[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Benajmin, Unfortunately your attitude exemplifies the problem. I don't know how you define community, but Launchpad and all the people posting here (and on the related bugs) are an obvious part of the community of Ubuntu users. As are journalists, bloggers, and managers of such sites as Distrowatch. Your blatant disrespect for all of these -- while at the same time claiming victory! -- is a sure sign of being out- of-touch, and ultimately failing. What happened is that the Unity team has surrounded itself with yes-men, contributers who are pre-selected for supporting the decisions, and so for insiders there is an illusion that everything is great. This was the core of my argument with Shuttleworth: he really dislikes my using the terms insider vs. outsider in discussing the Unity and Ubuntu community, but statements such as yours, Benjamin, make it crystal clear that these terms have legs. Look, people like me are never going to be insiders. I'm too busy with other things (mostly in free software) to join all the internal mailing lists and discussions. But I depend on Ubuntu for myself and many of my clients, and I evalute, blog and proseltyze where appropriate. And, of course, I open bugs, and follow through on them, which I personally think is a very, very important community contribution, and I'm constantly exaspertated by how flippantly these bugs are closed. It's your decision to push people like me to the outside. We're sensationalists? We flip flop? Well, OK, but we're your community, and we're the key to your ongoing success... or eventual failure. Ignore us at your own risk. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Benjamin. I took great care in my posts *not* to criticise the state of the Ubuntu community in any way at all. My criticisms with regard to engagement were aimed at the seemingly high-handed approach of the leadership and undesirability of forcing a half-finished and some would argue fundamentally-flawed desktop on its community of users. Like the o/p and many other contributors to this thread, I wanted to express my concern with regard to the damage this course of action is likely to cause. Clearly, there is a significant number of users for whom Unity is entirely inappropriate. Therefore I also suggested some safe and relatively straightforward workarounds so that users could stay with Ubuntu, whilst using a desktop environment that was much more suited to their needs. Finally, now that you mention it, how *do* you measure community engagement? And what makes you so certain that the Unity fiasco is really doing no harm? Best wishes, G. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
You forgot to include that Gnome (3?) is still available: sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback and sudo apt-get install lubuntu-desktop that gives the LXDE desktop environment. As well as some other more exotic window managers like packages fluxbox and icewm, some of which I think can be combined with Gnome. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@mr.goose, Marius These are good options for power users, but do not solve the core issues raised by this bug. To revise an idea I raised here before: Perhaps on the login screen (LightDM) there should already be an option to install additional desktops, using a very easy interface. Each desktop should get a description for the kind of users and workloads it is best suited for. Even better would be a screenshot-guided tour, similar perhaps to what you see during the Ubuntu Installer. Especially important (and more relevant to this bug about communication with the community) is that the description for Unity should be HONEST about its cons. I maintain that poor marketing and too high expectations are one of the main reasons Unity has been receiving so much negativity. Unity is truly a terrific desktop shell, but it's still a work in progress, and is awkward for many kinds of work habits that many computer users have. As long as users know this, they would be more inclined to experiment, more forgiving, and more ready to move to a more mature solution if they need it. This option to install additional desktops should be very prominent! You should not have to dig deep into a Launchpad issue in order to discover that you have other options... -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Tal Liron... I was not offering a solution to the core issues raised by this bug. I was careful to describe my suggestions merely as possible workarounds. Having completely dumped Windows in favour of Ubuntu back in 2007, Unity was very bad news indeed for us. We have paying customers who depend on Ubuntu, that describe Unity as a worse than Windows experience or Ubuntu's Vista. Therefore we had the stark choice of finding some viable workarounds or dumping Ubuntu altogether. I agree with you that forcing a half-finished desktop on users is a very bad idea - something the KDE devs have very much learnt the hard way. However, I'm not sure I would agree that Unity is a terrific desktop though. At least with early, buggy incarnations of KDE 4, one could see that once the bugs were fixed and features properly implemented, that KDE4 would be a great desktop. And it is. The situation with Unity is entirely different, IMHO. What we see with Unity is a crude, Fisher-Price style interface, with loads of really stupid annoying features that get in the way of doing any serious work, e.g. the disappearing scroll bars and menu bars. These features are stupid and annoying. Users hate them. Regardless of how much polish they apply to Unity, these features will *always* be stupid and annoying. Added to which, whilst I am a great admirer of Mark Shuttleworth, I think he is presenting himself very badly in this instance. Frankly, he comes across as arrogant and uncaring. As you put it at top of this thread, rather more politely , This appears to be a communications failure between the people who make Unity and its community of users. The knock-on effects of this communications failure should not be underestimated. This article by Scott Gilbertson in The Register entitled Sick of Ubuntu's bad breath? Suck on a Linux Mint instead sums up the situation far better that I can:- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/30/mint_12_under_the_covers/ And doubtless you have already seen Bruce Byfield's blog in Linux Magazine, that discusses this thread:- http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/A-Disturbing-Dialog-About-Ubuntu-and-Unity And if that is not enough to indicate that Ubuntu is heading in the wrong direction, Distrowatch's page hit ranking now places Ubuntu at #3, with Mint occupying the top slot for the last 12 months:- http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity Like yourself and many other contributors to this thread, I am a huge Ubuntu fan. I am so very sorry to see it embarking on this path of wilful ignorance and ultimate self-destruction. Best wishes, G. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@mr.goose We do not measure community engagement based on Distrowatch rankings and its trivial as to whether Distrowatch rankings are good for measurement of anything and further we do not use sensationalized tech articles to guage whether we are heading in the right direction especially since those same writers flip flop on how good or bad Ubuntu is every other article. The state of the Ubuntu Community is good and if you engaged the Community you would know this. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
For those who dislike Unity intensely but do not want to leave the Ubuntu community (yet) here are couple of possible workarounds that might offer you the familiar look-and-feel you require.:- 1. sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop This will install the beautiful-looking and Windows7-like KDE4 desktop. The start button is in the right place. The pop up applications menu, the task bar and status area all make sense. And you can have the desktop as a desktop or a folder or an app or widget or slideshow - your choice. In fact most people I show it to ask if it's a new version of Windows! Most of KDE's notorious early issues have been resolved. Basically KDE4 was released long before it was ready. But it's OK now. pros:- Familiar look-and-feel; very feature-rich; very pretty; highly customisable; shed-loads of eye-candy; lots of extensibility; super KDE apps available (though you can run these on other desktops too); ; my girlfriend likes it - so does my bro. cons:- Can be a bit resource hungry; you really need a decent machine, especially if you want to use all the whirling desktop cubes and wobbly windows and stuff; there are still a few annoying minor bugs that remain unresolved. Not sure if this is a pro or a con:- After you have used KDE 4 for a while, and customised it to your liking, all other desktops, including Macs might seem crude, or lacking in functionality. My g/f has to use a Mac at work and frequently comes home complaining about all the Things the bloody Mac won't do! 2. sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop This installs the simple but stable XFCE desktop. This is fairly customisable but generally has the look and feel of a plain vanilla Windows 95 desktop. XFCE can be beautified. However, my experience is that many XFCE users are not interested in beautiful desktops. They just want to look at the web or read their email etc., with the least amount of hassle or delay. Pros:- Very stable, very simple; very familiar look and feel; does not hog resources; doesn't get in the way; Linus Torvalds uses it; my mum likes it. Cons:- It's a bit plain-looking. FWIW, I chose option 1 (KDE) for my desktops/laptops and option 2 (XFCE) for servers, for most of my customers and for elder family members. I have just one customer still determined to give Unity a fair go, and even he's considering dumping it. HTH, best wishes, G. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
One would expect that a team working on Unity would know how to create unity. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
** Changed in: unity Assignee: (unassigned) = Unity Team (unity-team) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Goodly proposed question -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Could someone pleaase explain why this bug was closed? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
It is not closed, just changed to status Opinion. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
From the wiki, The idea is that bugs can be marked closed, so developers aren't wasting time on them, but discussion can still be on- going. is quite closed IMO and this bug doesn't even appear in the search results by fefault. So, why has this bug been closed;marked as Opinion? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
** Changed in: ayatana-design Status: Opinion = Confirmed ** Changed in: unity Status: Opinion = Confirmed -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
** Changed in: ayatana-design Status: Confirmed = Opinion ** Changed in: unity Status: Confirmed = Opinion -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
I can second this bug. For example look at this Apache webdav bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apache2/+bug/540747 This is a really nasty bug that makes webdav unusable if you need to work with unix group permissions. They won't fix it for Lucid. They call this Long term support. That's a bad joke! :-( The next time I setup a new server I will take Debian. Ubuntu no more. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Danillo (and @all) What I liked very much about your comment are two things: Firstly: If there still is activity in a bug and there's even people forking Unity to fix it, then the bug's not just someone's pet peeve, it's a real problem for a lot of users. Otherwise, the affects me too is just pointless. You really get to the heart of one of the problems. The affects me too system is absolutely without any meaning if the usual answer to 80, 200 or 250 affect me voters can simply be there are millions of Ubuntu users so those few 'affects me too voters' do not count. If there are millions of Ubuntu users so be it, but if the affects me too votes have to climb a ladder of let's say 500,000 rungs (i.e. votes) to be considered worth discussion this is a really meaningless system. Perhaps one should create a bug report the affects me too system is broken. But then again we would need some hundred-thousand affects me too voters. Secondly: Now, I've always felt that Unity has always been several steps ahead of Gnome Shell both in usability as in customizability, but GS extensions make Unity fall behind. It's very important that a similar system for Unity like suggested be discussed instead of being so quickly dismissed. Firefox does have headaches with add-on support, but that payed off, making it a huge factor for it's dissemination. I can't live without some Firefox add-ons, and neither can Ubuntu: if we didn't have Ubufox and Firefox Unity Integration, Firefox in Ubuntu wouldn't just lack overlay scrollbars, it would look like a complete alien. If Unity extensions had an extensive disclaimer about their lack of warranty and how that they break Unity's design and may possibly break other things in the system, they wouldn't need support from Canonical, would they? They don't even need to have Canonical involvement at all. I now, this is a long excerpt of your comment, but I think it is worth reading again (by everybody). And I mean it: really everybody should read this because this is a very important and good statement. This is the reason why Unity should be extensible. And btw.: when I referred to the new extension system of Gnome Shell and asked why we cannot have something like this for Unity, a simple answer by the developers would be not now, but perhaps later. We lack manpower but see the necessity of such a system. But there was nothing like that. Now, we have a very good explanation by Danillo, why we need extensions. And I am thrilled to hear some answers about that. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
I'm just an Ubuntu user (been one for 3 and a half years) who believes in the Debian's arrow and its philosophy and wants to see free software everywhere, and I would like to add that contrarily to what some people have been saying I am one of those who think that keeping Compiz and going for Unity are the best things that have ever happened to Ubuntu. Unity is the sole reason I upgraded from 9.10 to 11.04 and keep upgrading, and it made my brother get interested in Ubuntu too. It's not just the eye candy, they made me much more productive. I'm really glad we didn't get stuck with Gnome Shell like the other distros did. I love the direction Ubuntu's heading and I'm looking forward to Precise. I would like to comment on this subject because I find it sad that Allison's post #81 is being ignored. Allison has a very important point for this discussion: it's both sides of the community who need to engage in a more healthy way, and we already got people from both sides trying to do that. It's easy to say that the developers should get a tougher skin, but that's not something easy (or desirable) to do. Some unsatisfied users are not trying to get a tougher skin in face of what they perceive as harsh answers from the design team, so why should the developers do that? That's not a realistic request. We need to ask for politeness, not for tougher skins. When we are aggressive to someone, we should expect at least the same level of aggressiveness. We're all humans who have trouble keeping a cool head even when trying really hard to. It's naive to expect otherwise. We should recognize that things are getting better. The UDS decision of focusing on power users and allowing more customizability is a huge step forward to settle this matter. There's increased responsiveness of the design team in some bugs, and even in this bug report we can see progress in the answers. I really don't like the facts that one single person can override at will decisions made by the teams if they don't fit their personal view and that the community isn't included in the making of these decisions, but post #110 really makes sense. Even if they wanted to, they couldn't do everything, specially things outside the blueprints. Sebastian's statistics do show that they do a lot for us. The power user community needs to be more comprehensive about the limitations of the design team and to start looking for answers to their wontfix problems on their own because it's not even humanely viable for the teams to do all that extra work. We can't demand that the Unity developers go out of their way to satisfy our requests, which may be a priority to us but not to other people. Maybe the community could go crowdfunding in order to raise those several thousand dollars for someone who has the hability to fix those bugs in Unity that affect a great deal of users but Canonical can't/won't/don't want to address at the moment? On the other hand, there really is a great deal of users who are not feeling included in Unity development because decisions are made and reverted without their input and because their suggestions do not get a proper answer, and this must be recognized and engaged. It's the lack of communication that causes bugs like this. We know it's hard to give on every bug answers like John Lea's, but this is something I think that Canonical should do at least in those polemical bugs with a very high number of affects me too. When a developer has already communicated a position in a bug report but the report keeps growing, an update post explaining more throughly what is the position of the design team, on what it was based, and how they would react to a community patch is too important to ignore. If there still is activity in a bug and there's even people forking Unity to fix it, then the bug's not just someone's pet peeve, it's a real problem for a lot of users. Otherwise, the affects me too is just pointless. For someone experienced it may seem trivial but it's not so easy for a user to report bugs, specially for those of us who don't have english as mother language. We have to study the problem, reproduce it, find patterns, investigate the cause, gather info, search among thousands of bug reports if it has not been reported already, put the ideas together, and fill in the forms. I love when I read Thank you for taking your time to report this bug and make Ubuntu better because it makes me feel that this work is appreciated. Sometimes a short explanation and a link is all that is necessary to make us understand the reasoning behind something. I know time is short, but if a proper answer isn't going to be given, why bother trying to answer at all? One thing that made Ubuntu feel more human to me was videos like Amber Graner's interviews of the developers in the UDS and the Ubuntu team in the Nokia Lumia event. It's really nice to see and hear the people behind Ubuntu, not just to read them. And lots of you guys and girls are really terrific
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
No, it's just that we don't have enough people to do the work and the number of users is higher than the number of people reading and replying to bugs filed by those users, it's as simple as that This is where code re-use comes in quite handy; rather than reinventing the wheel. gnome is good. Put a light layer on top of it (that requires minimal developer intervention to maintain) to make it better. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Hey again, I can understand where people from but all those comments overlook something easy and it goes down to that: we don't have enough developpers to reply to every bug report, explain every change which is done, and talk to every community members in Ubuntu, the community is just an order or magnitude over the design,hackers base we have. But, looking at the vast majority of the comments on these bugs, the substance of the complaint seems entirely different: a strong sense of being left behind by Ubuntu. Right, we are sorry about that but it's like any organisation (you can take governements as an example), while people in charge care (or should care, no need to sidetrack in politics ;-) they can talk to every single person they represent, it's not bad willing, it's just that one person can talk to millions of people individually It's not that you're saying we can't fix this, it's that you're saying, quite explicitly: We won't; and we won't accept patches; and we won't acknowledge the underlying problems; and we won't offer alternative solutions; and we won't tell you what our plans are, if any, that disallow this; and we won't tell you why. Can you point to a bug where that has been said? I'm reading hundred of bugs every and I can say it's not what happen. Often design use wontfix saying that they ack there is an issue but it's not one that can be adressed in the coming cycles seeing the backlog we already have and the manpower to work on it. You can take the dash screen should be customizable as an example (bug #885738) where John took the time to explain: Given the time and resource constraints we have to work with, and also because 12.04 is a LTS (for LTSs we try to avoid introducing major new functional areas), it will not be possible to build a great Dash home configuration story in this cycle. However if (and it is a big *if*) we get the time/resource to look at this area in the future, we will review this thread and use all the valuable input and ideas yourself and others have provided to help to kick off the design process. In GNOME 3, they can close a bug by saying Well, this is outside of our vision, so it's better handled as an extension. And now they're even actively endorsing these extensions, with an impressively friendly site. Let's not get sidetracked on that, it's not fair to judge the Unity project as not open because its code based has not beeing designed to be modifiable at runtime the way gnome-shell has. While it's great and some users will love it, it also has drawbacks (talk to the mozilla guys about how much complains they are getting about firefox stability which are not due to bugs in firefox but in third party code, having a way to hack your shell is also not a replacement for having a good usable experience by default) Look at all those commits! But, it's doomed to fail, and we all know it: he will not be able to always keep his fork well-merged with the Unity trunk. Forks are great in many cases, but this is exactly that situation where you want to keep the main binary intact and allow for extensions. But, Golikov did not stop at the won't fix. He saw a community need, and stepped up to the plate on his own time. Right, there is for sure good work and great energy in the community and there is no doubt Unity could be open to extra changes, with an infinite manpower we would fix any bug and support any options requested, in real world the manpower is very far to be infinite and an agenda has to be set, work has to be done in order until we get a least a solid basis, they it will be easier to review extra suggestions I've been following the multiple-monitor issue as closely as I can as an outsider, and I still have absolutely no idea how Unity is going to solve it, if at all, for 12.04. The multimonitor work in 12.04 is mostly bug fixing work, you can follow a good part of what is coming on this blueprint! https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-multi-monitor There is probably a bunch of unity ux bugs also on the topic You originally closed the bug for the movable Launcher because you said you wanted to keep the Dash button close to the Launcher. Since they are now united, it seems that your original reason is gone. But, nobody has told *us* what the new reason is for the Launcher to stay on the left. Right, it has been shipped with the bfb on the panel for one cycle, user testing and design iteration moved it to the launcher. It's not that nobody *told* you, it's that nobody know,knew exactly. Design is a dynamic process, it requires experiments and iterations, you learn from trying things and see how users react, that tweak it to fix the issues you spotted with the first round. What is this vision? Is there a vision? Why do you assume there is one which is just not communicated to you? Design has ideas on where they want to go but they didn't study enough the field there and experiment enough to have a
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@s-roesgen First of all it would be nice to see here some answer to Tal's comment #112, which includes some very good and valid points. done You think that one should be silent and not complain further if it comes to certain bugs. They are marked as won't fix and should not be discussed further. You do not understand the reason for any further discussion taking place? Well first design is not using wontfix as we will never ever fix it but as it's not something we plan to address in the near futur, which often comes to a priority handling game. Now maybe we could make that clearer when closing bugs and saying the issue might be revisited in the futur but is not scheduled for the next iterations. Do you also have example where bugs got wontfix-ed without comments on explanation? My experience is that often there is a comment or description update going with those. One other thing worth noting is that bug suggesting a solution rather than explaining the issue are harder to deal with with design. Often users ask for something to be made similar to what they are used to without trying to explain why it's better than the currernt way or what limitation they are hitting. Change can be hard but you don't design a great experience by copying old ways, you try to focus on the problems and the best way to solve them. Yes it makes harder the transition but it should also make better the experience after that. Well, perhaps some people, like you and the won't fix party, should have a look at a couple of launchpad bugs. All of them have in common that they do have problems due to basic design issues . Obviously there was much thought on design in Unity planning, and less thought on more practical aspects. There is won't fix party, there is a ridiculisly low number of wontfix bugs on Unity as the stat I gave before show, we should try to stop focussing on that. And yes, lot of the current unity has issues, http://people.canonical.com/~platform/design/ points that hundred of usability issues have been identified, a good part has suggested solutions but needs to make its way to the code. The number there can be impressive but those are mostly bugs, then you hit lot of things that the design team didn't have time to properly think about or design yet. the multiscreen usage being one which just started being worked and is scheduled for this cycle. The most important of these bugs is, in my opinion, bug 727171 Just as side note, this bug has been opened by one of the Canonical engineers working in the Unity team ;-) Reading the comments in bug 857668 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/857668) should offer some more interesting insights into the issues triggered by mere design decisions. Further problems are described in bug 777241 and ... well let me stop here listing them all. Some of them duplicates, some of the smaller issues. Right, those are known issue and will be addressed this cycle, they didn't get worked before for a simple manpower reason. My problem is indeed not a design decision that led to a won't fix position concerning certain bugs. I can get used to many design decisions. The problem is a) how these decisions are communicated b) on what ideas these decisions are grounded/based Some people there seem to read to much in the fact that people are just overworked and can't solve all the world software issues in a day. On the way of how these decisions are communicated you should only read Tal's comment #112. It was said that the launcher will not be moveable because it should be tied to the BFB. Now the BFB is part of the launcher but still the decision to not make the launcher movable stays . Ergo the explanation that the BFB and the launcher should be on the same side was a lie. And I am very sorry to put it that way, but to me it is and stays a lie unless I will hear some more thoroughly elaborated explanation to the community why the decision to let it be a won't fix bug stays. That bug is just simply not a priority today, look at the design bugs summary and spec, there is lot of things that need to be sorted for unity to work at all for some users (like multi monitor handling), once that work is done we can look at extra flexibility and options So, my complaints are not about a single bug. My complaints deal with communication of problems and design decisions. they deal with the way the community is treated. I am not stupid. We are not stupid. Many people have not forgotten, what the initial explanation to not fix a bug was based on. But we are treated as if we had the memory capabilities of a fly. The community engagement is broken. And that is fact. Obviously we are treated as second class citizens, who need not be informed, who need not be able to have a look at design decisions and general agendas/plans. ... No, it's just that we don't have enough people to do the work and the number of users is higher than the number of people
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
First of all it would be nice to see here some answer to Tal's comment #112, which includes some very good and valid points. ANd I do not see any sane and logical way to ignore the arguments he gives. But where is the answer to the arguments he wrote? Secondly, concerning kikl's comment (#113): You think that one should be silent and not complain further if it comes to certain bugs. They are marked as won't fix and should not be discussed further. You do not understand the reason for any further discussion taking place? Well, perhaps some people, like you and the won't fix party, should have a look at a couple of launchpad bugs. All of them have in common that they do have problems due to basic design issues . Obviously there was much thought on design in Unity planning, and less thought on more practical aspects. The most important of these bugs is, in my opinion, bug 727171 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/727171). Reading the comments in bug 857668 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/857668) should offer some more interesting insights into the issues triggered by mere design decisions. Further problems are described in bug 777241 and ... well let me stop here listing them all. Some of them duplicates, some of the smaller issues. My problem is indeed not a design decision that led to a won't fix position concerning certain bugs. I can get used to many design decisions. The problem is a) how these decisions are communicated b) on what ideas these decisions are grounded/based On the way of how these decisions are communicated you should only read Tal's comment #112. It was said that the launcher will not be moveable because it should be tied to the BFB. Now the BFB is part of the launcher but still the decision to not make the launcher movable stays . Ergo the explanation that the BFB and the launcher should be on the same side was a lie. And I am very sorry to put it that way, but to me it is and stays a lie unless I will hear some more thoroughly elaborated explanation to the community why the decision to let it be a won't fix bug stays. So, my complaints are not about a single bug. My complaints deal with communication of problems and design decisions. they deal with the way the community is treated. I am not stupid. We are not stupid. Many people have not forgotten, what the initial explanation to not fix a bug was based on. But we are treated as if we had the memory capabilities of a fly. The community engagement is broken. And that is fact. Obviously we are treated as second class citizens, who need not be informed, who need not be able to have a look at design decisions and general agendas/plans. It seems that some people forget that the users who use Ubuntu now for many years are those who helped spread the name of the distribution. Those who helped making it popular and who found bugs. Who filed these bugs. Those who talked about usability issues and pointed them out to the developers. And now, these users do not have the right anymore, to have their arguments heard and discussed on a base of equals? Now is suddenly the time when a design decision is always the ultimate argument, even though nobody wants to explain what the design plans are, actually. Even though nobody wants to discuss these design decisions? We, the users, the community, will never be able to come up with logical and valid arguments to discuss a design decisions and bring forward arguments against it, if and when we do now the general agenda and plans behind that decisions. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Oops! I'm embarrassed: in my previous comment (112) I refer to the Mark. It is a typo; I simply meant Mark. Unfortunately, the typo is suggestive of the angle of criticism that sees Unity as Mark's ego trip. I'll state clearly that I firmly reject such criticism. I see no evidence that any of the problems are driven by Mark or anybody else's inflated sense of importance. All that's going on is the usual mess that inflicts large-scale projects: people get overly focused on their specific roles and cultivate necessary blind spots over other parts of the project. In this case, the blind spot covers Ubuntu's early adopters and their need for transparency. The only healthy way to deal with such problems is to bring them into the open, discuss them as broadly as possible, and have the leadership cultivate anti-mechanisms that intentionally shine light on the blind spots. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Well, I have followed this lively debate and it seems somewhat unproductive. We users must accept that the design is not going to go our way. Won't fix is a somewhat hard wording. Maybe something like, we won't do it, because we do not have the ressources, please do it yourself or find someone who does it for you - maybe something like that would have smothered the flames (pun intended). I find it extremely pleasing that the lead designers actually do talk with the community. I don't remember any windows designer talking back to me... So we just can't expect Mark and canonical to cater to each and everyone's needs. I would like to say a few words from a user point of view to the two bugs that were linked to the original bug report. 1. option to configure Unity launcher placement I really don't know any reason whatsoever, why users can't get used to the placement of the launcher. So now its on the left hand side instead of the bottom, so what? Is this impossible to learn? The user testing performed by Charline Poirier seems to suggest that new users have no problems adapting to the placement. In my mind this wish is merely fueled by habituation and nothing else. So in this sense I think Mark Shuttleworth's reasoning is completely justified. Don't waste any resources on this. Try to fix the real bugs. 2. What I do miss in Natty ... is the possibility to click on the app. icon on the Unity launcher bar to minimize all windows of that application, not only to launch/restore it. Mark has explained, why he doesn't want to implement this feature. It would appear inconsistent if the same button would at the same time display and hide an application. So he thinks that new usability issues would emerge if this were implemented. Point taken and he is probably right. But, in this case one should ask: What does he really want to accomplish? He wants to display the desktop in a fast and simple way. At the moment, you either have to minimize all windows - which can be cumbersome - or use nautilus - somewhat unintuitive - or switch the workspace - also a little strange. Yes, it can be done, but these are all workarounds. A fast and intuitive way to display the desktop would be welcome. Regards Kikl -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Oh, I forgot to add. All power users should merely use the keyboard shortcut ubuntu-button and D or window ikon- AAHHRRG;-( and D, in order to display/hide the Desktop. All the best. I think Tal Liron genuinely cares about Ubuntu. Don't loose him, he is a valuable contributor! Regards Kikl -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
On 03/12/11 01:38, Jonathan Gartner wrote: Disregarding any portion of the 20 million you (claim) to have, for the promise of a theoretical 180 million seems to me a be a very dangerous game to play for a fledgling company. If you take a look at Sebastien's analysis of bug statistics, you'll see we've fixed 16 bugs for every 1 we've declined to fix. That's amazing. Given that it's well established that one cannot create a great product if you try to be all things to all people, don't you accept that there will be some suggestions and opinions we should not pursue? And would 1 in 16 be about right? Or is it too low? Or too high? On what basis would you make that assessment? If you agree that there should of necessity be some bugs we will not fix, who do you think should decide which of those suggestions or wishlist items should be in, and which should be out? Don't you think the underwriters, designers and developers of the project should have that right? That this will result in the best product? If it's not them, who should it be? Say it's 1 in 16. Accepting that we have 20 million users, many of whom are strongly opinionated about technical matters, would you expect to see a lot of traffic on those few issues which, for whatever reason, are wontfix? I would. In the light of all that, is the fact that there are a very few bugs which are wontfix, and which have a great deal of noise about them, so surprising? Is it really a sign of a poor community engagement? Would a poor community engagement not rather be hallmarked by a total silence from me and others? Instead, you have: * more activity on the public Ubuntu and Unity design lists than on any other free software project design * greater responsiveness on bugs (in the sense of participating in the discussion, not automatically saying yes) than elsewhere * participation by me, other designers, and senior engineers * a very high ratio of bugs fixed, relative to other free software projects Now, in that light, you are welcome to draw your own conclusions. My conclusion is that we have a dramatically open process, a healthy debate and discussion, and an equally healthy mechanism for making decisions and putting them into action, which is what the free software community needs. The tagline for the founding of Ubuntu was Linux for Human Beings. That was startling at the time because it said precisely the opposite of what you are suggesting; it said that the average human being is more important to us than those who Linux has served in the past; those are the values that attracted the people who actually build Ubuntu - all of it, from Unity through the server release and Kubuntu and Edubuntu. You are welcome in this community, but not welcome to redefine its mission to suit your needs. Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Referring to this answer: If you agree that there should of necessity be some bugs we will not fix, who do you think should decide which of those suggestions or wishlist items should be in, and which should be out? Don't you think the underwriters, designers and developers of the project should have that right? That this will result in the best product? If it's not them, who should it be? Again: if there were the same solution for Unity that is now implemented for Gnome Shell, this discussion would be obsolete. Nobody could be complaining about won't fix bugs, because there would always be the possibility to write your own patch and make it available as an installable extension. But then we would need such a place in the Sofware Centre (instead of dozens of PPAs). Offer those, who complain about the won't fix situation, the possibility to simply upload their patches if they are willing to write them. Make these patches not default, but make it easily possible to install these patches via the Software Centre. But to not offer that possibility, though some people are willing to write those patches (or already have written those patches) and to deny them the possibility to thus participate in the community, though they are willing to do their share, that is what I call hypocritical. No average user would install a PPA and thus no average user has the opportunity to decide if he/she would like some of the patches which modify Unity because he/she cannot try these patches. A section in the Software Centre which is easily reachable would be a solution. Nobody expects Canonical to invest money to pay developers to program solutions which are not on the agenda. Those who pay the developers decide what should be programmed. BUT you cannot and must not deny anyone the possibility to participate. Otherwise this is NOT community and this is NOT anything for human beings. Then it would only be Linux for Canonical beings. And you can really say then canonical beings or Canonical beings. A canon defined by those who pay the developers and designers, a canon defined by Canonical. So, what about the simple question of a section in the software center which reads Unity Extension? Not Unity Indicators, not Unity Scopes and Lenses. There are some who want more than just some fancy new icons and filters for their searches. And some of them already have implemented their own solutions and would perhaps like to offer them. Many people do not want to use dozens of PPAs just to be able to modify some simple things. Nobody expects you to invest money or developer power into those things. But make it possible that the work of those people who invest their time can be appreciated. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Mark, You keep putting the blame on a straw target: people who refuse to accept that their one pet bug is not being addressed. Sure, those people exist, and you attitude concerning them is correct, if too abrupt in tone. But, looking at the vast majority of the comments on these bugs, the substance of the complaint seems entirely different: a strong sense of being left behind by Ubuntu. And, you keep going back to the same line of defense: the statistics. You're proud of the 15/16 number, for good reasons. But it's all about the substance of these bugs, not the number of them, and the way in which they are being closed. (Which is the line of defense that *I* keep going back to...) It's not that you're saying we can't fix this, it's that you're saying, quite explicitly: We won't; and we won't accept patches; and we won't acknowledge the underlying problems; and we won't offer alternative solutions; and we won't tell you what our plans are, if any, that disallow this; and we won't tell you why. In GNOME 3, they can close a bug by saying Well, this is outside of our vision, so it's better handled as an extension. And now they're even actively endorsing these extensions, with an impressively friendly site. But, there's no such thing as Unity extensions. (There is such extensibility when it comes to application indicators, another part of the Ayatana umbrella, and there's indeed a healthy community effort to develop more and more of these, many which solve usability problems inherent in the default desktop experience: for example, a classic menu for those who find it hard to use the Dash with a mouse. It would be nice if Ubuntu engaged these devs and integrated indicators better into Ubuntu, like GNOME has. But, remember, I opened the community engagement bug originally for Unity, and it's there that the problem is most severe, for technical as well as project- management reasons.) Moreover, I think I can safely say that there will not be Unity extensions. That would fly in the face of everything you said about programmer availability, testability in the long run, etc. Opening the door to extensions, with a supported open-ended API, seems far more problematic than merely allowing the Launcher to be movable. I would be very surprised, pleasantly so, if this would ever become a priority. An extension API *is* community engagement in the most material way. Pavel Golikov is an unsung Ubuntu hero, and I doubt he will be acknowledged as a hero by the Mark and other insiders. He is the sole person behind the fork to allow the Launcher to be movable to the bottom: https://code.launchpad.net/~paullo612/unity/unityshell-rotated Look at all those commits! But, it's doomed to fail, and we all know it: he will not be able to always keep his fork well-merged with the Unity trunk. Forks are great in many cases, but this is exactly that situation where you want to keep the main binary intact and allow for extensions. But, Golikov did not stop at the won't fix. He saw a community need, and stepped up to the plate on his own time. I've been following the multiple-monitor issue as closely as I can as an outsider, and I still have absolutely no idea how Unity is going to solve it, if at all, for 12.04. You originally closed the bug for the movable Launcher because you said you wanted to keep the Dash button close to the Launcher. Since they are now united, it seems that your original reason is gone. But, nobody has told *us* what the new reason is for the Launcher to stay on the left. What is this vision? And, nobody told *us* what people with multiple monitors (or speakers of right-to-left languages) should do. This, of course, reminded me of when Ubuntu moved the window decoration button to the left, opaquely talking about a vision that was never elaborated. And that was the point where I suddenly realized the real, endemic problem, and opened this bug about community engagement. Final note -- I would suggest that the 15/16 fix rate is due not only to the diligence of the programmers, but also to the care by which the Ubuntu community opens these bugs on Launchpad, tends to them, responds, etc. I participate in many free software projects, and of course much of that work is in bug triaging, but a lot of effort goes to communicating with the opener of the bug. (Some would call that effort wasted, but that's exactly the attitude that I'm trying to fight here.) I can honestly say that I'm impressed by how well, on a whole, bugs are *opened* in Ubuntu. I can't find the citation right now, but I remember you saying a long time ago that Launchpad was one of the most important parts of the Ubuntu vision. It was one of your many statements that made me commit much of my professional (and personal!) life to Ubuntu. This was a commitment to the community. Moreover, it was reaching out and telling you that you needed us. Unsurprisingly, many answered the call. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Just have a look. Here one can see how dealing with a community can be done easily. http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/12/gnome-shell-extensions-site-enters- alpha-makes-adding-extra-features-easy/ Especially that part hits the mark: This is despite the fact that many of the extensions presently available are at odds with the GNOME Shell design philosophy; GNOME are nevertheless throwing weight and resources behind catering to those users who want them. Why isn't this possible for Unity. A Software Center section which offers add-ons to Unity (and not only Scopes and Lenses). And if this is perhaps planned for the future, why isn't it communicated to the Ubuntu community? This would solve many problems. If you had such a section in the Software Center, and if there wasn't any need to activate it or to first add a new PPA, then this whole bug (882274) could be seen in a different light. Offer the community developers a section in the Software Center a section to offer tweaks and plug-ins for Unity. A section, which can be easily reached, without the need for the average user to add a new PPA. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
I think Mark's general undertone of comments like Unity was not developed for the Ubuntu community of today, it was developed with love for the Ubuntu community of the future. You're invited to that community, but not required to join it and his dogged unwillingness in this bug thread to accept that there are any problems with general community engagement and transparency only serves to reinforce Tal's point(s). Personally I like Unity, but I do take issue with the way Canonical seems to dismiss its users. The 'my way or the highway' attitude that Mr Shuttleworth has displayed towards anyone who raises questions about Unity (and to a lesser extent the Ubuntu community as a whole) is at the very least insulting. Disregarding any portion of the 20 million you (claim) to have, for the promise of a theoretical 180 million seems to me a be a very dangerous game to play for a fledgling company. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
seems to me to* be a -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
I think this is a pretty evenhanded summary of how the problems/bugs with Ubuntu affect the community, and why Canonical should care more: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11352664#post11352664 -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
It would be much more precise to change status to opinion since there is a difference of opinion surrounding this bug. ** Changed in: ubuntu-community Status: New = Opinion ** Changed in: unity Status: Confirmed = Opinion ** Changed in: unity-2d Status: New = Opinion ** Changed in: unity-2d (Ubuntu) Status: Confirmed = Opinion ** Changed in: unity (Ubuntu) Status: Confirmed = Opinion ** Changed in: ayatana-design Status: New = Opinion -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
** Changed in: unity Status: New = Confirmed -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
I would like to humbly quote from someone who once made a very passionate argument for diversity, openness, and knowing how to embrace different ideas from the contributor and user community in a project: This is a critical juncture for the leadership of Gnome. I’ll state plainly that I feel the long tail of good-hearted contributors to Gnome and Gnome applications are being let down by a decision-making process that has let competitive dynamics diminish the scope of Gnome itself. Ideas that are not generated “at the core” have to fight incredibly and unnecessarily hard to get oxygen. Ask the Zeitgeist team. Federico is a hero, but getting room for ideas to be explored should not feel like a frontal assault on a machine gun post. This is no way to lead a project. This is a recipe for a project that loses great people to environments that are more open to different ways of seeing the world. Elementary. Unity. Embracing those other ideas and allowing them to compete happily and healthily is the only way to keep the innovation they bring inside your brand. Otherwise, you’re doomed to watching them innovate and then having to “relayout” your own efforts to keep up, badmouthing them in the process. -- Mark Shuttleworth, 2011-03-10, http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/654 It is a shame that the same thoughts are not applied to Unity itself. It would certainly be nice to see ideas not generated at the [Unity] core not being shot down like soldiers charging against a machine gun post. It would have been nice to see something positive come out of this discussion, which was clearly started with a positive intent and with the goal of improving the overall product and experience for all concerned. Just because there exist hostile and self-entitled people who flame and tear down everything without cause, that does not mean that everyone with a different idea is like that. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
On 19/11/11 04:46, Dwayne Litzenberger wrote: You're absolutely right: You can't always please everybody; you have to prioritize. What worries me is that Mark Shuttleworth has stated, fairly explicitly, that Ubuntu users are not a priority: Hold on a sec. You're extrapolating from the fact that we run usability tests on non-Ubuntu users to the idea that we somehow don't care about Ubuntu users. That's nonsense: Unity is user-tested every day by all the engineers working on it, and all of the Ubuntu community, who between them file thousands of bugs, of which thousands get fixed. Linux has always been tested by Linux users. And we have tools to learn from that testing and improve. This tool, the bug tracker, is one of them. And Sebastien has shown how amazingly well the needs of people who use bug trackers are being served. There are many people who use Linux heavily who describe Unity as the best thing that happened to their interface. You may not be one of them, but to deny their existence is to exclude yourself from the realm of reasonable discussion. That's so brain-damaged that I'm still in denial about it, despite my own bad experiences, and despite the words being right there for all to see. How could anyone think it's possible to develop a great interface without actually paying close attention to the people who spend countless *weeks* actually using it? It doesn't make any sense. As Sebastien showed, the team does pay close attention to the needs of those users. They just don't always fix the particular issue that might be trouble *you*, *first*. Now, please choose between constructive participation, helping to fix the issues where we are in perfect agreement on the issue and the fix, or going elsewhere. There are many areas where Unity can be improved, where your idea of an improvement and my idea of an improvement are completely in sync. I would ask you to help get those things done, and I'm sure the result will be satisfying for you. Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
This discussion could be much more effective if we agree to get *precise* about which Community we are referring to. Community engagement is broken is much much too general a bug to fix. It's like saying Ubuntu is buggy. Can we agree to get more *precise* in this Precise cycle? More here: http://randall.executiv.es/uds-p-12 Engagement between the Ubuntu-enthusiasts Community and the Ayatana Design team is broken might be a better bug title and might lessen the swirl... but that's just a guess. Community is this huge, nebulous cloud. And, to Mark's point we cannot realistically expect to design Ubuntu (the OS) for everyone who might be a part of the community and it's millions of outposts. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Randall Good point, and a helpful intervention. Individuals might define their community differently, but piecing together the many voices, and applying some of your language, I'd say that community here means: The current set of long-time, heavy users, as well as advocates, of Ubuntu's main distribution line (as opposed to Kubuntu and Xubuntu). I think the term user can also be blown up a bit: it includes a diverse mix of home users, computer enthusiasts, people who work in enterprise IT, and who build, deploy and support software on top of Ubuntu. And they each offer a different flavor of concern and criticism. I emphasized long-time because it seems that this community has already seen some of Ubuntu and free software desktops evolve, enough that they can articulate an informed opinion about the process. And I emphasized heavy because I imagine most light users would be more likely to take a wait-and-see approach rather than participate. Their stakes are lower. And that's my main point: I believe that this community has real stakes in Ubuntu's future, in some cases backed by real money, possibly a lot of it. And I believe that perhaps these heavy users have been discounted. Possibly for good reasons, as they are weighed down with past bias, outdated habits and legacy applications. But, I'll also point out that Microsoft has been a great choice for enterprises for a long time, specifically due to their proven commitment to the legacy userbase. Ubuntu's LTS commitment is one great way to do the same, but the devil is in the details. Recall how long it took Microsoft to push NT technology through: a few attempts proved problematic (Windows NT 4), so they kept providing more OSes in the half-way legacy line (Windows 95, 98, Me) before the user community could meet them fully at Windows XP. You can have a vision, and it can be a great vision, but you can't force your community into it without disaster. Will Ubuntu 12.04 be a Windows NT 4? A Windows Me? A few people have pointed towards Linux Mint's refreshing (get it? mint?) attitude in this, as they have worked hard to provide a friendly, welcoming path of familiarity from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3: http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_lisa_whatsnew.php#gnome3 That short paragraph there sums out very elegantly everything I've been trying to put forward here. Perhaps Ubuntu should package and ship MGSE with 12.04 for its GNOME Shell login session. Or perhaps MGSE should be remixed to work as Unity plugin instead of a GNOME 3 plugin. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 06:24:43PM -, Sebastien Bacher wrote: Nobody is denying that there are requests for those changes, but you can find lot of users requesting any change and often a non trivial number of users with a different or conflicting opinion ;-) Reality is that people are different and you can't just please everybody You're absolutely right: You can't always please everybody; you have to prioritize. What worries me is that Mark Shuttleworth has stated, fairly explicitly, that Ubuntu users are not a priority: Speaking of usability tests: I see at least two problems regarding the community and communication within the usability tests: 1. No ubuntu user was included. Only 13 Windows users, 1 Mac user and 1 user who uses both Windows and MacOSX. http://design.canonical.com/2010/11/usability-testing-of-unity/ -- Unity is in fact not developed for the ubuntu community. Ubuntu aims to deliver Linux for Human Beings. On that basis, the selection of test subjects is entirely appropriate. [snip] We have about 20 million users today. We want 200 million users by 2014. The extra 180 million users are not in the Ubuntu community today, so you can in a sense say that it's true - Unity was not developed for the Ubuntu community of today, it was developed with love for the Ubuntu community of the future. That's so brain-damaged that I'm still in denial about it, despite my own bad experiences, and despite the words being right there for all to see. How could anyone think it's possible to develop a great interface without actually paying close attention to the people who spend countless *weeks* actually using it? It doesn't make any sense. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
So after thinking a bit about the discussion there I also went to check if wontfix without comment is such a trend, over 3 cycles of unity, some stats on unity itself (not counting the other unity components, not counting the bugs reassigned): 5475 bugs got reported (over 8000 counting duplicates), of which: 2087 bugs are still open 1606 bugs got marked fix released 98 bugs marked wontfix some community members might have got unlucky on the requests they filed but those stats clearly don't support the every time a user complains about having a bad experience with the UI, the response has been, WONTFIX statement, the number of bugs fixed is over 16x times the number of bugs wontfixed, around 30 bugs closed this way as cycle for sure doesn't quality as every time a user complains... -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
interesting link, Sebastien. however, a random pick of the first 10 bugs listed in unity (all importance high or critical) shows 7 of them were opened by John Lea from Canonical's Design team and those 10 bugs have 29 affected users in total, which makes about 3 affected users per bug. Even your own won't fix bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/683170 has a higher number of affected users (34). The total amount of affected users in the top 10 won't fix unity bugs is 555, which makes about 56 per bug. And there aren't only the won't fix bugs, there are also the left behind undecided bugs (like my one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/734253) Instead, it is cared about things like window shadows having a border of 20px (https://bugs.launchpad.net/light-themes/+bug/804328)... doesn't make me s sure contact to users is very tight... however, of course I appreciate work on real application bugs, thanks for that and keep on the good work. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
however, a random pick of the first 10 bugs listed in unity (all importance high or critical) shows 7 of them were opened by John Lea from Canonical's Design team and those 10 bugs have 29 affected users in total, which makes about 3 affected users per bug. John is working for the Canonical design team and has been filling bugs, for example, about the issues that get noticed during the user testing sessions the design team is running. The users who participated are often not Ubuntu users or technical users and wouldn't file bugs by themself, so it's good that somebody does it for them ;-) The total amount of affected users in the top 10 won't fix unity bugs is 555, which makes about 56 per bug. Nobody is denying that there are requests for those changes, but you can find lot of users requesting any change and often a non trivial number of users with a different or conflicting opinion ;-) Reality is that people are different and you can't just please everybody there are also the left behind undecided bugs Right, seeing the number of bugs opened and the number of the people working in the unity team there is no way they could handled all the bug reports, they would need to put the team full time on it and that would probably still be enough (and no work would get done), that issue is probably true for any opensource (or non-opensource probably) project with quite some users (try looking at the GNOME bugzilla, the firefox bug tracker, etc). -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
thanks for that information and helping to understand processes better. this is the right attitude to get rid of this bug. :-) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Bazon (bazonbloch); all bugs that are reported to ayatana-design are reviewed, however we currently have a 3.5 week bug backlog due to UDS so our response time at the moment is a bit slower than usual. We also will be doing a thorough review of all the historical ayatana-design bugs that have accumulated over the last couple of years, but this will take time as there are other pressures and this is several hundred bugs to review! We do spend a lot of resource on reviewing and triaging bugs, however the sheer volume of incoming bugs means that we can't always answer all the bugs and engage in conversations at the level of detail we would like. Bugs that have developers who ready and willing to fix them will always jump to the front of the queue as our priority is making practical improvements and supporting active community developers. If there is a bug that you are interested in working on or fixing, please ping me on #ayatana or#ubuntu-design and I will do my best to either answer your question or direct you to the designer who is best placed to help. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Reading this bug I would like to point that webpage to people who care about design interactions and how the community and the unity team interact: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/design/upstream.html That page has been built to make design issues tracking easier, if you look at this page you can see lot of design issues which have been raised, reviewed, discussed and handed back for implementation to the different teams (unity, desktop, etc) Those who claim that the design is not open to discussion should look at this page and the number of items on it to have an any of the load of requests landing on a small team and the great efforts that are made to have open and public communication (the current list of bugs which got some agreement between submitter and designer on what to do is over an hundred) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
An interesting comment I've read from a Linux Pro Magazine post about this: http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce- Byfield-s-Blog/A-Disturbing-Dialog-About-Ubuntu-and-Unity/ A simple solution for Ubuntu francesco44 Nov 05, 2011 12:08am GMT I have been a happy user of Ubuntu for the last 4 or 5 years. All of what I have tried, seen or heard about Unity does not convince me to say the least. But Mark Shuttleworth has the right to try to innovate, maybe that's is duty or his Karma. As I switched back to the LTS 10.04, i will eventually try to upgrade to the future LTS or install Mint or Debian. This position of uncertainty regarding th future is not very comfortable. I am not alone in that case. We are a lot of professionals, that is people with a demanding job (eventually in research, university or teaching..or industry...) and not necessarily power users who need an efficient OS, stability, continuity. We have not the time, usually, to play with a new interface, nor to try it for the pleasure of knowing if we like it or not. For many of us, when we adopted Ubuntu, there was some kind of a silent contract between us and the Ubuntu community. The type of contract that Debian, or the Linux Foundation has with the community: seriousness and continuity. Reading the answers to that questions (continuity) by Jono Bacon and Mark Shuttleworth in different blogs gives the bad impression that these professional users are left in the middle of the river. If you do not like Unity, there is plenty of other distros that might satisfy you. For me this is not a very professional answer. What will be the next whim of the Canonical team? If I was in charge of 1000 computers in a university or any community I would think twice before installing Ubuntu. If Mark Shuttleworth wants to keep the reputation he has, rightly, gathered for the development of Ubuntu, he would rather listen to people who followed him and also participated in the extension of the community. And above all he would secure and eventually promote a simple interface (like Gnome2) for the sake of continuity and stability. This is not too complicated as many participants of this debate have illustrated. The interest (and certainly the financial interest) of Canonical, Ubuntu and the community is without any doubt to care of the people who followed you and not to try to discourage them. It would be sound to listen of the innumerable voices who criticize Unity, usually for the same reasons. If Mark Shuttleworth was really confident in Unity...he would provide the necessary continuity of a Gnome2 equivalent desktopand he would just wait for hard boiled power users to be convinced by his new UI. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Reuben Again and again people forget the other Ubuntus: Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and -- hopefully soon -- Lubuntu. They are very much supported by the Ubuntu project and by Mark personally. It's curious that when people are disappointed by Unity they turn not to the other Ubuntus but to other operating systems entirely. What is the conclusion? Apparently, supporting alternative official Ubuntus is not working well. Either the community doesn't care for these, appreciate them, or just has very low expectations (after being burned by the main Ubuntu) and won't give them a chance. The Ubuntu project may need to do a better job at raising the profiles of these. But, even the ability to use GNOME Shell instead of Unity is often overlooked, and it's right in the box. So, what's the problem? I tend to think about usability problems in the simplest terms. What would work for me is this: when you turn on your Ubuntu computer, and are ready to login, you are greeted with this screen: Welcome to Ubuntu! Ubuntu comes with several desktop experiences to match the diverse needs of its community of users. You need to pick one now, but know that you can always logout and try a different one. We recommend trying them all, and welcome your feedback on each. * Unity: If you don't know where to start, try this! It's polished, fuss-free, and can satisfy those who prefer the mouse and also those who prefer the keyboard. Unity does its best to stay out of your way and keep you focused on your work and play. Unity is currently a work in progress, but millions of users consider it done. Please let us know how we can improve it! Note that at this time Unity has limited support for multiple monitor setups. * XFCE: A friendly variation of the classic desktop. Recommended if you've used computers for years and don't want to change your habits. * KDE: The most advanced integrated desktop environment in the world. Enough said! * LXDE: Another lean and mean variation of the classic desktop, optimized for older computers. Also recommended for users seeking the most lightweight desktop. * GNOME Shell: Another innovative attempt to simplify the desktop paradigm. Very mouse-friendly. Check this box [x] if you don't want to see this message again. You can always click on [button] to select a different desktop experience when you login. Of course, I don't expect the base Ubuntu install to include all desktops, but it shouldn't be hard to install them off the Internet when the user selects them. All flavors of Ubuntu could come with this welcome screen, whatever their base desktop experience is. It's not too easy to accomplish: right now, the desktop meta-packages also pull in a lot of default apps (browsers, word processors, games, etc.), which would make it far too heavy to easily switch. So, there need to be simpler meta-packages that only install the shell and let you keep the apps you are already are using. This will mean more work to maintain them. But, I would suggest that maintaining these packages might be a better idea than maintaining separate other Ubuntus officially. If Ubuntu can deliver such an experience, and make sure that each of the desktops maintains high standards (with consistent Ambience and Radiance themes?), then I don't see why anybody would ever dream of *not* using Ubuntu. For reals. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Tal#91: Very good suggestion! Even on ubuntuforums.org I read about people dualbooting between different tastes of ubuntu instead of just selecting another DE in the DM. Also, (as I said before), I'm very happy with Xubuntu+Compiz+Ambiance, so I suppose that or other DE-options could be a solution for other not happy with unity. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Bazon Thanks! As I keep trying to emphasize, I did not open this bug because I think Unity is bad, nor because I want Unity to be something that's it not supposed to be, nor because I'm unaware that there are many other terrific free software alternative, in Ubuntu and beyond. This bug is not about the software. This bug is about making the Unity project more welcoming -- or at least less alienating. Too many people feel that Unity has been shoved down their throats. Too many people feel that they have been tricked into being beta testers. Too many people feel that their legitimate complaints, suggestions and even patches are unwelcome. Too many people, who have devoted years of outsider effort to promote Ubuntu are feeling like Ubuntu is treating them more as a nuisance than a boon. Mark keeps listing the very convincing reasons for all of this, that are beyond Ubuntu's control: it's not Ubuntu's fault that GNOME 3 did not offer a GNOME-2-like fallback experience at the same time as Oneiric came out; Ubuntu can't please everyone and Unity must remain focused in order to maintain quality moving forward; there's simply not enough time to answer every single complaint. That's all true. But it doesn't make our sense of alienation any less legitimate. On the other hand, it may not be Ubuntu's responsibility to fix this situation. Moreover, the sad fact may be that it's just not a priority: perhaps we, a few loudly unhappy members of the Ubuntu community, are deemed expendable. At the time of this writing, this bug is still marked new, unassigned and of undecided importance. I'm sure we're just counting the days until it is closed as won't fix. Oh, well. I'm willing to admit that I'm blowing a lot of hot air here over nothing at all. This might just be a time of difficult (and necessary?) transition, and by 12.04 Ubuntu will ship to broad popular enthusiasm on all fronts: from people who have never been exposed to free software and are delighted by the purple-and-orange wonder, and from us old fuddy duddies who learned to use a mouse with Windows 95 and refuse to change our crochety habits. ;) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
On 13/11/11 21:24, Dwayne Litzenberger wrote: Allison: The problem expressed in this bug report is that every time a user complains about having a bad experience with the UI, the response has been, WONTFIX. That's simply not true. There are many bugs, including requests for changes in behaviour, which get agreed. The issue here is NOT an unwillingness to listen, on either the part of the developers or the designers. The issue is a portion of the user base which describes won't fix my pet issue as won't fix any issue. I'm not expecting you to implement every half-baked idea that an angry user comes up with, but Mark has effectively said we don't care about you to the very people who use Ubuntu all the time. Oh nonsense. We have actively sought out and fixed issues related to the needs of longstanding and heavy users of the interface. There are lots of blog entries from people saying 'Wow, Unity is the easiest shell to navigate efficiently by keystroke', for example. That is not an accident. Yes, there are scenarios we will not accommodate, but that's not the same as a blanket 'we don't care about you'. Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
If the phenomena Mark describes is right, it's a matter of selective perception. So maybe it would be helpful to post some links to cases were canonical DID actually fixed usability issues by user request in order to calm the worried ones? (But on the other hand, that won't calm too much as long as my pets issue isn't fixed [to stay in Marks words] ;-) I think, that is the core of many complainants: reduced reliability. some things that worked before, doesn't work now. that shouldn't happen IMHO. and yes, blame Gnome, too.) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Mr Sladen ( Mr Suttleworth): I know that your not a mind-reader as I know that you quite aware of the issues on Unity. However I will list some of them to you and I would much appreciate if you could give me straightforward honest answers. I personally disagree with global menus, the movement of controls on the left, the integration of software center inside Unity, (and much more) but I have read the reasons behind it and I understood them. I won’t also refer on design-bugs like alt-tab, that “tabs” you on another workspace(what is the definition of workspace?), or bugs like not support for dual-monitors. Also I ll try to be well-intensioned and to think that Unity came out at same date as GNOME3 randomly and you were honest that you couldn’t include GNOME 3 on 11.04. Apart of these I have some simple questions 1. Why do you really used Compiz and Nux instead of Clutter and Cogl ? Matter of speed is out of question, plus Clutter is superior over Compiz. Don’t even mention documentation that is important for us. Why should to learn Compiz and Nux when most people know Clutter? So it was about licenses? 2. Why do you really broke up with GS? Was the global menus? Was the notifications? Why you just didn’t fork g-Shell the way you wanted? I know, and you know, it would be easier if you had used g-shell as base, and had built your system on it. 3. What really is the Music Lense? A video-clip is Music or Video for you? This is a minor thing, but it shows the whole concept of Unity. And this is, that Unity is for today, tomorrow is totally unclear to you.. 4. How people can write plugins/add ons/extensions for Unity? Are you proud comparing your API vs Shell JavaScript API? 5. Do you know that Ubuntu dedicated Blogs talk more about Shell rather than Unity? Do you know the opinion of power users about Unity? Do you realize that power users give support for the rest of ones? Do you know that is US that we setup Ubuntu for our friends? You think that Canonical has the man-power to solve users questions and to write extensions for Unity? You think that Ubuntu is so strong brand name that can convince people it is the best option? 6. Don’t you think that Linux Desktop has already a strong diversity? If you don’t like Shell, say it straight, we developed Unity because g-Shell is bad or whatever, just make your points clear. I don’t mind that you created Unity. I don’t even mind that you have Unity as default. It bothers me the fact that you don’t have g-Shell installed and give the option for user to choose on lightDM. But most, it bothers me the fact that once again Canonical didn’t support a great product that Open Source developed, and this is GNOME3. 7. Is Unity the right approach for tablets? With Global Menus, and small buttons with a lot options that you hardly need and use? It was you that you advertise the ability of Unity to run both on Small, Big, and Touch Screens. Even the workspaces won’t work that way on small screens. 8. Have you put side to side GNOME 3, Windows 8 Unity? Do you Mr Sladen and Mr Shuttleworth believe that Unity is prettier ? I ll tell you what I think. I think Unity looks like 5 years old technology. New users that you want to get, wants fancy stuff, usability is a second class citizen. You think that this product will ever get 200m users? Re- think it, before you set targets. 9. You think if you make deals with hardware partners you will sell more Ubuntu? Check again the sales with the Ubuntu pre-installations systems.. Check Nokia’s Maemo... 10. And all the above plus the bugs might be insignificant. You will fix most of them, you will develop a superb compiz, and you will create the perfect Desktop Environment. But I have one huge question that I want you to answer me. And this is the real bug of Unity. What is the future of Unity? Gnome-Shell has no limits in what it can accomplished, both with the technology it uses, along with its clean simple design that let room for everything. Integrated applications that runs inside shell, integrated web-browsers, webkit and html rendering, but more importantly g-shell is a platform to build a DE rather a DE. How do you imagine Unity in 2 years from now? With better scroll-bars and more lenses? You have implemented nice things there, but all of these are minors, nothing really serious... I called Mr Shuttleworth ego because he gives me the impression that he puts Ubuntu over Open Source. With a doubtful product, with unrealistic goals and a software-center that he doesn’t want to share online, isn’t he? And we are not angry users that we question every Canonical’s decision, we are disappointed users that we love Ubuntu and Open Source. Intel OTC and GNOME Foundation gave you 2 great product to use. Just use them. Maemo failed, MeeGo failed, Mac OS (that you copy to a point) failed. do you really think Unity will succeed ? There are solutions to achieve the greatest product, why you deny to follow them?
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
That's simply not true. There are many bugs, including requests for changes in behaviour, which get agreed. The issue here is NOT an unwillingness to listen, on either the part of the developers or the designers. The issue is a portion of the user base which describes won't fix my pet issue as won't fix any issue. Can you provide some examples of Unity UI changes that were reported by *the community* and then implemented? The only one I can think of was the whole Ubuntu Software Store - Ubuntu Software Center and that's pre-Unity. Also, is there some documentation about how Usability Testing is done? As you don't seem to value existing Ubuntu user's input for Usability Testing, they could do Usability Testing on people more familiar with Windows/Mac OS X and submit the results. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
This comment is written with love. A bug report isn't the best place to work through relationship issues, but this comment thread is unhealthy enough that I don't want to leave it standing as-is. Just a brief note here, but what really matters aren't words but actions over time. The Ubuntu community (and I include Canonical as part of that community) has fallen into some unhealthy habits. We've been together for 7 years now, and over the years we've started to take each other for granted. For the community to survive, and for Ubuntu to succeed, this has to change. I was greatly encouraged by UDS-P two weeks ago. For those who didn't attend: things are changing around here, for the better. As one concrete example, we're starting up a team of volunteer designers to work on user journeys across the entire distro. The Unity designers have (joyfully, gladly, and with great enthusiasm) agreed to participate with this team, to share their knowledge and experience, and learn from the knowledge and experience of others in the group. Today, it's just the smallest seed, a tiny trajectory shift, but it's change in the right direction. I have a different message for different parts of the community. For the Unity designers, my message is come out and play, don't worry, they won't bite. And for everyone else, my message is stop biting the Unity designers, you're scaring them away from open participation and if you see someone else biting the Unity designers, gently correct them and teach them how we collaborate around here. You see, communities only work when we *all* play our part in making them work. I love the Ubuntu community in its entirety, both volunteer and paid. I'm not promising you that the next 7 years will be easy, nothing worth doing ever is easy. But I am promising this: if we work together, what we build will be absolutely amazing. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Allison Great news! I think most of us are confident that this bug will be solved, it's just that we're worried about the loss of momentum in the interim. Mark and others keep talking about the future, but I see no reason why some of the damage can't be addressed right now. Let's ensure that 12.04 will be greeted with hope rather than suspicion. I would just add a touch of realism to your plea: the community *does* bite, always has and always will. It is by definition diverse in needs, wants, sensitivity and levels of civility (some of which is related to the especially multicultural composition of the Ubuntu community). Unity designers entering the fray, especially right now, are guaranteed to get some unpleasantness flung their way. I would say that the best advice for those wanting to engage the community is: develop a thick skin. Being offended is a choice: so choose that you will not get offended by any harsh words. Look behind the words towards the pattern of use they represent. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Allison: The problem expressed in this bug report is that every time a user complains about having a bad experience with the UI, the response has been, WONTFIX. I don't see how your comment changes any of that. The fact that you characterize this thread as unhealthy just illustrates the problem with the attitude of everyone @canonical.com who has responded so far: You don't seem to value feedback from people who use Ubuntu every day. Having users who care enough to complain is not unhealthy; it's valuable feedback. I'm not expecting you to implement every half-baked idea that an angry user comes up with, but Mark has effectively said we don't care about you to the very people who use Ubuntu all the time. That's alienating, that's what this bug is all about, and nothing that's been said so far has indicated a change in that attitude. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
** Also affects: ubuntu-community Importance: Undecided Status: New -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Community - It's only a matter of time until someone writes all those tweaks we're looking for. I think the issue of community engagement though is important in fostering these. Hence my suggestion for a tag to basically treat them as feedback for Canonical's purposes and an invitation for contributions from the community. It's not clear from the responses whether making the launcher moveable to other edges would require forking Unity or just submitting patches. There's a huge difference between won't accept patches on the matter because this breaks our design goals and this is a very low priority for us because it doesn't fit in with our project goals and it isn't clear what MS's responses mean in this area. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Trying to force different physical interfaces to use the same GUI is dumb. At best, it'll be a lowest-common-denominator that never helps users kick ass[*]. I generally agree with these points. Design your interfaces around inputs, and use different interfaces for different sets of inputs. Otherwise you end up with a race to the bottom. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
I would like to thank Mark Shuttleworth for his straight talking which has cleared the fog in my head. For weeks I have been using (fighting) Unity with a blind faith that it will refine into a likable and productive Desktop UI that smallish businesses would be seduced by consequently buying into Cannonical support. Finally I now realise that Unity is not aimed at such productive Desktop PC users and it is time for me to give-up fighting it. As Mark Shuttleworth said, there are other options available under the Ubuntu umbrella. I am staying with Ubuntu but moving to 'Ubuntu Classic with no effects'. Classic is clean, fast, unobtrusive, readily adaptable. Everything a UI should be. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Hello all, I must admit that was the most interesting mailing list I ever read. What was the outcome of it? Nothing, nothing at all. I am very disappointed that people cannot tell the difference between a community and a company. Is not accident that Mr Shuttleworth mentioned Android and Windows as a paradigm. Should be 100% transparency on a company product ? Obviously not. Community should know the company decisions? Only on a very basic point. Mr Shuttleworth is a selfish and clever guy. What he misses? Vision. To be more honest he has vision, but his ego blinds it. His realism blinds his fantasy. I am not accusing Mr Shuttleworth for nothing, the opposite I admire what he has achieved so far. But I was wondering, is Mr Shuttleworth the best man to take design decisions? The real bug on Unity isn’t the transparency on its design, but the design of Unity its self. Unity on my unimportant opinion is a bad product comparing to g-Shell on Windows 8 interface. I won’t mention the reasons (I guess even Mark knows them), instead I will give the solution. Mr Shutteworth fork Gnome-Shell, and make your Unity this way. Is some ridiculous the fact (or excuse) that you cannot move dash because it involves to much work. Use shell, it is easy there, and keep on mind, is never to late to change your decision. If Unity hadn’t the huge Ubuntu user-base behind it, would be a dead project by now. But Mr Shutteworth please please don’t count on user loyalty so much. I’m one I left Ubuntu (after 6 years) because of version 11.04 and I personally know about 20 more people. Well for me the software development policies of Canonical are quite right and straitforward, Ubuntu is superb, Unity is bad. And as Mr Shuttleworth said, if you don’t like it, don’t use it. It’s fair enough :) Regards, - alex -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Here's a recent Slashdot writeup of the situation, with many great comments as usual (a.k.a., whining): http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/11/11/1752226/linux-mint-the-new- ubuntu It's a depressing read. (Also, of course, sensational: there's no actual proof that Ubuntu users are switching to Mint in droves.) Again, I don't think any fault here is Unity itself, which I am convinced is a terrific and well thought-out shell, but in the abject failure of the Ubuntu project to satisfyingly explain Unity and its evolution to Ubuntu's own community of users. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
On Wed, Nov 09, 2011 at 07:41:38AM -, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: On 08/11/11 19:31, kfsone wrote: However: The direction and changes of 11.x *suggest* to us that Ubuntu is swapping from desktop to sub-desktop focus for it's primary distribution. No. What's happening is that the new form factors are being integrated into Ubuntu, just as they will be integrated into MacOS and Windows. We'd just like to be ahead of the curve. Some day, you will be able to carry a phone, and dock it to a keyboard, mouse and display and use it as a full desktop with all your apps and data. Or use it as a tablet, in a different dock. So, if I understand correctly, you're saying that there will be *one* interface that will work across tablets, phones, and desktops? I certainly hope not, because tablets, phones, and desktops are *physically* different interfaces. It's like trying to emulate a mouse with a joystick, or vice versa---it's possible, but it just doesn't work well. A keyboard and mouse provide a very rich physical interface. Tablets and phones offer more portability at the cost of a more restricted physical interface. I don't *ever* want to have those restrictions when I'm using a keyboard and mouse. Trying to force different physical interfaces to use the same GUI is dumb. At best, it'll be a lowest-common-denominator that never helps users kick ass[*]. The KDE folks have a much more promising idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28KDE%29 The idea is to let the same applications use different interaction models, depending on what kind of workspace they're running on. [*] http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2005/05/users_dont_care.html -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Alex: It's probably useful if you spell out what you've discovered that is broken about Unity and needs looking into (I'm so, I'm not a mind reader—so even if you feel that both yourself and Mark know the item you have in mind, myself and others following likely don't know). A lot of the time, what Mark is doing is breaking deadlocks (aka making design decisions) are in the circumstances when a data-driven solution has not been forthcoming. Dwayne: yes, separate interaction models is what eg. Unity and the rest of the interface already do. You have different interaction models for different situations. So in Unity you move the mouse leftwards to open the Launcher, but with multi-touch you use a gesture that is a swipe *rightwards*. Similarly, for a PDF reader like Evince, you click little buttons for Zoom/Rotate with a pointer, but with multi-touch you just interact with the content area directly. This is why the overlay scrollbars are there: they are a user-interface element that /can/ be used with a pointer, but which then only appears in a passive (feedback) mode when using multi-touch for interaction directly with the canvas/content, and occupies the least about of real-estate in doing so. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
As a Ubuntu Member and Contributor I have to say that it saddens me to see so a heated discussion in the bug tracker and I personally feel that Community engagement is better here than any other distro or FOSS project. I understand some people are up in arms about Unity and usability issues and that there are some who have chosen to leave the community over the introduction of Unity. I personally am a Gnome2.32 fan and love simplistic panels and I swore for many months I would never use Unity as a full time desktop and even considered moving to Xubuntu but in the end I noticed that a lot of people I respect (Hardcore Devs) were making the plunge with little or no complaint and I gave Unity a spin and now it is what I use by default. I'm still concerned that Unity is not nearly as customize-able as Gnome2.32 but it is a young product and needs nurturing and growth before we can expect it to be as flexible as other Desktop Environments. In closing I think there can be much done to optimize the Ubuntu development process and perhaps even our community as a whole after all that's what we call progress and sometimes progress takes time. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Indicators are menus. All menus behave that way. Is dash also a menu? Because it behaves the same way. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@ Tal Liron In their rush to hate on Unity, people are forgetting how keyboard-centric Unity is. Not me. For me, the fact that that keyboard centrism comes at the cost of huge regressions in mouse-centric usability is what kills it for me (that and some configurability issues, but many of those come from GNOME 3 and weren't in the GNOME 2 based Unity in 11.04, and thus aren't Canonical's fault). I'm used to being able to switch windows (or minimize a window) with a single click to a screen-edge target (the edges of the screen are the fastest to access because you don't have to worry about overshooting with the mouse. You can thus slam the mouse in the general direction of the screen edge to get it there as quickly as possible). Window management is the most common task I perform on my desktop, so it's important that I be able to do it quickly. Having multiple windows of the same program be smashed into one icon on the launcher means that accessing any window that's not the only window running for its program requires an extra click (this may be mitigated if the window isn't minimized or covered by another, but it's still not a screen-edge target in that case). It's made worse by the fact that the size of the launcher icons along the screen edge is a good deal smaller than taskbar buttons were (which makes them a smaller target that I have to aim more carefully to hit, which slows me down). Then there's the fact that the launcher's merging of quick-launch and window management functionality interferes greatly with its functionality as a launcher: Linus famously complained about similar problems in GNOME Shell: When he had a terminal open and clicked on the icon he'd used to launch it, his original terminal window got brought into focus, rather than a new one being launched. But it doesn't just apply to the terminal: It can apply to Nautilus, or gcalctool, or gedit, or OpenOffice. (Come to think of it, this goes straight against Mark's assertion that clicking twice on an icon should generally do one thing twice). Even with an option in a context menu that allows opening another copy of the program associated with the icon, it's still two clicks instead of one. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Jon Brase - use middle mouse button (click the wheel). -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Mark Many of us came to Ubuntu from other distros seeing a vital combination of two components: - A viable desktop experience, - The offer of Long Term Stable. I can only speak for the folks who introduced me to Ubuntu and the folks I've brought with me, but we are confused: We'd tied that LTS notion with forward-going Ubuntu support for a Linux alternative to Win/Mac on the desktop. However: The direction and changes of 11.x *suggest* to us that Ubuntu is swapping from desktop to sub-desktop focus for it's primary distribution. Let me put it as succinctly as I can: to many of us outside of Cannonical it seems like you've done this: $ cd /pub/cannonical/ubuntu-spins $ ls -d ubuntu-default ubuntu-default - desktop-spin $ ln -fs netbook-spin ubuntu-default $ rm ubuntu-netbook # redundant now And we're trying to figure out if the next step is $ rm -rf desktop-ubuntu or $ ln -fs desktop-spin desktop-ubuntu I also understand that you're shifting focus to branded sales of desktops, but anyone who has a non-boxed/branded desktop is likely to have just ever-so slightly unusual of a configuration of hardware. If Unity is to omit any configuration that allows for adaptation to hardware/locality configurations, then such a user is not target audience and should be made aware and/or directed to a power user spin or something. At heart here is the question of: Is the Unity philosophy all options are bad or is there a line? Can I tell it what language I speak? Can I tell it to render text right-to-left? Can I tell it which side of the screen is my natural anchor, not just for text but for the launch bar? Can I tell it to use high-contrast colors because my sight is impaired? Can I tell it what colors to use because I have color blindness? Can I customize the color of every line, widget, character, use-case and time of year? If you can create policies to answer these questions, I think you have a great opportunity (regardless of the specific answers to the issues of my own specific interest) for Unity, because arbitrary limits on configurability in a device are equally as bad as too few or too many. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
I think it's pretty clear that part of the community (me included) is mad because Gnome 3 didn't live up to half the expectations we had from Gnome 2. If it was as good, we wouldn't care about Unity as we have the option to easily install it. Remainder: should Unity not exists, we'd be stuck with Gnome 3. @Mark - We seem to like Unity better than Gnome 3, otherwise you wouldn't see us here complaining. It's just that Unity still seems too half assed and the community feels abandoned as requests are denied/ignored. @Community - It's only a matter of time until someone writes all those tweaks we're looking for. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
by the way, mint is doing it exactly right IMHO: What we’re sure of, is that if people aren’t given the choice they will be frustrated and our vision of an Operating System is that your computer should work for you and make you feel comfortable. So with this in mind, Gnome 3 in Linux Mint 12 needs to let you interact with your computer in two different ways: the traditional way, and the new way, and it’s up to you to decide which way you want to use. http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1851 This is so true! further: For this, we developed “MGSE” (Mint Gnome Shell Extensions), which is a desktop layer on top of Gnome 3 that makes it possible for you to use Gnome 3 in a traditional way. You can disable all components within MGSE to get a pure Gnome 3 experience, or you can enable all of them to get a Gnome 3 desktop that is similar to what you’ve been using before. Of course you can also pick and only enable the components you like to design your own desktop. The Mint Gnome Shell Extensions seems to re a really good way to give the user the choice between traditional and new GUI methods, the user is in full control. The reactions there http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1851 are also very positive. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Oliver: it's certainly true that the Unity work has evolved out of and is a continuation of the Ubuntu Netbook Remix interface research work. However, as the substantial user base are desktop users, it's fairly unlikely that Ubuntu would be wishing to upset those existing users intentionally—you note that folks introduced you to Ubuntu, and you yourself encouraged more folks to follow after that. It's likely that you are all desktop users. I'd like to explore your LTS concern(s). Currently an LTS release is supported for five years on the desktop (it used to be three years on the desktop). That means that what /was/ released, is going to be supported going forward and continue to be usable, in a fully supported fashion, for at least half a decade. You've still obviously got some concerns, or questions, around LTS and the desktop experience. Could you narrow those down specifically and I'll try and respond to them? I believe at the recent UDS-P in Orlando, it was specifically mentioned in Mark Shuttleworth's keynote that there would be a focus on power users during the cycle. The keynote section on power-users starts at the following offset: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bOwyGYTMv8#t=22m38s Ubuntu's success to-date has generally been around choosing good defaults. You've asked the question Can I tell it what language I speak? It's more interesting to thing about the wider issue; eg. Can the system make a educated, fairly reliable guess at what language(s) I speak?. The positioning of the Launcher is a similar one, it's where it is because that's where other stuff isn't–position shuffling is not that interesting; instead it might be better to investigate from a higher-level design perspective if the Launcher needs to exist at all. Look at the wider puzzle rather than the narrow solution. Adding options for the sake of it is bit like Henry Ford's faster horses quote: If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse. Ford successfully produced and marketed a product that the buyers had not imagined before. Suffice to say, horses still exist and have not been wiped out as a result, instead the provision has allowed horses to be optimised for their /current requirements/. Bazon: What Mint have been doing with the GNOME 3 Shell MGSE extensions is quite interesting and it's pleasing to see additional Linux distributions start to take an interest in desktop design. Ultimately the work that both Mint and Ubuntu have been doing will roll back into a better desktop experience for Free Software desktop users in the long- run, as the various open projects and research cross-percolate. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
On 08/11/11 19:31, kfsone wrote: However: The direction and changes of 11.x *suggest* to us that Ubuntu is swapping from desktop to sub-desktop focus for it's primary distribution. No. What's happening is that the new form factors are being integrated into Ubuntu, just as they will be integrated into MacOS and Windows. We'd just like to be ahead of the curve. Some day, you will be able to carry a phone, and dock it to a keyboard, mouse and display and use it as a full desktop with all your apps and data. Or use it as a tablet, in a different dock. Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
When Linus says he uses XFCE, someone's ears ought to perk up. Linus is no Joe Lunchbucket user, afraid of new things. So, I installed XFCE and am happy as a clam. I refuse to use KDE as they have features you can't turn off that consume CPU and power. Thankfully I have choices. If I wanted to use the keyboard all the time, I'd go back to commandline interface and see if Firefox and LibreOffice would port SVGA versions. Of course they would be full screen all the time and I would have to switch workspaces with the ctrl-alt-F? combination... hey! That sounds like Unity! :) Ric -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
This is an interesting discussion when I look at the entire situation, I probably see it a different way the organizational structure is a mashup of different elements some of the integration between the tools are as MS would put it are suboptimal I know there is no time to to think ways to improve the structure of larger organizations no idea what would be better there are all manner of ways to communicate for real work, it's hard to beat email or even mailing lists the lack of organization just shear volume, can be overwhelming this format [launchpad] is good, possibly a limited access version. Anyone could read only certain people [groups] could post some of us would be quite interested in following along the discussions of the big picture, while keeping the devs from having to interact with too many people, the time constraints are very real do need to be respected -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Jon Brase I'm not sure how useful it will be for Canonical to ignore group #1. Many of us have offered up Ubuntu to friends and family as a replacement for Windows. This includes our computer illiterate friends and family. Most of these people see the interface as the operating system. Windows to them is the explorer interface. Linux and Ubuntu to them is Gnome 2. If you look at the desktop of someone who's had Linux as their operating system for a few months, it probably looks pretty different than stock. Different colors, applets on the top bar, etc. Multiple windows open... Now, how do you expect users to react to a massive UI change? Why do you think Windows 95 through 7 looks pretty much the same? People don't like huge change in their chosen DE. This will shake their confidence that Ubuntu will remain a stable environment for them. I understand that this change has been rather forced on Ubuntu. But almost any interface would have been a better choice for the x86 Desktop version. This interface is obviously meant for touchscreens like tablets. There is a reason people don't use Android on their desktop and laptop computers. Ubuntu has always been a Desktop/Laptop distro, and I am saddened to see it moving away from that. Mark Shuttleworth: I think in the near future all laptops will have sophisticated multi-touch hardware. All the hardware vendors that are working on touch are talking to Ubuntu. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
All I want is to move the d@#% launch bar to a different side of the screen. I can do this with Windows. I can do this with OS X. I can do this with GNOME. I cannot do this with Unity, because some billionaire says it does not fit with his vision. Remind me again why I use open source software? Oh, right, because it puts me in control... Utterly ludicrous. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
There is a reason people don't use Android on their desktop and laptop computers. Absolutely. The fact is, for any of us who spend time thinking about the tradeoffs of command-line vs GUI interfaces, one fact is amazingly clear: Interfaces must be designed around their inputs, not the other way around. If inputs are sufficiently different (touchscreen vs mouse and keyboard), the interface will need to be different as a result. Think about it this way. From a commend line I can provide the computer more information faster than I can from a GUI. However, the computer can give me more information faster from a GUI. The inputs and outputs are fundamentally different and so GUI's can never have the same degree of functionality readily available that a CLI can (imagine using a GUI to accomplish what the ftp command get foo.c ~/sources/foo/bar.c does), but many things (surfing the web) are much better in a GUI even given this tradeoff. I am convinced systems with keyboards and mice are fundamentally different from systems without them in similar ways. Wouldn't it be cool if we could have a very good, consistent interface across tablets, smart-phones, laptops, and desktops? Sure, but I think this is impossible for reasons of mathematics. From my perspective, Gnome 2.3 is the best desktop UI ever developed. Of course it would be awkward on touchscreens. Similarly Android and iOS are great touchscreen interfaces but would be horrible to use with a mouse. Apple knows this. Google knows this. Even Microsoft knows this. I have to wonder why Linux UI developers seem to have abandoned all the great work done so far to pursue such a pipe dream. Watching the Windows 8 demos, I keep thinking that Microsoft has learned the right lessons from us, and we (btw, not just Ubuntu, but also GNOME) are learning the wrong lessons from them. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@einhverfr I think some people are interpreting Mark's announcement through their own bias. Unity may be friendlier towards tablets than most desktop interfaces, but there's still a long way to go, and indeed that's why the Unity team is setting such a far-off date for tablet support. Try for yourself: install Unity on a tablet and see. I did it, and it's horrible. A lot of the problem is not Unity itself, so much as GTK and the mouse-oriented design of every important desktop application. You might be able to launch GIMP on a tablet, but you can forget about doing anything useful with it without connecting at least a mouse, and hopefully a keyboard, too. Indeed, there's a very good reason why both Apple and Google decided a fresh start was needed. Current apps are simply broken on tablets, and there's no meta-way to make them just work. The whole free software community needs to make the shift. Standards need to be set. APIs. I have no doubt that Ubuntu will take the lead on this. (I just keep hoping they'll include more of the community of their supporters in the effort.) In their rush to hate on Unity, people are forgetting how keyboard- centric Unity is. It's more keyboard-centric than GNOME 2, GNOME 3, and really almost every desktop shell out there. This came as a pleasant surprise to me when Unity first came out, and indeed Mark is entirely correct when he says that Unity very much takes power users, who are CLI freaks, in mind. A great amount of effort has been put into making sure that Unity indeed would unify everything from keyboard to mouse to touch in the future, with the same exact base feature set, and it shows very well. Nobody has done so well in this task before, and Unity designers deserve the full credit for this breakthrough. I keep emphasizing this: but I'm nagging on this bug so much because I really do love Unity, and would like to see it go the extra mile towards unifying all my computers. As of now, I have to do weird things on my multi-monitor desktop in order to use it. But, again, I'm willing to make the effort in order to stay as close to the Unity paradigm. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
I wouldn't mind if they want to the keep the launcher on left forever. How many of us really change any default layout. KDE keeps the taskbar at bottom and I dont change that. Win 7 has it's default at bottom, How many them change. NOT MANY RIGHT? Only thing as a user I ask Unity developers is to make it just work wherever it is. For Eg: 1) More responsive. 2) Less resource hungry. ( It works for me on 2GB Ram but not on low graphics). My thoughts on launchbar actions: It's more consistent behavior if the icon I pressed minimizes the app back. Because as earlier pointed out even application indicators like indicator-menu, message indicators all use same behavior. Task bar's of these have similar behavior : Gnome 2 , KDE, Win 7. The problem is we as user of all these DE have this in our mind about how a dock should work. On the other hand, Mark thinks in the other way about a launcher. with all due respect I ask Mark why should it be called a launcher (which makes you think that it's for just launching an app), call it a dock where many features could be added on. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
We have about 20 million users today. We want 200 million users by 2014. The extra 180 million users are not in the Ubuntu community today, so you can in a sense say that it's true - Unity was not developed for the Ubuntu community of today, it was developed with love for the Ubuntu community of the future. You're invited to that community, but not required to join it. I guess the obvious question is, at what point do you start including Ubuntu users in your usability testing? What's the plan to get from here to there? Kathy Sierra (known for the now-defunct blog, Creating Passionate Users) often asks her audience the following question: What do you want your users to be saying about you: A. Their product is awesome. B. Their service is awesome. C. Their company is awesome. Her answer is: D. I'm awesome. As a user of Ubuntu, how does Unity make me awesome? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@M.S.#39: Also, there are many GUI elements in ubuntu which toggle show/hide by click without changing appearance (@#20), e.g. most indicators. Which indicators are you referring to? Pretty much every indicator in Unity has this this 'one click: show, next click: hide' behaviour: indicator for network-manager, for sound, for bluetooth, indicator-me, indicator-messages, indicator for dropbox... ...even the dash and the workspace switcher (button in the launcher!) have this show/hide behaviour. so for me, it seems to be more consistent, if the other buttons in the launcher also would provide show/hide functionality. And about my doubt concerning the usability testings: I'm really curious whether someone could tell me, which change in the GUI caused the change from october-report: http://design.canonical.com/2010/11/usability-testing-of-unity/ concerning multitasking (Multitasking on Unity is disconnected and difficult at times) to april-report: http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usability-april-2011/ (Multitasking: (...) This is fixed.) I tested each version of Unity and at least I've seen no change in the way multitasking was handled. (And multitasking in Unity IS one of those need-many-more-clicks-than-before things which really bother in Unity...) But after all, I'd like to say: Don't get me wrong, I'm still a fan of Ubuntu. I'm only confused by its direction change, but now I'm personally happy with Xunbuntu, Compiz and the exelent ambiance design. Thanks for that anyway. :-) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
As a point of reference, Windows 8's Metro user interface is going to provide a Windows Classic workspace for backwards compatibility. This is an area that Microsoft has consistently gotten right over the years, and thus helped them maintain their position in the market. Even when they make advances, they always retain a layer of backwards compatibility to avoid disparaging their existing customers (and thus losing them). Taking this lesson to heart (I believe) would greatly improve the growing tension that Canonical's go-it-alone mindset is generating in the community. Thus, the simple and obvious solution to the Unity problem (and most of these NIH design decisions) is to retain a backwards-compatible layer (e.g. GNOME interface in a Unity workspace). So, anyway, if you don't want to risk losing more-and-more users and positive mind-share about Ubuntu, you're going to have accept the reality that backwards-compatibility needs to be a key tenant of your community involvement and design approach. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
As a point of reference, Windows 8's Metro user interface is going to provide a Windows Classic workspace for backwards compatibility. This is an area that Microsoft has consistently gotten right over the years... Why do we always point to Microsoft and Apple as if they're somehow a reference implementation of great UI design that we just need to copy? There is *no* point in trying to replicate what Microsoft and Apple have done: Almost nobody who is happy with Windows or OS X is going to switch to Ubuntu unless Ubuntu is substantially better in some way. Ubuntu's default UI needs to design for its strengths, rather than trying to compete on MS and Apple's home turf. Those strengths are: 1. (GNU/)Linux 2. The community So, the default Unity launcher could have icons for: 1. Terminal 2. Connect via IRC to #ubuntu Instead, Unity (along with every other desktop Linux project) takes the best CLI in the world...and hides it. Instead of designing a dead-end UI exclusively for novice users---something that Microsoft and Apple already do reasonably well---why not focus on: 1. Designing for power users 2. Making it easy for novices to become power users 3. Avoiding wasting users' time Nobody does that well today, but Ubuntu could probably pull it off, and it would be *huge* step for education, for computer literacy in general, for software freedom, and toward getting rid of things like software patents, ACTA, and the DMCA, since those issues affect power users most directly. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
I have effectively abandoned Ubuntu as a result of Unity. I have been a
log time converter of friends and family and EVERY person I updated to
unity dislikes it immensely. I have moved back to debian proper and
have stopped promoting Ubuntu.
I don't post here often but I lurk. I do feel that Ubuntu devs are
looking at users outside of the current user base almost exclusively. I
don't feel that any attention is given to the 20m or so people out there
using the product.
There is a truth that cannot be overlooked. The existing users are your
'dealers' or ambassadors. They are the ones to lure future users in.
How to get from 20m users to 200m users? Certainly don't abandon the
first 20m, you will lose your sales force.
I like the dash concept ('task bar' in the common language), I just
don't think the current execution is great. I have been moving my task
bar/launcher to the left edge forever (gentoo days, circa 2002, fluxbox)
and am happy with this move. My issue with unity is first of all
performance, which compared to a classic gnome panel, xfce, or windows
7, is sluggish. I have seen unity on no less than 100 computers so this
is not a hardware specific thing, this is universal. Secondly, there
MUST be the ability to customize it to some degree. OSX being the lease
customizable, still is must better than unity in this regard.
and so back to the core issue. There have been hundreds of suggestions
that are squashed with prejudice and the topic abandoned. GREAT
suggestions. Not massive, unreasonable wants, but real, obvious gaps in
the product.
So, this is canonical's game. they can choose to take the suggestions
or not. I am not angry, I don't feel ripped off. But I exercise my
right to use something else. What is my impact? probably not huge, but
I do own the largest pro-linux computer service and sales shop in my
town of 200k people.
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[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Why do we always point to Microsoft and Apple as if they're somehow a reference implementation of great UI design that we just need to copy? There is *no* point in trying to replicate what Microsoft and Apple have done: Almost nobody who is happy with Windows or OS X is going to switch to Ubuntu unless Ubuntu is substantially better in some way. If you re-read that post a bit more carefully, I'm sure you'll quickly notice that my underlying message says nil about UI design itself (and whether or not other OS vendors get it right or not is irrelevant), but instead pinpoints backwards-compatibility as the foundationally relevant issue at play here (i.e. Windows 8 users will be very satisfied once they discover they still have their familiar Windows classic UI). Again the problem here (in my opinion) is that Unity has no Ubuntu classic (or GNOME classic) workspace to address the backwards- compatibility issue of the human psyche of existing Ubuntu users. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
As far as I can tell, this is all about one issue - moving the launcher. The left-side launcher is the single point of failure in Unity, which is otherwise a good interface. For whatever design or user testing suggested that every single user wants the launcher on the left, in the real world, some people want it on the bottom or on the right, and some of those people aren't going to use Ubuntu at all if Unity doesn't let them put it there. Does anyone seriously think Ubuntu will have 200 million users in three years if those users can't even move the dock? Ubuntu isn't competing with Android and iOS. Those are mobile operating systems. Ubuntu is a desktop operating system. Eventually, the community is going to patch the launcher to work correctly, because in the eyes of the community, a launcher that doesn't move is incorrect. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
As far as I can tell, this is all about one issue - moving the launcher. I think the launcher just illustrates a deeper problem with the *attitude* that's been steering Unity development: making the experience better for 180 million hypothetical new users, while neglecting the experience of the 20 million actual users. IMHO, the whole Unity team needs to take an hour to watch this: http://www.dustinkirk.com/2010/06/06/kathy-sierra-creating-passionate-users/ -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
As far as I can tell, this is all about one issue - moving the launcher. Absolutely not, there are many more issues- As I said before, the things that trouble me most are bad window and workspace management: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/683170 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/689733 https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/734253 https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/740862 Also Global menu: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/682788 but also general problems: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/696214 https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/751630 -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Canonical (and Mark S. in particular) are openly hostile towards the vast majority of Ubuntu users who have a strong dislike for Unity and want it removed, or at least made optional. Many of us are now, or will soon be, ex-Ubuntu users. Ubuntu has really jumped the shark with this one. Apple can get away with the this is where we're going whether you like it or not routine. Canonical can not. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
There is more than one issue with Unity, absolutely, and I probably should have phrased it this way - the community engagement issue is going to come to a head over the launcher. It's likely to be the first flaw a new user encounters in Unity, and certainly generates more forum posts than any of Unity's other quirks. The difference between Linux and commercial operating systems is that Linux is community-driven, and while Mark makes a good point about dispersed efforts hurting development, the community has the ultimate decision-making power. In this case, it's Canonical's job to lay out a vision; it's the community's job to fill in the details. It's only a matter of time before the community patches in a movable dock. The demand is there, and the implementation can be done by one person. The question in my mind is how Canonical will respond to that patch - will they give preference to their design or to the community's wishes? -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
On 04/11/11 15:49, Bazon wrote: Pretty much every indicator in Unity has this this 'one click: show, next click: hide' behaviour: indicator for network-manager, for sound, for bluetooth, indicator-me, indicator-messages, indicator for dropbox... ...even the dash and the workspace switcher (button in the launcher!) have this show/hide behaviour. so for me, it seems to be more consistent, if the other buttons in the launcher also would provide show/hide functionality. Indicators are menus. All menus behave that way. Mark -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
@Mark Shuttleworth: Nonsense, again. Ubuntu has *always* aimed for usability, always gone the extra mile to make it easy to install and easy to embrace and easy to share Linux. I don't think it's cool to be too cool for that mission, but if you are in fact too cool for that mission, please don't denigrate the work of those of us who care about it. It's not a matter of being too cool for the mission of making Ubuntu more usable. You've got two types of people complaining about Unity. Neither is too cool to support said mission. One group has a workstyle for which GNOME 2 is more usable than Unity and feels abandoned by the disappearance of GNOME 2 (and the fact that GNOME 3's fallback mode is a less suitable replacement than XFCE), and some members of that group don't realize that it's GNOME, not Canonical, that's responsible for there not being a suitably back-compatible replacement for GNOME 2. I belong to this group (namely, the part of it that recognizes that the disappearance of GNOME 2 is not Canonical's fault). I generally agree with them about the usability of Unity (given that a good part of the OS industry seems to be going to similar interfaces, a good chunk of the population probably has a work style for which Unity is usable. For me, however, it's totally unusable). I do, however, realize that 1) Canonical is pursuing a user base that may have an easier time with Unity, and 2) it's probably more productive to complain to the GNOME project, given that it seems much more reasonable to me for a distribution to switch DE's if it doesn't think its current DE's interaction model is the best for its target users (given that users can always go back to the previous DE) than for a DE to suddenly switch interaction models (given that a DE's core users are the users that find its interaction model to be the best in the world, and that if a DE switches models, its original model ceases to be available). This first group is making a lot of complaints that I think have been wearing your (and the rest of the Canonical team's) nerves thin, with unfortunate consequences for the second group. The second group, I think, is the one you really need to listen to. This is made up of people (like Tal Liron) that like Unity's interaction model, but find it lacking in some small way or other (as opposed to the big ways that I and others in the first group find it lacking). The important thing about this group is that it is likely to be at least somewhat representative of the new users you're aiming to acquire (assuming that the analysis that new users are more likely to be attracted by Unity is accurate). If you want to solve bug #1, you're going to have to listen to this group, especially insofar as Microsoft has implemented the features they're asking for. The second group is complaining about the fixed launcher (From screenshots I've seen, the Windows 7 task bar remains movable, as does the OS X dock) and the minimization issue (Windows has been training 90% of your potential users for years that the place you click to maximize a minimized window can also be clicked to minimize it when it's maximized, and while I haven't used Win7 a lot, I don't think it's changed anything). When you receive a complaint about Unity, ask yourself which group it's coming from. If it's coming from the first group, ignore it. We're just feeling abandoned (and not really by you) and don't know where to go next, and that makes people grumpy. If it's coming from the second group, or from both groups, take it *very* seriously, and ignore it at your peril, as it could very well be an issue that new users will have when switching. @Art Cancro: Canonical (and Mark S. in particular) are openly hostile towards the vast majority of Ubuntu users who have a strong dislike for Unity and want it removed, or at least made optional. It *is* optional. One can install XFCE and forget that Unity even exists. Many of us are now, or will soon be, ex-Ubuntu users. Why? When Lucid hits end-of-life, I will almost certainly continue using Ubuntu. I will almost certainly *not*, however, start using Unity. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
I think the community is too hard on Shuttleworth and his team (maybe even selfish), they are truly trying to achieve a vision here, lets honor this. I honor what they have done for Linux and open source thus far. I mean I use Launchpad for my own open source projects exclusively and I understand allot about making decisions. Sometimes you have a vision and to keep that enthusiastic flame burning, at times you have to do something exciting with your own creation, in the end it benefits everyone if it succeeds. Let Canonical push through their vision, if Unity makes it to the Desktop of millions it will benefit us enormously. I like to think of myself as a Linux power user, Ubuntu is much more than the desktop environment, don't forget the excellent backbone it runs on. Although Unity does not fit my needs, I moved over to Xfce, and I fell in love with it. I honestly think there is nothing to complain about. If you don't like Unity and call yourself a power user, its time to more on and let them do their work, as a power user you should realize that there are beautiful alternatives. Mark, please don't think the community is unappreciative of what you have done so far, they are just worried that their favorite Open Source tool might be falling apart, while the exact opposite is happening. I think you might want to market Xubuntu for power users more as it grossly underestimated, the solution is there, people just need to realize the alternative is great! -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Re TitanKing: main problem here, averadge user don't know about launchpad, bugreport, maillist e.c. Moreover, they didn't even know that something broken, or work not so good, as supposed to be. 2011/11/3 TitanKing 882...@bugs.launchpad.net I think the community is too hard on Shuttleworth and his team (maybe even selfish), they are truly trying to achieve a vision here, lets honor this. I honor what they have done for Linux and open source thus far. I mean I use Launchpad for my own open source projects exclusively and I understand allot about making decisions. Sometimes you have a vision and to keep that enthusiastic flame burning, at times you have to do something exciting with your own creation, in the end it benefits everyone if it succeeds. Let Canonical push through their vision, if Unity makes it to the Desktop of millions it will benefit us enormously. I like to think of myself as a Linux power user, Ubuntu is much more than the desktop environment, don't forget the excellent backbone it runs on. Although Unity does not fit my needs, I moved over to Xfce, and I fell in love with it. I honestly think there is nothing to complain about. If you don't like Unity and call yourself a power user, its time to more on and let them do their work, as a power user you should realize that there are beautiful alternatives. Mark, please don't think the community is unappreciative of what you have done so far, they are just worried that their favorite Open Source tool might be falling apart, while the exact opposite is happening. I think you might want to market Xubuntu for power users more as it grossly underestimated, the solution is there, people just need to realize the alternative is great! -- You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to the bug report. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken Status in Ayatana Design: New Status in Unity: New Status in Unity 2D: New Status in “unity” package in Ubuntu: Confirmed Status in “unity-2d” package in Ubuntu: Confirmed Bug description: This bug is opened with love. The issue appears to be a communications failure between the people who make Unity and its community of users. The bug is easy to reproduce: open a Launchpad bug about how Unity breaks a common usage pattern, and you get a won't fix status and then radio silence. The results of this bug are what seems to be a sizable community of disgruntled, dismayed and disappointed users, who go on to spread their discontent and ill will. I'm sure this ill will is painful for the awesome folk working on Unity. It's painful for the community, too. For a heartbreaking example, see: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/668415 or https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/733349 The bug primarily affects Unity, but also affects Ayatana and Ubuntu quite directly. Unity is a rather small program and project in Ubuntu, but -- whether the Unity teams likes it or not -- it is the front face of Ubuntu, and the project and its ability to engage the community is considered as representative of Ubuntu as a whole. I can think of numerous causes for this bug: 1. A lack of transparency. Reasonable bugs seem to get closed because they do not fit in Unity's vision, or are contradicted by the usability tests conducted for Ayatana, for which the team is rightfully proud. However, no details are provided beyond this claim: How does this contradict the vision? Where are the results of the usability tests that apply to this issue? It doesn't help that Mark Shuttleworth, who we look to for leadership, seems to enjoy being tight-lipped about the future specifics of this vision, leaving the community in an anxious wait-and-see position. For example, when the window controls were moved from right to left, many of us were baffled. It took some time until we saw how this fit in Unity's global menu, but until then there was considerable confusion. It *seemed* arbitrary. 2. Marketing failure has caused unreasonable expectations. Unity has become the default shell for most Ubuntu distributions, leading users to expect general usability from it. However, Unity is known to be broken for common multi-monitor setups. This disappointment could have been easily avoided if Unity were the default for laptops and netbooks, but not for desktops. Or if there was a friendly popup opening when Unity were running in multi-monitor mode: The Unity shell currently has limited support for multi-monitor setups. Would you like to switch to GNOME Shell instead? y/n. 3. The Unity team ignores strongly-worded criticism. Unfortunately, some members of the user community lack restraint. Moreover, the wonderfully international dimension of Ubuntu gathers people of various cultures, who do not always natively own English, the lingua franca of Launchpad. So, some
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Here are a few thoughts here that may help move a dialog forward. I speak as someone who supports some Ubuntu deployments, as a user, and as an open source software developer who does a lot of work in my own community. The first thing to recognize is that community engagement is always broken. perfect engagement is impossible. Any open source project can always improve that engagement, so if community engagement is broken, that's a relative and not an absolute statement. As developers we can and should strive for perfection, and one of the strengths of open source software is the interaction that users and developers have. This allows developers to understand user needs, and users to better communicate problems so that they get the right solutions. A second thing to recognize is that not all feature requests are reasonable or should be included. But all feature requests should be considered for further action even if they are not going to be implemented exactly as requested. A feature request is what we get when a user says Hey, this isn't working for me. It takes time to engage with users to better understand needs, workflows, etc. However ultimately one gets a better product if one does. So for example, when I look at the bugs above, I conclude that people are defensive of design decisions and less interested in *why* users are requesting this. If I were managing a project, these feature requests would be considered for further action at a later date, users would be engaged with, with an idea of trying to understand their needs. Now, maybe after we all talk the answer is use a different desktop. Maybe the answer is documenting Unity was not designed for widescreen displays in portrait mode. Maybe the answer is working on finding a mutually acceptable solution. However, with very few exceptions, I don't think it's a good idea to simply say this isn't in line with our design goals and leave it at that. I have seen this sort of interaction before and it never ends well. Of course, Canonical has a moral right to spend their time and resources how they wish. However, from a community perspective, it might be better to be clear as to whether something will not be fixed on Canonical's dime, or whether Canonical is even unwilling to discuss or accept patches on the matter further. If the latter, I think a great deal of sales work needs to be done selling the way things are, and listening to users as to shortcomings. If I were to suggest a fix for this bug it would be as follows: Change bug reports of this sort to a different category (let's call them UI feature requests). Let everyone know that Canonical considers this to be outside of what they want to do. Move requests there. Let other people review those requests and implement them if they want. Canonical can then accept patches. If a feature is not going to be accepted under any circumstances, then work needs to be done understanding why it is being requested, and a mutually acceptable feature request added to that queue. If Canonical is undecided on this latter category, maybe say so when moving? The advantage to this sort of system is that when new features are being considered, this same queue can be reviewed and used as feedback. The features may not be implemented as requested but the needs of the community both to be heard and to have their work flow needs met. Of course, anything that is not a priority for any developer should be delayed until it is a priority for at least one. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
Re: [Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
-- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Friends, I think most of us know how easy it is to switch to GNOME Shell, or even XFCE (or LXDE -- let's not forget it, it's wonderful in its minimalism) in Ubuntu and still stay in a mostly GTK-and-GNOME-like paradigm. For some, that's a perfect solution! But, please try to understand why this is not a good enough solution for some of us. The problem is the bitter taste it leaves in our mouth: a lack of trust in Ubuntu as a whole and its leadership. We have many, many choices for complete operating systems in the free software world, so why advocate and push for Ubuntu if we cannot trust that the project is going in the right direction? Mark has accused some of us of being selfish in trying to push for a specific bug fix. What he fails to understand is that it's not for ourselves that we're pushing. Our personal problems are easily solvable in the free software world in so many other ways. We are frustrated because we think one of the best opportunities we've ever had for a free operating system for everyone might be squandered. It's the same with the threats of That's it! I'm switching to Mint! I think Mark and others just roll their eyes when they see such threats. The threats are indeed a bit pathetic... But, to me they are very worrying because they show that Ubuntu is not doing well enough in the battle for hearts and minds. Famously, the first bug open in Launchpad is this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 Microsoft Windows won the desktop not because of quality, but because of good business positioning. Will Ubuntu win only because it's free software? RedHat is doing OK, but hasn't really conquered. Ubuntu may have to win on a combination of factors: of being good enough as a replacement (meaning it will support all standards), of actual merit and added value it could bring to enterprises and home users, and also some good business deals. But I also believe that popular support, advocacy, and a strong community will be a factor. For example, consider how well the iPhone and Macs have done in replacing BlackBerry and Windows in their traditional corporate turf. The reason is advocacy by private people who love Apple devices so much and keep pushing for them. The I'm switching to Mint! folk are not going to be such people for Ubuntu. Losing them is just really too bad. So, yeah, we can just move on and stop bothering the Unity folk. We know that. But we keep nagging because what is at stake is bigger than just a moveable Launcher. What's at stake is Launchpad bug #1. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Here's a write up on this issue by Bruce Byfield, with many excellent comments following: http://www.linux-magazine.com/content/view/full/51293 -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 882274] Re: Community engagement is broken
Wow, just imagine ALL that lines of code on Ubuntu... -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882274 Title: Community engagement is broken To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/882274/+subscriptions -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
