subject:"Re\: Suggestion\: Non\-Appbuilding Community Edition"

They're only used for uploading or editing stacks that you want to
share. (Oh, now that I think about it, maybe also to rate a stack from
someone else).

I thought about just removing those buttons from the plugin (IMHO, the
upload/edit functions are fine as they are), but then I thought someone
might spend time trying to find how to do those actions; better, I
think, to have an obvious button which immediately tells you that the
plugin doesn't support it.

The main reason for not including that functionality was that I felt it
was just a bit "off" to have a plugin ask for your username/password; I
was glad to find that there doesn't seem to much need to do that part.

Alex.

On 30/09/2021 18:50, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote:

This is really nice and fast, Alex. Thanks again for doing this as I’ve always felt that LC’s
Sample Stacks is a great and often overlooked resource save for it’s interface. I note that
"Log In" and "Sign Up" do not work. Is there any value in those items?

Roger

On Sep 30, 2021, at 10:05 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode
wrote:

Hmmm ... not sure why.

Easy way : https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/samplestacks.livecode

Or: start the IDE, and in the toolbar (4th or so from the right) is "Sample
Stacks".

Then

- select "View as: List"

- select "All" on left hand side

- select "Sort by: Date"

- then reverse order the sort - and it's the most recent one !!

Or - select "Plugin" in the tags column (5th one down), then type "sample" in the search
box and hit "Go"

Alex.

On 30/09/2021 16:17, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote:

This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can’t find it as you described.

Roger

On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode
wrote:

On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:

On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:

Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in
there but it has the issues you list.

So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. There's an old joke about
a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, and ask for directions from an old farmer at the
side of the road. "Well", says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from
here."

I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how to
solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom line is
that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login / register /
upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the searching /
browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either (very) poor
performance or unclear UI.

In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I wrote
a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / downloading parts,
and which omits the login/upload parts entirely.

It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called "Sample
Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the usual way.

UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit.

- search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the "Go"
button was removed

- everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed.

- the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or
understand)

- tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized

- the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and
scrolled

There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling using mousepad
doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to be enough to
"revive" it.

Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions.

Thanks

Alex.

(*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to
being lost and so would never have asked the question :-)

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Re: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition]

This is really nice and fast, Alex. Thanks again for doing this as I’ve always 
felt that LC’s Sample Stacks is a great and often overlooked resource save for 
it’s interface. I note that "Log In" and "Sign Up" do not work. Is there any 
value in those items?

Roger

> On Sep 30, 2021, at 10:05 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hmmm ... not sure why.
> 
> Easy way : https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/samplestacks.livecode
> 
> Or: start the IDE, and  in the toolbar (4th or so from the right) is "Sample 
> Stacks".
> 
> Then
> 
>  - select "View as: List"
> 
>  - select "All" on left hand side
> 
>  - select "Sort by: Date"
> 
>  - then reverse order the sort - and it's the most recent one !!
> 
> 
> Or - select "Plugin" in the tags column (5th one down), then type "sample" in 
> the search box and hit "Go"
> 
> Alex.
> 
> 
> On 30/09/2021 16:17, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote:
>> This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can’t find it as you 
>> described.
>> 
>> Roger
>> 
>>> On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:
 On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:
 
> Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content 
> in there but it has the issues you list.
>>> So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. 
>>> There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, 
>>> and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", 
>>> says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here."
>>> 
>>> I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how 
>>> to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom 
>>> line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login 
>>> / register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the 
>>> searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either 
>>> (very) poor performance or unclear UI.
>>> 
>>> In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I 
>>> wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / 
>>> downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely.
>>> 
>>> It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called 
>>> "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in 
>>> the usual way.
>>> 
>>> UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit.
>>> 
>>>  - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the 
>>> "Go" button was removed
>>> 
>>> - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed.
>>> 
>>>  - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or 
>>> understand)
>>> 
>>>  -  tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized
>>> 
>>>  - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and 
>>> scrolled
>>> 
>>> There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling 
>>> using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems 
>>> to be enough to "revive" it.
>>> 
>>> Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Alex.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to 
>>> being lost and so would never have asked the question :-)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>>> subscription preferences:
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Re: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition]

Ah, it worked this time. I thought one might need your plugin to find your 
plugin….

Thanks,

Roger

> On Sep 30, 2021, at 10:05 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hmmm ... not sure why.
> 
> Easy way : https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/samplestacks.livecode
> 
> Or: start the IDE, and  in the toolbar (4th or so from the right) is "Sample 
> Stacks".
> 
> Then
> 
>  - select "View as: List"
> 
>  - select "All" on left hand side
> 
>  - select "Sort by: Date"
> 
>  - then reverse order the sort - and it's the most recent one !!
> 
> 
> Or - select "Plugin" in the tags column (5th one down), then type "sample" in 
> the search box and hit "Go"
> 
> Alex.
> 
> 
> On 30/09/2021 16:17, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote:
>> This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can’t find it as you 
>> described.
>> 
>> Roger
>> 
>>> On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:
 On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:
 
> Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content 
> in there but it has the issues you list.
>>> So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. 
>>> There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, 
>>> and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", 
>>> says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here."
>>> 
>>> I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how 
>>> to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom 
>>> line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login 
>>> / register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the 
>>> searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either 
>>> (very) poor performance or unclear UI.
>>> 
>>> In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I 
>>> wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / 
>>> downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely.
>>> 
>>> It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called 
>>> "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in 
>>> the usual way.
>>> 
>>> UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit.
>>> 
>>>  - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the 
>>> "Go" button was removed
>>> 
>>> - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed.
>>> 
>>>  - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or 
>>> understand)
>>> 
>>>  -  tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized
>>> 
>>>  - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and 
>>> scrolled
>>> 
>>> There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling 
>>> using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems 
>>> to be enough to "revive" it.
>>> 
>>> Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Alex.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to 
>>> being lost and so would never have asked the question :-)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
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Re: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition]

Hmmm ... not sure why.

Easy way : https://www.tweedly.org/Downloads/samplestacks.livecode

Or: start the IDE, and in the toolbar (4th or so from the right) is
"Sample Stacks".

Then

- select "View as: List"

- select "All" on left hand side

- select "Sort by: Date"

- then reverse order the sort - and it's the most recent one !!

Or - select "Plugin" in the tags column (5th one down), then type
"sample" in the search box and hit "Go"

Alex.

On 30/09/2021 16:17, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote:

This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can’t find it as you described.

Roger

On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode
wrote:

On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:

On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:

Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in
there but it has the issues you list.

It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called "Sample
Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the usual way.

UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit.

- search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the "Go"
button was removed

- everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed.

- the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or
understand)

- tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized

- the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and
scrolled

There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling using mousepad
doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to be enough to
"revive" it.

Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions.

Thanks

Alex.

(*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to
being lost and so would never have asked the question :-)

Re: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition]

There’s an old joke about a tourist in Maine asking a local for directions and 
an old farmer says “You can’t get theya from hereya”.

Roger

> On Sep 30, 2021, at 8:17 AM, Roger Guay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can’t find it as you 
> described. 
> 
> Roger
> 
>> On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:
>>> On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:
>>> 
 Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content 
 in there but it has the issues you list.
>> 
>> So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. 
>> There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, 
>> and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", 
>> says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here."
>> 
>> I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how 
>> to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom 
>> line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login / 
>> register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the 
>> searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either (very) 
>> poor performance or unclear UI.
>> 
>> In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I 
>> wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / 
>> downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely.
>> 
>> It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called 
>> "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the 
>> usual way.
>> 
>> UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit.
>> 
>> - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the 
>> "Go" button was removed
>> 
>> - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed.
>> 
>> - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or 
>> understand)
>> 
>> -  tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized
>> 
>> - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and 
>> scrolled
>> 
>> There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling 
>> using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to 
>> be enough to "revive" it.
>> 
>> Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Alex.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to 
>> being lost and so would never have asked the question :-)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
> 
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Re: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition]

This sounds absolutely wonderful, Alex, except I can’t find it as you 
described. 

Roger

> On Sep 30, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:
>> On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:
>> 
>>> Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in 
>>> there but it has the issues you list.
> 
> So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. 
> There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is lost, 
> and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. "Well", 
> says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here."
> 
> I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see how 
> to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the bottom 
> line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. The login / 
> register / upload features all work just fine - the problems are with the 
> searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related to either (very) 
> poor performance or unclear UI.
> 
> In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead I 
> wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / 
> downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely.
> 
> It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's called 
> "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a plugin in the 
> usual way.
> 
> UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit.
> 
>  - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so the 
> "Go" button was removed
> 
> - everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed.
> 
>  - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to use or 
> understand)
> 
>  -  tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized
> 
>  - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged and 
> scrolled
> 
> There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling using 
> mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar seems to be 
> enough to "revive" it.
> 
> Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Alex.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted to 
> being lost and so would never have asked the question :-)
> 
> 
> 
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> preferences:
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Re: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition]



On 30/09/2021 15:02, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode wrote:

On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:

Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of 
content in there but it has the issues you list.


So I had a look at what could be done just within the IDE for revonline. 
There's an old joke about a tourist in Ireland who realizes she(*) is 
lost, and ask for directions from an old farmer at the side of the road. 
"Well", says he, "if I wanted to go there, I wouldn't start from here."


I found the revonline scripts rather complex, and I couldn't easily see 
how to solve the issues mentioned previously, in that context. And the 
bottom line is that it's not a complex problem that needs to be solved. 
The login / register / upload features all work just fine - the problems 
are with the searching / browsing / filtering, and are generally related 
to either (very) poor performance or unclear UI.


In the end, I just couldn't produce worthwhile improvements, so instead 
I wrote a plugin that handles the searching / filtering / browsing / 
downloading parts, and which omits the login/upload parts entirely.


It can be downloaded from "Sample Stacks" in the IDE toolbar (it's 
called "Sample Stacks" and is tagged as IDE and Plugin). Install as a 
plugin in the usual way.


UI is very similar to the existing IDE version - simplified a bit.

 - search box automatically (and immediately) updates as you type, so 
the "Go" button was removed


- everything happens in < 1 second, so the progress bar was removed.

 - the grid/list choice was removed (the old 'list' stye was hard to 
use or understand)


 -  tags in the left-hand box are alphabetized

 - the grid is a single long scrolling group, rather than being paged 
and scrolled


There is one issue I haven;t tracked down yet - sometimes the scrolling 
using mousepad doesn't work initially; scrolling with the scrollbar 
seems to be enough to "revive" it.


Let me know if you try it and have any problems or suggestions.

Thanks

Alex.




(*) "she" is not sexist - had it been a man he would never have admitted 
to being lost and so would never have asked the question :-)




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Re: Sample stacks / revOnline [was: Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition]


On 06/09/2021 15:14, Kevin Miller via use-livecode wrote:


Upgrading this could be a very useful project. There is a lot of content in 
there but it has the issues you list.

Kind regards,

Kevin


Some of these issues can easily be tackled as a community effort / 
project - but it's not clear to me how the more serious ones could be 
done without project leadership (or at least strong involvement) from LC 
Ltd. The ability to store things other than traditional stacks (e.g. 
widgets, script-only stacks, documentation pages, e-books, ...) and how 
that could be handled (or tested) on LC servers means they would need 
LCLtd to be heavily involved.


And the other half of that project (i.e. providing infrastructure 
support for library/LCS stacks) in the IDE/engine is certainly outside 
the scope of a community project. For me, this includes things like


 - standard place to keep stacks/libraries  (e.g., maybe, My 
Livecode/Libraries ?)


 - preference to change that in IDE, perhaps specialFolderPath("libraries")

 - naming scheme or convention (cf what was done for widgets)

 - a "require" or "include" mechanism for dependencies in libraries

 - integration into the dictionary (cf widgets again)

 - ability to add e.g. custom controls to the toolbar (cf widgets).

and no doubt many others that I haven't even thought of.

Without those, I think we will continue to struggle with a limited set 
of community-provided libraries and tools, compared to the rich 
ecosystem this *incredibly helpful* community should be able to provide.


But, getting my head own out of the clouds, I've had a look at this as a 
community project - see separate email.


For anyone who got this far - thanks for your patience :-),

Alex.



Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Develop Yourself

On 06/09/2021, 14:11, "use-livecode on behalf of Alex Tweedly via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

 In the main thread, I mentioned that I found revOnline (aka "Sample
 Stacks"), but didn't say how or why. Here the answer to that ...

 It has:

 - no differentiation between 'libraries' and 'examples'

 - it has no support for script-only stacks, which is surely the way most
 libraries will be done nowadays.

 - a left hand scrolling box with ~90 'categories', in no particular
 order, no grouping

 - grid vs list view - list shows you a list, which is basically the same
 as a 1-wide grid rather than 2-wide, plus a larger view of some random
 other item (OK, it's not random - it simply doesn't update when it should)

 - updates when you click on the picture - but gives no cursor hint that
 you can do that

 - a drop-down list for sort order - which isn't sized adequately when
 you first open revonline

 - a 'search' box which must search something, but I don't know what.
 There is a sample stack called "Compare stack scripts", and which is
 tagged as "compare" - but isn't found if you search for "compare".

 - and I usually find things via "browser + google" (or similar) and the
 stuff in samples stacks isn't visible that way.

 H - maybe I've just found my next project :-)

 Alex.


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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-10 Thread Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode




Lagi:

> My Laptop is SSD and still the problems.
> I have the problems with or without defender on.
> I don't use third party antivirus anymore

That's 2 out of 4 common steps!
Have you disabled the SE "bling" options?

Bling is slang for flashy expensive trinkets,
such as Live Errors and Auto Complete.

(I used to disable Colorization,
but it works fine with SSD.)

BTW, it's not necessary to go without antivirus.
The problem is certain newer intensive options
you can adjust in the antivirus settings.

I don't want people to read this thread
and disable antivirus entirely; be safe!

None of this is new; I listed 6 known factors
and one more would be too much code;
LC 7+ has performance issues that have been
noted for years and are still being fixed.

(I favor shorter code, and it has many perks.
This is just one of them.)

The IDE is not a high-performance design either.
Looks like one underlying issue may improve soon!
Others can be fixed readily if the LC Team
spends more time "hands on" using IDE on Windows.
Then the more rare and exotic bugs will trigger.

Yet another LC problem on Windows is that each launch
of each version of LC may launch a new Setup process
that hangs in memory. Over time, you can end up
with a dozen or more in memory eating up resources.
Check your Task Manager and thin the crowd.

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-09 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode

Hi Lagi

I just went back and repeated my steps from a couple of days ago.

New start for IDE, new stack, pasted in the same 8,000 lines as a comment.
And this time there was no slow down. So it does look like any such
problems are less predictable than my initial test suggested. I toggled on
then off all the options in the Script Editor related to autocomplete, etc.
And no matter what state they were in made no difference.  In the light of
this unreproduceability - how can LC be expected to identify/fix this
problem?   It may not even be within their control and certainly they can't
start to spend resources investigating it if the professional programmers
using LC on Win10 can't identify a predicable pattern.

I took my 8,000 lines of text and re-started the IDE multiple times. And
then I added 50% more to the comment. It does seem that the longer the
script is the more likely that your treacle problem is going to appear.
Perhaps if you tried this you could come up with a more definite pattern
and if so, then LC could look at why it is that a 8000, 12000, 18000 line
script causes a slow down.  With 12,000 lines even switching off all the
Edit/Options made no improvement: adding a return to a line took 3 seconds
for the screen to update.

What happens if you have a 24,000 line script? Do you get a predictable
pattern? Is it always slow?  Once you get a predictable recipe then LC Ltd
have something they can work on. Personally I'd find a 12,000 line script
really hard to navigate. But until LC Ltd specify that there's a length to
how long a script can be, there's no reason why you shouldn't have 12,000
line scripts.

Yesterday my Win10 laptop totally froze. I had open only two programmes: MS
OneNote and Chrome.  Even ctrl-alt-delete did nothing. I couldn't even
bring up task manager to see what could possibly be using all the
resources. After minutes of waiting for it to respond, I went to remove
battery and power cable (normal power button is set to hibernate not power
off), and suddenly it started to respond again. When I worked in tech
support I was the star problem solver. And now I've over 20 years more
experience with computing, but these days Windows 10 leaves me scratching
my head. MS have done some great things (WSL is one of them).

In my experience the weird behaviour I experience with Win10 is much, much
rarer on a Mac (I can't remember an incident in 20 years of using a variety
of Macs). On a different Win10 machine I have a well-know SQL editor.
Whenever it asks if I want to apply an update to it and I click "no", it
crashes. It's never been updated since I installed it. But this behaviour
only started a few months ago. To me that's really weird. When something
works I don't upgrade because it works as is.

Regards, Bernard

On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:59 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi Bernard,
>
>
> I didn't make myself clear - it can work for hours with no slowdown at
> 13,000 lines on an older computer there is just no pattern.
>
> Lagi
>
> On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 18:54, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large
> > block comment).  On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once
> > there is that much text.  Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine.
> >
> > With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is
> gone.
> >
> > I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he
> has
> > no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field
> > to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle.
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still
> get
> > > the slowdown.
> > >
> > > When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
> > > machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its
> > fast
> > > on both - no consistency
> > >
> > > Lagi
> > >
> > >
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>
>
> --
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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

Hi Bernard,


I didn't make myself clear - it can work for hours with no slowdown at
13,000 lines on an older computer there is just no pattern.

Lagi

On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 18:54, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large
> block comment).  On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once
> there is that much text.  Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine.
>
> With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is gone.
>
> I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he has
> no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field
> to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle.
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get
> > the slowdown.
> >
> > When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
> > machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its
> fast
> > on both - no consistency
> >
> > Lagi
> >
> >
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KIndest Regards Lagi
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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-08 Thread Ali Lloyd via use-livecode

One thing to check is whether you are using a fixed width font, and if not
whether you have the same performance issue with the SE when using one.

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021, 18:52 Bernard Devlin via use-livecode, <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large
> block comment).  On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once
> there is that much text.  Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine.
>
> With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is gone.
>
> I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he has
> no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field
> to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle.
>
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get
> > the slowdown.
> >
> > When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
> > machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its
> fast
> > on both - no consistency
> >
> > Lagi
> >
> >
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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-08 Thread Bernard Devlin via use-livecode

I pasted 8000 lines of text into Script Editor on Windows (just 1 large
block comment).  On typing chars take a couple of seconds to appear once
there is that much text.  Cut it down to 800 lines and it's fine.

With 8000 lines switch off "live errors" and the slow typing issue is gone.

I've asked Erik to try with 8000 line comment on his 32GB rig, since he has
no problems. He might have to increase the size of the text in that field
to 12000 or 16000, but I suspect eventually he too will get your treacle.

On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:52 PM Lagi Pittas via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get
> the slowdown.
>
> When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
> machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its fast
> on both - no consistency
>
> Lagi
>
>
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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

2021-09-08 Thread Bob Sneidar via use-livecode

I also have seen the autocomplete stop and start working, and that on a Mac. It 
may have something to do with the length of the script. I have also seen the 
extreme slowdown issue on Windows script editor and also in the performance. 
Most of the performance hit is in the frequent saves I inserted into my code to 
compensate for an old issue where the IDE would crash to desktop. But also I 
have tested sql queries, and they are also several times slower, as is 
populating datagrids and other things. 

As I have stated, I have done timing tests on several Windows platforms and 
have posted those results in the past, so I won't go through that exercise 
again. Suffice it to say that the Mac standalone I would be willing to market 
(if my code were good enough) but I would never attempt to market a Windows 
version of my code at this point. 

Bob S

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 08:47 , Lagi Pittas via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Ben,
> 
> I did some testing using the CPU% in the task manager - i was trying to do
> some more before sending in my results.
> It looks like if it has been running for some time but the time is not
> "quantified" at the moment as I have not been working
> on my project much these last few months.
> 
> When I do NOTICE the slowdown you cabn be sure i am not imagining seeing
> characters typing 1 per second or 2 or the debugger taking ages to go to
> the next step
> or the autocomplete stopping working even after a reboot and then starting
> again for no apparent reason.
> 
> Another real slowdown is when I have the project browser open or the
> messagebox - not always to the same extent or to the same sklowdown.
> 
> I will install 6 (although if I remember 6 was fine)
> 
> Regards Lagi
> 
> On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 13:14, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows
>> (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same
>> applies using LC 6.7?
>> 
>> It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or
>> whether it
>> came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other Windows-specific
>> speed
>> issues did.
>> 
>> Ben

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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

Hi Curry,

My Laptop is SSD and still the problems. , I have the problems with or
without defender on.I don't use third party antivirus anymore
as (especially with norton that customers still bloody buy)  you get lots
of eyecandy bloat and headaches - the best antivirus i have is
the one between my  ears.

Lagi

On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 14:23, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> Ben:
>
>  > It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue,
>  > or whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know
>  > some other Windows-specific speed issues did.
>
> Not "it". Instead a combination:
>
> 1. LC 7 Engine Performance issues.
> 2. New Windows antivirus trends affecting disk access.
> 3. Mediocre LC SE design with excessive disk access.
> 4. Lack of LC Dev Team adequate Windows use/testing.
> 5. Fewer "High Roller" or "VIP" LC users focused on Windows.
> 6. New SE "wow" features built atop Mediocre LC SE design.
> 7. Perhaps others/still unknown.
>
> Long thread(s) about this previously including one by myself.
>
> Solutions for many:
>
> 1. Only use SSD, never HDD.
> 2. Tweak antivirus, disable intensive options.
> 3. Turn off some fancy newer SE bling options.
> 4. Adequate memory, optimize PC.
>
> I've had no problems since SSD.
>
> (But yeah, it's mostly mediocre IDE design + antivirus trends,
> plus Mac is the teacher's pet and favored platform.)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Curry Kenworthy
>
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>
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Re: AW: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)

Also can I make clear that I dont think it is the size of the script.

Originally I had a 2000 line library stack and 14000 line main stack

When it works it works - I cut the main stack to 7000 lines and still get
the slowdown.

When it slows down its the same treacle/quicksand/molasses whether the
machine is a 10th gen with 16g or an 8gig pentium - when its fast its fast
on both - no consistency

Lagi

On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 13:39, Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks Tiemo.
>
> I think it would help LiveCode address this issue if we knew two things:
> - if this is something that changed at some point, what was that
> point
> - if this doesn't affect everyone on Windows, what are the
> relevant distinctions
>
> In relation to the first question, if someone who is experiencing the
> problem
> was able to test using
>
> https://livecodestatic.com/downloads/livecode/7_0_0/LiveCodeInstaller-7_0_0-Windows.exe
> and
>
> https://livecodestatic.com/downloads/livecode/6_7_11/LiveCodeCommercialInstaller-6_7_11-Windows.exe
> and confirm whether there's a dramatic difference in IDE speed, that would
> help. (Unfortunately since the licensing changes, the available installers
> for
> these old versions require someone with a commercial license.)
>
> In relation to the second, by my count four people have now reported
> harrowingly slow IDE performance on Windows. I think at least two have
> said
> it's fine for them. Could we get a catalogue of the setups which do and
> don't
> experience the issue?
>
> Ben
>
>
> On 08/09/2021 13:26, Tiemo via use-livecode wrote:
> > The response of the IDE on Windows is harrowing slow. It's definitely no
> fun and is chilling for every newbe!
> > I tried all tweaks without result.
> >
> > For me the hassle started with LC 7 (if I remember right)
> >
> > Tiemo
> >
> >
> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> > Von: use-livecode  Im Auftrag
> von Ben Rubinstein via use-livecode
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2021 14:14
> > An: Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
> > Cc: Ben Rubinstein 
> > Betreff: Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community
> Edition)
> >
> > May I repeat my request that anyone experiencing these issues on Windows
> (Andre, Lagi, Bob), could if possible confirm whether they find the same
> applies using LC 6.7?
> >
> > It would be good to understand if this has always been an issue, or
> whether it came in with the switch to LC7, as we know some other
> Windows-specific speed issues did.
> >
> > Ben
> >
> > On 08/09/2021 11:17, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:
> >> I mean the script editor mostly but also the rest of the ide has a bit
> of jank. Laying out interfaces on Windows has been worse than doing it on a
> Mac. The worse offender is the script editor though.
> >>
> >>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 23:28, Scott Morrow via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Andre, when you say “so bad” do you mean the script editor or… ?
> >>> --
> >>> Scott Morrow
> >>>
> >>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> to be honest, the IDE on Windows has been so bad for me that it
> caused me to switch back to a mac...
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
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Re: IDE performance (Re: Suggestion: Non-Appbuilding Community Edition)