Re: [Vo]:Defkalion
On 01/28/2011 08:01 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 4:27 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Could Rossi be from the future? No, David Lynch. All very nice(in a sense) except that the gentleman in the picture is not David Lynch, but Tim Robbins in the poster of a David Lynch's movie called Eraserhead. See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Eraserhead.jpg http://hwcdn.themoviedb.org/backdrops/5f1/4bc90efd017a3c57fe0055f1/eraserhead-original.jpg Robbins there has a certain, surely intentional, Lynchesque air, no doubt about it. Nice movie, by the way(in a sense, too). Regards, Mauro
RE: [Vo]:A.Rossi interview from 22passi blog - english translation
Terry sez: Meanwhile, I suspect Dr. Mill's is discretely sharpening his own fangs. Maybe. But, I fear for Randell's mental health when he realizes what he missed by denial. I would speculate that if Mills Co. are lucky enough to deliver their CIHT prototype later in 2011, and if it turns out that their own wunder device does indeed generate electricity directly from proprietary BLP procedures - all will be forgiven. Mill's will certainly be able to afford the best therapy that money can buy. There... there... Randy. We all make mistakes every now and then. Why should you be any different. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:A.Rossi interview from 22passi blog - english translation
At 01:00 AM 1/29/2011, Horace Heffner wrote: On Jan 28, 2011, at 5:08 PM, SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote: [snip] ROSSI. Exactly. In fact, mine is not cold fusion, but weak energy nuclear reactions. Fleischmann and Pons did heavy water electrolysis with a palladium cathode and platinum anode. I don't do electrolysis, I don't use either platinum or palladium and I use temperatures that manage to melt nickel. There has been much nonsense about fusion. Fusion is a term that can refer to mechanism, but not necessarily to any specific mechanism. However, much of the 1989 debacle resulted from an assumption that unknown nuclear reaction must be fusion, and specifically d-d fusion, a narrowing to a (partial description) of a specific pathway. The triple miracle required for the P-F reaction to be happening was all about d-d fusion, and the voices for alternate pathways were few at first. The argument that heat/helium was an astonishing finding of Miles, supposedly not likely to be reproduced, was (Huizenga) that there were no gamma rays, and that, obviously, proceeded from an assumption that a probably impossible reaction would produce gamma rays. Instead of making the obvious conclusion, that the reaction wasn't D+D-He-4, but was ... an unknown nuclear reaction, Huizenga barely budged. But he sure noticed Miles! If we have a black box, (maybe covered with aluminum foil!), and deuterium goes in and helium comes out, with the thermodynamically required energy being released, what do we call what happens in the box? I say it's obvious, we call it fusion. And Storms did that under peer review, and it's foolish to argue that if, say, neutrons are formed from the interaction of heavy electrons with deuterium, that then, through some pathway, produce helium, that this is not fusion. That's confusing mechanism with result, and fusion, intrinsically, is the formation of higher weight elements from lower weight ones, regardless of mechanism. Without information about what the ingredients and process is with Rossi, my position is that scientists in the field should publicly ignore Rossi, or comment neutrally, i.e., Given that the process is a secret and has not been revealed, we cannot comment on this. And I'd have suggested that reputable scientists should have avoided participating in the demonstration. To participate and make a report without complete information is to promote the work of Rossi, to assist Rossi in obtaining funding that might be money tossed down a hole. Rossi has every right to keep details secret, but not to hitch a ride on the reputation of cold fusion researchers. If he's got something real, if his claims are true, he will have no trouble obtaining funding. Those who did, nevertheless, attend the demonstration should very clearly point out what they were *not* allowed to see or observe. Many aspects of the Rossi history are troubling, and these should not be swept under the carpet. None of this means that Rossi is a fraud, only that many aspects of this resemble prior attempts at fraud, or, alternatively, delusion. Not fusion is an attempt to sidestep the reputation of cold fusion. It worked for Widom-Larsen-Krivit, but only transiently. We are better off wearing the badge of Cold Fusion proudly. Shall we print some bumper stickers, It's Fusion, Get Over It? It's been obvious for a long time that more than one LENR exists. The P-F reaction seems to be almost entirely one reaction, with rare branches or secondary reactions. But there are others, quite likely. Do I disagree with Dr. Storms on this? Maybe, when we know the mechanism, we will find that there is a single mechanism or class of mechanisms that can come up with differing results when the conditions are different. Personally, though, I'm not willing to hitch my star to any theory, though I do flog Takahashi's TSC theory a bit, merely because it's a usage of classical quantum field theory, it seems, to predict fusion from a physical condition that seems like it *might* be in range of possibility. Storms is correct to point out that the TS condition requires energy to form, my view is that the energy *might* be within what's available at low incidence from the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution, and I have hereby exhausted my ability to string together plausible-sounding word salad. Please, is there a physicist in the house? (Yes, I know that there are competent physicists, including specialists in hot fusion, who have been working on cold fusion from the beginning, but this may be one of the toughest theoretical problems physicists have faced for a century, and it's been a shame that, instead of recognizing the problem and starting to work on it, the physics community, overall, turned its back. Whoever comes up with a mechanism that is then proven by the normal process could possibly share in a Nobel Prize, that's my opinion. I already think Pons and Fleischmann
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 7:26 AM, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar wrote: All very nice(in a sense) except that the gentleman in the picture is not David Lynch, Thanks, Mauro; but, when Jones said Rossi was from the future, I meant he was from a David Lynch movie, Eraserhead. T
[Vo]:The Big Picture
Most of us here on the forum agree that if the Rossi device is not faked, it is the most important energy invention since the Manhattan project. This is what Mills had claimed for his work about 6 months ago, but all of a sudden BLP is 'eating dust' and stalled at the gate in the metaphorical race. and it could be a race for the ages, with nothing less than totally world energy dominance as the grand prize. There are still doubts of course, and an elaborate delusion is not completely ruled out. For the sake of argument, let's agree that the device has not been faked, that Rossi does not understand its operation, that it is New Physics and that it might not be nuclear at all (in the sense that the energy gain derives from the zero point field for the most part). Problem is - big-fizzix in the USA still has their collective noses in the air, and that stance is not likely to change until they see the megawatt plant in operation, which could be a year down the road. The same is generally true in Europe about the mainstream physics establishment - but as a whole, we must ask: are the top thinkers there more cognizant of the international possibilities than are we, and are they able to take the bold and drastic step to guarantee the lead? The have far more to gain than us, and fewer basic freedoms - and since they have so little fossil fuel resources, the bold and drastic move is not ruled out. If there is one hope for everyone in all of this, for a quicker understanding of what is going on - it is the proximity to CERN to Bologna, which if I am not mistaken could be a one day drive for a truck carrying the device. Rossi is not interested, now, but he is probably a reasonable man who could be convinced otherwise, with the proper inducements. Think about this in terms of the World economic scenario - and especially the Euro, and the competition for energy dominance in the 21st Century. If you are convinced that the device must be well-understood before it can be really exploited on a grand scale, and you want to see Europe and Italy prosper to the maximum extent, then you do what you have to do. If you must pay him one billion Euros up front, or even 100 billion, it is still a bargain. There are, of course, other less costly ways, if he resists. A few of the deep thinkers and planners in Europe will possibly come to this same conclusion soon, if they have not already - and agree that this is a unique opportunity to leap-frog the USA and China and the rest of Asia - into world dominance. It is possibly a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, even once-in-a-millennium. Think about it. It would not surprise me to see this project sequestered, and with perhaps with Rossi's full cooperation. He would be a fool to not to go along with such a plan. Jones
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
Most of us here on the forum agree that if the Rossi device is not faked, it is the most important energy invention since the Manhattan project. This is what Mills had claimed for his work about 6 months ago, but all of a sudden BLP is 'eating dust' and stalled at the gate in the metaphorical race. and it could be a race for the ages, with nothing less than totally world energy dominance as the grand prize. I don't follow the talk about energy dominance. How to make the device is pretty well known, except for the catalyst. Once Rossi comes across with a convincing demo or the mw power plant, or even does a long run of the 12kw device, it won't be long before people figure out what the catalyst is and build the devices for themselves. To whatever degree it is necessary for a theoretical understanding before the device can be fully exploited, once the yellow guys and the other white guys get interested (and the brown people in India are no slouches these days either), they can figure it out just as well as the guys at Cern. Patents will be a joke. No country is going to sit around waiting for Rossi's permission. Countries will break every agreement they have in regard to patents rather than not build the device.
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Think about it. It would not surprise me to see this project sequestered, and with perhaps with Rossi’s full cooperation. He would be a fool to not to go along with such a plan. I think it has too great a military value to be hidden. I know the gentleman who started Agco Corp., a multi-billion dollar agricultural equipment company. I asked him about the 100 mile carburetor. He was once director of engineering for the International (Nash) truck division and said he actually searched for such products. He said they all stemmed from rumors and he never found evidence any of them were true. I believe him. I have also spoken with a former head of Bell Labs and queried him about hidden energy devices. He admitted that some technology was hidden for national security reasons; but, he believed we would never hide a energy device. His point was that there is no big oil conspiracy because the oil companies are such great competitors that they would all want the technology to make money. Of course, these men could be telling the tale they are instructed to tell. :-) T
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
Good analysis, Jones however I would add this: - the cell shows that 2 problems are solved- i*ntensity* and * reproducibility*however what remains is *scale up*. A la prima vista it seems that the 1 MW demo will be an assembly of say, 125 cells working together. I hope not...I am an engineer and I don't like the idea If you look carefully to Mills's papers he was more focused on scale-up Let's wait the two macro demonstrations - Rossi's and BLP's they will be in the same time, almost. Interesting times.. Peter On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 6:28 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Most of us here on the forum agree that if the Rossi device is not faked, it is the most important energy invention since the Manhattan project. This is what Mills had claimed for his work about 6 months ago, but all of a sudden BLP is ‘eating dust’ and stalled at the gate in the metaphorical race… and it could be a race for the ages, with nothing less than totally world energy dominance as the grand prize. There are still doubts of course, and an elaborate delusion is not completely ruled out. For the sake of argument, let’s agree that the device has not been faked, that Rossi does not understand its operation, that it is “New Physics” and that it might not be nuclear at all (in the sense that the energy gain derives from the zero point field for the most part). Problem is – big-fizzix in the USA still has their collective noses in the air, and that stance is not likely to change until they see the megawatt plant in operation, which could be a year down the road. The same is generally true in Europe about the mainstream physics establishment - but as a whole, we must ask: are the top thinkers there more cognizant of the international possibilities than are we, and are they able to take the bold and drastic step to guarantee the lead? The have far more to gain than us, and fewer basic freedoms – and since they have so little fossil fuel resources, the bold and drastic move is not ruled out. If there is one hope for everyone in all of this, for a quicker understanding of what is going on - it is the proximity to CERN to Bologna, which if I am not mistaken could be a one day drive for a truck carrying the device. Rossi is not interested, now, but he is probably a reasonable man who could be convinced otherwise, with the proper inducements. Think about this in terms of the World economic scenario – and especially the Euro, and the competition for energy dominance in the 21st Century. If you are convinced that the device must be well-understood before it can be really exploited on a grand scale, and you want to see Europe and Italy prosper to the maximum extent, then you do what you have to do. If you must pay him one billion Euros up front, or even 100 billion, it is still a bargain. There are, of course, other less costly ways, if he resists. A few of the deep thinkers and planners in Europe will possibly come to this same conclusion soon, if they have not already – and agree that this is a unique opportunity to leap-frog the USA and China and the rest of Asia -into world dominance.It is possibly a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, even once-in-a-millennium. Think about it. It would not surprise me to see this project sequestered, and with perhaps with Rossi’s full cooperation. He would be a fool to not to go along with such a plan. Jones
RE: [Vo]:The Big Picture
From Peter: ... If you look carefully to Mills's papers he was more focused on scale-up. Let's wait the two macro demonstrations - Rossi's and BLP's they will be in the same time, almost. Interesting times.. Can anyone spell: p-a-t-e-n-t w-a-r? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
peatbog peat...@teksavvy.com wrote: Once Rossi comes across with a convincing demo or the mw power plant, or even does a long run of the 12kw device, it won't be long before people figure out what the catalyst is and build the devices for themselves. Patents will be a joke. No country is going to sit around waiting for Rossi's permission. Countries will break every agreement they have in regard to patents rather than not build the device. I agree emphatically with both points. On the blog, the Defkalion representative wrote: For the time being, it is confirmed that Defkalion will manufacture units up to 20KW for different non-military applications within 2011, exclusively. That's naive. It is also a violation of trade laws. You cannot tell your customer how they can and cannot use a product, except in a very limited way. For example, software manufacturers have you sign an agreement not to reverse engineer the product. I doubt that would stand up on court. As long as the customer uses it for a legal purpose, the vendor cannot discriminate or refuse to sell. If the use of the product is illegal, that is a problem for law enforcement agents. (If you knowingly sell something for illegal purposes you may be culpable.) Frankly the entire business plan strikes me as naive, totally inadequate to the task, and one that would leave 99% of potential profit on the table for others to grab. If this thing is going to solve the energy crisis, or even have a measurable impact on energy consumption, one small company mass producing units at the end of 2011 will not cut the mustard. The scale of that effort is far too small. It is as if the Wright brothers envisioned themselves as exclusive manufacturers of airplanes in 1912. In fact, there were a half-million people making airplanes that year, and without that kind of effort aviation would not have become an industry. We will need a half-million or maybe 10 million people working on Rossi device RD if they are going to succeed at all. I mean people in many industries such as automobiles, power generators, space heaters, process heating, aerospace and so on. These people all have specialized knowledge that Rossi and Defkalion do not have. There is no way Defkalion could engineer a system for anything other than a few basic purposes. They could not expand fast enough or high the tens of thousands of product engineers who will be needed. Thousands of variations and specialized uses must be engineered. Also, as I said, every single one will have to pass careful review by the insurance industry (Underwriter's Laboratory), regulators and others. This alone will cost billions of dollars, and Defkalion cannot begin to deal with it. Underwriter's Laboratory (U.L.) has no legal standing, but de facto you cannot sell a single product in the U.S. without extensive testing and approval by them. No vendor will sell it, and no professional engineer or installers will touch it -- nor should they, in my opinion. No one should risk his life to protect a trade secret! U.L. demands blueprints and the exact composition of your product, and of every component in it, down to the faceplate screws. I have seen their application forms. They want to know more than Patent Office demands. There can be no secrecy in industrial products. There has not been any secrecy since the 19th century. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:The Big Picture
Yes, Peter there is the looming issue of scale-up. You say: it seems that the 1 MW demo will be an assembly of say, 125 cells working together. I hope not...I am an engineer and I don't like the idea. Yes, that was my initial reaction as well. However, if this device is basically driven by a QM reaction, then scale-up may not work well. I think that is indeed the case. QM devices often have an inverted economy of scale, especially those dependent on tunneling. They make up for that limitation by maximizing the number of small units per devise - e.g. the FET. However, I am now thinking that a new manufacturing paradigm could be called for, and that this turns out to be an easily a workable situation with mass production and quick swap-outs somewhat like the auto SLA battery which seldom lasts for over 1000 hours of continuous use. That is why I had previously mentioned the auto assembly line. If a 10kW device does turn out to be a good choice, and if it has a useful lifetime of over 1000 hours (hopefully more), then that is similar to what we find in many autos - where at 60,000 miles major parts must be replaced. In mass production, we find that a 2000 kg luxury car is sold to the dealer for less than $20 US per kg of mass. The Rossi device might be worth more than that figure in per-kg cost - but only weigh 100 kg. The average citizen will spend more that $2000 per year on home and auto energy and could afford that much to pay for the periodic swapping of the nickel core. This could work out well for all concerned, even without scale up over the 10kW size. However, we are no longer talking about cheap energy - merely competitive energy at about ten cents per kWhr, including taxes and fees. BUT POLLUTION FREE (except for nickel mining) and with little greenhouse or other toxins. IOW - I agree that it is desirable to go higher in scale up if that is possible, but even if not possible - then the device is easily workable at exactly the form factor which has been demonstrated ~10kW. Jones
[Vo]:How to Really Give Power to the People!
HOW TO REALLY GIVE POWER TO THE PEOPLE Extra Spending Power Would Be Quickly Lost To collect royalties, one only has to make the royalties cheaper to pay than the legal fees and the disruption that litigation brings. Besides, Governements will not miss such a great opportunity to tax such inventions, seeing that there is so much Loose Money Laying Around once we stop paying OPEC et al; so there is little doubt that royalties will be seen as a way to protect their taxable interest, since people would oppose paying thousands of percent taxes on the devices they buy---even though it is really the same thing; (in the vein of I can't afford to have you raise my Landlord's taxes!) In other words they will tax the royalties so you won't Feel like you are being taxed. Really, especially in Added Value Tax Countries, the overwhelming portion of the price you pay for virtually everything s to pay the taxes for all the previous owners of all the parts of the goods or services. Plus, at some point, the politicians are going to abandon the dying Energy Industries; they will be tripping over one-another to cut lucrative deals with the New Energy Establishment. Besides, free energy wouldn't be free, just from the standpoint that, extra money being diverted from energy into the otherwise same economy will not increase goods or services nor will it give you more spending power since the prices of everything else will inflate. Your increased spending power will simply vanish into the ravenous, slobbering, gaping, burping mouth of the Beast we call Inflation. HOW TO REALLY GIVE POWER TO THE PEOPLE http://z-pec.yolasite.com/resources/1-Populistocracy.pdf http://z-pec.yolasite.com/resources/2CritSafeguards.pdf http://z-pec.yolasite.com/resources/4Misc.pdf Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:41:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com peatbog peat...@teksavvy.com wrote: Once Rossi comes across with a convincing demo or the mw power plant, or even does a long run of the 12kw device, it won't be long before people figure out what the catalyst is and build the devices for themselves. Patents will be a joke. No country is going to sit around waiting for Rossi's permission. Countries will break every agreement they have in regard to patents rather than not build the device. I agree emphatically with both points. On the blog, the Defkalion representative wrote: For the time being, it is confirmed that Defkalion will manufacture units up to 20KW for different non-military applications within 2011, exclusively. That's naive. It is also a violation of trade laws. You cannot tell your customer how they can and cannot use a product, except in a very limited way. For example, software manufacturers have you sign an agreement not to reverse engineer the product. I doubt that would stand up on court. As long as the customer uses it for a legal purpose, the vendor cannot discriminate or refuse to sell. If the use of the product is illegal, that is a problem for law enforcement agents. (If you knowingly sell something for illegal purposes you may be culpable.) Frankly the entire business plan strikes me as naive, totally inadequate to the task, and one that would leave 99% of potential profit on the table for others to grab. If this thing is going to solve the energy crisis, or even have a measurable impact on energy consumption, one small company mass producing units at the end of 2011 will not cut the mustard. The scale of that effort is far too small. It is as if the Wright brothers envisioned themselves as exclusive manufacturers of airplanes in 1912. In fact, there were a half-million people making airplanes that year, and without that kind of effort aviation would not have become an industry. We will need a half-million or maybe 10 million people working on Rossi device RD if they are going to succeed at all. I mean people in many industries such as automobiles, power generators, space heaters, process heating, aerospace and so on. These people all have specialized knowledge that Rossi and Defkalion do not have. There is no way Defkalion could engineer a system for anything other than a few basic purposes. They could not expand fast enough or high the tens of thousands of product engineers who will be needed. Thousands of variations and specialized uses must be engineered. Also, as I said, every single one will have to pass careful review by the insurance industry (Underwriter's Laboratory), regulators and others. This alone will cost billions of dollars, and Defkalion cannot begin to deal with it. Underwriter's Laboratory (U.L.) has no legal standing, but de facto you cannot sell a single product in the U.S. without extensive testing and approval by them. No vendor will sell it, and no professional engineer or installers will touch it -- nor should they, in my opinion. No one should risk his life to
[Vo]:How to Kill Special-Interest Politics
Populistocracy: The Long-Awaited Death of Special-Interest Politics!!! What could be more fair than allowing anyone who wants to hold public office to participate in a random drawing??? This is authentic Democracy! This is how they chose their Assembly Members in Ancient Athens! This presents the very real possibility of stripping special interests of their ability to buy undue influence in the form of campaign donations. (Obviously, Presidents and State Governors could not be selected at random.) Could we do any worse than the present system??? (If this proposal seems impossible to accomplish, (re)read Iconoclast Community: We can do this!!! http://z-pec.yolasite.com/resources/1-Populistocracy.pdf http://z-pec.yolasite.com/resources/2CritSafeguards.pdf http://z-pec.yolasite.com/resources/4Misc.pdf This is what I want to spend my Z-PEC royalties on. Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:41:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com peatbog peat...@teksavvy.com wrote: Once Rossi comes across with a convincing demo or the mw power plant, or even does a long run of the 12kw device, it won't be long before people figure out what the catalyst is and build the devices for themselves. Patents will be a joke. No country is going to sit around waiting for Rossi's permission. Countries will break every agreement they have in regard to patents rather than not build the device. I agree emphatically with both points. On the blog, the Defkalion representative wrote: For the time being, it is confirmed that Defkalion will manufacture units up to 20KW for different non-military applications within 2011, exclusively. That's naive. It is also a violation of trade laws. You cannot tell your customer how they can and cannot use a product, except in a very limited way. For example, software manufacturers have you sign an agreement not to reverse engineer the product. I doubt that would stand up on court. As long as the customer uses it for a legal purpose, the vendor cannot discriminate or refuse to sell. If the use of the product is illegal, that is a problem for law enforcement agents. (If you knowingly sell something for illegal purposes you may be culpable.) Frankly the entire business plan strikes me as naive, totally inadequate to the task, and one that would leave 99% of potential profit on the table for others to grab. If this thing is going to solve the energy crisis, or even have a measurable impact on energy consumption, one small company mass producing units at the end of 2011 will not cut the mustard. The scale of that effort is far too small. It is as if the Wright brothers envisioned themselves as exclusive manufacturers of airplanes in 1912. In fact, there were a half-million people making airplanes that year, and without that kind of effort aviation would not have become an industry. We will need a half-million or maybe 10 million people working on Rossi device RD if they are going to succeed at all. I mean people in many industries such as automobiles, power generators, space heaters, process heating, aerospace and so on. These people all have specialized knowledge that Rossi and Defkalion do not have. There is no way Defkalion could engineer a system for anything other than a few basic purposes. They could not expand fast enough or high the tens of thousands of product engineers who will be needed. Thousands of variations and specialized uses must be engineered. Also, as I said, every single one will have to pass careful review by the insurance industry (Underwriter's Laboratory), regulators and others. This alone will cost billions of dollars, and Defkalion cannot begin to deal with it. Underwriter's Laboratory (U.L.) has no legal standing, but de facto you cannot sell a single product in the U.S. without extensive testing and approval by them. No vendor will sell it, and no professional engineer or installers will touch it -- nor should they, in my opinion. No one should risk his life to protect a trade secret! U.L. demands blueprints and the exact composition of your product, and of every component in it, down to the faceplate screws. I have seen their application forms. They want to know more than Patent Office demands. There can be no secrecy in industrial products. There has not been any secrecy since the 19th century. - Jed
[Vo]:Rossi rejects suggestion that other labs have demo units
From the blog: Jed Rothwell January 29th, 2011 at 1:01 PM I am delighted to hear you are continuing your collaboration with U. Bologna. I wish you would provide two other demonstration units, to be tested in Cambridge U. in the U.K. and in the U.S. I am sure we can arrange for tests at a leading U.S. laboratory. Dear Dr Rothwell: We will continue the reseach with the University of Bologna to deepen the knowledge under a theoretical point of view. As for the efficiency demonstration, we will make no more of them until we will have in operation, by October , our first p[lant of 1 MW of power. The lab phase is over, now we go for the real market. Warmest Regards, Andrea Rossi
Re: [Vo]:Rossi rejects suggestion that other labs have demo units
more red flags...at first Rossi said the 1MW unit would ready in 2-3 months now it won't be ready until october. we also know nothing about this Defkalion company. harry --- On Sat, 1/29/11, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Subject: [Vo]:Rossi rejects suggestion that other labs have demo units To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Received: Saturday, January 29, 2011, 3:17 PM From the blog: Jed Rothwell January 29th, 2011 at 1:01 PM I am delighted to hear you are continuing your collaboration with U. Bologna. I wish you would provide two other demonstration units, to be tested in Cambridge U. in the U.K. and in the U.S. I am sure we can arrange for tests at a leading U.S. laboratory. Dear Dr Rothwell: We will continue the reseach with the University of Bologna to deepen the knowledge under a theoretical point of view. As for the efficiency demonstration, we will make no more of them until we will have in operation, by October , our first p[lant of 1 MW of power. The lab phase is over, now we go for the real market. Warmest Regards, Andrea Rossi
Re: [Vo]:How to Really Give Power to the People!
In reply to Wm. Scott Smith's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2011 11:16:36 -0800: Hi, [snip] In other words they will tax the royalties so you won't Feel like you are being taxed. Really, especially in Added Value Tax Countries, the overwhelming portion of the price you pay for virtually everything s to pay the taxes for all the previous owners of all the parts of the goods or services. I live in one of those countries, and it doesn't work quite like that. The actual tax is 10% of the purchase price, which is the accumulation of 10% charged at each sub-level of production. At each level each producer gets to deduct the 10% they paid on their purchases, and they charge the next in line 10% of the sale price, so effectively 10% of all the differences is passed along to the ultimate buyer (i.e. the consumer), who ends up paying 10% on the final sale price. IOW the VAT is 10%, not the overwhelming portion. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
[Vo]:THANKS FOR CLARIFICATION ON VAT!
THANKS FOR CLARIFICATION ON VAT! Do VAT countries also have Income Taxes. If so, this tax is also reflected in the prices. rom: mix...@bigpond.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:How to Really Give Power to the People! Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 08:20:58 +1100 In reply to Wm. Scott Smith's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2011 11:16:36 -0800: Hi, [snip] In other words they will tax the royalties so you won't Feel like you are being taxed. Really, especially in Added Value Tax Countries, the overwhelming portion of the price you pay for virtually everything s to pay the taxes for all the previous owners of all the parts of the goods or services. I live in one of those countries, and it doesn't work quite like that. The actual tax is 10% of the purchase price, which is the accumulation of 10% charged at each sub-level of production. At each level each producer gets to deduct the 10% they paid on their purchases, and they charge the next in line 10% of the sale price, so effectively 10% of all the differences is passed along to the ultimate buyer (i.e. the consumer), who ends up paying 10% on the final sale price. IOW the VAT is 10%, not the overwhelming portion. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:How to Really Give Power to the People!
In reply to Wm. Scott Smith's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2011 11:16:36 -0800: Hi, [snip] Besides, free energy wouldn't be free, just from the standpoint that, extra money being diverted from energy into the otherwise same economy will not increase goods or services nor will it give you more spending power since the prices of everything else will inflate. Your increased spending power will simply vanish into the ravenous, slobbering, gaping, burping mouth of the Beast we call Inflation. You couldn't be more wrong. *Real* wealth is built upon two pillars:- energy and information/knowledge. Nearly free energy will have a tremendous impact on the *real* wealth of the whole planet. We can only hope that that impact lifts everyone far enough out of poverty to ensure a global reduction in the birth rate. (The population is actually falling in some Western countries, and rises most rapidly in the poorest countries). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:04:26 -0500: Hi, [snip] I think it has too great a military value to be hidden. [snip] The military value is a pittance compared to the positive impact it could have on society as a whole. Besides, if you reduce population pressure (through wealth increase), then the pressure for war declines too, making the military less necessary. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
In reply to Peter Gluck's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2011 19:52:33 +0200: Hi, [snip] Good analysis, Jones however I would add this: - the cell shows that 2 problems are solved- i*ntensity* and * reproducibility*however what remains is *scale up*. A la prima vista it seems that the 1 MW demo will be an assembly of say, 125 cells working together. I hope not...I am an engineer and I don't like the idea Well consider this, a series-parallel arrangement has advantages. If one of the parallel lines has a failure, then you just have somewhat reduced power output while it gets repaired. If you have a failure in a large single unit then you lose power completely while it gets repaired. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:THANKS FOR CLARIFICATION ON VAT!
In reply to Wm. Scott Smith's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:25:41 -0800: Hi, [snip] THANKS FOR CLARIFICATION ON VAT! Do VAT countries also have Income Taxes. If so, this tax is also reflected in the prices. Yes, there are also income taxes, both individual and company. In our country (and I think in most others) the company tax rate is fixed, while the individual tax rate varies with income. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:A.Rossi interview from 22passi blog - english translation
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 28 Jan 2011 19:47:37 -0800: Hi, [snip] What if it gets down to needing a completely new heat reactor every six months? That could happen. I think refurbishment every 6 months is more likely. That would probably entail swapping out the Ni. However the Ni that is removed is not lost. It can be reprocessed and end up in new reactors, so overall Ni consumption would depend on the amount that is actually converted into Cu, and that would be small. 8% of current world production would meet all our energy needs, even if the reaction only yielded 6 MeV. Note also that the Rossi patent includes copper as a potential fuel, which makes me wonder why the reaction should stop there and not proceed to higher elements, in which case we might expect many 10's of MeV per original nickel atom. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:A.Rossi interview from 22passi blog - english translation
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: And I'd have suggested that reputable scientists should have avoided participating in the demonstration. To participate and make a report without complete information is to promote the work of Rossi, to assist Rossi in obtaining funding that might be money tossed down a hole. Rossi has every right to keep details secret, but not to hitch a ride on the reputation of cold fusion researchers. If he's got something real, if his claims are true, he will have no trouble obtaining funding. I disagree. I think Rossi has been revealing as much as he can, given his patent situation. He has been cooperative with most scientists, although he got into a snit with Celani. On his blog he praised the paper by Villa, even though that paper was cool toward Rossi and raised many questions about the work. He has decided to continue the particle detection work at U. Bologna. He told me: We will continue the reseach with the University of Bologna to deepen the knowledge under a theoretical point of view. I think he has been more open than most cold fusion researchers, and perhaps more than Mills, although I do not know much about Mills. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2011 08:28:55 -0800: Hi, [snip] Think about it. It would not surprise me to see this project sequestered, and with perhaps with Rossi's full cooperation. He would be a fool to not to go along with such a plan. ...which of course doesn't necessarily mean that this would be in the best interest of the human race. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Well consider this, a series-parallel arrangement has advantages. If one of the parallel lines has a failure, then you just have somewhat reduced power output while it gets repaired. If you have a failure in a large single unit then you lose power completely while it gets repaired. This is the kind of engineering consideration that will have to be worked out by experts in heat engineering, plumbing, safety, product design and many other conventional fields. My guess is that Rossi is not qualified to design a safe and effective solution. I doubt he is licensed to do that either. Perhaps he hired an expert, or a consulting engineering firm. But this is the kind of thing that should be worked out by many different experts and discussed in open technical forums and formal conferences convened by agencies such as the DoE and NIST. All that should happen before anyone scales up to 1 MW. This is not the 19th century when people could blithely build giant machines with no proof they would work, and not kill people. Some essential questions should be addressed: Does Rossi really have complete control over the reaction? I would not take his word for this. I would have him get together with experts to write a manual describing the methods of control, and then I would have hundreds of engineers run the machine through thousands of hours -- and eventually millions of hours -- of real operation, including operation at extreme temperatures and other conditions to ENSURE that they really can control it. When an auto manufacturer says the car meets crash-worthy standards, we do not take their word for it. We smash up millions of dollars worth of brand-new automobiles in carefully controlled testbed conditions. It costs millions, but it saves tens of thousands of lives, which even measured by money alone are worth more than the cost of the tests. Does the thing produce dangerous radiation in any operating mode, including extreme modes? Again, the only way to be sure is to subject it to tests. Is the thing a bio-hazard for some unknown reason? Biology is far more complicated than any other science, and it is more or less 99.99% unknown. The only way to prove the thing is safe is to expose lab rats and other species to the machine for months at a time. If they do not do this, I would not think of going into the room with a working machine. In my opinion, any engineer, installer or scientist who would risk scaling this up given our present state of ignorance is crazy, and criminally irresponsible. This is an unknown *nuclear reaction* for crying out loud! A NUCLEAR REACTION. It is not a Gumby toy or potato battery. I have seen many cold fusion labs, and I have often noted a cavalier attitude toward nuclear safety, industrial standards and common sense. It bothers me a great deal. A serious accident would not only hurt innocent people, it might set back the development of cold fusion for years. It might even end the development of cold fusion, given the irrational fear that people have of novelty and the unknown. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion
On 01/29/2011 12:57 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 7:26 AM, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar wrote: All very nice(in a sense) except that the gentleman in the picture is not David Lynch, Thanks, Mauro; but, when Jones said Rossi was from the future, I meant he was from a David Lynch movie, Eraserhead. It's funny because I was so convinced the actor was Tim Robbins that didn't check it, when in reality it's Jack Nance. The similitude is striking, to my eyes at least. Regards, Mauro
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
I think North Korea and other militaristic nations are reading every word on Rossi's blog and putting it together with other information like we are doing here on Vortex. These nations Recognize the economical and military potential to winning this race and are far less influenced by big oil and politics. I am convinced that funding and schedules have already been expedited as a result of Rossi's Demo although we may not see proof of their success until it is too late. As a ZPE pundit I think the first nation to solve the theory behind these claims will not only get a portable source of cheap energy but more importantly the basis for reactionless drive. If the Zero Point field can interface with gas atoms in this environment to produce energy then gas atoms in this environment can also interface with the Zero Point field using energy to produce drive. It is no longer a matter of commercial competition and funding, It is now a clandestine race between peaceful and rogue nations for national security. The same national security often maligned for suffocating this field is now best served by advancing the technology ahead of our enemies. Fran
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
Previously, when I suggested that large sums of money should be spent ensuring the safety of the Rossi system, someone here objected that: 1. It would not be fair. 2. Rossi does not have that kind of money. 3. It would delay the introduction of the system. Let me address these points: 1. It is fair because anyone who introduces a new generator -- conventional or cold fusion -- has to meet the same standard. It is not a burden imposed on Rossi alone. 2. Rossi could easily get the money. If he would do one or two more demos, for longer durations, in more prominent labs, banks and other major institutions would be falling over themselves to lend him the money. Heck, major institutions are contacting *me*, asking how to get a piece of this. I could easily arrange a few demos that would bring Rossi all the money he needs. The money needed up front for tests is a tiny fraction of the profit Rossi will make, if he markets the thing correctly. As I said, it is like the money an auto manufacturer spends smashing up production line cars in safety tests. It is the cost of doing business imposed on every manufacturer, with the cost passed on to the customers. It is far cheaper to smash up a few cars than it would be to not smash cars and have fatal accidents instead. Most of the cost would be borne by large manufacturers, which are the only ones capable of mass production in a reasonable amount of time anyway. If he markets it incorrectly, he will lose everything. Others will take it away from him. That will happen whether he builds a 1 MW unit now without testing, or whether he tests and does a step-by-step scale up. 3. Yes, it would delay things. So what? Once it become known that tests are underway at places such as U.L. and at major corporations which intend to manufacture, the opposition would vanish overnight. Robert Park would still fulminate and many others would still claim it is a fraud, but everyone who matters would sign on. Anyway, it is better to delay things and then introduce a machine that we know is safe, rather than take chances that an explosion or radiation release might occur. - Jed
[Vo]:Robin is also correct!
Yes, in the long run, society will benefit from the cheap energy itself, either way. Patents aren't like copywrites, patents run out in 20 years. In my case, it would be more like 15 years because it will take five years to bring my ideas fully to market. That gives just enough time to help the World through the hard times and economic chaos that will come upon us for the next couple of decades, if things are done smoothly. My concern is that I forsee a very tumultous time as society adapts, not only to cheap energy, but also to the coming extreme Artificial Intelligence and increased automation. We must find ways to give everyone equity in the production of goods and services and the energy they require. Wouldn't it be nice to actually have some of OPEC's money to use for economic development, for creating industries that make goods that last for generations and are easily maintained?; we could actually work less, buy less and accumulate more!!! Wouldn't it be nice to buy everyone on Earth a clean, abundant water supply? We could grow far more food on far less land! Wouldn't it be nice to buy basic medical and educational services for the poor? Incidentally, I have read patents as a hobby for many years; there are many good ideas that failed for business reason, they never sold the rights to anyone, the patent ran out and now no investor will touch the idea since he is not rewarded with a temporary monopoly. From: mix...@bigpond.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:How to Really Give Power to the People! Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 08:25:47 +1100 In reply to Wm. Scott Smith's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2011 11:16:36 -0800: Hi, [snip] Besides, free energy wouldn't be free, just from the standpoint that, extra money being diverted from energy into the otherwise same economy will not increase goods or services nor will it give you more spending power since the prices of everything else will inflate. Your increased spending power will simply vanish into the ravenous, slobbering, gaping, burping mouth of the Beast we call Inflation. You couldn't be more wrong. *Real* wealth is built upon two pillars:- energy and information/knowledge. Nearly free energy will have a tremendous impact on the *real* wealth of the whole planet. We can only hope that that impact lifts everyone far enough out of poverty to ensure a global reduction in the birth rate. (The population is actually falling in some Western countries, and rises most rapidly in the poorest countries). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
[Vo]:Is Rossi a 'black swan'?
The 'Black Swan Theory' of human development was developed by Nassim Nicholas Taleb to better explain the role of freaky randomness in history and science. Not just 'improbability' but utter unpredictability on one level, yet with the kind of hidden influences that makes it stochastic instead of pure randomness. Taleb, rephrasing David Hume sez: the observation of even a million white swans does not justify the statement that all swans are white. And if you are from 'down-under', for example, you might have thought most were black. The main points of 'Black Swan Theory' (Wiki): 1. The disproportionate role of high-impact, hard to predict, and rare events that are beyond the realm of normal expectations in history, science, finance and technology 2. The non-computability of the probability of the consequential rare events using scientific methods (owing to the very nature of small probabilities) 3. The psychological biases that make people individually and collectively blind to uncertainty and unaware of the massive role of the rare event in historical affairs Randomness, of a special kind, plays a big part in these paradigm shifts, in the course of history. Physicists, especially at the PhD level, are exceedingly prone to the falling into the 'black swan' logical error in their thinking process, since they want to believe in the power of predictability, based on known facts and slight natural divergence. They simply cannot grasp that major and unpredictable divergence exists from what is known and that it is often the most important factor of all. Unfortunately, in analyzing most 'astounding' claims - they are often correct, and Bob Park can be up to 99% correct in spurts, since they only attack the weakest claims. They absolutely dread what is happening now in Bologna - to be exposed as completely wrong on the most important new development of their lifetime. This is why the Parks and Garwins of the world can be so dangerous to society in the final analysis - and yes, Park may have been a 'net negative' voice to the general public for all of these years for failing to take notice of the original 'black swan' back in 1989, despite being right most of the time otherwise. When the err, they can set back real progress by decades. Shame on you! . and you know who you are, so it is not necessary to name more names. Redemption is still possible. Progress, according to Taleb, absolutely depends on the occasional black swan - which is what we can call the Goodyear moment since it recognizes that accidental moments in science can be far more productive than the best-laid plans of mice and men. But they are not truly accidental either, yet I will save my 'what is stochastic?' rant for another time and place. Jones
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
--- On Sat, 1/29/11, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 29, 2011, 4:57 PM This is an unknown nuclear reaction for crying out loud! A NUCLEAR REACTION. It is not a Gumby toy or potato battery. I have seen many cold fusion labs, and I have often noted a cavalier attitude toward nuclear safety, industrial standards and common sense. It bothers me a great deal. A serious accident would not only hurt innocent people, it might set back the development of cold fusion for years. It might even end the development of cold fusion, given the irrational fear that people have of novelty and the unknown. Jed, Ionizing radiation is a hazard for sure, in many fields of experimental research. Producing even X-rays is ridiculously easy for the home experimenter. All you need is a source of HV DC, say 30kV+, and a vacuum tube with a cold cathode. In other words, a 'sign' type incandescent bulb available from Home Depot hardware. Cathode is the filament (tie it to HV-), put a piece of foil over the end of the bulb, and tie it to HV+. You now have a cold cathode X-ray tube. Put a current through the filament to get thermionic emission, and things get worse from there. I have had a Geiger counter screaming from a setup like this. I have found a decent shield for this, while still allowing me to observe visually what is going on, is the faceplate from a TV picture tube. Neutrons are worse, but they can be dealt with, just like the X-rays. Yes, everyone is scared of radiation, and I suppose it is for a good reason. It is dangerous. But driving a car is just as dangerous. Perhaps moreso. The problem as I see it is, people have been fed things like The China Syndrome for years, and they're terrified of radiation. Compounded by the fact that there is a sad lack of scientific knowledge among the lay-people in this nation, at least, the situation gets worse. People need to understand that radiation is just like fire; used improperly (stick your hand where it don't belong) and it will hurt you very badly. Use it properly, and it is your friend. What people ought to understand, if (a BIG if) Rossi's machine really does work, is that the radiation emission from it (whatever it is), is probably going to be far less dangerous than the radionucleides emitted from burning coal. A 500 REM flux from a reactor can be avoided by walking a distance away from it. Thanks be to the inverse square law. Long lived radionucleides (relatively, at least), are going to pose a greater threat. They don't give a damn about distance. The neutron emission from a fusion cell is much more intense, but the emission of radionucleides from fossil fuel burning will ignore distance, and follow you home. I guess all I have to say is, all the problems of worrying about convincing the public that the thing (whatever it is) is safe, lie ultimately in educating them in science. I've rambled enough I guess. Apologies for the wasted bandwidth. --Kyle
Re: [Vo]:The Big Picture
In reply to Kyle Mcallister's message of Sat, 29 Jan 2011 22:03:44 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] I guess all I have to say is, all the problems of worrying about convincing the public that the thing (whatever it is) is safe, lie ultimately in educating them in science. [snip] That's an impossible ask. However all that is really important is that it not produce any long lived radionuclides. Prompt radiation can be adequately shielded, and short lived radionuclides decay away to nothing in a reasonable period anyway. They can be easily contained, or even used, if it is done appropriately. I suspect that it does produce some radionuclides with a medium to long life, if left operating long enough, and this may be the reason Rossi is paranoid about gamma spectra being taken (i.e. they would be identified). That would explain why he wants to service them every 6 months - it gives him a chance to replace the content with pure nickel again, so that higher elements don't get a chance to accumulate. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:Is Rossi a 'black swan'?
Interesting idea, but the Rossi cell was predictible. Globally we ( a rather small group) knew that LENR is possible in principle but very difficult to achieve in practice- at a technologically valuable level. Based on a long saga of trial-and-error, in which seemingly the number of errors was much greater than the number of trials (in my personal opinion because only very clean surfaces can work) More specifically Piantelli's work has solved the problems of a working Ni-H cell, Piantelli has working cells. Before Rossi.If the Rossi cell is a real progress toward these- it is not known for sure. As regarding Taleb's book, I have reviewed it for my readers in the issue No 340 of my weekly newsletter Info Kappa- now continued at my blog Ego Out.(I will publish Informavore's Sunday 440 today) A great book, some parts as Extremistan vs Mediocristan are absolutely bright but the author insists too much demonstrating us that the experts- mainly in economics are stupid. When anti-intellectualism is extended to experts- bad things can happen. Peter On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 4:51 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The ‘Black Swan Theory’ of human development was developed by Nassim Nicholas Taleb to better explain the role of “freaky” randomness in history and science. Not just ‘improbability’ but utter unpredictabilityon one level, yet with the kind of hidden influences that makes it stochastic instead of pure randomness. Taleb, rephrasing David Hume sez: the observation of even a million white swans does not justify the statement that all swans are white. And if you are from ‘down-under’, for example, you might have thought most were black. The main points of ‘Black Swan Theory’ (Wiki): 1. The disproportionate role of high-impact, hard to predict, and rare events that are beyond the realm of normal expectations in history, science, finance and technology 2. The non-computability of the probability of the consequential rare events using scientific methods (owing to the very nature of small probabilities) 3. The psychological biases that make people individually and collectively blind to uncertainty and unaware of the massive role of the rare event in historical affairs Randomness, of a special kind, plays a big part in these paradigm shifts,in the course of history.Physicist s, especially at the PhD level, are exceedingly prone to the falling into the ‘black swan’ logical error in their thinking process, since they wantto believe in the power of predictability, based on known facts and slight natural divergence. They simply cannot grasp that major and unpredictable divergence exists from what is known and that it is often the most important factor of all. Unfortunately, in analyzing most ‘astounding’ claims - they are often correct, and Bob Park can be up to 99% correct in spurts, since they only attack the weakest claims. They absolutely dread what is happening now in Bologna – to be exposed as completely wrong on the most important new development of their lifetime. This is why the Parks and Garwins of the world can be so dangerous to society in the final analysis – and yes, Park may have been a ‘net negative’ voice to the general public for all of these years for failing to take notice of the original ‘black swan’ back in 1989, despite being right most of the time otherwise. When the err, they can set back real progress by decades. Shame on you! …and you know who you are, so it is not necessary to name more names . Redemption is still possible. Progress, according to Taleb, absolutely depends on the occasional black swan – which is what we can call the “Goodyear moment” since it recognizes that accidental moments in science can be far more productive than the b est-laid plans of mice and men. But they are not truly accidental either, yet I will save my ‘what is stochastic?’ rant for another time and place. Jones
