On Friday, May 14, 2004 10:22 PM, Peter Constable wrote:
It is simply inadequate analysis of usage scenarios to say an
order form contains formatted dates / numbers / currency that need to
be interpreted, therefore this document has a locale.
Sorry, you lost me. I do not know what usage
On Thursday, May 13th, 2004 16:40, Peter Constable wrote:
Only that I don't think it's appropriate in general to tag
documents (by which I don't mean an accounting spreadsheet or an
order-entry record) for things like number formatting, and so such
info should not be included in attributes
I am sorry I had misunderstood the whole discussion then.
Your sarcasm isn't productive.
To me, documents encompassed any style of writings (and was broader).
For
exemple, I believed that writing was invented 6 millenaries ago
precisely
for accounting and trading, *not* with the Hamurabi
On Friday, May 14, 2004 3:30 PM, Peter Constable va escriure:
To me, documents encompassed any style of writings (and was
broader). For exemple, I believed that writing was invented 6
millenaries ago precisely for accounting and trading, *not* with the
Hamurabi codex or the Egyptian hymns.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf
Of Antoine Leca
I wrote about an electronic document, sorry, file, I might receive
containing an order form, and you said documents did not encompass
order
forms, as I read it.
An order form is not a case we can evaluate without
Well, it is true that what I really search for is not *exactly* the
formatting locale, but rather another wider information, which would
be the
mind setting of the writer.
Precisely. The locale info only tells you how a number would have been
formatted by the author's system, not what the
On Wednesday, May 12, 2004 8:00 PM, Peter Constable va escriure:
It's not particularly useful to communicate that a document was
created when a locale with such-and-such number format was in effect,
Sure?
: Please send to us 100.000 units of your item 12010, available to our
: warehouse by
.
It is not a feature.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Peter Constable
Sent: 2004513 7:40
To: Unicode Mailing List
Subject: RE: TR35
Well, it is true that what I really search for is not *exactly* the
formatting locale, but rather another wider
Peter Constable a écrit :
A language is an attribute of content, and a language ID
is used for
declaration of that attribute.
A locale is an operational mode of software processes, and
a locale
ID is used in APIs to set or determine that mode.
Oversimplified, I'm afraid. Consider
Peter Constable a écrit :
Moreover, you would never label a document for a
number format in order to determine how automated-formatting
of numbers should be done on the receiving system.
You would not label it to determine formatting on the receiving system, but
to determine interpretation
Addison:
Interestingly, the W3C I18N WG published a new working draft...
Great! I'll certainly be interested in reading it. (When I get a chance
-- I still need to look at the 2nd draft of RFC3066bis; I know, you'd
like that to be done yesterday.)
I think what's interesting is that our
A language is an attribute of content, and a language ID
is used for
declaration of that attribute.
A locale is an operational mode of software processes, and
a locale
ID is used in APIs to set or determine that mode.
Oversimplified, I'm afraid. Consider machine translation
Moreover, you would never label a document for a
number format in order to determine how automated-formatting
of numbers should be done on the receiving system.
You would not label it to determine formatting on the receiving
system, but
to determine interpretation (parsing) of formatted
by language.
Mark
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http://www.macchiato.com
- Original Message -
From: Peter Constable [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Unicode Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thu, 2004 May 13 11:58
Subject: RE: TR35
Moreover, you would never label a document for a
number
From: Mark Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
So if one's locale definition includes something like: language=sh-Cryl-YU
plus
currency=EUR plus timezone=GMT, then that is clearly something far different
than just language.
May be you meant language=sh-Cyrl-YU, which however was never used and will
never
From: Peter Constable [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All I have said is that the notions of locale and language are
distinct, that in general non-linguistic locale parameters such as
number format are not appropriate things to declare about documents, and
so we should not design systems or protocols that
You speak as if date or number formats had nothing to do with language. I
(B very
(B much disagree. If I have message that says: "The date of the last version
(B of
(B this document was 2003$BG/(J3$B7n(J20$BF|(J", nobody in their right mind would
(B say
(B that that is
(B correct
At 11:21 AM 5/13/2004, Francois Yergeau wrote:
Peter Constable a écrit :
A language is an attribute of content, and a language ID
is used for
declaration of that attribute.
A locale is an operational mode of software processes, and
a locale
ID is used in APIs to set or determine that mode.
Title: RE: TR35
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(B [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Peter Constable
(B Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 4:01 PM
(B
(B You speak as if date or number formats had nothing to do
(B with language. I
(B very
(B much disagree. If I have
-Original Message-
(B From: Addison Phillips [wM] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(B Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 10:16 AM
(B
(B[snip]
(B
(B -Original Message-
(B From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(B [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Peter Constable
(B Sent:
On Thu, May 13, 2004 at 05:16:49PM -0700, Mike Ayers wrote:
The only correct English way I know to write dates is March 20, 2003,
No. Try 20 March 2003, if you want English (spoken as the 20th of
March 2003). If you want to add superscript th after the 20, or
a comma after the month, feel free.
On Tuesday, May 11, 2004 6:59 PM, Philippe Verdy va escriure:
From: Carl W. Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Expats break the locale model anyway. The problem is that we use
country as both a language modifier and a location.
From past comments I read here, it is understood now that locale
From: Antoine Leca [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, May 11, 2004 6:59 PM, Philippe Verdy va escriure:
This code is meant
to designate the language variant as spoken in that area, but not for
identifying a location.
I am very sorry, but if in
LANG=fr; LC_MONETARY=es_ES
you consider that
PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue, 2004 May 11 20:33
Subject: Re: TR35
Philippe Verdy verdy underscore p at wanadoo dot fr wrote:
From past comments I read here, it is understood now that locale
identifiers used to select languages contain a country/territory code
only as a legacy way to select language
Here I disagree; this area is very fuzzy. See
http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/language_
code_issues.html,
especially the end.
During which you observe that both [language IDs and locale IDs] are
somewhat nebulous concepts. (Of course, it's not the *IDs* that are
I see both language IDs and locale IDs as having usage beyond what you
say. Both
can be tagging content (e.g. this content was generated in accordance
with
locale x,
It's not particularly useful to communicate that a document was created
when a locale with such-and-such number format was in
important to distinguish between a language ID and a locale ID.
Mark
__
http://www.macchiato.com
- Original Message -
From: Peter Constable [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Unicode Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wed, 2004 May 12 08:45
Subject: RE: TR35
-
From: Carl W. Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Unicode List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue, 2004 May 11 07:31
Subject: RE: TR35
Peter,
If I live in Guam I will probably be using an en_US locale.
However the US territory does not contain my time zone.
Probably the best solution for this problem
Philippe Verdy verdy underscore p at wanadoo dot fr wrote:
From past comments I read here, it is understood now that locale
identifiers used to select languages contain a country/territory code
only as a legacy way to select language variants. This code is meant
to designate the language
Mark Davis mark dot davis at jtcsv dot com wrote:
BTW, what is curious is that the way the US timezones work, even
though Pacific Time is listed as being -08:00, a *majority* of the
year it is actually -07:00, and same for the others with daylight
savings time.
Interesting way of thinking
Doug,
The issue of French as spoken in Switzerland versus French as spoken
in Canada is totally unrelated to the issue of Swiss conventions versus
Canadian conventions for sorting, date and time format, decimal
separator, and so forth.
As for time zones, I agree completely with Mark that
Peter,
If I live in Guam I will probably be using an en_US locale.
However the US territory does not contain my time zone.
Probably the best solution for this problem is to add a category
of possessions to the territory information. This allows
applications to enumerate available time zones
Carl W. Brown cbrown at xnetinc dot com wrote:
To stay out of politics I would list Mainland China, Hong Kong,
Singapore and Taiwan under each other. Pick one get 4.
I don't think Singapore belongs in that list. Nobody seriously
questions its independence (and if anyone did it would be
To stay out of politics... The Falklands would be
listed
und both Great Britain and Argentina.
Falkland Islanders would not consider that to be 'staying out of
politics' :)
--
Benjamin Peterson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Carl W. Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Expats break the locale model anyway. The problem is that we use country as
both a language modifier and a location. Thus a Brazilian community in the
US can not pick pt_BR as a language and US as a territory.
From past comments I read here, it is
On 07/05/2004 14:53, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
So the database aliases one to the other. Aliases are used for timezones
that are compeltely equivalent on the whole timeframe considered
(apparently only starting in the early years of last century).
The cutoff date is 1970-01-01; if two
On 07/05/2004 09:44, Carl W. Brown wrote:
...
If I live in Guam I will probably be using an en_US locale. However the US territory does not contain my time zone. Probably the best solution for this problem is to add a category of possessions to the territory information. This allows
Mark,
Do you know if there is an official list of country possessions?
Carl
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 5:28 PM
To: Carl W. Brown; Unicode List
Subject: Re: TR35 (was: Standardize TimeZone ID
At 07:54 -0700 2004-05-08, Carl W. Brown wrote:
Do you know if there is an official list of country possessions?
The CIA factbook probably gets it right. I guess the UN publishes something.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
From: Carl W. Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Do you know if there is an official list of country possessions?
Not very complicate to build, starting by the ISO 3166-1 and UN (numeric) list
of country/territory codes. I have such a list if you want.
But all depends on the level of granularity you need:
. Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Unicode List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sat, 2004 May 08 07:54
Subject: RE: TR35 (was: Standardize TimeZone ID
Mark,
Do you know if there is an official list of country possessions?
Carl
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED
Philippe Verdy verdy underscore p at wanadoo dot fr wrote:
The status of some possessions in the Antarctica (AQ) is not clear.
They are administered by existing countries for the scientific bases
that run there, but have now a limited right for their expansion (the
old maps that divided it
Elaine Keown
Tucson
Hi,
For an authoritative list of countries, the UN
list is probably your best bet.
Is this list online? -- Elaine
__
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E. Keown k underscore isoetc at yahoo dot com wrote:
For an authoritative list of countries, the UN
list is probably your best bet.
Is this list online? -- Elaine
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49alpha.htm
The ISO 3166-1 FAQ points to this page as the determining factor in
whether
That is not a problem. The Olson IDs are not guaranteed to be unique, just
unambiguous. And there are aliases. Typically these are de-unified for political
purposes. Thus you may find that two different IDs produce the same results over
the entire period of time in the database.
Moreover, whether
From: Mark Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
That is not a problem. The Olson IDs are not guaranteed to be unique, just
unambiguous. And there are aliases. Typically these are de-unified for
political
purposes. Thus you may find that two different IDs produce the same results
over
the entire period of
Mark,
That is not a problem. The Olson IDs are not guaranteed
to be unique, just unambiguous. And there are aliases.
Typically these are de-unified for political
purposes. Thus you may find that two different IDs produce
the same results over
the entire period of time in the database.
Carl W. Brown scripsit:
So which timezone will the tr_TR locale in a TR35 database have?
Asia/Istanbul or Europe/Istanbul or both?
Both.
I guess that the territory possessions list should be an another
database that is merged.
I think they should be in the same database. Guam is a
From: Carl W. Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
That is not a problem. The Olson IDs are not guaranteed
to be unique, just unambiguous. And there are aliases.
Typically these are de-unified for political
purposes. Thus you may find that two different IDs produce
the same results over
the entire
-, high-risk), religious
preference (atheist vs theist), etc.
Mark
__
http://www.macchiato.com
- Original Message -
From: Carl W. Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Unicode List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Fri, 2004 May 07 14:46
Subject: RE: TR35 (was: Standardize
Philippe Verdy scripsit:
I do agree. The fact that both Europe/Istanbul and Asia/Istanbul
are referenced is probably not really political, but it reflects
the fact that this city is on both continents, and that it's timezone
covers more than just this city. Someone leaving on the Asian area
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