Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 10:09 Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>
>
>
> Please, folks, if you want something idiot prove to use, pay much money
> for Apple hardware and software! If you are willing to read the fine
> and easy to understand manual and you don't need professional grade
> {,nice} software, but you also don not want to become a power user/geek,
> then use a Linux distro such as an Ubuntu flavour.
I use both Apple and PCs. I use OSX, Linux, and Windows. Throughout
the day. I've no allegiance to Apple OSX, Windows/PC, nor Linux/PC.
I'm here to debunk the BS myth of (for at least the last 20 years)
Apple being more expensive. tl;dr; it isn't, unless your only concern
is cost of entry/hardware cost. Apple flat out doesn't sell low spec
machines and doesn't try to compete in the bottom of the respective
segments where there's far less profit and a far worse user experience
from the hardware due to it being too anemic to do the tasks asked of
it.
The long rant version:
Apple hardware is only maybe barely more expensive when you compare
the actual specifications. When you add in form factor (ultra thin
compared to ultra thin for example) then the gap is usually completely
closed, and often even in Apple's favor. Let's look at Dell vs. Apple
laptops. Compare the Dell Inspiron line to any of Apple's laptops and
it looks like Apple is gouging you when the only thing you look at is
the cost. Look at the specifications. There's nothing in the
Inspiron line that can compete with the compute power and battery life
of the Apple Air (even BEFORE the M1). When Apple was still using x86
the battery life wasn't nearly as much of a factor at the "raw" specs
level, but you still had to step up into the mid-high tier to get the
same CPU in a Dell as you would a Apple Air, MB, or MBP., which
usually ruled out the Inspiron (budget) lineup entirely, and
definitely does today.
Today there’s no Apple equivalent for example to a Dell Inspiron at
$300. You cannot get an apple laptop with only 4Gb of RAM, 128GB NVMe
and a 4 core CPU. Comparing the cheapest Apple laptop at $1000 (the
MacBook Air) you have to step up to XPS or Alienware laptops. Both of
those starting at about $1000 and $950, with the alternate being a
better deal for performance but not truly comparable with the Air nor
the MBP because both of those are far more portable and lighter than
the Alienware laptops. The Alienware will likely have as good or
better graphics performance as the Air, but, isn't comparable, it's
comparing an ultra-thin to a more "full size" laptop, Integrated vs.
Discrete graphics (though the M1 does close the gap pretty
significantly here)
Against the XPS at $1k the Air spanks the crap out of it except for
weight (2.8lbs for the Air, 2.6 for the XPS) Better battery life due
to a smaller silicon process node, and a more efficient, far higher
performance CPU and Integrated GPU. Oh you can get a touch screen in
the XPS (gag) so the XPS has that. To get into the same performance
category as the Apple Air in Dell's XPS line You're looking at
~$1600+. Which you end up with probably the XPS 13" (non Touch) "New
XPS 13" i7-1195G7 your minimum RAM is 16Gb and a 512Gb NVMe. So a
couple upgrades to the base Apple Air M1 to make the RAM and NVMe
match...aaand your Air is $1400. $200 cheaper. Oh and that
top-of-the-line-for-the 13" New XPS still underperforms the M1 in the
Air (not by an awful amount, except in all-cores performance, where
the i7 is half).
And sure Ubuntu (or really any Linux desktop distro) would be much
more responsive user experience on such an anemic spec as the cheapest
Inspiron but that’s not what Dell or Apple sell. It’s Windows or OSX.
And THAT is also why Windows has much bigger market penetration. It’s
pre installed on the cheapest of devices, without regard to the user
experience, to capture more market share for the hardware
manufacturers.
Apple doesn’t even try to capture the low end. You’re going to have a
crappy experience with either modern mainstream desktop OS no matter
whose hardware if you’re only going to get 4Gb of RAM and 128Gb of
storage and integrated graphics. (Lowest priced Inspiron) - to get
those kind of low end specs for a PC from Apple you’re looking at iPad
lineups, which isn’t a PC but a well spec’d tablet.
It’s because of this decision to not capture the low end and thus not
sell what is considered tablet specs as a full PC that gives the
impression of higher cost. In reality when they were still x86 and you
could more easily compare I found price difference was usually $100,
sometimes in Wintel/PC favor, sometimes in Apple’s favor for the
better price.
It’s harder to get a direct comparison now, the M1 in the Air actually
outperforms the Intel i5-1135G7 in the $1000 XPS across the board.
It’s also faster than the available XPS 13” upgrade to the i7! (Which
puts its price at $1330)
Apple has no form factor equivalent to the Alienware. And since going
to M1 chips they no longer
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 6:54 PM Amit wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 6:28 PM Stephen Satchell wrote: > >> >> Amit, are you recommending that Canonical add that plug-in as part of a >> default install/instance of 20.04 et al? >> > > Yes, whoever or whichever company manages Ubuntu, they/it should put > applications menu by default on all flavors to make all flavors user > friendly. > > Amit > I meant all flavors that are developed/owned/maintained by Canonical. Amit -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On 3/21/22 09:21, Amit wrote: On Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 6:36 PM Joel Rees wrote: On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:55 AM Amit wrote: > >[...] > > There is no menu in the default Ubuntu desktop GUI. Menu? I suppose it is not technically a menu, but there is that vertical task-bar-like thing at the left of the screen, and at the bottom of that is a pinpad thingy that brings up screens full of whatever applications are installed. Unless you remove it, there's a suitcase in the task-bar-like thing that allows you to install more. Applications menu have categories (sub-menus) also like internet, system, office, etc. which makes it much easier to find an application. Which is why **variants of Ubuntu as flavors** for different DEs, etc. exist. Bashing the 'vanilla Ubuntu' on that point alone is not going to help 'improve market share'. Take Kubuntu Focus, a group that is trying to drive getting Kubuntu used on to-market systems. Those individuals are bypassing the "Ubuntu is missing some of these features and pretty stuff" to push KDE and Kubuntu onto to-market systems. When discussing 'market share' and 'user base' you have to expand "Ubuntu Desktop" to be "All Official Flavors of Ubuntu" because with the exception of Server they all have different DEs that meet the criterion you're stating. Amit Thomas -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 6:28 PM Stephen Satchell wrote: > > Amit, are you recommending that Canonical add that plug-in as part of a > default install/instance of 20.04 et al? > Yes, whoever or whichever company manages Ubuntu, they/it should put applications menu by default on all flavors to make all flavors user friendly. Amit -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 6:36 PM Joel Rees wrote: > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:55 AM Amit wrote: > > > >[...] > > > > There is no menu in the default Ubuntu desktop GUI. > > Menu? > > I suppose it is not technically a menu, but there is that vertical > task-bar-like thing at the left of the screen, and at the bottom of > that is a pinpad thingy that brings up screens full of whatever > applications are installed. Unless you remove it, there's a suitcase > in the task-bar-like thing that allows you to install more. > Applications menu have categories (sub-menus) also like internet, system, office, etc. which makes it much easier to find an application. Amit -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 6:28 PM Stephen Satchell wrote: > On 3/20/22 11:59 PM, Amit wrote: > > Older people and first time users (who don't have much prior experience > of > > using computers and also who don't know about different ubuntu flavors) > > will type something like "download ubuntu" in google search to download > > ubuntu. > > > > When you do this, currently, you will reach the download page of ubuntu > > 29.04.4 lts. > > > > Most of them will download this image without further research. > > > > And the GUI in this image does not have applications menu. > > Think you have a typo there. When I try that search I get 20.04.4 > instead of 29.04.04 -- which (the former) is what I'm running. > > During my transition from CentOS to Ubuntu, I found a web page of > recommended customization tasks for a new install. One of them is the > Gnome plug-in that provides the categorized drop-down applications menus > in the top bar that I believe you are referring to. So the capability > is there for a full installation via the GUI software installer after > reboot, but not so much for a launch from a thumb drive or DVD-ROM using > the distribution ISO. > > Amit, are you recommending that Canonical add that plug-in as part of a > default install/instance of 20.04 et al? > Yes, whoever or whichever company manages Ubuntu, they/it should put applications menu by default on all flavors to make all flavors user friendly. Amit -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:55 AM Amit wrote: > >[...] > > There is no menu in the default Ubuntu desktop GUI. Menu? I suppose it is not technically a menu, but there is that vertical task-bar-like thing at the left of the screen, and at the bottom of that is a pinpad thingy that brings up screens full of whatever applications are installed. Unless you remove it, there's a suitcase in the task-bar-like thing that allows you to install more. If you let the cursor sit over anything in that task-bar-like thing, captions come up to describe what they do. If you want something like the MSWindowsXP desktop with the task bar at the bottom (by default) and a start-menu like widget in the lower left corner of the screen, XFCE4 is one of the desktop environments that does a nice job of that. It's available as an install option for most flavors of Ubuntu, Debian, Devuan, and so forth. It even runs on openBSD. > Applications have to be searched for. How will a person search for an > application when he/she doesn't know about what the application is actually > called? Somebody shows them once how to hover the cursor over stuff in the vertical task-bar-like thing, how to bring up the applications graphical menu pages (they really are menus, you know, even if they are graphical and page-oriented instead of textual and columnar), and how to use the installer, and the user is off and running and never looks back. Or somebody walks them through installing and setting up XFCE4. > [...] Oh. BTW, the more interesting question you ask is why can't you buy PCs with Ubuntu installed on them instead of MSWindows. Ask Microsoft about their (cough) manufacturer and dealer incentive programs. (I call it bribery/blackmail instead of incentives, myself.) -- Joel Rees http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/p/novels-i-am-writing.html -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On 3/20/22 11:59 PM, Amit wrote: Older people and first time users (who don't have much prior experience of using computers and also who don't know about different ubuntu flavors) will type something like "download ubuntu" in google search to download ubuntu. When you do this, currently, you will reach the download page of ubuntu 29.04.4 lts. Most of them will download this image without further research. And the GUI in this image does not have applications menu. Think you have a typo there. When I try that search I get 20.04.4 instead of 29.04.04 -- which (the former) is what I'm running. During my transition from CentOS to Ubuntu, I found a web page of recommended customization tasks for a new install. One of them is the Gnome plug-in that provides the categorized drop-down applications menus in the top bar that I believe you are referring to. So the capability is there for a full installation via the GUI software installer after reboot, but not so much for a launch from a thumb drive or DVD-ROM using the distribution ISO. Amit, are you recommending that Canonical add that plug-in as part of a default install/instance of 20.04 et al? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 12:24 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 08:24:33 +0530, Amit wrote: > >There is no menu in the default Ubuntu desktop GUI. > > Hi, > > I suspect that still several Ubuntu flavours have got an application > menu by default, much likely even for the latest release. > At least Xubuntu 20.04 has got an application menu by default, this is > what I'm using on an USB stick [1]. > Older people and first time users (who don't have much prior experience of using computers and also who don't know about different ubuntu flavors) will type something like "download ubuntu" in google search to download ubuntu. When you do this, currently, you will reach the download page of ubuntu 29.04.4 lts. Most of them will download this image without further research. And the GUI in this image does not have applications menu. Amit -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 08:24:33 +0530, Amit wrote: >There is no menu in the default Ubuntu desktop GUI. Hi, I suspect that still several Ubuntu flavours have got an application menu by default, much likely even for the latest release. At least Xubuntu 20.04 has got an application menu by default, this is what I'm using on an USB stick [1]. On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 22:36:27 -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote: >I've found I can't set the font to a larger size without hassles and >troubles. This is an issue for all operating systems. An experienced user can manage this to some extend. Probably by replacing grub with another bootloader and doing similar things. However, the issue that some apps don't provide enough space for really large fonts still remains and due to the diversity of Linux, it's not always easy to set system wide fonts for all apps, at least not for a newbie. Some apps allow to set the fonts by their GUI, but if you can't read the preferences in the first place, you can't change the font size. A screen reader might help, but has got it pitfalls, too. Regards, Ralf [1] [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ /bin/ls -hAltr /mnt/v1.ventoy/ total 7.9G -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1.6G Jul 31 2020 xubuntu-20.04.1-desktop-amd64.iso drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4.0K Jan 6 2021 ventoy -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 6.3G Jan 7 2021 xubuntu-20.04.1-desktop-pers1.dat -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 11:59 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 23:44:03 +0530, Amit wrote: > >I have used both windows and linux gui systems a lot. > > So you should be able to describe what from your point of few are the > pitfalls of a Linux desktop environment and the pros of Windows. There is no menu in the default Ubuntu desktop GUI. Applications have to be searched for. How will a person search for an application when he/she doesn't know about what the application is actually called? Consider this example - you go in a hotel and they don't give you a menu but they just give you a handheld device which just has a search box on it and then they ask you to search for the dish you want by typing in the search box. So, what would you prefer - A traditional menu or a handheld device with search box on it? Would you recommend this hotel to other people? Will other people like the handheld device more than the traditional menu? An applications menu having categories is a must for user friendliness just like a traditional menu in a hotel. But the default Ubuntu desktop is lacking that. Amit -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 1:14 PM Stephen Satchell wrote: > > On 3/20/22 8:38 AM, Amit wrote: > > The current default GUI of Ubuntu desktop is not very user friendly. > > Would you please be specific about what is missin or wrong that makes > Ubuntu desktop "not very use friendly"? What would, in your eyes, > improve the desktop experience, particularly for the seniors? > > "It sucks" is not very informative, and doesn't lead to a useful > discussion that can be embraced by developers. One area Linux is not user friendly is a simple-to-use Senior edition. I think this is an instance problem of Accessibility. I've found I can't set the font to a larger size without hassles and troubles. Even if you manage to increase the font size for the particular desktop, the boot and login screens don't honor the settings. It would be nice to set the font size in one place, and have it used everywhere. For senior citizens and visually impaired users. Jeff -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
Let's not lose sight of meeting the requirements and pleasing the taste of the current user base. Will my experience be improved by making the DE more like Windows? Nope! What real benefit do I find in the thought that more people are using my DE? The only users that count are the users we have now. On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 11:29 AM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 23:44:03 +0530, Amit wrote: > >I have used both windows and linux gui systems a lot. > > So you should be able to describe what from your point of few are the > pitfalls of a Linux desktop environment and the pros of Windows. > > As already pointed out, I suspect Jane the elementary school girl and > Jane the grandma are used to small touchscreen optimised operating > systems and are neither comfortable with a Windows, nor with a Linux > desktop environment anymore, unless it imitates touch screen behaviour > and smartphone screen size. > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 23:44:03 +0530, Amit wrote: >I have used both windows and linux gui systems a lot. So you should be able to describe what from your point of few are the pitfalls of a Linux desktop environment and the pros of Windows. As already pointed out, I suspect Jane the elementary school girl and Jane the grandma are used to small touchscreen optimised operating systems and are neither comfortable with a Windows, nor with a Linux desktop environment anymore, unless it imitates touch screen behaviour and smartphone screen size. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 19:06:39 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >no WM at all Oops, I at least should correct this typo. It should read "no DE (desktop environment) at all". Of course, openbox is a WM (window manager). However, most new users nowadays are likely in favour of a desktop environment that degrades the desktop PC to an unportable smartphone. E.g. banks optimise online-banking websites to smartphones and not to desktop PC monitors. -- “Awards are merely the badges of mediocrity.” ― Charles Ives -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 11:37 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > I'm a child of the 80th, born in 1966, so I never migrated from Windows > to Linux. I do not come from Windows, as well as a lot of Linux users > of my age or who are way older than I am. > > My first machine with something Microsoft alike was an Atari ST with a > 80286 hardware emulator, IOW a PCB containing a real 80286 CPU was > soldered. Even this time I didn't use MS-DOS, but DR-DOS, because > Microsoft failed to be reliable from the very beginning. > > Actually I'm not using Ubuntu from an Ubuntu desktop image. I > usually start without a GUI, by e.g. an Ubuntu server install with > disabling the install of several packages or I'm using a DVD or a > Ventoy USB stick with a persistent live Ubuntu flavour such as Ubuntu > Mate, Xubuntu etc., or NomadBSD. My daily used Linux on my desktop > machine is Arch Linux with openbox and no WM at all. I can also boot > into a customised *bunt with openbox (or jwm) and no WM at all. > > I'm running QEMU/KVM and VirtualBox for other operating systems, > including Windows XP, 7 and 10, let alone that I help my neighbourhood > with Windows issues. > > For photos, drawing, drawn and stop motion animation videos, as well > as music productions I'm in favour of Apple. > > I have not the slightest idea what is easier when using the Windows > GUI, than when using BSD, Linux (with openbox and command line, I > usually do most things using command line, instead of e.g. a file > browser and such helpers). I guess people get used to something and are > unwilling tom learn something different, even if it should be easier to > use, they fell it's harder to use, because they are used to something > odd in the first place. > > Btw. half-truth are "bogus" and nothing else. > I first used PC with DOS on it in 1987. I used linux for the first time (no gui) in 1997. I am a software engineer with masters in computer networking from NCSU, NC, USA. I have used both windows and linux gui systems a lot. Amit -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 19:06:39 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >I'm a child of the 80th, born in 1966, so I never migrated from Windows >to Linux. I do not come from Windows, as well as a lot of Linux users >of my age or who are way older than I am. > >My first machine with something Microsoft alike was an Atari ST with a >80286 hardware emulator, IOW a PCB containing a real 80286 CPU was >soldered. Even this time I didn't use MS-DOS, but DR-DOS, because >Microsoft failed to be reliable from the very beginning. > >Actually I'm not using Ubuntu from an Ubuntu desktop image. I >usually start without a GUI, by e.g. an Ubuntu server install with >disabling the install of several packages or I'm using a DVD or a >Ventoy USB stick with a persistent live Ubuntu flavour such as Ubuntu >Mate, Xubuntu etc., or NomadBSD. My daily used Linux on my desktop >machine is Arch Linux with openbox and no WM at all. I can also boot >into a customised *bunt with openbox (or jwm) and no WM at all. > >I'm running QEMU/KVM and VirtualBox for other operating systems, >including Windows XP, 7 and 10, let alone that I help my neighbourhood >with Windows issues. > >For photos, drawing, drawn and stop motion animation videos, as well >as music productions I'm in favour of Apple. > >I have not the slightest idea what is easier when using the Windows >GUI, than when using BSD, Linux (with openbox and command line, I >usually do most things using command line, instead of e.g. a file >browser and such helpers). I guess people get used to something and are >unwilling tom learn something different, even if it should be easier to >use, they fell it's harder to use, because they are used to something >odd in the first place. > >Btw. half-truth are "bogus" and nothing else. My apologies for typos, you probably are able to understand it anyway. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
I'm a child of the 80th, born in 1966, so I never migrated from Windows to Linux. I do not come from Windows, as well as a lot of Linux users of my age or who are way older than I am. My first machine with something Microsoft alike was an Atari ST with a 80286 hardware emulator, IOW a PCB containing a real 80286 CPU was soldered. Even this time I didn't use MS-DOS, but DR-DOS, because Microsoft failed to be reliable from the very beginning. Actually I'm not using Ubuntu from an Ubuntu desktop image. I usually start without a GUI, by e.g. an Ubuntu server install with disabling the install of several packages or I'm using a DVD or a Ventoy USB stick with a persistent live Ubuntu flavour such as Ubuntu Mate, Xubuntu etc., or NomadBSD. My daily used Linux on my desktop machine is Arch Linux with openbox and no WM at all. I can also boot into a customised *bunt with openbox (or jwm) and no WM at all. I'm running QEMU/KVM and VirtualBox for other operating systems, including Windows XP, 7 and 10, let alone that I help my neighbourhood with Windows issues. For photos, drawing, drawn and stop motion animation videos, as well as music productions I'm in favour of Apple. I have not the slightest idea what is easier when using the Windows GUI, than when using BSD, Linux (with openbox and command line, I usually do most things using command line, instead of e.g. a file browser and such helpers). I guess people get used to something and are unwilling tom learn something different, even if it should be easier to use, they fell it's harder to use, because they are used to something odd in the first place. Btw. half-truth are "bogus" and nothing else. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 10:57 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 22:38:56 +0530, Amit wrote: > >On Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 10:27 PM Ralf Mardorf > > wrote: > > > >> > >> Windows is easier available, since it's installed by default on > >> almost all discounter desktop computers (and laptops...). "Available > >> by default" isn't the same as easier to use. > >> > > > >So, the question is why is Windows available easily and by default? > >Why not Ubuntu/Linux? > > > >No one is stopping anyone from selling a Ubuntu/Linux laptop. So, why > >Ubuntu/Linux is not installed by default? > > > >Amit > > For hysterical raisins and mainly related to marketing. If something is > available for free as in beer and a lot of this is made by unpaid > volunteers and no radical marketing is taking place, then it can't > competed with something such as Windows which is based on theft and > plain exploitative market economy, as well as malicious lobbying. > But everyone knows that Linux/Ubuntu is free. And the world loves free stuff. So, why doesn't the world want Ubuntu/Linux when it is free. I have been using both Windows desktop and Ubuntu desktop. Windows is much easier to use. Amit -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 22:38:56 +0530, Amit wrote: >On Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 10:27 PM Ralf Mardorf > wrote: > >> >> Windows is easier available, since it's installed by default on >> almost all discounter desktop computers (and laptops...). "Available >> by default" isn't the same as easier to use. >> > >So, the question is why is Windows available easily and by default? >Why not Ubuntu/Linux? > >No one is stopping anyone from selling a Ubuntu/Linux laptop. So, why >Ubuntu/Linux is not installed by default? > >Amit For hysterical raisins and mainly related to marketing. If something is available for free as in beer and a lot of this is made by unpaid volunteers and no radical marketing is taking place, then it can't competed with something such as Windows which is based on theft and plain exploitative market economy, as well as malicious lobbying. Either reply to the list, or at least mark your email as "off-list". But please refrain from off-list replies related to Windows vs Linux. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On 3/20/22 8:38 AM, Amit wrote: The current default GUI of Ubuntu desktop is not very user friendly. Would you please be specific about what is missin or wrong that makes Ubuntu desktop "not very use friendly"? What would, in your eyes, improve the desktop experience, particularly for the seniors? "It sucks" is not very informative, and doesn't lead to a useful discussion that can be embraced by developers. I use Ubuntu desktop all the time; I switched from CentOS during the CentOS 8 fiasco. I find Ubuntu desktop more friendly than Windows 11 by a long shot. In particular, I like the adoption of the "dock" that was introduced (to me) by later versions of the Mac OS more than a decade ago. One thing I have found in other desktop implementations that would be a help (no pun intended) is a "Help" application. Such a help application would provide at the first level a FAQ list; click on a question and the application displays a short blurb and perhaps a web link to a more complete answer. At the second level, it would provide a front end to a search engine for more esoteric questions. Yes, one could call up a web browser...if one knew how to do that. Or what a "search engine" is. (Ever provide guidance to residents of a nursing home? There are still people who are computer illiterate.) The icon for the application would be an italic "i" in a circle, to match the icon used elsewhere. Perhaps with the word "help" at the bottom for the completely uninitiated. (I speak as a guy who has been unofficial computer/network tech support to a surprising circle of friends and acquaintances, including professionals who use computers all the time but encounter a problem outside of their comfort zone.) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
Okay, guys, with my community leadership hat on: before you read any further on this, don't take shots at each other, we're all on the same side here. If you want to argue different points of view, do it in a civil tone, please don't call people "bogus" or fight with people about hardware, etc. and don't swear please (even if you obfuscate it - this is a civil place not a place to fight). Now, on to my response, WITHOUT my CC hat on. Also without my other hats on, but I put them all in the signature because I mention them here, and because it shows the breadth of my exposure to the 'current community state of mind' at large (i.e. Ask Ubuntu and such). FIRST, some background on me. I am a long time Ubuntu user, first used it in 2009, where it massively improved performance on my then Dell Vostro laptop that I had for college. I admit though I dualbooted - Linux as primary driver, Windows for gaming or specific Windows only software. 2012 is when I really got deeper into it and started doing support on Ask Ubuntu (and hey, I'm also a moderator there now!). 2014 is when I started doing actual development. And then I continued to get involved deeper and deeper into the Server side of things, then started maintaining packages, then got full upload privs everywhere in Ubuntu, leading to me getting positions on the Developer Membership Board, Lubuntu Team/Council, Community Council, and other positions. And just as a point, I recently finally applied in Debian for Debian Maintainer to have upload access to all my packages I maintain (two of them), and that was approved two days ago, and is waiting for Debian admins to update my status. I'm very fluent in Ubuntu and how it works, and know far more than I want to admit. With this in mind, my responses will be the "Power user comments on user problems and concerns based on long-term observation of Ask Ubuntu, user complaints/concerns, etc. On 3/20/22 11:38, Amit wrote: Hi, I was thinking about how to increase the user base of Ubuntu desktop. More and more people will use Ubuntu desktop if it (GUI, etc.) is easy to use. Technically speaking, the GUI *is* easy to use. It's not hard to find applications with the search bar in vanilla Ubuntu, and the GUI is not the concern here usually. First timers and older people should also find Ubuntu desktop easy to use (having very short learning curve). Microsoft Windows is there on about 90% of all (computer) systems mainly because it is very easy to use. Windows is not a great OS but it is so easy to use that first timers and older people also use it without much issues. And herein lies my beginning of countering your statements. It is **well known** that Ubuntu ISOs are restricted from shipping certain software or drivers due to legal constraints. Windows has legal agreements to install special Windows fonts, software, etc. and install codecs for DVDs, etc. from other companies. Ubuntu and the Open Source world (including Debian, etc.) don't have those legal agreements and therefore are restricted from shipping certain binary drivers, etc. and other software that would normally be available in Windows. Windows has been a dominant market share since **the dawn**. I was born in 1990. In Kindergarten, we had old 5.5inch floppy disk computers that we had to boot those disks to for software. In 1st through 3rd grade, we had Windows 3.1 on old IBM systems for use for school emails between staff. In 4th grade, systems started being upgraded to Windows 95. Then 98. Then 2000 by the time I was in middle school (6-8th grade). Then XP through high school. ME was kinda skipped in the school world. The only other competitor was Apple, which in the timespan Windows grew had a lag before it had any significant market share. In comparison to "Hey it's ready off the shelf!" Windows and Apple environments, initial UNIX (and later Linux) builds were not GUI oriented, were mostly CLI, had server gearing, and were used by 'techies' who weren't held to the same level as 'consumer users' as they needed high technical skills to use it. Then enter GUI Linux. The large GUI linux stuff started to kick in around here in the 2000s, with RHEL being around and used in tech colleges for special projects. In fact, when I first went off to college in 2009, Carnegie Mellon University had primarily Windows endpoint systems connected into the RHEL/UNIX backends that powered the core. I haven't been back at CMU since 2010 because I changed universities and had a job since then once I graduated Penn State, but my understanding is they still have RHEL labs, and also now support Macs. Beyond the Windows market share problem, we *all* are aware of hardware support problems. Wifi card drivers that're on the ISOs don't get installed properly for certain wifi hardware chipsets, leaving people without the ability to use their systems post-install and unable
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
I'm not interested in reading another market share link. I'm quite sure that most computer devices used via a GUI are smartphones and I doubt that Windows is the most used OS on smartphones. However, given that most desktop computers likely are equipped with Windows only, the market share still isn't bound to user-friendliness. Windows is easier available, since it's installed by default on almost all discounter desktop computers (and laptops...). "Available by default" isn't the same as easier to use. Windows has got better proprietary support for additional hardware, as well as some professional software, but this is true for Apple operating systems, too. _But_ Windows is the operating system that fails the most and comes with the most worse support related to the countless issue and has got the most security gaps. Without a computer geek in the neighborhood Jane Doe is way more lost, than when using a user-friendly Linux distro + willing to go through a small learning curve. Yes, a *BSD and user-centric Linux distro is not made for Jane and even user-friendly Linux distros aren't idiot proof. Not completely, but close to idiot proof is Apple, but you need to pay for this by much money and accepting radical restrictions. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
with mate-desktop it can be personalize very quickly I think ubuntu is easier than w11 which is coming Le 20/03/2022 à 16:38, Amit a écrit : Hi, I was thinking about how to increase the user base of Ubuntu desktop. More and more people will use Ubuntu desktop if it (GUI, etc.) is easy to use. First timers and older people should also find Ubuntu desktop easy to use (having very short learning curve). Microsoft Windows is there on about 90% of all (computer) systems mainly because it is very easy to use. Windows is not a great OS but it is so easy to use that first timers and older people also use it without much issues. The current default GUI of Ubuntu desktop is not very user friendly. But, it is for certain that if we want to increase the user base of Ubuntu desktop then we have to make it (GUI, etc.) easy to use just like Windows or even easier than Windows. Regards, Amit -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, Mar 20, 2022, 9:40 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 21:08:01 +0530, Amit wrote: > >Microsoft Windows is there on about 90% of all (computer) systems > >mainly because it is very easy to use. > > Hi, > > that's complete bogus for several reasons. > Read the article at the following page: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t=web=j=https://www.firstpost.com/tech/news-analysis/windows-continues-to-operate-on-more-than-90-percent-computers-in-the-world-3669283.html/amp=2ahUKEwjbqtKCi9X2AhVYUGwGHffQCOoQFnoECAQQBQ=AOvVaw0-GBAFPXBvgtNZC-a62zis It says: ‐--- Microsoft's operating system runs on 90.85% of the computers identified by NetMarketShare, well ahead of the 7.54% for Mac OS and 1.61% for Linux. - Amit -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Increasing user base of Ubuntu desktop.
On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 21:08:01 +0530, Amit wrote:
>Microsoft Windows is there on about 90% of all (computer) systems
>mainly because it is very easy to use.
Hi,
that's complete bogus for several reasons.
>Windows is not a great OS but it is so easy to use that first timers
>and older people also use it without much issues.
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or you'll be jailed for life.
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access to your data.
>But, it is for certain that if we want to increase the user base of
>Ubuntu desktop then we have to make it (GUI, etc.) easy to use just
>like Windows or even easier than Windows.
Who {,the .?*@} is we? And when became the non-existent
user-friendliness off Windows an idol?
Actually the neighbourhood ask all the *BSD and Linux geeks for help,
when the Windows support they have payed for fails to solve the
uncountable issues they experience.
Please, folks, if you want something idiot prove to use, pay much money
for Apple hardware and software! If you are willing to read the fine
and easy to understand manual and you don't need professional grade
{,nice} software, but you also don not want to become a power user/geek,
then use a Linux distro such as an Ubuntu flavour.
Regards,
Ralf
--
“Awards are merely the badges of mediocrity.”
― Charles Ives
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