Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 8 Feb 2013 10:47:10 -0500: Hi, [snip] Here is a ring island proposal for pumped hydro in the North Sea. This is basically a large hole in the ocean: http://www.hydroworld.com/articles/2013/january/belgium-considers-ring-island-energy-storage-scheme.html - Jed This would seem to go very well with North Sea wind. A large part of the North sea is quite shallow, so wind farms could be placed far from shore and have built in storage at the base of the wind farm. In fact if walls were constructed first, then soil could be dredged up from the seabed in the center to fill the space between the walls, constructing an artificial island upon which the turbines could be mounted. The empty space in the middle would be extra deep because of the sand/soil that had been removed, thus increasing the capacity of the pumped storage. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
[Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
People here have often remarked that an improved battery would help with wind and solar power, by storing energy and leveling demand. That is true. But other methods of storing energy on a large scale already exist. One of the most cost-effecting and reliable ones is pumped hydroelectric storage. It is about 70% to 85% efficient. Not as good as batteries, but not bad. Sometimes, an old technology is a good way to enhance a new one. Here is article about it: Portugal Inaugurates Alqueva Pumped-Storage Hydroelectric Project Expansion http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2013/02/portugal-inaugurates-alqueva-pumped-storage-hydroelectric-project-expansion BEJA, Portugal An extension of Portugal's Alqueva pumped-storage hydroelectric plant has doubled its capacity to 520 MW. The new addition -- called the Alqueva 2 -- was announced by utility company Energia de Portugal (EDP) in October 2007 as a means of storing power produced by southern Portugal's booming wind power sector. . . . 520 MW is a lot. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
Speaking of synergy with hydroelectric (gravity) which can be added to wind/solar farms in close proximity, there is what I think is an even greater potential synergy - since it is not as dependent on proper location. This goes back to Peter Graneau's proposal presented in Infinite Energy a couple of years ago (issue 94) to add boosting to hydroelectric. This article is well worth a re-read. A proof of concept should be not overly difficult. Too bad this one did not get into the ARPA contest. (or if it has gone forward, I am not aware of it). Jones From: Jed Rothwell People here have often remarked that an improved battery would help with wind and solar power, by storing energy and leveling demand. That is true. But other methods of storing energy on a large scale already exist. One of the most cost-effecting and reliable ones is pumped hydroelectric storage. It is about 70% to 85% efficient. Not as good as batteries, but not bad. Sometimes, an old technology is a good way to enhance a new one. Here is article about it: Portugal Inaugurates Alqueva Pumped-Storage Hydroelectric Project Expansion http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2013/02/portugal-inaugu rates-alqueva-pumped-storage-hydroelectric-project-expansion BEJA, Portugal An extension of Portugal's Alqueva pumped-storage hydroelectric plant has doubled its capacity to 520 MW. The new addition -- called the Alqueva 2 -- was announced by utility company Energia de Portugal (EDP) in October 2007 as a means of storing power produced by southern Portugal's booming wind power sector. . . . 520 MW is a lot. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
Here is a ring island proposal for pumped hydro in the North Sea. This is basically a large hole in the ocean: http://www.hydroworld.com/articles/2013/january/belgium-considers-ring-island-energy-storage-scheme.html - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Speaking of synergy with hydroelectric (gravity) which can be added to wind/solar farms in close proximity . . . In many places. But not, for example, in Texas, where the landscape is flat. Not a lot of uphill to go to. They put some wind farms on gigantic mesas in Texas, which are up in the air but still pretty flat. Not a lot of water out there, either. I expect the Pacific Northwest would be ideal for this. As I mentioned, in Belgium they are thinking of making a hole in the ocean. The ocean is flat but this works anyway. Perhaps it would work in the Gulf of Mexico off of Texas. I view wind and pumped storage as a temporary solution before we get cold fusion or some kind of plasma fusion. We need the clean energy now, so we should build it. There will be a long overlap while we install cold fusion, maybe 20 to 40 years. We should use wind turbines during that transition, rather than coal. The turbines will pay back and even wear out in 20 years. We will get our money's worth. Jim Dunn and I has a spirited debate about how long the transition is likely to take. I say sooner, he says later. Either way, a wind turbine installed the day serious cold fusion research begins will likely pay for itself. I described part of our conversation here: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJthefuturem.pdf - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
From: Jed Rothwell In many places. But not, for example, in Texas, where the landscape is flat. Not a lot of uphill to go to. They put some wind farms on gigantic mesas in Texas, which are up in the air but still pretty flat. Not a lot of water out there, either. I expect the Pacific Northwest would be ideal for this. Well, to get back to Peter Graneau's actual proposal - the synergy attaches to an already existing hydroelectric facility. It is another kind of in situ synergy which is not related to wind/solar. It would add its own boost as a separate effect, even when those are added to pumped storage. Any existing dam or pumped storage facility could have this device, assuming it works - as a replacement turbine. Apparently, a lot of folks did not fully understand the implications of his original article in IE, myself included. In short, his suggestion is to exchange the old type of water turbine (which is very efficient but that is not the point) for a new type of turbine, and it looks similar but it can capture hydrogen bond energy in addition to gravitational energy. I suspect that some of the net electrical or mechanical power will need to be recycled to do this, but he suggests a 2:1 net gain. This is not exactly the same thing as the water arc explosion, if I understand it. In effect, more net energy is available from water flow itself (according to Peter) but the excess energy is chemical not gravitational. However, I think one of the major problems is that this contention is lacking in real proof, and in a situation where it should be rather straightforward to provide proof and where there would be a lot of interest from people like TVA. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
I take it none of you have played the game Myst? There is a tall water tower that can be connected to a windmill that then pumps water from the ocean into the tower, and the water can then be redirected to machines that run directly off the pressure, air compressor style. On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:39 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: ** ** *From:* Jed Rothwell ** ** In many places. But not, for example, in Texas, where the landscape is flat. Not a lot of uphill to go to. ** ** They put some wind farms on gigantic mesas in Texas, which are up in the air but still pretty flat. Not a lot of water out there, either. ** ** I expect the Pacific Northwest would be ideal for this. ** ** ** ** Well, to get back to Peter Graneau’s actual proposal – the synergy attaches to an already existing hydroelectric facility. ** ** It is another kind of *in situ* synergy which is not related to wind/solar. It would add its own boost as a separate effect, even when those are added to pumped storage. Any existing dam or pumped storage facility could have this device, assuming it works - as a replacement turbine. ** ** Apparently, a lot of folks did not fully understand the implications of his original article in IE, myself included. ** ** In short, his suggestion is to exchange the old type of water turbine (which is very efficient but that is not the point) for a new type of turbine, and it looks similar but it can capture “hydrogen bond energy” in addition to gravitational energy. I suspect that some of the net electrical or mechanical power will need to be recycled to do this, but he suggests a 2:1 net gain. ** ** This is not exactly the same thing as the water arc explosion, if I understand it. In effect, more net energy is available from water flow itself (according to Peter) but the excess energy is *chemical* not gravitational. ** ** However, I think one of the major problems is that this contention is lacking in real proof, and in a situation where it should be rather straightforward to provide proof and where there would be a lot of interest from people like TVA. ** ** Jones
Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
One big problem with this concept is that there are not many locations available to place new facilities. And the few that remain are not likely to be near the generation equipment. Another major problem is that new dams destroy wild streams that are not too well protected. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Feb 8, 2013 10:32 am Subject: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy People here have often remarked that an improved battery would help with wind and solar power, by storing energy and leveling demand. That is true. But other methods of storing energy on a large scale already exist. One of the most cost-effecting and reliable ones is pumped hydroelectric storage. It is about 70% to 85% efficient. Not as good as batteries, but not bad. Sometimes, an old technology is a good way to enhance a new one. Here is article about it: Portugal Inaugurates Alqueva Pumped-Storage Hydroelectric Project Expansion http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2013/02/portugal-inaugurates-alqueva-pumped-storage-hydroelectric-project-expansion BEJA, Portugal An extension of Portugal's Alqueva pumped-storage hydroelectric plant has doubled its capacity to 520 MW. The new addition -- called the Alqueva 2 -- was announced by utility company Energia de Portugal (EDP) in October 2007 as a means of storing power produced by southern Portugal's booming wind power sector. . . . 520 MW is a lot. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
Pumped storage destabilized the spin of the earth. As you raise the mass from the surface, the rotation of the planet slows. This could easily cause the moon to be flung from orbit. (T.I.C.)
Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: One big problem with this concept is that there are not many locations available to place new facilities. These can be new, man-made facilities, such as a hole in the ocean. They have a lot of them in Switzerland where they make alpine lakes. It is like having a gigantic cistern far up in a mountain. Quote: Today there are 556 hydropower plants in Switzerland that each have a capacity of at least 300 kilowatts, and these produce an average of around 35,830 gigawatt hours (GWh) per annum, 47% of which is produced in run-of-river power plants, 49% in storage power plants and approximately 4% in pumped storage power plants. http://www.bfe.admin.ch/themen/00490/00491/index.html?lang=en And the few that remain are not likely to be near the generation equipment. Another major problem is that new dams destroy wild streams that are not too well protected. You do not need a stream, although in some cases they use existing natural streams. If the pumped storage lake is man-made, you stop the downhill flow completely while pumping up, or while waiting on stand-by. You cannot stop the flow in a natural hydroelectric plant. That would hurt the river wildlife. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
On Feb 8, 2013, at 9:01, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: One big problem with this concept is that there are not many locations available to place new facilities. I think this has been mentioned here before, but what about diverting the unneeded power to drive electrolysis and capture the hydrogen for later use in a generator that makes use of an internal combustion engine or is sold on the consumer market? Eric
Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy
Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I think this has been mentioned here before, but what about diverting the unneeded power to drive electrolysis and capture the hydrogen for later use in a generator that makes use of an internal combustion engine or is sold on the consumer market? A fuel cell would be more efficient than an internal combustion engine or gas turbine. There is ongoing research to develop that. I think at present this is not as efficient as pumped hydro storage (70% to 85% -- as I mentioned). It has the advantage that you can send the hydrogen by pipeline and recombine it closer to a big city where they need the electricity. That may have lower transmission losses than electric power lines do. Also pipes are cheaper and take up less space than high voltage electric power lines. Do a Google search for electrolysis energy storage and you find stuff like this: http://www.incoteco.com/upload/ENSFinalReport.pdf - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy - electrolysis
On 2/8/2013 5:04 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I think this has been mentioned here before, but what about diverting the unneeded power to drive electrolysis and capture the hydrogen for later use in a generator that makes use of an internal combustion engine or is sold on the consumer market? A fuel cell would be more efficient than an internal combustion engine or gas turbine. There is ongoing research to develop that. I think at present this is not as efficient as pumped hydro storage (70% to 85% -- as I mentioned). It has the advantage that you can send the hydrogen by pipeline and recombine it closer to a big city where they need the electricity. That may have lower transmission losses than electric power lines do. Also pipes are cheaper and take up less space than high voltage electric power lines. Do a Google search for electrolysis energy storage and you find stuff like this: http://www.incoteco.com/upload/ENSFinalReport.pdf - Jed I read most of ENS Final Report and extracted some tidbits: Electrolysis ranges from ~75% efficient for LV hydrogen to ~85% for HV hydrogen. I did not wade in deeper to dope that out. So, it's similar to pumped hydro, except that the efficiency of the fuel cell must be multiplied in. The cost-to-implement in Denmark, 2008, was high, needing total relief from their 80% motor fuel taxes, to even consider. (Proposal was for hydrogen depots for vehicles.) The Europeans (and us merikans I suppose) price their electricity minute-by-minute when figuring which utility owes what when the sun hides but the winds pick up. This often results in a zero cost/MWHr, which is Important to Avoid. If you inject hydrogen into the intake of a working Diesel engine (and adjust fuel/air ratio as required), it will slow down. Engine has to reworked to deal with the low power-to-volumn of hydrogen. Yours, Dave B.
