fact, post here quite a
bit. My apologies, I was under the impression that he only posted twice
before he changed the status.
That said, I will state that I can definitely understand
Uwe Schilling wrote:
Well, it need not be a ticker, it need not be animated,Or it could be
animated by default and there is an option to turn off the animation. Or
the ticker is moving through just once and then stays still until the
mouse hovers over it, or ... I basically just wanted to
Howdy,
I was ignoring this behavior on my Jaunty systems at first. I thought it was
a bug that would be fixed soon. I see others agreed that it was a bug, but it
does not look like it will be fixed. So, I have been thinking about what to do.
First, I have to say that I like the
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
bdoe: If there are security updates waiting in the archive and Update
Manager doesn't open within a day, please report a separate bug about
that. However -- and I apologize in advance if this affects your sleep
-- it has never been true that if there's no icon up
Well, it need not be a ticker, it need not be animated,Or it could be
animated by default and there is an option to turn off the animation. Or
the ticker is moving through just once and then stays still until the
mouse hovers over it, or ... I basically just wanted to suggest the
title bar of all
A ticker?.
Upgrade to the new Ubuntu Karmic Koala - Firefox Needs to be
restarted - Upgrade to the new Ubuntu Karmic Koala - Firefox Needs
to be restarted
No thank you. I personally don't see anything wrong with the icon in the
tray and the OSD notifier reminding a user of critical
There is NOTHING MORE ANNOYING, bar none, than having windows pop up
uncommanded.
how about turning a blind ear to a flood of unhappy comments? I'd
say that's more annoying by far...
--
[Jaunty] Update Notifier icon would provide useful status information
Also I would like to point out that if you make use of virtual desktops
feature
I have 9 desktops It very very easy to miss the pop up as on my machine it
shows on desktop one
while i tend work on other desktops and have firefox open on full screen on
desktop one.
just totally missing the
I wouldn't consider having to go through updates before shutdown much
better than what's happening now (though it is slightly still better).
Before long, Ubuntu is going to be known as the next-gen spamming OS, or
the ultimate Windows clone, or some other derogative phrase. I'd like to
keep my
According to live.gnome.org, we will se a new notification center in
Gnome 3 (2.30?!):
New Panel
The top panel will have the following major areas.
[...]
Notifications center containing a dropdown with a stack of recent
notifications and an indicator of how many new notifications there are
and
On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 17:00 +, Richard Thomas wrote:
Also I would like to point out that if you make use of virtual desktops
feature
I have 9 desktops It very very easy to miss the pop up as on my machine it
shows on desktop one
while i tend work on other desktops and have firefox
2009/5/1 Richard Thomas xpd...@gmail.com:
Also I would like to point out that if you make use of virtual desktops
feature
I have 9 desktops It very very easy to miss the pop up as on my machine it
shows on desktop one
while i tend work on other desktops and have firefox open on full screen
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
mb_webguy:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-February/027568.html
*Nothing* in that post justified the automatic opening of applications
without direct user action. *Every* example you named would best be
handled by some sort of transient or
Changing the way users are notified of important information is a noble
and worthwhile goal. I agree that a tiny icon can not convey much
useful information to the users. On the other hand, notifying users of
something with a pop-under window is far from ideal. Applications
should not run
MPT wrote:
Uwe Schilling: You basically restated my point -- assuming that people will see
a window that looks like the updates window, and behaves like the updates
window, but be able to tell that it's fake solely because it opened
automatically. I think that's quite unrealistic, because it
Uwe Schilling wrote:
My two cents: why not use the title bar of each window for notifications.
There, they could
be a form of a permanent notification, you can have scrolling text to really
let the user
know what the notification is all about and it something is moving up there
it will
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
Uwe Schilling: Update Manager doesn't ask for your password unless and until
you actually click Install Updates. So you would then be relying on people to
think Well, it's asking me for my password just like it usually does when I
click that button, but I won't enter
On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 17:56 +, mac_v wrote:
+1 .but the only thing would be to drop beneath in a few seconds * only
when the user is working * but *remain persistent until the users
returns to the system* and starts to work.
That seems a good idea. However, there are a couple use cases
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
+1 this is a very nice idea.
Also I like to state AGAIN: Why is choice such a big problem for you
design people, if you want to remove the icons from the notificaion area
by default, ok go ahead. But then give people who do like it the option
to
Peter Whittaker wrote:
Watching a full screen video, for example.
i dont think that full screen video/any video are a problem, since
gnome-screen saver recognizes when videos are playing, something similar
probably could be worked in for detection.
but the real problem will be with flash firefox
2009/4/30 Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com:
Matt Wheeler, LanoxxthShaddow: We removed the icon because we're trying
to reduce the number of items in the notification area, and update-
notifier was an easy one to start with because Notify OSD forced us to
solve the 'Click the icon'? What
I've refrained from the conversation thus far, because I wanted to read
through all of the comments first. But as someone interested in HCI,
this is an issue of particular interest to me, and I feel like I need to
add my opinion.
Applications should *never* open without explicit action by the
Is this still up for discussion, or are we expected to just eat this one
(in reference to the Confirmed - Won't Fix status)?
There is NOTHING MORE ANNOYING, bar none, than having windows pop up
uncommanded. Having windows open surreptitiously underneath everything
I'm doing is sneaky,
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas
m...@canonical.comwrote:
John Clemens: The issue of trying to guess when is the best time to
interrupt people is a tricky problem for notifications in general.
As getut pointed out, you're conflating interruption with notification.
The old behaviour is not restored for me .I only see the icon when i
manually run update manager.I have set gconf options , i have set auto
launch interval of update-notifier to 0 , everything.
Its been a week since i have seen the orange icon.
Wonder what they did to it.
--
[Jaunty] Update
Matt Wheeler, LanoxxthShaddow: We removed the icon because we're trying
to reduce the number of items in the notification area, and update-
notifier was an easy one to start with because Notify OSD forced us to
solve the 'Click the icon'? What icon? problem anyway.
hurga: I agree, I'd rather the
The issue of trying to guess when is the best time to interrupt people
is a tricky problem for notifications in general. Unfortunately,
never is not a viable choice for a mass-market OS on an Internet-
connected computer. If you have specific suggestions of heuristics we
could use to choose more
On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 15:49 +, getut wrote:
The issue of trying to guess when is the best time to interrupt people
MPT... never IS a perfectly valid answer to INTERRUPTING a user.
+1, mod parent up, etc.
At the risk of seeming like I am in love with my own ideas, this was why
I proposed
@Matthew:
there is a problem with this system, there is no notification of the updates
window being popped up, that is what is the surprise of finding a new window
that has popped up...
if pop up is going to be maintained, then the bare minimum would be to
the notify-osd repeatedly show a
I want to chime in that the popup behavior is completely irritating. It
also doesn't solve the problem it purports to solve regarding users
ignoring important updates. When it pops up in the middle of some
important task I just cuss and click the close button at which point
the update will
Peter Whittaker wrote:
On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 15:49 +, getut wrote:
The issue of trying to guess when is the best time to interrupt people
MPT... never IS a perfectly valid answer to INTERRUPTING a user.
+1, mod parent up, etc.
At the risk of seeming like I am in love with my own
It is sad to see, but I think this will not be the last big
dissapointment. Sure you can't satisfy all users at any time, but what
is claimed to be leadership here is the kind of spirit I wouldn't
expect from a linux distribution called Ubuntu. The next big hit will
probably be the replacement of
Self appointed benevolent dictator for life ;)
Torben wrote:
It is sad to see, but I think this will not be the last big
dissapointment. Sure you can't satisfy all users at any time, but what
is claimed to be leadership here is the kind of spirit I wouldn't
expect from a linux distribution
Jamin W. Collins: By gratuitously difficult I meant you had to (1)
notice the icon, (2) recall that orange starburst = updates available
(possibly assisted by a notification bubble, if you happened to look
during the time the bubble was visible), (3) click on it (the panel
icon, not the bubble!),
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
Jamin W. Collins: By gratuitously difficult I meant you had to (1)
notice the icon, (2) recall that orange starburst = updates available
(possibly assisted by a notification bubble, if you happened to look
during the time the bubble was visible), (3) click on it (the
@Matthew P. Thomas:
It seems you don't consider people having more than 5 windows open. I'm so used
to having a large number of windows that a new one will be left unnoticed for a
long time. I might even think I opened it at some point myself and just started
doing something else while the
I was initially opposed to this change as a default, but having spoken to a
friend who upgraded to Jaunty just after the release I am much happier about
the idea of testing it on 'the masses'.
My friend, who is quite technical (works in the IT department in a school),
said he preferred the new
adorable hm well i guess so, almost as adorable as defending an idea the
majority of people clearly does not want and still pushing it through
because of an attitude that smells i know better then you all,
therefore the spanking.
My Mother and my grandmother use Ubuntu (well i forced em too) and
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
Jamin W. Collins: By gratuitously difficult I meant you had to (1)
notice the icon, (2) recall that orange starburst = updates available
(possibly assisted by a notification bubble, if you happened to look
during the time the bubble was visible), (3) click on it (the
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
I have seen no evidence, in this bug report or anywhere
else, of the simple need for a form of persistent notification for
software updates.
have u considered that these update windows WONT GET NOTICED, when the
user is working in other windows and only noticed
Stanislaw Pitucha wrote:
2. (in case of us) Think - did I forget to close it after the last
upgrade, or was I waiting for package list update to finish, or is it
notifying me about new upgrades
so i'm not the only one this happened to me when i got the firefox
security update! when previously i
Matt Wheeler wrote:
My friend, who is quite technical (works in the IT department in a school),
said he preferred the new system because before he would just ignore the
orange icon (even though he knew what it meant).
quite technical but doesnt update? wow! and works in the IT department!
Plain and simple... linux is always about choice. People are not going
to update their system when the almighty and evil popup/popunder opens
and says they should do it. It will almost 100% of the time be an
unwanted annoyance window that open at unwanted times and aggravates
users instead of
Plain and simple... linux is always about choice. People are not going
to update their system when the almighty and evil popup/popunder opens
and says they should do it. It will almost 100% of the time be an
unwanted annoyance window that open at unwanted times and aggravates
users instead of
getut wrote:
Can anyone give a definite answer on how long the gconf command to
revert to old behavior will be supported going forward?
AFAIK, the gconf method is currently not *supported*. It does work but
it is not a *supported* option. So, I believe we have our answer.
--
[Jaunty]
2009/4/29 mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com:
Matt Wheeler wrote:
My friend, who is quite technical (works in the IT department in a school),
said he preferred the new system because before he would just ignore the
orange icon (even though he knew what it meant).
quite technical but doesnt update?
Stanislaw Pitucha: Yes, I have seen non tech-savvy users working with
their computers. For five years, I worked in Internet cafés. And this
year, we've started user testing of Ubuntu at Canonical. So I'm quite
confident in saying that most people ignore the notification area
altogether.
@Matthew Paul Thomas
I do agree that the bug tracker is biased towards people not in favor of this
change.
Anyhow you are arguing a position here which holds no advantage over the old
one and only creates discomfort and needs people to readjust and we all know
the human being is a creature of
On Apr 29, 2009 10:10am, Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org wrote
He doesn't teach, but that is irrelevant, and confirms my point. If even
IT staff are ignoring updates unless they are prompted by a window
opening, how many normal users are doing the same?
Unlike mac_v, I will not disparage your
With logic like John Clemens writes above I can't believe MPT is arguing
some of the points that are being argued.
I'm beginning to think this is just a really long lasting aprils fools
joke. The points MPT is making are so fundamentally flawed it can't be
anything but that.
Are you really
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
mac_v: As I explained in the very text you quoted, we are not creating
such security holes: that problem already exists, regardless of Update
Manager. As for your food analogy, you are confusing perfect with
better. We switched to Notify OSD, with the necessary
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
Uwe Schilling, Thomas Nardone: As I have already explained several
times, this is far from the only time programs need to open windows
unprompted; and conversely, even with a browser blocking popup windows,
a determined Web site author can still open popup windows or
hurga wrote:
manager window means, so nothing gained.
Put the issue up for a vote, where the majority of ubuntu users can vote
and don't decide over peoples head.
@hurga
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/19283/
this voting has already been going on regarding this notifier at
brainstorm...
I dont think the problem is the new NotifyOSD. Personally I think the
new notifyosd is great. The thing of question here is the
update-notifier package. So lets have a look at that one. The two
mainly discussed things are the bubbles and the icons. For the bubbles
they should and have been
One of the big reasons why I recently 'permanently' abandoned Windows
all together is because Windows frequently believes it knows better,
than I do what I should focus my attention on. Popunder, in my opinion,
is a move in that direction. Lack of persistent notification simply
creates an
What I don't understand is if the idea was to eventually have another
method of handling notifications for updates, as opposed to the current
method, then why not wait until that other method is complete? I don't
understand why one would try and partially implement it and give the
user a bad
Thomas, you bring up an important point. This behaviour is nothing a
user would expect, and something he usually has links to malicious
software, so how to know that it is ok.
However, as I have mentioned before, I think it is even more dangerous
the other way round. People are trained to trust
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