Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Martin Grigorov]

Hi Andrew,

There are different tools for different tasks. That's clear.
You prefer tools which generate code for you, I prefer finer control.
That's OK.

About performance check
http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r3
I'm not trying to convince you anything :-)



On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Andrew Schetinin wrote:

> Hi Alexey,
>
> Well, you're right.
>
> To me, RAD was always about GUI prototyping or massive GUI development,
> turning around code generation tools.
>
> I've checked the terminology and found that it is a broader term, even
> mixed up with Agile and Scrum which are more about project management and
> not about tools.
>
> So if we're talking about more general tools for quickening the application
> development, your toolset is very good.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew
>
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Alexey Mukas  >wrote:
>
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > For UI we use jquery ui, select2, noty and other js components.
> Integration
> > is pretty simple in wicket.
> > We don't really need any UI designer or CRUD form generation, we just
> > create
> > html then bind it to the logic. CRUD generation could be added easily if
> > needed.
> > "Basic core services" as you said, in our case is something that allows
> us
> > to work rapidly, may be because we don't work on a CRUD app...
> >
> > I forgot to mention one very nice tool - lombok. It significantly
> decreases
> > amount lines in code.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> >
> http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/What-is-your-setup-for-Rapid-Application-Development-tp4658278p4658287.html
> > Sent from the Users forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew
>
> --
> Andrew Schetinin
>



-- 
Martin Grigorov
jWeekend
Training, Consulting, Development
http://jWeekend.com 

Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Andrew Schetinin]

Hi Alexey,

Well, you're right.

To me, RAD was always about GUI prototyping or massive GUI development,
turning around code generation tools.

I've checked the terminology and found that it is a broader term, even
mixed up with Agile and Scrum which are more about project management and
not about tools.

So if we're talking about more general tools for quickening the application
development, your toolset is very good.

Regards,

Andrew

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Alexey Mukas wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> For UI we use jquery ui, select2, noty and other js components. Integration
> is pretty simple in wicket.
> We don't really need any UI designer or CRUD form generation, we just
> create
> html then bind it to the logic. CRUD generation could be added easily if
> needed.
> "Basic core services" as you said, in our case is something that allows us
> to work rapidly, may be because we don't work on a CRUD app...
>
> I forgot to mention one very nice tool - lombok. It significantly decreases
> amount lines in code.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/What-is-your-setup-for-Rapid-Application-Development-tp4658278p4658287.html
> Sent from the Users forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
>
>


-- 

Regards,

Andrew

--
Andrew Schetinin

Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Andrew Schetinin]

Hi Martin,

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Martin Grigorov wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Andrew Schetinin  >wrote:
>
> It is not the maintenance cost the problem.
> The reason why these frameworks have been abandoned is because there were
> no users for them. Or at least not enough.
>

Then again - I'm wondering why Grails and Rails are successful (huge user
base) and these frameworks are not (don't have enough users) :-)
Grails and Rails are simply very good RAD tools, isn't that right?
I strongly believe that Wicket would be able to attract much larger user
base if only it would have a better set of UI components, and better RAD
tooling.
The situation improves lately, but very slowly - not fast enough to
complete with other frameworks.


>
> I hope you have told them that you have considered Isis but choose to roll
> your own solution because their docs are lacking. Without your feedback it
> wont get better by itself ;-)
>
>
I considered Isis for a separate new project with lots of admin UI, and
compared it against Play (1 or 2) and Grails. Finally I've decided to go
with Grails in that case.
Our main product was started quite some time ago, long before Isis (or long
before I had learned about Isis).
Back than we also seriously considered Grails as a Wicket alternative, and
started using Wicket due to performance. Honestly, I'm still wondering
about correctness of that decision, but that's another story :-)


>
> But even that I know about Isis, and their great support in forums, etc. I
> would still prefer to create my own solution for the problem because it
> will be much easier for me.
>
>
Personally, I'd prefer to have a rich framework to start building upon,
instead of developing another bicycle.

Regards,

Andrew

--
Andrew Schetinin

Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Martin Grigorov]

Hi Andrew,


On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Andrew Schetinin wrote:

> Hi Martin,
>
> See inside...
>
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Martin Grigorov  >wrote:
>
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Andrew Schetinin  > >wrote:
> >
> > > In our case, we had to implement the second option, suitable for our
> > needs
> >
> > Can you explain what do you mean by "suitable for our needs" ?
> > From your message above this phrase it seems RAD/CRUD are something
> > universal that will fit any needs. But then you say _our needs_ ...
> >
>
> We have a pretty basic framework that allows defining an edit form logic in
> Java without touching any HTML, and the HTML is generated automatically
> from common blocks.
> The idea is basic and universal, but the implementation is relatively
> tightly coupled with the back-end, and making it more generic (or even
> open-sourcing it) requires significant efforts - not something we can do at
> this stage.
>
> This is the reason why there are no such at the moment. Or at least not
> > widely used.
> >
>
> That's right - it requires a lot of efforts to maintain any framework. From
>

It is not the maintenance cost the problem.
The reason why these frameworks have been abandoned is because there were
no users for them. Or at least not enough.


> the other side - consider Rails and Grails - they do have to have RAD GUI
> and they are very successful mostly because of that fact.
>
>   - http://isis.apache.org/ (see it Wicket Viewer) (very well maintained.
> I
>
> > have no information how many users it has)
> >
>
> I considered this one for one of the last projects, but found its
> documentation lacking, and decided it is not enough supported.
>

The Isis developers are very friendly and they provide fast support in
their mailing lists.
I hope you have told them that you have considered Isis but choose to roll
your own solution because their docs are lacking. Without your feedback it
wont get better by itself ;-)


But even that I know about Isis, and their great support in forums, etc. I
would still prefer to create my own solution for the problem because it
will be much easier for me.


>
> > Then you will figure out that Ruby/Groovy performance is not that good
> and
> > you will have to reimplement your prototype with something else ...
> >
> >
> Well, that's a holy war topic :-) I better will not touch it :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew
>
> --
> Andrew Schetinin
>



-- 
Martin Grigorov
jWeekend
Training, Consulting, Development
http://jWeekend.com 

Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Dan Simko]

Please take a look also on https://github.com/brix-cms/brix-cms/wiki


On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Andrew Schetinin wrote:

> Hi Martin,
>
> See inside...
>
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Martin Grigorov  >wrote:
>
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Andrew Schetinin  > >wrote:
> >
> > > In our case, we had to implement the second option, suitable for our
> > needs
> >
> > Can you explain what do you mean by "suitable for our needs" ?
> > From your message above this phrase it seems RAD/CRUD are something
> > universal that will fit any needs. But then you say _our needs_ ...
> >
>
> We have a pretty basic framework that allows defining an edit form logic in
> Java without touching any HTML, and the HTML is generated automatically
> from common blocks.
> The idea is basic and universal, but the implementation is relatively
> tightly coupled with the back-end, and making it more generic (or even
> open-sourcing it) requires significant efforts - not something we can do at
> this stage.
>
> This is the reason why there are no such at the moment. Or at least not
> > widely used.
> >
>
> That's right - it requires a lot of efforts to maintain any framework. From
> the other side - consider Rails and Grails - they do have to have RAD GUI
> and they are very successful mostly because of that fact.
>
>   - http://isis.apache.org/ (see it Wicket Viewer) (very well maintained.
> I
>
> > have no information how many users it has)
> >
>
> I considered this one for one of the last projects, but found its
> documentation lacking, and decided it is not enough supported.
>
>
> > Then you will figure out that Ruby/Groovy performance is not that good
> and
> > you will have to reimplement your prototype with something else ...
> >
> >
> Well, that's a holy war topic :-) I better will not touch it :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew
>
> --
> Andrew Schetinin
>

Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Andrew Schetinin]

Hi Martin,

See inside...

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Martin Grigorov wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Andrew Schetinin  >wrote:
>
> > In our case, we had to implement the second option, suitable for our
> needs
>
> Can you explain what do you mean by "suitable for our needs" ?
> From your message above this phrase it seems RAD/CRUD are something
> universal that will fit any needs. But then you say _our needs_ ...
>

We have a pretty basic framework that allows defining an edit form logic in
Java without touching any HTML, and the HTML is generated automatically
from common blocks.
The idea is basic and universal, but the implementation is relatively
tightly coupled with the back-end, and making it more generic (or even
open-sourcing it) requires significant efforts - not something we can do at
this stage.

This is the reason why there are no such at the moment. Or at least not
> widely used.
>

That's right - it requires a lot of efforts to maintain any framework. From
the other side - consider Rails and Grails - they do have to have RAD GUI
and they are very successful mostly because of that fact.

  - http://isis.apache.org/ (see it Wicket Viewer) (very well maintained. I

> have no information how many users it has)
>

I considered this one for one of the last projects, but found its
documentation lacking, and decided it is not enough supported.


> Then you will figure out that Ruby/Groovy performance is not that good and
> you will have to reimplement your prototype with something else ...
>
>
Well, that's a holy war topic :-) I better will not touch it :-)

Regards,

Andrew

--
Andrew Schetinin

Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Martin Grigorov]

Hi Andrew,

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Andrew Schetinin wrote:

> Hi Alexey,
>
> RAD requires a set of good visual components (not a strong side of Wicket,
> unfortunately), and one of the two features - either a visual form editor
> (10 years ago), or automated CRUD forms generation (today) - again not a
> strong side of Wicket.
>
> In our case, we had to implement the second option, suitable for our needs
>

Can you explain what do you mean by "suitable for our needs" ?
>From your message above this phrase it seems RAD/CRUD are something
universal that will fit any needs. But then you say _our needs_ ...

This is the reason why there are no such at the moment. Or at least not
widely used.
Some examples:
- https://sites.google.com/site/wicketrad/ (abandoned few years ago)
- http://wicketwebbeans.sourceforge.net/ (abandoned few years ago)
- https://github.com/jwcarman/Wicketopia  (maintained, but there are no
many users)
and I left the one that is very well maintained for the end:
- http://isis.apache.org/ (see it Wicket Viewer) (very well maintained. I
have no information how many users it has)


> - at least Wicket is more or less okay for that.
>

I agree. It is very easy to roll your own solution that fits _your_ needs.


>
> Mentioned services are basic core services, I'd say low-level - they are
> necessary, but they don't mean RAD. For RAD, you need something like Rails
> or Grails.
>

Then you will figure out that Ruby/Groovy performance is not that good and
you will have to reimplement your prototype with something else ...


>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew Schetinin
>

This is just my personal opinion.


>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Alexey Mukas  >wrote:
>
> > In our project we are using the following tools/libs:
> >  - hibernate;
> >  - LiquiBase (db migration);
> >  - wro4j (for merging/compiling js, less and coffee script);
> >  - slf4j + logback;
> >  - selenium;
> >  - testng;
> >  - jmockit;
> >  - jmeter.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> >
> http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/What-is-your-setup-for-Rapid-Application-Development-tp4658278p4658282.html
> > Sent from the Users forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
> >
> >
>



-- 
Martin Grigorov
jWeekend
Training, Consulting, Development
http://jWeekend.com 

Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Vit Rozkovec]

Hi,
in past there was project Wicket Web Beans that we have used, but it is 
dead now.
You could just pass an annotated bean object and form would be created 
for you.

There were also components to list records along with basic CRUD operations.


There is also one project - Wicketopia - http://wicketopia.sourceforge.net/
which may server the same purpose but I haven't tried it yet..


Vit





On 26.4.2013 08:01, Alexey Mukas wrote:

Hi Andrew,

For UI we use jquery ui, select2, noty and other js components. Integration
is pretty simple in wicket.
We don't really need any UI designer or CRUD form generation, we just create
html then bind it to the logic. CRUD generation could be added easily if
needed.
"Basic core services" as you said, in our case is something that allows us
to work rapidly, may be because we don't work on a CRUD app...

I forgot to mention one very nice tool - lombok. It significantly decreases
amount lines in code.



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Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Alexey Mukas]

Hi Andrew,

For UI we use jquery ui, select2, noty and other js components. Integration
is pretty simple in wicket.
We don't really need any UI designer or CRUD form generation, we just create
html then bind it to the logic. CRUD generation could be added easily if
needed.
"Basic core services" as you said, in our case is something that allows us
to work rapidly, may be because we don't work on a CRUD app...

I forgot to mention one very nice tool - lombok. It significantly decreases
amount lines in code.



--
View this message in context: 
http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/What-is-your-setup-for-Rapid-Application-Development-tp4658278p4658287.html
Sent from the Users forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org
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Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Andrew Schetinin]

Hi Alexey,

RAD requires a set of good visual components (not a strong side of Wicket,
unfortunately), and one of the two features - either a visual form editor
(10 years ago), or automated CRUD forms generation (today) - again not a
strong side of Wicket.

In our case, we had to implement the second option, suitable for our needs
- at least Wicket is more or less okay for that.

Mentioned services are basic core services, I'd say low-level - they are
necessary, but they don't mean RAD. For RAD, you need something like Rails
or Grails.

Regards,

Andrew Schetinin

On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Alexey Mukas wrote:

> In our project we are using the following tools/libs:
>  - hibernate;
>  - LiquiBase (db migration);
>  - wro4j (for merging/compiling js, less and coffee script);
>  - slf4j + logback;
>  - selenium;
>  - testng;
>  - jmockit;
>  - jmeter.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/What-is-your-setup-for-Rapid-Application-Development-tp4658278p4658282.html
> Sent from the Users forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@wicket.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@wicket.apache.org
>
>

Re: What is your setup for Rapid Application Development?

[Alexey Mukas]

In our project we are using the following tools/libs:
 - hibernate;
 - LiquiBase (db migration);
 - wro4j (for merging/compiling js, less and coffee script);
 - slf4j + logback;
 - selenium;
 - testng;
 - jmockit;
 - jmeter.



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