Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Jessica Rosner]

I am not sure vendor's don't understand the face to face exemption, but at
a minimum some just are very sloppy in how they explain things on their
sites. As I said in my first email I think titles where the vast majority
of interest is going to be the institutional market I think it is best to
bypass individual sales to avoid confusion and resentment. However if you
do want to sell to individuals and prevent them from using their legally
acquired copies in a class you need to have a very specific contract agreed
to at the point of purchase. It is perfectly legal to restrict the use of a
DVD if you make that part of contract the buyer is well aware of and
accepts.

I will say that a lot of filmmakers are genuinely ignorant of the law and
actually believe there is some kind of requirement that institutions pay
more. I have had one very frustrating case of this and after sending over
various links including the copyright law I just gave up.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Bergman, Barbara J <
barbara.berg...@mnsu.edu> wrote:

> It's the vendor's prerogative to sell at different prices, but it annoys
> me when a film vendor doesn't understand U.S. copyright law and tries to
> grant or deny classroom screening rights -- which are explicitly allowed in
> section 110 of the copyright law.
> I expect that the higher institutional price will include a  license for
> public performance rights, but it has nothing to do with classroom use.
>
> In this case, I would reply to the vendor, politely explaining the
> classroom exemption vs PPR.
> If the pricing is more than you want to pay - ask the vendor about
> discounts.  I think we all understand that it's not feasible for most
> filmmakers to make a profit at $25 a DVD, but there's usually some room to
> work with.
>
> (I like discounts because stretching my funds means I ultimately am able
> to add more film titles for my patrons :-)
>
> And Richard - if you haven't attended the National Media Market, it's a
> great way to get to talk one-on-one with vendors and other video buying
> librarians.
>
> Barb Bergman | Media Services & Interlibrary Loan Librarian | Minnesota
> State University, Mankato | (507) 389-5945 | barbara.berg...@mnsu.edu
>
> -Original Message-
> From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:
> videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Graham
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 10:27 AM
> To: cams...@lists.carleton.edu
> Cc: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> Subject: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
>
> Fellow camslib/videolib folks,
>
> A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts
> and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books.  At the site to
> purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears (
> http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and
> school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend
> nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not
> granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but
> these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned
> that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future
> productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent
> documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare
> tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm
> probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts
> are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make
>   these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these
> sort of acquisition situations?
>
> Cheers from Nebraska,
>
> Richard
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
wor

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Bergman, Barbara J]

It's the vendor's prerogative to sell at different prices, but it annoys me 
when a film vendor doesn't understand U.S. copyright law and tries to grant or 
deny classroom screening rights -- which are explicitly allowed in section 110 
of the copyright law.
I expect that the higher institutional price will include a  license for public 
performance rights, but it has nothing to do with classroom use.

In this case, I would reply to the vendor, politely explaining the classroom 
exemption vs PPR.
If the pricing is more than you want to pay - ask the vendor about discounts.  
I think we all understand that it's not feasible for most filmmakers to make a 
profit at $25 a DVD, but there's usually some room to work with.

(I like discounts because stretching my funds means I ultimately am able to add 
more film titles for my patrons :-)

And Richard - if you haven't attended the National Media Market, it's a great 
way to get to talk one-on-one with vendors and other video buying librarians.

Barb Bergman | Media Services & Interlibrary Loan Librarian | Minnesota State 
University, Mankato | (507) 389-5945 | barbara.berg...@mnsu.edu

-Original Message-
From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu 
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Graham
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 10:27 AM
To: cams...@lists.carleton.edu
Cc: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

Fellow camslib/videolib folks, 

A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts and 
Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books.  At the site to purchase 
it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears 
(http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and 
school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly 
$200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted 
rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort of 
statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some publishers 
do this because they need funds to cover future productions and it's a way for 
large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but I can't help 
feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily 
absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I 
wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with 
publishers/producers to make
  these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of 
acquisition situations?

Cheers from Nebraska,

Richard
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Linda Duchin]

The price for a 16mm 5-year lease for classroom use only was between $1500
and $2000!  

Linda


Linda Duchin
VP Nontheatrical Sales
New Yorker Films
220 East 23rd St., Ste. 409
New York, NY 10011
linda.duc...@newyorkerfilms.com
www,newyorkerfilms.com

Phone: 212-645-4600








On 9/20/12 8:08 PM, "Deg Farrelly"  wrote:

> To add to this ongoing discussionŠ a question directed to those who have
> been in the industry for a long timeŠ
> 
> What were the going charges for a film in 16mm back in the day before
> video?
> 
> I recall wanting desperately to have in my collection many of the
> Time-Life/McGraw Hill/Pyramid and such titles, but just could not afford
> them with my @$10-15,000 budget.
> 
> I was thrilled when I managed to pick up used preview prints of "Ascent of
> Man" for $100 per print. (about 1979, but that is a guess)  With
> inflation, that figure roughly equates to $296 today. And that was for a
> used print.
> 
> We didn't have the home video market at the time.
> 
> -deg
> 
> deg farrelly, Media Librarian
> Arizona State University Libraries
> Hayden Library C1H1
> P.O. Box 871006
> Tempe, Arizona  85287-1006
> Phone:  602.332.3103
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.



VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Jessica Rosner]

A couple of things Jay. The discussion here is basically about specialized
educational media which is not sold retail/wholesale as your titles would
be. These are in most cases exclusive distribution deals of material which
is largely of interest only to the academic community ( not covering folks
who post on fiction feature/ theatrical films which I do myself sometimes)

Some companies like California Newsreel specialize in particular genre
/theme of film and in many cases these films and even some of the promotion
is supported by grants and other funding from non profit groups who
specifically support their mission. As such it is not shocking that they
would offer special discounts to a target audience particularly one which
traditionally has more limited funds.

As noted by others you can always try to negotiate on pricing. Many
distributors and filmmakers are sensitive to special needs and limited
funds.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Music Hunter wrote:

> I never heard of “ race based pricing “. That certainly does not sound “
> right “ to me. Music Hunter offers maximum discounts to all institutions.*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> Now that’s a RANT!
>
> ** **
>
> Your search for sound & video ends here!
>
> Jay Sonin, General Manager
> Music Hunter Distributing Company
> 4880 North Citation Drive, Suite # 101
> Delray Beach, Florida 33445-6552
> *musichunter...@gmail.com 
> *561-450-7152* *
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:
> videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] *On Behalf Of *Nellie J Chenault
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 20, 2012 4:01 PM
>
> *To:* videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
>
> ** **
>
> I do not object to institutional pricing.  There are similar models with
> journal subscriptions for institutions vs. individual.  I do like to get
> some public performance rights when we pay the institutional price.  PPR
> may be needed in some countries for classroom use, but it is not needed
> within the U.S..  Some of the newer vendors within this market have tried
> to give no PPR but classroom use rights with institutional pricing ...
> wrong headed!
>
> ** **
>
> Some vendors do have a mission to serve select communities.  Discounts for
> historically black colleges is a good discount fit in this case.  
>
> ** **
>
> Budgets for higher ed, community colleges and public libraries vary per
> institution.  A prefer a medium priced institutional price to tiered
> pricing.  I do know that most pubic libraries have strong guidelines about
> purchases over say ... $100... and there are few purchases of independent
> educational documentaries by this type library.
>
> ** **
>
> Nell Chenault
>
> Research Librarian for Film and Music
>
> VCU Libraries
>
> Virginia Commonwealth University
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Susan Albrecht 
> wrote:
>
> Susan at Wabash College wrote:
> Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with
> publishers/producers/small distributors.  My answer is YES, and I did so in
> yesterday's case .  I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered
> pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges
> and universities lumped together.  I mean, c'mon.  With our FTE of 865,
> should  we *really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or
> Rutgers?  Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or
> Butler?  To me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as
> "college or university."  So I do ask.  And many times the
> producer/distributor understands and makes a reasonable alternative offer.
>  So I say it's worth asking.
>
> Judy replied:
>
> Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses
> surprise that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their
> courses use and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by
> the number of potential users, i.e. enrollment.
>
> 
>
> Susan again:
> Fair enough.  I wasn't actually proposing that these producers and
> distributors have an ever-upward pricing scheme, though, where they charge
> more and more for higher and higher enrollments.  I was simply suggesting
> that tiered pricing schemes almost always seem to have THREE components --
>  home use, public library/community college, college/university -- and when
> the college is very small, I think it makes sense to ask for something
> comparable to the PL/community college rate.  In a couple of cases, I work
> with vendors who do just that for us.  In yesterday's situation, the off

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[John Hoskyns-Abrahall]

We charged $850 for an hour-long film and $550 for a half-hour.  Of course 
everything was expensive: creating the internegative, making prints, even the 
reels, shipping cases and of course postage, because of the weight.

VHS was a lot cheaper, but now with DVD and streaming there are all sorts of 
upfront costs again in captioning and authoring DVDs, encoding for online, 
storage and streaming costs etc.

Face it.  We're in an expensive business from top to toe.

    John Hoskyns-Abrahall
 

Bullfrog Films
PO Box 149
Oley, PA  19547
Toll-Free:  800/543-3764
Email: j...@bullfrogfilms.com
http://www.bullfrogfilms.com
Voice: 610/779-8226
Fax: 610/370-1978

-Original Message-
From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu 
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Deg Farrelly
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 8:09 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

To add to this ongoing discussionŠ a question directed to those who have been 
in the industry for a long timeŠ

What were the going charges for a film in 16mm back in the day before video?

I recall wanting desperately to have in my collection many of the 
Time-Life/McGraw Hill/Pyramid and such titles, but just could not afford them 
with my @$10-15,000 budget.

I was thrilled when I managed to pick up used preview prints of "Ascent of Man" 
for $100 per print. (about 1979, but that is a guess)  With inflation, that 
figure roughly equates to $296 today. And that was for a used print.

We didn't have the home video market at the time.

-deg

deg farrelly, Media Librarian
Arizona State University Libraries
Hayden Library C1H1
P.O. Box 871006
Tempe, Arizona  85287-1006
Phone:  602.332.3103




VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Deg Farrelly]

To add to this ongoing discussionŠ a question directed to those who have
been in the industry for a long timeŠ

What were the going charges for a film in 16mm back in the day before
video?

I recall wanting desperately to have in my collection many of the
Time-Life/McGraw Hill/Pyramid and such titles, but just could not afford
them with my @$10-15,000 budget.

I was thrilled when I managed to pick up used preview prints of "Ascent of
Man" for $100 per print. (about 1979, but that is a guess)  With
inflation, that figure roughly equates to $296 today. And that was for a
used print.

We didn't have the home video market at the time.

-deg

deg farrelly, Media Librarian
Arizona State University Libraries
Hayden Library C1H1
P.O. Box 871006
Tempe, Arizona  85287-1006
Phone:  602.332.3103




VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Music Hunter]

My comment was addressed to this:

 

"Discounts for historically black colleges is a good discount fit in this
case."  

Why shouldn't the discount be available to all colleges & libraries?

We offer maximum discounst to ALL institutions.

Jay Sonin, General Manager
Music Hunter Distributing Company
4880 North Citation Drive, Suite # 101
Delray Beach, Florida 33445-6552
musichunter...@gmail.com <mailto:musichun...@nyc.rr.com> 
561-450-7152 

 

From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Nellie J Chenault
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:31 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

 

This vendor distribution focus is African American films.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Music Hunter 
wrote:

I never heard of " race based pricing ". That certainly does not sound "
right " to me. Music Hunter offers maximum discounts to all institutions.

 

Now that's a RANT!

 

Your search for sound & video ends here!

Jay Sonin, General Manager
Music Hunter Distributing Company
4880 North Citation Drive, Suite # 101
Delray Beach, Florida 33445-6552
musichunter...@gmail.com <mailto:musichun...@nyc.rr.com> 
561-450-7152 

 

From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Nellie J Chenault
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 4:01 PM


To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

 

I do not object to institutional pricing.  There are similar models with
journal subscriptions for institutions vs. individual.  I do like to get
some public performance rights when we pay the institutional price.  PPR may
be needed in some countries for classroom use, but it is not needed within
the U.S..  Some of the newer vendors within this market have tried to give
no PPR but classroom use rights with institutional pricing ... wrong headed!

 

Some vendors do have a mission to serve select communities.  Discounts for
historically black colleges is a good discount fit in this case.  

 

Budgets for higher ed, community colleges and public libraries vary per
institution.  A prefer a medium priced institutional price to tiered
pricing.  I do know that most pubic libraries have strong guidelines about
purchases over say ... $100... and there are few purchases of independent
educational documentaries by this type library.

 

Nell Chenault

Research Librarian for Film and Music

VCU Libraries

Virginia Commonwealth University

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Susan Albrecht  wrote:

Susan at Wabash College wrote:
Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with
publishers/producers/small distributors.  My answer is YES, and I did so in
yesterday's case .  I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered
pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges
and universities lumped together.  I mean, c'mon.  With our FTE of 865,
should  we *really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or
Rutgers?  Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or
Butler?  To me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as
"college or university."  So I do ask.  And many times the
producer/distributor understands and makes a reasonable alternative offer.
So I say it's worth asking.

Judy replied:

Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses
surprise that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their
courses use and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by the
number of potential users, i.e. enrollment.

Susan again:
Fair enough.  I wasn't actually proposing that these producers and
distributors have an ever-upward pricing scheme, though, where they charge
more and more for higher and higher enrollments.  I was simply suggesting
that tiered pricing schemes almost always seem to have THREE components --
home use, public library/community college, college/university -- and when
the college is very small, I think it makes sense to ask for something
comparable to the PL/community college rate.  In a couple of cases, I work
with vendors who do just that for us.  In yesterday's situation, the offer
came in between the standard college/university and public library.

Susan at Wabash




VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.

 


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Nellie J Chenault]

This vendor distribution focus is African American films.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Music Hunter wrote:

> I never heard of “ race based pricing “. That certainly does not sound “
> right “ to me. Music Hunter offers maximum discounts to all institutions.*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> Now that’s a RANT!
>
> ** **
>
> Your search for sound & video ends here!
>
> Jay Sonin, General Manager
> Music Hunter Distributing Company
> 4880 North Citation Drive, Suite # 101
> Delray Beach, Florida 33445-6552
> *musichunter...@gmail.com 
> *561-450-7152* *
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:
> videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] *On Behalf Of *Nellie J Chenault
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 20, 2012 4:01 PM
>
> *To:* videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
>
> ** **
>
> I do not object to institutional pricing.  There are similar models with
> journal subscriptions for institutions vs. individual.  I do like to get
> some public performance rights when we pay the institutional price.  PPR
> may be needed in some countries for classroom use, but it is not needed
> within the U.S..  Some of the newer vendors within this market have tried
> to give no PPR but classroom use rights with institutional pricing ...
> wrong headed!
>
> ** **
>
> Some vendors do have a mission to serve select communities.  Discounts for
> historically black colleges is a good discount fit in this case.  
>
> ** **
>
> Budgets for higher ed, community colleges and public libraries vary per
> institution.  A prefer a medium priced institutional price to tiered
> pricing.  I do know that most pubic libraries have strong guidelines about
> purchases over say ... $100... and there are few purchases of independent
> educational documentaries by this type library.
>
> ** **
>
> Nell Chenault
>
> Research Librarian for Film and Music
>
> VCU Libraries
>
> Virginia Commonwealth University
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Susan Albrecht 
> wrote:
>
> Susan at Wabash College wrote:
> Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with
> publishers/producers/small distributors.  My answer is YES, and I did so in
> yesterday's case .  I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered
> pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges
> and universities lumped together.  I mean, c'mon.  With our FTE of 865,
> should  we *really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or
> Rutgers?  Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or
> Butler?  To me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as
> "college or university."  So I do ask.  And many times the
> producer/distributor understands and makes a reasonable alternative offer.
>  So I say it's worth asking.
>
> Judy replied:
>
> Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses
> surprise that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their
> courses use and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by
> the number of potential users, i.e. enrollment.
>
> 
>
> Susan again:
> Fair enough.  I wasn't actually proposing that these producers and
> distributors have an ever-upward pricing scheme, though, where they charge
> more and more for higher and higher enrollments.  I was simply suggesting
> that tiered pricing schemes almost always seem to have THREE components --
>  home use, public library/community college, college/university -- and when
> the college is very small, I think it makes sense to ask for something
> comparable to the PL/community college rate.  In a couple of cases, I work
> with vendors who do just that for us.  In yesterday's situation, the offer
> came in between the standard college/university and public library.
>
> Susan at Wabash
>
>
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>
> ** **
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving v

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Music Hunter]

I never heard of " race based pricing ". That certainly does not sound "
right " to me. Music Hunter offers maximum discounts to all institutions.

 

Now that's a RANT!

 

Your search for sound & video ends here!

Jay Sonin, General Manager
Music Hunter Distributing Company
4880 North Citation Drive, Suite # 101
Delray Beach, Florida 33445-6552
musichunter...@gmail.com <mailto:musichun...@nyc.rr.com> 
561-450-7152 

 

From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Nellie J Chenault
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 4:01 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

 

I do not object to institutional pricing.  There are similar models with
journal subscriptions for institutions vs. individual.  I do like to get
some public performance rights when we pay the institutional price.  PPR may
be needed in some countries for classroom use, but it is not needed within
the U.S..  Some of the newer vendors within this market have tried to give
no PPR but classroom use rights with institutional pricing ... wrong headed!

 

Some vendors do have a mission to serve select communities.  Discounts for
historically black colleges is a good discount fit in this case.  

 

Budgets for higher ed, community colleges and public libraries vary per
institution.  A prefer a medium priced institutional price to tiered
pricing.  I do know that most pubic libraries have strong guidelines about
purchases over say ... $100... and there are few purchases of independent
educational documentaries by this type library.

 

Nell Chenault

Research Librarian for Film and Music

VCU Libraries

Virginia Commonwealth University

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Susan Albrecht  wrote:

Susan at Wabash College wrote:
Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with
publishers/producers/small distributors.  My answer is YES, and I did so in
yesterday's case .  I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered
pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges
and universities lumped together.  I mean, c'mon.  With our FTE of 865,
should  we *really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or
Rutgers?  Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or
Butler?  To me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as
"college or university."  So I do ask.  And many times the
producer/distributor understands and makes a reasonable alternative offer.
So I say it's worth asking.

Judy replied:

Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses
surprise that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their
courses use and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by the
number of potential users, i.e. enrollment.



Susan again:
Fair enough.  I wasn't actually proposing that these producers and
distributors have an ever-upward pricing scheme, though, where they charge
more and more for higher and higher enrollments.  I was simply suggesting
that tiered pricing schemes almost always seem to have THREE components --
home use, public library/community college, college/university -- and when
the college is very small, I think it makes sense to ask for something
comparable to the PL/community college rate.  In a couple of cases, I work
with vendors who do just that for us.  In yesterday's situation, the offer
came in between the standard college/university and public library.

Susan at Wabash




VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.

 

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Nellie J Chenault]

I do not object to institutional pricing.  There are similar models with
journal subscriptions for institutions vs. individual.  I do like to get
some public performance rights when we pay the institutional price.  PPR
may be needed in some countries for classroom use, but it is not needed
within the U.S..  Some of the newer vendors within this market have tried
to give no PPR but classroom use rights with institutional pricing ...
wrong headed!

Some vendors do have a mission to serve select communities.  Discounts for
historically black colleges is a good discount fit in this case.

Budgets for higher ed, community colleges and public libraries vary per
institution.  A prefer a medium priced institutional price to tiered
pricing.  I do know that most pubic libraries have strong guidelines about
purchases over say ... $100... and there are few purchases of independent
educational documentaries by this type library.

Nell Chenault
Research Librarian for Film and Music
VCU Libraries
Virginia Commonwealth University

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Susan Albrecht  wrote:

> Susan at Wabash College wrote:
> Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with
> publishers/producers/small distributors.  My answer is YES, and I did so in
> yesterday's case .  I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered
> pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges
> and universities lumped together.  I mean, c'mon.  With our FTE of 865,
> should  we *really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or
> Rutgers?  Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or
> Butler?  To me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as
> "college or university."  So I do ask.  And many times the
> producer/distributor understands and makes a reasonable alternative offer.
>  So I say it's worth asking.
>
> Judy replied:
> Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses
> surprise that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their
> courses use and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by
> the number of potential users, i.e. enrollment.
>
>
> Susan again:
> Fair enough.  I wasn't actually proposing that these producers and
> distributors have an ever-upward pricing scheme, though, where they charge
> more and more for higher and higher enrollments.  I was simply suggesting
> that tiered pricing schemes almost always seem to have THREE components --
>  home use, public library/community college, college/university -- and when
> the college is very small, I think it makes sense to ask for something
> comparable to the PL/community college rate.  In a couple of cases, I work
> with vendors who do just that for us.  In yesterday's situation, the offer
> came in between the standard college/university and public library.
>
> Susan at Wabash
>
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Susan Albrecht]

Susan at Wabash College wrote:
Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with 
publishers/producers/small distributors.  My answer is YES, and I did so in 
yesterday's case .  I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered 
pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges and 
universities lumped together.  I mean, c'mon.  With our FTE of 865, should  we 
*really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or Rutgers?  
Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or Butler?  To 
me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as "college or 
university."  So I do ask.  And many times the producer/distributor understands 
and makes a reasonable alternative offer.  So I say it's worth asking.

Judy replied:
Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses surprise 
that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their courses use 
and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by the number of 
potential users, i.e. enrollment. 


Susan again:
Fair enough.  I wasn't actually proposing that these producers and distributors 
have an ever-upward pricing scheme, though, where they charge more and more for 
higher and higher enrollments.  I was simply suggesting that tiered pricing 
schemes almost always seem to have THREE components --  home use, public 
library/community college, college/university -- and when the college is very 
small, I think it makes sense to ask for something comparable to the 
PL/community college rate.  In a couple of cases, I work with vendors who do 
just that for us.  In yesterday's situation, the offer came in between the 
standard college/university and public library.  

Susan at Wabash



VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Music Hunter]

Speaking as distributor of all labels, we have found that most of our
university clients order 1 copy of a title & we invoice all at the same
deeply discounted rates. We do offer extraordinary specials, often at or
below normal dealer cost and ONLY post those special offers on the MLA list
serv. 

Our public library clients mostly order multiple quantity titles and so we
have a bit of additional wiggle room in pricing there.

If university clients would group their needs into weekly or even monthly
orders they would do better than ordering individual titles as they often
do. We often run complete catalog label sales & libraries can save
significant dollars by going throuh the label's catalog & filling in their
needs as compared to ordering a title here & a title there.

Just my two cents.


Your search for sound & video ends here!
Jay Sonin, General Manager
Music Hunter Distributing Company
4880 North Citation Drive, Suite # 101
Delray Beach, Florida 33445-6552
musichunter...@gmail.com
561-450-7152 

-Original Message-
From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Shoaf,Judith P
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 2:29 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

Susan at Wabash College wrote:
Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with
publishers/producers/small distributors.  My answer is YES, and I did so in
yesterday's case .  I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered
pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges
and universities lumped together.  I mean, c'mon.  With our FTE of 865,
should  we *really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or
Rutgers?  Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or
Butler?  To me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as
"college or university."  So I do ask.  And many times the
producer/distributor understands and makes a reasonable alternative offer.
So I say it's worth asking.

Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses
surprise that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their
courses use and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by the
number of potential users, i.e. enrollment. 

Judy Shoaf




VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Shoaf,Judith P]

Susan at Wabash College wrote:
Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with 
publishers/producers/small distributors.  My answer is YES, and I did so in 
yesterday's case .  I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered 
pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges and 
universities lumped together.  I mean, c'mon.  With our FTE of 865, should  we 
*really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or Rutgers?  
Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or Butler?  To 
me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as "college or 
university."  So I do ask.  And many times the producer/distributor understands 
and makes a reasonable alternative offer.  So I say it's worth asking.

Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses surprise 
that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their courses use 
and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by the number of 
potential users, i.e. enrollment. 

Judy Shoaf




VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Susan Albrecht]

Richard wrote:
>>> A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts 
>>> and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books.  At the site to 
>>> purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears 
>>> (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and 
>>> school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend 
>>> nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not 
>>> granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but 
>>> these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned 
>>> that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future 
>>> productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent 
>>> documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare 
>>> tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm 
>>> probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts 
>>> are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort 
>>> of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of 
>>> acquisition situations? <<<


I had a discussion with a producer/distributor just yesterday about this.  For 
me, the problem is when folks *mix* the two setups of tiered pricing and rights 
"needs."  What this person told you concerning needing to pay for the right to 
use the film in the classroom is WRONG unless, as Jessica mentioned, it is 
specified in a contract that you agree to upon purchase.  If a website 
indicates flat-out tiered pricing based on the buyer's status, then yes, I feel 
compelled to purchase at the institutional price.  If, however, they tie price 
to rights needs and I know that all I need are standard library circulation and 
classroom use, I will maintain my right to purchase at the home-use price.  

Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with 
publishers/producers/small distributors.  My answer is YES, and I did so in 
yesterday's case .  I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered 
pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges and 
universities lumped together.  I mean, c'mon.  With our FTE of 865, should  we 
*really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or Rutgers?  
Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or Butler?  To 
me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as "college or 
university."  So I do ask.  And many times the producer/distributor understands 
and makes a reasonable alternative offer.  So I say it's worth asking.

Susan at Wabash College


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant (Jessica Rosner)

[nahum laufer]

Jessica 
A wonderful explanation.
As a distributer " Docs For Education" I want to add I don't want the retail
Market at $25 a DVD, the work to correspond , invoice & post etc. is the
same for a Library use at $175 or a private home use at $25, as the so
called "fair use" allows a legally bought DVD  to screen a film in a
classroom, I and other distributers have no reason "to shot my own leg" and
sell for "home use" 
Sometimes an individual person contacts me for specific title that he has a
personal interest in. This week a guy found a document that his father
served 1943 on the SS. Darien and asked me for the Film "the Darien
Dilemma", I asked and got $56 yet specified it is only for his "Home use"

If a university professor asks for a copy (very rare) I prefer to send him a
"Preview" stating it is for "personal use",( I hope that as s/he has not
paid for it they can't use it in classroom), asking them that the library
will contact me for a purchase.
Cheers

Nahum Laufer
http://onedayafterpeace.com/index.php
http://docsforeducation.com/ 
Sales
Docs for Education
Erez Laufer Films
Holland st 10 
Afulla 18371
Israel


Today's Topics:

   1. Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant (Richard Graham)
   2. Re: Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant (Jessica Rosner)
   3. Re: Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant (Norman Howden)
   4. Re: Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant (Dennis Doros)


--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:26:54 +
From: Richard Graham 
Subject: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
To: "cams...@lists.carleton.edu" 
Cc: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" 
Message-ID:



Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Fellow camslib/videolib folks, 

A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts
and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books.  At the site to
purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears
(http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and
school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend
nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not
granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but
these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that
some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions
and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent
documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare
tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm
probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts
are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these  sort
of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of
acquisition situations?

Cheers from Nebraska,

Richard

------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:41:56 -0400
From: Jessica Rosner 
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I have probably posted on this dozens of times. You do NOT need any extra
rights to show a legally acquired film in classroom BUT if it is only sold
from a single source ( Filmmaker or their rep) as opposed to retail ( Amazon
etc) than they can pretty much set any restrictions/pricing they want by
CONTRACT though it should be made clear that it is contract and not
copyright and the system should include one of those "I have read and agreed
to these conditions" type of sign off at point of sale.

A lot of distributors are between a rock and hard place. They have films
which have very limited retail value but they also want as many people as
possible to see the film so many offer copies to individuals. In the "old"
days they rarely did. This comes with the obvious pitfall that you are going
to piss off libraries who have to pay more. Sadly the vast majority of these
films simply could not be made and distributed if all copies were sold at
$25. I am justifying just explaining the reality. Personally I just think it
better not to offer copies to individuals even if that limits the markets.
I worked for several years on an excellent series of films on post genocide
Rwanda and there was never an option for individuals to purchase the films
at a retail price BUT when a special request was received, we would often
agree to it explaining that we would make the exception but the film could
not be used in a class or given to a library.

Some of you may remember many months ago when the "groupon" experiment was
tried. One company ( sorry guys I can't remember which one) offered to sell
some of their most expensive titl

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[handman]

Hi

Not many things are currently rousing me from my post-retirement lethargy,
but this issue does.

You're talking about buying a title from a distributor that has exclusive
distribution rights.  What's going on here--tiered pricing with specific
stipulations re use--is really matter of business contract, rather than
copyright.  That is to say, the vendor can call the shots: the user, in
purchasing a title, agrees to the terms and conditions of sale...

The situation that fries (fried?) my ass is when a distributor puts its
wares out into the broader home video market (e.g. amazon) and still tries
to enforce tiered pricing.  Basically, if a title turns up on amazon, I'm
gonna buy it at home video prices, even if the vendor is selling the title
at institutional prices via a distributor web site.  If you don't need
public performance rights (if all you're going to be using the title for
is classroom screening or individual viewing in the library), you should
always claim the face-to-face teaching exemption and go for the cheaper
version.

As for trying to persuade distributors to lower prices...I tried for 30
years and wasn't too successful, but then again I didn't try very hard,
knowing as I did how slim the profit margin is for indie distributors and
how generally tenuous that enterprise is...

Cheers!

Gary Handman








> Fellow camslib/videolib folks,
>
> A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts
> and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books.  At the site to
> purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears
> (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and
> school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend
> nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are
> not granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer,
> but these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague
> mentioned that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover
> future productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize
> independent documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use
> these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large
> costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what
> your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to
> make these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these
> sort of acquisition situations?
>
> Cheers from Nebraska,
>
> Richard
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>


Gary Handman
hand...@berkeley.edu

“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”
--Groucho Marx


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Anthony Anderson]

In my past life long before I ever got in the acquisition of DVDS, I 
worked here at USC as
a serials librarian.  With the pricing of academic journals, there 
always been a two tiered
system of pricing. There is one rate which an individual pays for a 
subscription, and what
a university library has to pay for an institutional rate. The 
difference between the two rates
can often be enormous. Take, for example, *The Journal of Applied 
Psychology*. An
individual pays $294, the annual institutional rate is $914. Trust me: 
no university library
(including USC) is happy to pay this, but we accept this as a given. 
With a few significant
exceptions, most academic journals could not continue in existence if 
this institutional rate
was not imposed. And so it with the institutional price that film 
distributors must charge
universities to purchase their documentary films. Do I wish that the 
institutional rate was
cheaper? Of course, I do! But I also realize that without the 
institutional rate, the documentary
distribution business in this country would pretty much cease to end.  
And for those who
may think that documentary distributors are "gouging" the academic 
market, trust me (again):

no one involved in documentary film distribution is rolling in big bucks.

Thank you,
Anthony

***
Anthony E. Anderson
Assistant Director, Doheny Memorial Library
University of Southern California
Los Angeles, CA 90089-0182
(213) 740-1190antho...@usc.edu
"Wind, regen, zon, of kou,
Albert Cuyp ik hou van jou."




On 9/20/2012 9:07 AM, Dennis Doros wrote:

Dear folks,

Just some information back. Even at $25 (and less), I sell about 50 to 
150 copies of any of my DVDs to the colleges, high schools and public 
libraries of America. There are very few institutions left who buy 
indie DVDs and BluRays because they /should/ be offering them to their 
students and public. Book publishers are obviously having the same 
exact problem. It's left to individuals to support my work.


I can't blame filmmakers or other distributors for charging more.

Dennis

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Norman Howden > wrote:


Richard,

I'll shoot a thought at that invitation.  If the independent video
authors and agents could get their works listed with jobbers,
particularly Baker & Taylor, Blackwell, and others that serve
higher ed, then they could lower prices some because they'd have a
bigger audience.  On the other hand, it would be difficult to do
away with tiered pricing altogether since it is a common business
practice.

Norm


--
Norman Howden
Assistant Dean, Educational Resources
El Centro College
214-860-2176 
nor...@dcccd.edu 
Please visit our website at: http://www.elcentrocollege.edu/library/

 "It may plausibly be urged that the shape of a culture - its
mores, evaluations, family organizations,  eating habits, living
patterns, pedagogical methods, institutions, forms of government,
and so forth -  arise from the economic necessities of its
technology."
   - Heinlein, 1940


>>> On 9/20/2012 at 10:26 AM, in message

, Richard Graham mailto:rgrah...@unl.edu>>
wrote:
> Fellow camslib/videolib folks,
>
> A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled
White Scripts
> and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books.  At the
site to
> purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears
> (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with
public and school
> libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to
spend nearly
> $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are
not granted
> rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer,
but these sort
> of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned
that some
> publishers do this because they need funds to cover future
productions and
> it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent
documentaries, but
> I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and
assume
> colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late
to the party
> on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone
try to work
> with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more
affordable?
> How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations?
>
> Cheers from Nebraska,
>
> Richard
>



VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as 

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Dennis Doros]

Dear folks,

Just some information back. Even at $25 (and less), I sell about 50 to 150
copies of any of my DVDs to the colleges, high schools and public libraries
of America. There are very few institutions left who buy indie DVDs and
BluRays because they *should* be offering them to their students and
public. Book publishers are obviously having the same exact problem. It's
left to individuals to support my work.

I can't blame filmmakers or other distributors for charging more.

Dennis

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Norman Howden  wrote:

> Richard,
>
> I'll shoot a thought at that invitation.  If the independent video authors
> and agents could get their works listed with jobbers, particularly Baker &
> Taylor, Blackwell, and others that serve higher ed, then they could lower
> prices some because they'd have a bigger audience.  On the other hand, it
> would be difficult to do away with tiered pricing altogether since it is a
> common business practice.
>
> Norm
>
>
> --
> Norman Howden
> Assistant Dean, Educational Resources
> El Centro College
> 214-860-2176
> nor...@dcccd.edu
> Please visit our website at: http://www.elcentrocollege.edu/library/
>
>  "It may plausibly be urged that the shape of a culture - its mores,
> evaluations, family organizations,  eating habits, living patterns,
> pedagogical methods, institutions, forms of government, and so forth -
>  arise from the economic necessities of its technology."
>- Heinlein, 1940
>
>
> >>> On 9/20/2012 at 10:26 AM, in message
>
>  om>, Richard Graham  wrote:
> > Fellow camslib/videolib folks,
> >
> > A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White
> Scripts
> > and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books.  At the site to
> > purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears
> > (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public
> and school
> > libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly
> > $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not
> granted
> > rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these
> sort
> > of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some
> > publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions
> and
> > it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent
> documentaries, but
> > I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume
> > colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the
> party
> > on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to
> work
> > with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more
> affordable?
> > How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations?
> >
> > Cheers from Nebraska,
> >
> > Richard
> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues
> > relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> > preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
> and
> > related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> effective
> > working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> > between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> > distributors.
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>



-- 
Best regards,
Dennis Doros
Milestone Film & Video/Milliarium Zero
PO Box 128 / Harrington Park, NJ 07640
Phone: 201-767-3117 / Fax: 201-767-3035 / Email: milefi...@gmail.com
Visit our main website!  www.milestonefilms.com
Visit our new websites!  www.shirleyclarkefilms.com, www.comebackafrica.com
  www.ontheboweryfilm.com

Support "Milestone Film" on
Facebook
 and Twitter !
See the website: Association of Moving Image
Archivists and
like them on 
Facebook

AMIA 2012 Conference, Seattle, WA, December 4-7!
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video produc

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Norman Howden]

Richard,

I'll shoot a thought at that invitation.  If the independent video authors and 
agents could get their works listed with jobbers, particularly Baker & Taylor, 
Blackwell, and others that serve higher ed, then they could lower prices some 
because they'd have a bigger audience.  On the other hand, it would be 
difficult to do away with tiered pricing altogether since it is a common 
business practice.

Norm


-- 
Norman Howden
Assistant Dean, Educational Resources
El Centro College
214-860-2176
nor...@dcccd.edu
Please visit our website at: http://www.elcentrocollege.edu/library/
  
 "It may plausibly be urged that the shape of a culture - its mores, 
evaluations, family organizations,  eating habits, living patterns, pedagogical 
methods, institutions, forms of government, and so forth -  arise from the 
economic necessities of its technology."
   - Heinlein, 1940


>>> On 9/20/2012 at 10:26 AM, in message
, Richard Graham  wrote:
> Fellow camslib/videolib folks, 
> 
> A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts 
> and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books.  At the site to 
> purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears 
> (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and 
> school 
> libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly 
> $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted 
> rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort 
> of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some 
> publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions and 
> it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but 
> I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume 
> colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party 
> on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work 
> with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more affordable? 
> How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations?
> 
> Cheers from Nebraska,
> 
> Richard
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
> distributors.


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant

[Jessica Rosner]

I have probably posted on this dozens of times. You do NOT need any extra
rights to show a legally acquired film in classroom BUT if it is only sold
from a single source ( Filmmaker or their rep) as opposed to retail (
Amazon etc) than they can pretty much set any restrictions/pricing they
want by CONTRACT though it should be made clear that it is contract and not
copyright and the system should include one of those "I have read and
agreed to these conditions" type of sign off at point of sale.

A lot of distributors are between a rock and hard place. They have films
which have very limited retail value but they
also want as many people as possible to see the film so many offer copies
to individuals. In the "old" days they rarely did. This comes with the
obvious pitfall that you are going to piss off libraries who have to pay
more. Sadly the vast majority of these films simply could not be made and
distributed if all copies were sold at $25. I am justifying just explaining
the reality. Personally I just think it better not to offer copies to
individuals even if that limits the markets.
I worked for several years on an excellent series of films on post genocide
Rwanda and there was never an option for individuals to purchase the films
at a retail price BUT when a special request was received, we would often
agree to it explaining that we would make the exception but the film could
not be used in a class or given to a library.

Some of you may remember many months ago when the "groupon" experiment was
tried. One company ( sorry guys I can't remember which one) offered to sell
some of their most expensive titles at a very low price PROVIDED a minimum
of institutions bought them in specific time frame. They did not even come
close. I think I can speak for all distributors & filmmakers  that they
would MUCH rather sell 1,000 copies at $25 than 100 copies at $250 even
with the added hastle but alas most of the films we work with won't sell
1,000 copies.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Richard Graham  wrote:

> Fellow camslib/videolib folks,
>
> A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts
> and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books.  At the site to
> purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears (
> http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and
> school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend
> nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not
> granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but
> these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned
> that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future
> productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent
> documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare
> tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm
> probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts
> are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort
> of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of
> acquisition situations?
>
> Cheers from Nebraska,
>
> Richard
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.