Re: [Vo]:Test

[Jonathan Berry]

Real, the car accelerates to a greater speed, and the end point is below
the starting point.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 19:02, Frank Grimer <88.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg
>
> Two cars.
>
> Green low road car arrives first.
>
> Real or Fake.
>
> Please explain your choice.
>
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 07:55, Frank Grimer <88.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Jones Beene]

 Frank 

The effect is an interesting phenomenon even if the tendency is to overlook 
rolling resistance and friction. But the problem for the average observer - the 
problem with any metaphor or model for LENR - after all these years, is simple. 
No commercial device.
Not just no commercial device on the marketplace but little that is truly novel 
on the horizon. No toy or demo. At least the video makers with the carts have a 
commercial demo, 

Look at recent conferences. The lesson seems to be that the cost of attendance 
is inversely proportional to real technological advancement


Frank Grimer wrote:  
To me it is a metaphor for catalysis... One half of component A drops down the 
field pressure gradient to the low road and speeds up.The other half dawdles 
along the surface. They both meet up at B and complete their reaction.The 
reaction speed for the low road is therefore much faster than the reaction 
speed for the high road.
Now in this case the field is gravity. In chemical catalysis it is 
Beta-atmosphere.

In my research on clays I showed that specimens compacted from clay particle 
aggregations had a higher strength, ergo higher pF, for smaller aggregations 
than for larger aggregations.
Now one of Mizuno's experiments involved a palladium specimen compacted from 
grains of the metal. The heat generated started running away. Fearing an 
explosion he stopped it.
I read somewhere that he has since had specimens which put in a bath generate 
large amounts of steam, far too much to be the result of chemical reaction.

  
  

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Frank Grimer]

Thanks Jones.
To me it is a metaphor for catalysis.
One half of component A drops down the field pressure gradient to the low
road and speeds up.
The other half dawdles along the surface.
They both meet up at B and complete their reaction.
The reaction speed for the low road is therefore much faster than the
reaction speed for the high road.
Now in this case the field is gravity.
In chemical catalysis it is Beta-atmosphere.

In my research on clays I showed that specimens compacted from clay
particle aggregations had a higher strength, ergo higher pF, for smaller
aggregations than for larger aggregations.

Now one of Mizuno's experiments involved a palladium specimen compacted
from grains of the metal. The heat generated started running away. Fearing
an explosion he stopped it.

I read somewhere that he has since had specimens which put in a bath
generate large amounts of steam, far too much to be the result of chemical
reaction.

To an unprejudiced observer he has succeeded in finding the holy grail of
Cold Fusion. It seems to me that the only way prejudice will be overcome is
to develop the system commercially. Eventually the skeptics will be forced
to overcome their cognitive dissonance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXuI2oZFwBc



On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 14:34, Jones Beene  wrote:

> This similar vid is even a bit more "fake" in terms of expectation
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvlmdPLMQM4
>
> The more general phenomenon seems to be called the Brachistochrome Problem
>
> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Brac
>
> Jones
>
>
> Frank Grimer wrote:
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg
>
> Two cars.
>
> Green low road car arrives first.
>
> Real or Fake.
>
> Please explain your choice.
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Frank Grimer]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachistochrone_curve

That's rightBut to less "with it " people in some forums it seems a
terrible enigma. :-)

The trouble with the maths is that it kills all vestige of the real world
and prevents one seeing the demo in a different light. For example an
analogue to Cold Fusion via catalysis.

Years ago I got into correspondence with a couple of chemists, Gankin,V,Y.
and Gankin Y.V. on the subject of catalysis. They reckoned that people
didn't really understand it and so it was pretty empirical.
They sent me a hardback copy of their latest book and asked me to review
it. As an Engineer I felt I wasn't up to the task and declined.

Now I see the trolly (chemical) as dropping dawn a pressure gravity
gamma-atmosphere,  increasing speed and coming back up to complete the
reaction. The trolley reaction on the surface proceeds more slowly.

The pressure drop can reach pF6 for water.

pF scale
> pF is a log scale for representing soil matric potential. Thus,
> (17.1)   pF =  log10(-100y)
> where y is the matric potential in metres of water. Notice that y is
> always negative under unsaturated conditions.
> For example, if your measured wilting point is -15 bar (-152.96 m water),
> then the pF value is 4.2.


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYGNoZVrsxQ


Catalysis is essentially speeding up a reaction by dropping down
field pressure gradients. If things remain on the surface then
the reaction is slow - like the yellow car.

I have shown that for water there is a hierarchy of three pressure
fields (see Prof, Chapin's web site).. In a material like Palladium there
must be dozens. These pressure fields can be manipulated by processing. I
have shown that for clays.

The Effect of Pulverization on the Quality of Clay-cement Influence du
> Degré de Pulvérisation de l’Argile sur la Qualité du Sol-ciment by F. J. G
> r im e r , B.Sc . and N . F. Ross, B.Sc., Road Research Laboratory,
> Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, H arm ondsw orth,
> Middlesex, England


Mizuno processed his palladium and got a runaway reaction which he had to
close down . He "tickled the dragon".

To my mind that was clearly cold fusion. No one appreciates it because they
have the wrong model of material behaviour.  The right model involves
humongous cognitive dissonance for acceptance in the chemical field - let
alone by the hot fusioneers.
As frequently happens in science, advance has to come from the outside.




On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 14:34, Jones Beene  wrote:

> This similar vid is even a bit more "fake" in terms of expectation
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvlmdPLMQM4
>
> The more general phenomenon seems to be called the Brachistochrome Problem
>
> https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Brac
>
> Jones
>
>
> Frank Grimer wrote:
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg
>
> Two cars.
>
> Green low road car arrives first.
>
> Real or Fake.
>
> Please explain your choice.
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Jones Beene]

This similar vid is even a bit more "fake" in terms of expectation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvlmdPLMQM4
The more general phenomenon seems to be called the Brachistochrome Problem 

https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Brac
Jones


Frank Grimer wrote:  
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg

Two cars.

Green low road car arrives first.

Real or Fake.

Please explain your choice.





  

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Frank Grimer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSv_IlXmBg

Two cars.

Green low road car arrives first.

Real or Fake.

Please explain your choice.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 at 07:55, Frank Grimer <88.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test of heading

[Jones Beene]

 No text

Frank Grimer wrote:  
 
 Test of text  

Re: [Vo]:Test mx1

[Terry Blanton]

Watch out where the huskies go
And don't you eat that yellow snow.

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:07 AM  wrote:
>
> Testing from mx1
>

Re: [Vo]:test

[Jed Rothwell]

Working now. There was a glitch yesterday.

RE: [Vo]:test

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

I received Beaty test.

Bob Cook

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10


From: leaking pen 
Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 9:24:59 PM
To: vortex-l
Subject: Re: [Vo]:test

didnt get it. sorry.

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:14 PM William Beaty 
mailto:bi...@eskimo.com>> wrote:
test

Re: [Vo]:test

[leaking pen]

didnt get it. sorry.

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:14 PM William Beaty  wrote:

> test
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Teslaalset]

Thanks Jed!
This was indeed an automated spamfilter change causing the problem.
I'll keep an eye on the spambox more often now.
Good you sent me a response to my private mail address too, otherwise it
would have taken me longer to find out.



On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Check your spam file. Gmail has suddenly started sending many of my Vortex
> messages to the spam file. Actually, it does not send them, because I have
> a filter set up to overrule it, but many messages say:
>
> *This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created.*
>
> (Your message said that too.)
>
>
> Teslaalset  wrote:
>
> Haven't been receiving mails from Vortex for 2 days.
>> This is a reflector test
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Jed Rothwell]

Michele Comitini  wrote:

Confirmed here too!  gmail has put vortex-l on the spam-list!


It is not just Vortex messages. I think the filter is being triggered by
unusually short messages. Other short messages from various people have
been marked as Spam lately. Google must have tweaked their spam detection
software lately. They went overboard, filtering out too many messages. They
will probably fix the problem soon.

As you say, it will help if people mark messages as "not spam."

I have had problems with short messages generated by hacked g-mail accounts
that begin with messages such as: "Hi! How are you? People say it works . .
." with a link to a web site that steals your e-mail log on. I have gotten
4 or 5 of these, including one from someone who is long dead. I told his
relatives to close down the account. I suppose the hackers have access to
all of his e-mail.

G-mail correctly identifies these messages. It says:

*Be careful with this message. *It contains content that's typically used
to steal personal information. Learn
more

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Michele Comitini]

Confirmed here too!  gmail has put vortex-l on the spam-list! I
suppose that a number marking vortex-l messages as "NOT SPAM"
would help the filter bot change its mind...

2014-04-23 16:16 GMT+02:00 Jones Beene :
> This happened to me recently.
>
> The solution that worked for me is to re-subscribe.
>
> To subscribe, send a *blank* message to:
> vortex-l-requ...@eskimo.com
>
> Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header.  NOTHING 
> else!
>
> No quotes around "subscribe," of course.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Rocha
>
> Wow, same here! :O
>
> 2014-04-23 9:56 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :
>> Check your spam file. Gmail has suddenly started sending many of my Vortex
>> messages to the spam file. Actually, it does not send them, because I have a
>> filter set up to overrule it, but many messages say:
>>
>> This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created.
>>
>> (Your message said that too.)
>>
>>
>> Teslaalset  wrote:
>>
>>> Haven't been receiving mails from Vortex for 2 days.
>>> This is a reflector test
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>

RE: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Jones Beene]

This happened to me recently.

The solution that worked for me is to re-subscribe. 

To subscribe, send a *blank* message to:
vortex-l-requ...@eskimo.com

Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header.  NOTHING 
else!

No quotes around "subscribe," of course. 


-Original Message-
From: Daniel Rocha 

Wow, same here! :O

2014-04-23 9:56 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :
> Check your spam file. Gmail has suddenly started sending many of my Vortex
> messages to the spam file. Actually, it does not send them, because I have a
> filter set up to overrule it, but many messages say:
>
> This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created.
>
> (Your message said that too.)
>
>
> Teslaalset  wrote:
>
>> Haven't been receiving mails from Vortex for 2 days.
>> This is a reflector test
>
>



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Daniel Rocha]

Wow, same here! :O

2014-04-23 9:56 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :
> Check your spam file. Gmail has suddenly started sending many of my Vortex
> messages to the spam file. Actually, it does not send them, because I have a
> filter set up to overrule it, but many messages say:
>
> This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created.
>
> (Your message said that too.)
>
>
> Teslaalset  wrote:
>
>> Haven't been receiving mails from Vortex for 2 days.
>> This is a reflector test
>
>



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:[test, please ignore]

[Jed Rothwell]

Check your spam file. Gmail has suddenly started sending many of my Vortex
messages to the spam file. Actually, it does not send them, because I have
a filter set up to overrule it, but many messages say:

*This message was not sent to Spam because of a filter you created.*

(Your message said that too.)


Teslaalset  wrote:

Haven't been receiving mails from Vortex for 2 days.
> This is a reflector test
>

RE: [Vo]:Test - Pinging Vortex

[OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

Vortex let this go through. But then it clamped down again.

 

I still can't post a new subject thread. This is weird.

 

Steve

 

From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net] 
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 10:32 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Test - Pinging Vortex

 

Pinging vortex.

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

svjart.OrionWorks.com

www.zazzle.com/orionworks

tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[H Veeder]

:-)
You never know what people will find useful.

Harry


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 11:07 AM,  wrote:

> Thanks H Veeder.  These characters do text in Kindle while the font symbol
> does not.  I updated my e book with these symbols and removed words like
> omega.
>
>  Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ
>
>  Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ
>
>  Harry
>

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[John Berry]

The second phi is the same as the 3rd symbol font phi in chrome.


On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 7:20 AM,  wrote:

> The one that is giving me trouble is phi a circle with a line though it.
>  This is what Greek has:
>
>  φ  Φ
>
>
>
> They are not quite right.  Here it is in symbol
>
>
> font.
>
>
> Φ
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[fznidarsic]

The one that is giving me trouble is phi a circle with a line though it.  This 
is what Greek has:



φ  Φ




They are not quite right.  Here it is in symbol 


font.


Φ




Frank

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[Jim Dickenson]

Still Greek...in Chrome on XP SP3.


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:36 AM, H Veeder  wrote:

> This is a test to see if the greek letters I have copied and pasted into
> this message are preserved as they pass through the mail programs.
>
> The characters come from this site
>
> http://greek.typeit.org/
>
>
> θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ
>
> Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ
>
> Harry
>

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[Daniel Rocha]

Try this one. It's classical greek, a very interesting text from Socrates.
So, you may test the abilities of google translate :)

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Μωυσῆς ῞Ινα τί ἐζωγρήσατε πᾶν θῆλυ;

αὗται γὰρ ἦσαν τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμα Βαλααμ τοῦ ἀποστῆσαι καὶ
ὑπεριδεῖν τὸ ῥῆμα κυρίου ἕνεκεν Φογωρ, καὶ ἐγένετο ἡ πληγὴ ἐν τῇ συναγωγῇ
κυρίου.


καὶ νῦν ἀποκτείνατε πᾶν ἀρσενικὸν ἐν πάσῃ τῇ ἀπαρτίᾳ, καὶ πᾶσαν γυναῖκα,
ἥτις ἔγνωκεν κοίτην ἄρσενος, ἀποκτείνατε·


πᾶσαν τὴν ἀπαρτίαν τῶν γυναικῶν, ἥτις οὐκ οἶδεν κοίτην ἄρσενος, ζωγρήσατε
αὐτάς.


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[fznidarsic]

Thanks H Veeder.  These characters do text in Kindle while the font symbol does 
not.  I updated my e book with these symbols and removed words like omega.


Frank







θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ


Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ


Harry

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[Alain Sepeda]

perfect greek. now I wait for news in greek ;-)

any one for news in chinese (old news)

近日，国家低碳能源规划研究院院长
、高灵能源投资股份有限公司总裁戴思嘉在东钓鱼台‘星湖园温泉庄园’会见了美国切诺基基金联合主席托马斯·达顿，双方就美国方面的镍发电能源技术问题，进行了系统的交流磋商，就共同合作推进这一革命性的能源技术达成了一致认识。国家发改委和国务院国资委以及国家能源局的有关领导一同参加了会见。



在全球能源紧缺的背景下，新型能源的发展正方兴继涌。而处于镍反应终试阶段的报告显示，低温镍反应发电技术是当前成本最低且原材料资源较为丰富的发电技术。试验同时显示，镍能发电除了在经济成本方面有着非常好的前景，在环境保护领域也有着得天独厚的巨大优势。在镍反应过程中，不会有任何温室气体及其他污染物排放，不会产生放射性材料，亦无需煤炭或石油等化石能源。


(if someone can translate better than google ;-)


2014-02-16 7:36 GMT+01:00 H Veeder :

> This is a test to see if the greek letters I have copied and pasted into
> this message are preserved as they pass through the mail programs.
>
> The characters come from this site
>
> http://greek.typeit.org/
>
>
> θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ
>
> Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ
>
> Harry
>

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[fznidarsic]

This has been an enigma for me.  There are Greek letters in the font symbol and 
just plain Greek letters.  I could never quite figure out what the difference 
is.  Kindle does not text symbol characters.  That's been a problem.  I will 
try these.


Frank

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[John Berry]

And on Chrome.


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 11:29 PM, Nigel Dyer  wrote:

> I get greek: running thunderbird on windows 7
>
> Nigel
>
>
> On 16/02/2014 06:36, H Veeder wrote:
>
>> This is a test to see if the greek letters I have copied and pasted into
>> this message are preserved as they pass through the mail programs.
>>
>> The characters come from this site
>>
>> http://greek.typeit.org/
>>
>>
>> θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ
>>
>> Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ
>>
>> Harry
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:test for greek letters

[Nigel Dyer]

I get greek: running thunderbird on windows 7

Nigel

On 16/02/2014 06:36, H Veeder wrote:
This is a test to see if the greek letters I have copied and pasted 
into this message are preserved as they pass through the mail programs.


The characters come from this site

http://greek.typeit.org/


θ ω ε ρ τ ψ υ ι ο π α σ δ φ γ η ς κ λ ζ χ ξ ω β ν μ

Θ Ω Ε Ρ Τ Ψ  Υ Ι Ο Π Α Σ Δ Φ Γ Η ς Κ Λ Ζ Χ Ξ Ω Β Ν Μ

Harry

RE: [Vo]:Test Message

[Mason Ainsworth]

You passed the somewhat off-beat test. And, arguably all others did as well 
when they did not respond. (They just acted at a level not exemplified by 
Koans.)

 . . . this primitive mailing list may not acknowledge the 21st century. But it 
still allows us to use a transformational technology generally recognized as 
being invented about 3200 BCE concerning a technology hopefully reaching the 
stage of practical implementation 'relatively' soon.

It will work for me.

Mason

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 21:29:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test Message
From: jedrothw...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com

Mason Ainsworth  wrote:
 
Please respond if you don't get this. 

How can you respond if you do not get something?! "Raise your hand if you 
absent from class."
Perhaps you refer to the emoji (絵文字). That did not come through. This is a 
primitive mailing list. ASCII only. We do not acknowledge the 21st Century.

- Jed
  

Re: [Vo]:Test Message

[Jed Rothwell]

Mason Ainsworth  wrote:


> Please respond if you don't get this.[image: Emoji]
>

How can you respond if you do not get something?! "Raise your hand if you
absent from class."

Perhaps you refer to the emoji (絵文字). That did not come through. This is a
primitive mailing list. ASCII only. We do not acknowledge the 21st Century.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Eric Walker]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe <
stefan.ita...@gmail.com> wrote:

It would be nice to get some statistics out of that, any links?
>

Although this is a reasonable request, there are two difficulties in
addressing it.  The first is that the experiments span a range of
qualities, from very good to very poor, and they are somewhat hard to
compare with one another due to the large parameter space.  A second
difficulty is that there are many relevant papers.

As a start, you should take a look at Ed Storms's book (full disclosure --
he is an occasional participant on this list).  I recommend it very highly.
 It has a number of tables that distill many years of experiments, and the
different sections cover different types of experiment -- old school P&F
electrolysis experiments, gas loading experiments, ion beam experiments,
etc.  What you are looking for is perhaps summarized in one or two sections
of this book.  I am not persuaded of all of his conclusions, but his
conclusions are all well-researched.

For a more in-depth investigation, the early papers (say 1989-1991) are
very interesting.  I am reading through them now.  These include mainstream
journal articles and early conference proceedings, some of the latter of
which can be obtained from Amazon.  In addition, LENR-CANR.org has many
early papers as well as a search interface that will allow you to search
for specific terms (e.g., "electrolysis").  (This is Jed Rothwell's site.)
 You can also find interesting papers on the New Energy Times site.

The early papers are not the only ones that are relevant for what you're
looking at, of course.  But I get the vague sense that the field is
starting to move on from deuterium electrolysis, although occasionally one
will see new papers.  In general, early papers were published in mainstream
journals and conference proceedings, up until about 1992.  After that,
there is the sporadic paper in Naturwissenschaften and Fusion Technology,
and everything else is largely in conference proceedings or in JCMNS or is
self-published.

One of the challenges with deuterium electrolysis is that it is very
finicky.  For some reason many trials end up being duds, and only
occasionally is a reaction seen, which, in some cases, is dramatic, and
which, in many cases, is barely above the threshold of measurement error.
 These same challenges will no doubt recur in a double-blind experiment
along the lines of what you're thinking about.  I get the impression that
the NiH gas loading system is easier to get going reliably once you know
the secret recipe, but I could be inferring too much from the available
information to justify this conclusion.  Technically speaking, the
researchers may not be 100 percent convinced that NiH is legit, but I get
the sense that people's impressions are starting to change.

To summarize, check out Ed Storms's book or LENR-CANR.org as a starting
point.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Alain Sepeda]

yes, and seeing the story of LENR compared to other extraordinary claims, I
think that the problem of LENr is that it requires much intelligence,
competence, trust in instruments, in computation, in good protocol, that it
is too easy for a lazy mind (like me sometime) to quickly conclude that it
is artifact, and stop looking...

so the protocol should be very very simple, and free of any possibility to
claim a trick, an artifact... something a layman can understand, and which
a doctor cannot critic without looking ridiculous.

about blank, I agree I've exaggerated, it is useful to increase trust, and
by the way it is useful for the testers to understand the performance of
their apparatus...

One idea that could be pleasant is the turbine-generator feed-back, but
seeing the many critics, rational, extreme, or absurds, I'm afraid that any
complex system will call for denial...

 on the opposite a mass calorimetry with ice, or warming a big bath could
do the job.

I've heard of a simple protocol compatible with steam in the reactor, and
only warm water measured... just split and mixing...

anyway hearing some comments, it seems that even the position of
thermocouple with DGT test was criticized. Despite the blank run at COP0.5
(this way the blank was useful to shut down claims of fraud).

in absolute calorimetry, I don't understand how bad thermocouple
positioning can have a 300% impact... same for bubble back in flowmeter...
Sometime it seems it is pure folly. But yes there can be mistakes...



2013/8/5 Jed Rothwell 

> Alain Sepeda  wrote:
>
> I think that comparative calorimetry is not accpetable, not needed, given
>> the hysteric level of skepticism and the high COP.
>>
>
> I agree, but you do need a good calibration before and after the test. I
> suppose that amounts to the same thing as comparative calorimetry.
>
> It is best to apply the most conventional method available. Contrary to
> Carl Sagan, extraordinary claims require the most ordinary proof you can
> manage.
>
> Never use an unusual method when a standard, proven, off-the-shelf
> instrument is available. That is why the Levi test with the IR camera was
> so good, and why Ericsson and Pomp's suggestion that they use a
> do-it-yourself IR camera is so ridiculous. (I think the suggestion was they
> should use the raw output from a camera directly rather than going through
> the manufacturer's firmware and software.)
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Eric Walker]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe <
stefan.ita...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tell me if I'm spaming ...
>

Not in the slightest.  You seem to know something about statistics.  I hope
you will be very critical and complain about any mistaken reasoning you
see.  There are many electrical engineers, software developers and artists
here, but not very many people with a clear command of advanced statistical
methods.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Jed Rothwell]

Stefan Israelsson Tampe  wrote:


> My take on this is that 'unusual method' depends a bit on the standard
> practices in a field of science. If for example it is "easy" to perform a
> test with good enough energy surplus, then we only need to supply the
> numbers like, take every 10th specimen in series of consecutive samples in
> the production series . . .
>

It has been difficult to produce heat. It has not been so difficult to
measure it, in many cases. The excess heat has often been greater than 0.5
W, which is easy to measure using proper instruments,even when input
electrolysis power exceeds that by a large margin.

Quoting my ICCF18 presentation:

John Bockris once said to me: "I am not an expert in calorimetry, so I
scouted out the *best expert* in Texas and asked him visit our lab. He
came, looked at the apparatus and the data, and then he laughed and said:
‘You don't need *me*; *anyone can measure that much heat*!'"

(Bockris spoke in underlines and exclamation points. He boomed.)

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Alain Sepeda  wrote:
>
> I think that comparative calorimetry is not accpetable, not needed, given
>> the hysteric level of skepticism and the high COP.
>>
>
> I agree, but you do need a good calibration before and after the test. I
> suppose that amounts to the same thing as comparative calorimetry.
>
> It is best to apply the most conventional method available. Contrary to
> Carl Sagan, extraordinary claims require the most ordinary proof you can
> manage.
>

Or, KISS, something which should be a mantra.


> Never use an unusual method when a standard, proven, off-the-shelf
> instrument is available. That is why the Levi test with the IR camera was
> so good, and why Ericsson and Pomp's suggestion that they use a
> do-it-yourself IR camera is so ridiculous. (I think the suggestion was they
> should use the raw output from a camera directly rather than going through
> the manufacturer's firmware and software.)
>

My take on this is that 'unusual method' depends a bit on the standard
practices in a field of science. If for example it is "easy" to perform a
test with good enough energy surplus, then we only need to supply the
numbers like, take every 10th specimen in series of consecutive samples in
the production series, take in total 45 of them, perform these methods on
them to decide which are potent and perform classic FP or any variant of
your taste and you will see the surplus is beyond chemical in at least one
of the potent samples. That I agree can be perfectly enough. On the other
hand If you ask another field of science where reproducing results are
common problems, they would perhaps employ other tactics. Perhaps, and only
perhaps, one can crossbreed LENR and these other fields.

/Stefan

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe]

On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:00 PM, Alain Sepeda  wrote:

> I think that comparative calorimetry is not accpetable, not needed, given
> the hysteric level of skepticism and the high COP.
>
> Absolute measurement of heat, not even with blank, should be the only and
> best solution.
>
> no hysterical skeptic will assume the blank is sincere, ...
>

I only care for the skeptic, hysterical skeptics are just junk and pushes
sane scientist towards believing. Of cause critical minded persons would
like to redo the test, just that if you present the needed method, then
they will reproduce the result and believe in it. The trick is to get
skeptics going to do the right kind of test. Again you need to have control
of the dynamics of the production and you will need to have good statistics
for them to do a correct test.


> even the absolute heat measurement, are currently put in doubt.
>

well you need to optimize the process, which probably will take quite some
effort e.g. funding so that the higher yields
will be much more reproducable no? Until that happens one need to take the
advantage of what we can produce with not too much effort e.g. also use the
cases where the heat generated is less then total input. (Note, If I have
good statistics about the result we have had to this point I could be much
more precise, without it I can be off target.) for which one can raise
funding etc.


>
> the doubt must be addressed, but no more no less than about apollo and
> 9/11 conspiracies.
>
>
I totally agree, conspiracies is all the rage these days. But it flourishes
on both side of the fence.

Regards
Stefan

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Jed Rothwell]

Alain Sepeda  wrote:

I think that comparative calorimetry is not accpetable, not needed, given
> the hysteric level of skepticism and the high COP.
>

I agree, but you do need a good calibration before and after the test. I
suppose that amounts to the same thing as comparative calorimetry.

It is best to apply the most conventional method available. Contrary to
Carl Sagan, extraordinary claims require the most ordinary proof you can
manage.

Never use an unusual method when a standard, proven, off-the-shelf
instrument is available. That is why the Levi test with the IR camera was
so good, and why Ericsson and Pomp's suggestion that they use a
do-it-yourself IR camera is so ridiculous. (I think the suggestion was they
should use the raw output from a camera directly rather than going through
the manufacturer's firmware and software.)

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Alain Sepeda]

I think that comparative calorimetry is not accpetable, not needed, given
the hysteric level of skepticism and the high COP.

Absolute measurement of heat, not even with blank, should be the only and
best solution.

no hysterical skeptic will assume the blank is sincere, ...

even the absolute heat measurement, are currently put in doubt.

some even reject a whole test having proven big CIOP, for minors doubt of
few dozen of %, and accuse the testers to have minimized the heat...

it is psychiatry, not science.

the doubt must be addressed, but no more no less than about apollo and 9/11
conspiracies.



2013/8/4 Stefan Israelsson Tampe 

>
> Hi Eric,
>
> I'm not up to speed with your emails. The LENR+ type of activities is
> still something that if proper tests are
> done and affirmative, will be much more interesting, this is clear. But I
> would like to keep the discussion to the
> original FP experiment.
>
>
>> I think this would be an interesting test to whether there is a possible
>> isotope effect. But there's evidence that LENR is seen in light water/light
>> hydrogen systems as well.  So if the test concerns the *existence* of LENR,
>> rather than a parameter that affects it, I think another control should be
>> sought out.
>>
>
> To decide here one need to have a clue about,
>
> P(FP-effect | water)  and P(FP-effect | heavy water)
>
> There is a reason why heavy water is typically used so I would assume that
> the effect seen is much stronger
> (more frequent, higher energy) then when water is used. If the frequencies
> are the same, I would guess that
> we could measure the strength to a number and use that in stead in a test.
> The FP effect itself for a skeptic
> does not necessary equate to a nuclear effect. It having an isotopic
> effect would be quite a strong indication
> that there is a nuclear effect or am I wrong? Else wouldn't it be so
> interesting that people would take notice
> of this field?
>
> Cheers!
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe]

Tell me if I'm spaming ...




On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe <
> stefan.ita...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> But I would like to keep the discussion to the original FP experiment.
>>
>
> Ah, yes.  Sounds good.  It seems you are pretty familiar with the details,
> then.
>
>

Not enough to avoid stupid mistakes.


> There is a reason why heavy water is typically used so I would assume that
>> the effect seen is much stronger
>> (more frequent, higher energy) then when water is used.
>>
>
> This is true, to a certain extent, but there have been questions about
> light water since the time of Pons and Fleischmann.  Fleischmann himself
> doubted that light water was a suitable control.  If even some activity is
> seen in a light water electrolysis cell, this would make it harder to see a
> clear difference between the light water cell and a heavy water cell,
> although the difference may pronounced in some cases.  The Pd/D and Pd/H
> experiments often showed an effect in heavy water and none discernible in
> light water.
>
>
It would be nice to get some statistics out of that, any links?


> The FP effect itself for a skeptic
>> does not necessary equate to a nuclear effect. It having an isotopic
>> effect would be quite a strong indication
>> that there is a nuclear effect or am I wrong?
>>
>
> Note that there are many experiments over the years that have shown a
> potential isotope effect in palladium.  I wonder whether another experiment
> along these lines will persuade anyone not already willing to be persuaded.
>
>
People have seen the FP effects more then 100 times although perhaps not
with overall excess energy and clear nuclear evidence. It must appear.
Although it is not reproducible, one can apply statistical methods and do
perfectly good science. Doing a proper statistical test is a really simple
way to deduce very hard proof that cannot be dismissed as wrong
measurement, wrong method or anything else, in a blind test which you find
asy that of 15 samples 1 was with normal water and the others with heavy
water you would have something publishable. Just describing the
experimental setup and say that you got these values blindfolded is strong
case no matter what you did when taken the measurements assuming no fraud
and following the presented procedure. I think that the main problem that
we have not done such a thing is that
  1) Low control about the production of samples
  2) Each functioning sample is of gold value, would you throw it away in a
test?

Regards
Stefan

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe]

On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 11:41 PM, Alain Sepeda wrote:

> it seems National instruments asked such doublinded test in 2012,
> according to the conference of Concezz in Rome (and Brussels)...
>

Do you have any better links, I find this test interesting a.t.m.

Of cause when the risk of fraud and ugly gaming is present, a correct test
is more delicate. The nice thing with a
old time LENR test is that the researchers can be assumed to not perform a
fraud. It's possible to skip the suggested
skeptic group and just make sure the testers are honest about not peeking
the kind of water. Actually believing in LENR+ is much easier if LENR is
proven interesting. So it would certainly help attracting capital and humans
for LENR+

Regards
Stefan

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Roarty, Francis X]

I think the rate of new demos and infrastructure will soon uncover the smoking 
gun, The cork is off the bottle and the genie is already making its presence 
known in more and more labs.. give it a few more months and a couple more 
competitors to announce their claims.. it is the nature of competition now that 
is forcing each new demonstration to reveal more than the previous. Governments 
are equally on the spot trying to dissuade 3rd world nations and even our own 
populace from realizing the potential while having already accumulated the 
technology in secret... should be interesting when corporations harboring top 
secret IP see the competition trying to patent their existing but secret 
technology Pressure is building and I note so is the stock market. .. LMT 
up 39%/12 mos , BA 48%/12 mos ..something is going on! Those kinds of gains 
don't normally persist over a 12 month period.. bull market or no I don't think 
these gains are going to retract and am keeping my money in company stock 
Fingers crossed that these tech corps are planning to exploit their secret IP 
as LENR makes public more and more of what many of us suspect is presently 
hidden under black budget projects.
Fran

From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of 
Alain Sepeda
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 5:41 PM
To: Vortex List
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

it seems National instruments asked such doublinded test in 2012, according to 
the conference of Concezz in Rome (and Brussels)...

about industrial claims, there is similar concern, not of doubleblind, but 
because of suspected fraud by testers.
One big fear of industrialist is when the tester organization is fair like 
MIT/Harwell/caltech and sabotage the test in public.
It is a real problem, since simple honest and open scientist are typically 
suspected of beinf friendly with LENR, like Essen have been with Elforsk test.
It is like the peer-review process, which is accused of being corrupted if 
LMENR paper are commonly accepted in a journal.

Then one idea could be to hire some Mary Yugo, Shanahan, , Taubes, to make the 
test.
But like it happen at MIT you can expect some tricks and frauds, and at least 
like in Caltech or harwell, some deliberate incompetence and bad will...

A solution would be to call profession which is less committed against LENR, 
like engineers, electrochemist, but they will be probably treated as a lower 
species not able to measure heat and electricity (this is why they send Essen 
as physicist, and not an engineering school Junior Enterprise. probably the 
electric measures would have been better)...

And even, calling engineers from a company may raise conflicts of interest, and 
suspicion of conflict of interest.
There is a total lack of honest about that, and I can safely suspect that only 
a very negatively biased team may be accepted as "good" by skeptics, raising 
huge risk of bias, sabotage and fraud.

So we have to find a protocol based on absolute lack of confidence on any side.
It look like a trial, with two attorneys facing a Jury, and public to watch all 
and make revolution if all is manipulated.

My naive idea, inspired by some cryptographic protocol in uncertain environment 
(electronic voting in corrupted environment), is to have two team in the same 
test measuring the same parameters...

I propose for example:

The company measure input power, input voltage, current, waveform, input/output 
fluid temperature, pressure, flow...

the opposing testing team measure the same parameter in cascade (before of 
after).

a third team, the jury observe the discrepancies between the measurement.
If there are difference, there is investigation on the source of the problem, 
helped by the two team.

all is in publicly broadcasted and evidence made public, as soon as a party 
refuse the result.

This eliminate fraud by any camp, even by the jury.
Just have to hope the public is not delusioned (oopt, it is... so it is 
probably hopeless)


2013/8/4 Stefan Israelsson Tampe 
mailto:stefan.ita...@gmail.com>>
Hi all, I wanted to ask you how to best do a test proving LENR.
After following this for a short time I would probably try something like
this,

I would use two teams
1. The testers, people well versed in LENR and know how to make the
classic FP experiment work.

2. The skeptics, a scientific team which task is to observe the testers so that
they follow the rules and performs the tests without any dirty trick.

3. To this we need one or two people, the test managers, to administrate the 
test.

The main rule are that no one is allowed to test the water for knowing if it is 
heavy or not.
(appart for the FP effect)

Before the testers are asked to prepare say N samples, so that we are pretty 
sure to see the F & P effect will appear at least n times under the assumption 
that P(water is heavy) = 1/2

The administrators will randomize the type of water used in

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Eric Walker]

On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe <
stefan.ita...@gmail.com> wrote:


> But I would like to keep the discussion to the original FP experiment.
>

Ah, yes.  Sounds good.  It seems you are pretty familiar with the details,
then.


> There is a reason why heavy water is typically used so I would assume that
> the effect seen is much stronger
> (more frequent, higher energy) then when water is used.
>

This is true, to a certain extent, but there have been questions about
light water since the time of Pons and Fleischmann.  Fleischmann himself
doubted that light water was a suitable control.  If even some activity is
seen in a light water electrolysis cell, this would make it harder to see a
clear difference between the light water cell and a heavy water cell,
although the difference may pronounced in some cases.  The Pd/D and Pd/H
experiments often showed an effect in heavy water and none discernible in
light water.


> The FP effect itself for a skeptic
> does not necessary equate to a nuclear effect. It having an isotopic
> effect would be quite a strong indication
> that there is a nuclear effect or am I wrong?
>

I see where you're coming from.  I'm a hobbyist, so I can only speculate on
what would satisfy an open-minded skeptical scientist.  But if observers
are willing to suspend judgment on what is going on, a clear isotope effect
in a Pd+LiOD system versus a Pd+LiOH system might be interesting to them.
 When people mention the P&F effect, they often have excess heat in mind as
the observable, and this seems like a good one.  But if we're looking for
ironclad proof of a nuclear effect, per se, tritium, charged particles or
characteristic x-rays might be interesting to look at.

Else wouldn't it be so interesting that people would take notice
> of this field?
>

Note that there are many experiments over the years that have shown a
potential isotope effect in palladium.  I wonder whether another experiment
along these lines will persuade anyone not already willing to be persuaded.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Alain Sepeda]

it seems National instruments asked such doublinded test in 2012, according
to the conference of Concezz in Rome (and Brussels)...

about industrial claims, there is similar concern, not of doubleblind, but
because of suspected fraud by testers.
One big fear of industrialist is when the tester organization is fair like
MIT/Harwell/caltech and sabotage the test in public.
It is a real problem, since simple honest and open scientist are typically
suspected of beinf friendly with LENR, like Essen have been with Elforsk
test.
It is like the peer-review process, which is accused of being corrupted if
LMENR paper are commonly accepted in a journal.

Then one idea could be to hire some Mary Yugo, Shanahan, , Taubes, to make
the test.
But like it happen at MIT you can expect some tricks and frauds, and at
least like in Caltech or harwell, some deliberate incompetence and bad
will...

A solution would be to call profession which is less committed against
LENR, like engineers, electrochemist, but they will be probably treated as
a lower species not able to measure heat and electricity (this is why they
send Essen as physicist, and not an engineering school Junior Enterprise.
probably the electric measures would have been better)...

And even, calling engineers from a company may raise conflicts of interest,
and suspicion of conflict of interest.
There is a total lack of honest about that, and I can safely suspect that
only a very negatively biased team may be accepted as "good" by skeptics,
raising huge risk of bias, sabotage and fraud.

So we have to find a protocol based on absolute lack of confidence on any
side.
It look like a trial, with two attorneys facing a Jury, and public to watch
all and make revolution if all is manipulated.

My naive idea, inspired by some cryptographic protocol in uncertain
environment (electronic voting in corrupted environment), is to have two
team in the same test measuring the same parameters...

I propose for example:

The company measure input power, input voltage, current, waveform,
input/output fluid temperature, pressure, flow...

the opposing testing team measure the same parameter in cascade (before of
after).

a third team, the jury observe the discrepancies between the measurement.
If there are difference, there is investigation on the source of the
problem, helped by the two team.

all is in publicly broadcasted and evidence made public, as soon as a party
refuse the result.

This eliminate fraud by any camp, even by the jury.
Just have to hope the public is not delusioned (oopt, it is... so it is
probably hopeless)



2013/8/4 Stefan Israelsson Tampe 

> Hi all, I wanted to ask you how to best do a test proving LENR.
> After following this for a short time I would probably try something like
> this,
>
> I would use two teams
> 1. The testers, people well versed in LENR and know how to make the
> classic FP experiment work.
>
> 2. The skeptics, a scientific team which task is to observe the testers so
> that
> they follow the rules and performs the tests without any dirty trick.
>
> 3. To this we need one or two people, the test managers, to administrate
> the test.
>
> The main rule are that no one is allowed to test the water for knowing if
> it is heavy or not.
> (appart for the FP effect)
>
> Before the testers are asked to prepare say N samples, so that we are
> pretty sure to see the F & P effect will appear at least n times under the
> assumption that P(water is heavy) = 1/2
>
> The administrators will randomize the type of water used in the test and
> hide it for the teams. After all the tests have been performed, one should
> be able to decide among,
>
> H0: the seen effect if it's seen, does not depend on the type of water
> H1: It does depend on the type of water.
>
> Of cause current experience and the help of people well versed in setting
> up statistical tests should be consulted.
>
> Shouldn't this kind of test be possible and wouldn't a rejecting of H0 be
> a amazing fact for any sceptic? It should show
> 1. The FP effect is real and
> 2. The nucleus have to be involved in some way, hence LENR.
>
> WDYT?
>

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Stefan Israelsson Tampe]

Hi Eric,

I'm not up to speed with your emails. The LENR+ type of activities is still
something that if proper tests are
done and affirmative, will be much more interesting, this is clear. But I
would like to keep the discussion to the
original FP experiment.


> I think this would be an interesting test to whether there is a possible
> isotope effect. But there's evidence that LENR is seen in light water/light
> hydrogen systems as well.  So if the test concerns the *existence* of LENR,
> rather than a parameter that affects it, I think another control should be
> sought out.
>

To decide here one need to have a clue about,

P(FP-effect | water)  and P(FP-effect | heavy water)

There is a reason why heavy water is typically used so I would assume that
the effect seen is much stronger
(more frequent, higher energy) then when water is used. If the frequencies
are the same, I would guess that
we could measure the strength to a number and use that in stead in a test.
The FP effect itself for a skeptic
does not necessary equate to a nuclear effect. It having an isotopic effect
would be quite a strong indication
that there is a nuclear effect or am I wrong? Else wouldn't it be so
interesting that people would take notice
of this field?

Cheers!

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Eric Walker]

I wrote:

So if the test concerns the *existence* of LENR, rather than a parameter
> that affects it, I think another control should be sought out.  Whatever
> that other control is (input power turned off, a different substrate or
> cathode, or some other property), could be varied in the manner you suggest
> to rule out a null hypothesis.
>

I should clarify -- there are experiments that seek to establish the
existence of LENR (something the mainstream physicists still have yet to
convince themselves of).  There are experiments to look for the mechanism
behind LENR, on the assumption that it exists.  And there are possible
experiments to assess whether a company such as Leonardo Corp. or Defkalion
have a working device that produces more energy that goes into it, possibly
due to LENR.  Perhaps you have the last kind of experiment in mind.  In
that case, a control that seems promising would be to use argon in place of
hydrogen, without making assumptions about whether LENR is caused by light
hydrogen, deuterium, or a combination of both.

(I misspoke when I said that turning off the input power would be a
suitable control.)

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Test to show LENR?

[Eric Walker]

Hi,

On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Stefan Israelsson Tampe <
stefan.ita...@gmail.com> wrote:

H0: the seen effect if it's seen, does not depend on the type of water
>  H1: It does depend on the type of water.
>

I think this would be an interesting test to whether there is a possible
isotope effect. But there's evidence that LENR is seen in light water/light
hydrogen systems as well.  So if the test concerns the *existence* of LENR,
rather than a parameter that affects it, I think another control should be
sought out.  Whatever that other control is (input power turned off, a
different substrate or cathode, or some other property), could be varied in
the manner you suggest to rule out a null hypothesis.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:test

[Axil Axil]

I see you


On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Peter Gluck  wrote:

> Vortex, are you down?
>
> --
> Dr. Peter Gluck
> Cluj, Romania
> http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
>

Re: [Vo]:test

[John Berry]

I'll pong even though you didn't ping.
Maybe I should just take a shower ;)

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 2:04 PM, William Beaty  wrote:

>
>
> (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
> William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>
>

Re: [Vo]:test

[Peter Gluck]

OK Bill


On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 5:04 AM, William Beaty  wrote:

>
>
> (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
> William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>
>


-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:test

[Alexander Hollins]

a c c d true false false true antidisetablishmentarianism , because
sailing, travel, and monster stories were popular, thus Moby Dick was a
preemptive commercial success.


On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 7:04 PM, William Beaty  wrote:

>
>
> (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
> William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>
>

Re: [Vo]:test

[Terry Blanton]

Thanks, Bill!

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 10:04 PM, William Beaty  wrote:
>
>
> (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
> William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>

Re: [Vo]:test

[Jed Rothwell]

Test response. Message received. Other messages not posting.

Re: [Vo]:test

[Alan Fletcher]

The list got too skeptical ?   Demanded two-factor authorization?



=8-(

[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Test message reproducing the – problem

[Jed Rothwell]

James Bowery  wrote:

Yep.
>
> Thank you, world's richest man.
>

Probably not Microsoft's fault. But hey, let't blame 'em! They are guilty
of a lot of things.

- Jed

[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Test message reproducing the – problem

[James Bowery]

Yep.

Thank you, world's richest man.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:27 AM, James Bowery  wrote:

> A test response.
>
>
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:26 AM, James Bowery  wrote:
>
>> This is a test to determine whether the problem with response prefix
>> explosion was caused by funny "windows" characters such as  –
>>
>> which appeared in the title of the prior thread.
>>
>
>

[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Test message reproducing the – problem

[James Bowery]

A test response.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:26 AM, James Bowery  wrote:

> This is a test to determine whether the problem with response prefix
> explosion was caused by funny "windows" characters such as  –
>
> which appeared in the title of the prior thread.
>

Re: [Vo]:Test thread heading

[James Bowery]

The reason I said it is at your end is that when I responded to the same
threads, no explosion happened whereas when you responded, it did happen.
 At least that's the way it appeared at this end.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Nope. No recursive explosion of Re: Re: Re:
>
> It must be something like the dash in the title. The Eskimo.com mail
> system is bonkers.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test thread heading

[Jed Rothwell]

Nope. No recursive explosion of Re: Re: Re:

It must be something like the dash in the title. The Eskimo.com mail system
is bonkers.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test thread heading

[Jed Rothwell]

Test response. Let's see if James Bowery is right and this is something at
my end.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:test, is it alive?

[Terry Blanton]

It has been down for a couple of days.

I monitor the eskimo yahoo group and did not see any notice.  Maybe
they didn't give one?  :-)

On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 3:07 PM, William Beaty  wrote:
>
> eskimo.com ISP is transferring the software to a new machine.  Something
> went wrong?
>
>
>
> (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
> William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>

Re: [Vo]:test, is it alive?

[Peter Gluck]

nothing observed


On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 10:07 PM, William Beaty  wrote:

>
> eskimo.com ISP is transferring the software to a new machine.  Something
> went wrong?
>
>
>
> (( ( (  (   ((O))   )  ) ) )))
> William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>
>


-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:test massage

[Terry Blanton]

the list was hiccuping earlier

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> a little to the right
>

Re: [Vo]:test

[Terry Blanton]

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 10:01 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson
 wrote:

> BTW, I noticed that Google is upgrading "docs.google.com" to 
> "drive.google.com"

Good movie:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780504/

Better movie:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1502404/

Hot movie:  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1071875/

T

Re: [Vo]:test

[OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson]

>From Terry.

> Post it in docs.google.com

I finally posted my scribblings under the subject thread: "Groking
CoAM, Kepler and Rossi" as a txt file. Nothing appears to have gotten
terribly garbled.

BTW, I noticed that Google is upgrading "docs.google.com" to "drive.google.com"

Under new management.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

RE: [Vo]:test

[MarkI-ZeroPoint]

Do a screen capture of the equations and simply attach that as a JPG to your
vortex posting... if black text on white, it should compress to a fairly
small JPG. 

-Original Message-
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 3:42 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:test

Post it in docs.google.com

T

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 6:15 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
 wrote:
> Drat!
>
> I'm trying to send a post in HTML format because it contains some font 
> changes to make it easier to read some formulas. I got it down to 
> under 40k but Vortex-l still doesn't like it.
>
> Oh, well... I'll send it in raw text format.
>
> Screw the fancy fonts!
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>
>

Re: [Vo]:test

[Terry Blanton]

Post it in docs.google.com

T

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 6:15 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
 wrote:
> Drat!
>
> I'm trying to send a post in HTML format because it contains some font
> changes to make it easier to read some formulas. I got it down to under 40k
> but Vortex-l still doesn't like it.
>
> Oh, well... I'll send it in raw text format.
>
> Screw the fancy fonts!
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>
>

RE: [Vo]:test

[OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

Drat!

I'm trying to send a post in HTML format because it contains some font
changes to make it easier to read some formulas. I got it down to under 40k
but Vortex-l still doesn't like it.

Oh, well... I'll send it in raw text format.

Screw the fancy fonts!

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:test

[Terry Blanton]

Eskimo.com is replacing the mail server with new h/w and s/w.  Some
hiccups have been experienced of late; but, patience will be a virtue.

T

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:56 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> No, try again.
>
> T
>
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:47 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
>  wrote:
>> Is this getting through?
>>
>>
>>
>> svj

Re: [Vo]:test

[Terry Blanton]

No, try again.

T

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:47 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
 wrote:
> Is this getting through?
>
>
>
> svj

Re: [Vo]:Test

[Terry Blanton]

Watch out where the huskies go and don't you eat that yellow snow!

T

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Nanook  wrote:
>
> Testing list processing.
>
> -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
>  Eskimo North Linux Friendly Internet Access, Shell Accounts, and Hosting.
>   Knowledgable human assistance, not telephone trees or script readers.
>  See our web site: http://www.eskimo.com/ (206) 812-0051 or (800) 246-6874.
>

Re: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[Иванов Михаил]

test passed!

Re: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[Axil Axil]

Check out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langmuir_probe


Langmuir probe


A *Langmuir probe* is a device named after Nobel
Prizewinning physicist
Irving
Langmuir , used to determine
the electron temperature, electron density, and electric potential of a
plasma . It works by
inserting one or more electrodes into a plasma, with a constant or
time-varying electric potential between the various electrodes or between
them and the surrounding vessel. The measured currents and potentials in
this system allow the determination of the physical properties of the
plasma.

Then see

http://www.physics.uiowa.edu/~rmerlino/APS_05_dust_MS.pdf

*CHARGING OF DUST IN A NEGATIVE ION PLASMA*
**
*For a general overview of dusty plasma look at*
**

http://wsx.lanl.gov/RSX/PPSS_2006/lectures/Goree_LANL_PPSS07.pdf
**
*Fundamentals of Dusty Plasmas*

* *

If you need more

Google the key words:

* *

langmuir probe carbon nanotube density



Cheers:  Axil






On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:

> **
> Hey Gang,  Is anyone here aware of an easy test for the presence of Carbon
> Nanotubes?  "Easy" being simple and inexpensive and accessible to ordinary
> folks without expensive equipment.  A Test that would quantify the amount
> of carbon nanotubes would be better than simply telling me that they are
> present.
>
> I am testing my nanotube reactor but I am unsure how much nanotubes I am
> creating if any.
>
> Is there a chemical out there that would react exclusively with nanotubes
> only.  Alternatively, a chemical that would strip away the carbon soot and
> ordinary carbon particles and leave behind only carbon nanotubes would work
> also.  I am aware that there is a CNT purification process, but a google
> search reveal nothing within my reach or capability.
>
>
> Jojo
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[Иванов Михаил]

test passed!

RE: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[MarkI-ZeroPoint]

That was helpful...
-m

-Original Message-
From: "Иванов Михаил" [mailto:i-...@yandex.ru] 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes


test passed!

RE: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.]

I don't know about nanotubes, but b-fullerene is soluable in something easy
and it turns it purpleish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullerene
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19655724
  -Original Message-
  From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com]
  Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 12:53 PM
  To: Vortex
  Subject: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes


  Hey Gang,  Is anyone here aware of an easy test for the presence of Carbon
Nanotubes?  "Easy" being simple and inexpensive and accessible to ordinary
folks without expensive equipment.  A Test that would quantify the amount of
carbon nanotubes would be better than simply telling me that they are
present.

  I am testing my nanotube reactor but I am unsure how much nanotubes I am
creating if any.

  Is there a chemical out there that would react exclusively with nanotubes
only.  Alternatively, a chemical that would strip away the carbon soot and
ordinary carbon particles and leave behind only carbon nanotubes would work
also.  I am aware that there is a CNT purification process, but a google
search reveal nothing within my reach or capability.


  Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Test for the Existence of Carbon Nanotubes

[Иванов Михаил]

test passed!

Re: [Vo]:test

[Chemical Engineer]

Peter,

Received

Thanks!

On Saturday, June 2, 2012, Peter Gluck wrote:

> test
>
> --
> Dr. Peter Gluck
> Cluj, Romania
> http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
>
>

Re: [Vo]:test, ignore

[Daniel Rocha]

I cannot ignore. I'M IN LOVE!

2012/4/30 William Beaty 

>
> yet another test
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint]

Noone^2 wrote:

"I not a very jovial person."

 

Yaaa think?  J

 

Whatever the baggage you're carrying around with you, don't you think it's
time to let it go?  It does nothing by make one's life miserable and full of
drama.

-m

 

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Vorl Bek]

Please take this to vortexb.

RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

Shoot! I have to respond to this.

 

NOONE, PLEASE CHECK YOUR PERSONAL RETURN EMAIL SETTINGS WHEN YOU RESPOND TO
POSTS IN VORTEX-L. EVERYONE WHO ATTEMPTS TO RESPOND TO YOUR VORTEX POSTS ARE
CONSTANTLY IN DANGER OF SENDING EMAIL TO YOUR PERSONAL EMAIL ACCOUNT, NOT TO
VORTEX-L. WE HAVE TO MANUALLY OVERIDE YOUR CURRENT REPLY SETTINGS. PLEASE
FIX THIS!

 

I realize we are speaking hypothetically here. I also realize I'm speaking
to the equivalent of a brick wall. But alas, that is the cross I must bear.

 

> The fact is if I was in a situation where I was an inventor 

> and my technology was stolen, money would be the last thing

> on my mind. If I was forced to accept money, I would work

> with lawyers to try and find the best way to use it against

> the company that stole my technology. I would not care how

> much I had to benefit, or the world had to benefit.

 

So, what this all really boils down to is the fact that it's about your
rights and your principals. This concept you've come up with concerning your
rights and principals are so important to you that you really don't give a
crap what happens to the world - just as long as you don't end up
prostituting your rights and principles. Well, I can appreciate your
principals, but only to a certain extent...  The rest of it just turns into
a horrible Greek tragedy.

 

> I am in the real world. I realize I am not a law expert, but

> at the same time I know what is right and what is wrong. If

> I had a technology that was stolen, I would simply strive to

> do anything and everything to prevent the other company from

> being able to use my technology. I might fail, and they

> might be allowed to sell the technology. But I would do

> everything (that is peaceful and non-violent) to hinder that

> company for the rest of my life. Hopefully, I would at least

> slow down the proliferation of the stolen technology.

 

In other words, your "rights' and "principals" are so important to you that
you really don't give a crap what happens to the world for which you and the
rest of us live in, as you go about defending your "rights" and
"principals". If your "peaceful" attempts to hinder the manufacture of
something that would benefit the world are realized, you don't consider how
potentially violent that could turn out to be for everyone being prevented
from benefiting from the invention?

 

I wonder what Jesus would have to say about that?

 

> Sadly, you and others seem to think the needs of the many

> are more important than the rights of the individual. That

> is how our sickening world works these days (for the most

> part). However, I hope that will change in the future. The

> rights of the individual must be protected at all cost,

> because otherwise life becomes meaningless. If I do not have

> my rights and freedoms protected, I might as well not be

> alive.

 

If I had an amazing invention that I knew would benefit the world, I most
certainly would want to profit from it. As much as I could! However, I hope
I would also weigh my own personal individual rights & principals with the
rights & principals of the rest of the world. I'm not the only person on
this planet who has rights and principals that need to be respected, you
know. If someone stole my money making invention, I'd go to court, just as
you would. However, in my case if it was becoming clear to me that it would
be unlikely that I'd get my invention back I would seek to get the matter
settled through some kind of a financial compensation / arrangement. Since
it is likely that I would have sufficient evidence to prove that I deserve
SOME kind of compensation for my contribution to society, I suspect a
financial arrangement would eventually be worked out. Why would I want to,
as you seem to want to do, spend the rest of my life trying to turn the life
of my competitor "enemy" into what I hope will be a bloody living hell for
the rest of his life...all on "principal" of protecting my personal
"rights""? Quite frankly, I think you are so worried about not having any
principals or rights at all in which to hang your hat on that you are
willing to sacrifice the rights and principals of rest of the world, just so
you can prove to yourself that you actually DO have rights and principals
that you stand by. Have you so little sense of self-confidence in yourself
that this is the only kind of self-destructive action you can conjure up -
all in the name of proving to yourself that you do have rights and
principals?

 

Again, what would Jesus have to say about that? What would Jesus have to say
about focusing all of your actions on the need to protect your own "rights"
to such a maniacal degree that it ends up trashing the "rights" of your
neighbor.

 

Alas, I realize this response of mine is futile. Talking to noone noone
about "rights" is like talking to a brick wall. All I can say is that I sure
don't want to live by noone's principals. By my "religion" that would result
in WAY TOO m

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Eric Walker]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Eric Walker  wrote:
>
> I personally think the patent system is fatally flawed, and I haven't the
> slightest sympathy for the idea of "intellectual property."
>

The conversation has moved on, but I should moderate the statement above, a
little.  I can think of some situations in which an injustice would be done
to an inventor.  An example is an inventor who puts a lot of his or her own
personal time and money into an invention and in the process discovers a
breakthrough, and then a better prepared competitor comes along and
implements the idea without having to have put up the initial costs.  So I
disagree with my earlier statement that IP law is inherently illegitimate.
 But I'm often struck by defenses of it that go beyond "let's not do
anything rash."

Creativity primarily involves putting a new spin on ideas that other people
came up with.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Eric Walker]

I think your reply address isn't configured to point to vortex-l.


> I hope Defkalion's technology is original. It very well may be. But if it
> is not, it is a shame that they did not simply pay Rossi earlier in 2011 so
> they could continue working together. Instead, if 2 or 3 is true, Rossi may
> be able to use legal means to stop them from using the tech without
> permission.
>

Regardless of whether Defkalion's technology is original or not, a series
of positive results would be a beautiful day for mankind.

Andrea Rossi has submitted patent applications and has obtained at least
one patent.  If he has been forthright with his applications, he will have
recourse to legal protection for any potential infringement.

I personally think the patent system is fatally flawed, and I haven't the
slightest sympathy for the idea of "intellectual property."  All kinds of
things are patented that you could have thought up yourself, and in the
process legal impediments are introduced into the creation of new
technology without which the process would be purely creative.  The system
is set up to permit large corporations to raise high barriers to entry, and
no legitimacy beyond that of money underlies the patent battles and the
patent trolls that one sees these days, because if you have enough money
you can purchase the patent bundles and hire the lawyers to enter into that
whole game.

The only part that ethics plays in any of this in my opinion relates to
one's desire to be law abiding, even when some areas of it are inherently
illegitimate.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

Here is a good example of someone who had their rights violated.

http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/676150--man-shocked-by-arrest-after-daughter-draws-picture-of-gun-at-school

This guy had his rights violated in a number of different ways. He was not a 
criminal. Those that were involved in his abduction and sexual assault are the 
criminals.

If a random person abducts a person and strips them naked it is a sexual 
assault. If a policeman does it for NO VALID REASON when no crime has been 
committed, it is a sexual assault too. There is no difference whatsoever.


I would have not left the police station, and would have demanded to stay in 
the cell until everyone involved in my ABDUCTION was put in the cell instead.

If they can arrest an individual for no valid reason, then logically that 
individual should be able to request to stay in their cell until the issue is 
settled. 


Of course due to the fact that the courts in this nation are biased against the 
rights of individuals, the man would probably have gotten in more trouble. But 
it would have been worth it. Even if his family suffered, he lost his job, or 
if his family got broken apart, it would have been worth it.

If people do not stand up for their rights now, their children my end up in 
even worse situations in the future. What if his daughter one day got arrested 
for her daughter drawing an image of a vitamin supplement bottle (some are 
pushing for supplements to be regulated like drugs) such as Co Enzyme Q10? It 
could happen.

If people don't start PEACEFULLY and NON-VIOLENTLY start demanding their rights 
be protected then before long we will have no rights at all.

This is why I want space exploration to happen ASAP. I am hoping some colony 
worlds might be a bit saner than our planet is today.

However, you and others will probably say the school and police were justified, 
because it was in the name of public safety or something. Well, as far as I 
know, the 2nd amendment is still in the constitution. 


If Rossi's rights have been violated by any company then he needs to stand up 
for himself. By doing so, he will also be standing up for all future inventors. 






 From: Jed Rothwell 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

noone noone  wrote:
 
If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight 
against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts 
that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the 
activities of the party that stole my technology.

1. You can't talk in court. Only your lawyer can, and it has to be about the 
case.

2. They don't care what you use the money for.


I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement.

It would not be up to you. You can't make up laws as you go along.

 
I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, 
and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper.

Judges don't care what you think. You don't have to actually sign the paper for 
this to go into effect.

Bear in mind also that these are civil suits. Jail sentences and the police 
play no role in them. In that sense it is quite different from stealing actual 
property.


The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world 
that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are 
not as horrible as you portray.
>

This is the real world. You do not appear to know much about business, 
contracts and civil lawsuits. There are good reasons why we do things the way 
we do. You should not assume that laws and customs that have been in place for 
centuries are "horrible." Sometimes they are dysfunctional or obsolete, but we 
have to be careful about changing long-standing institutions. The conservative 
attitude is justified. In this case, the system has protect the interests of 
customers, and it has to promote technological progress. The system cannot take 
into account only the intellectual property rights of the inventor, ignoring 
all other factors.

If Defkalion succeeds I expect it will eventually benefit Rossi tremendously. 
He will make hundreds of millions of dollars. Left to his own devices, he would 
probably not make any money. I doubt that Defkalion has taken anything from 
him, but even if they have, he will probably get more from them than he could 
ever earn by himself.

Don't fret about any of this. It will probably work out well for everyone. 
There will be barrels of money. Enough for everyone. In 10 years the dispute 
will be forgotten.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

Hello Jed,
Once again, everyone points out there will be plenty of money for everyone.

Everyone is obsessed with money.

I am not. 

The fact is if I was in a situation where I was an inventor and my technology 
was stolen, money would be the last thing on my mind. If I was forced to accept 
money, I would work with lawyers to try and find the best way to use it against 
the company that stole my technology. I would not care how much I had to 
benefit, or the world had to benefit.

I am in the real world. I realize I am not a law expert, but at the same time I 
know what is right and what is wrong. If I had a technology that was stolen, I 
would simply strive to do anything and everything to prevent the other company 
from being able to use my technology. I might fail, and they might be allowed 
to sell the technology. But I would do everything (that is peaceful and 
non-violent) to hinder that company for the rest of my life. Hopefully, I would 
at least slow down the proliferation of the stolen technology.

Once again, I am speaking about a hypothetical stolen technology.

Sadly, you and others seem to think the needs of the many are more important 
than the rights of the individual. That is how our sickening world works these 
days (for the most part). However, I hope that will change in the future. The 
rights of the individual must be protected at all cost, because otherwise life 
becomes meaningless. If I do not have my rights and freedoms protected, I might 
as well not be alive.

I do not agree about Rossi. One thing about Rossi is that he never gives up. He 
is also a very hard worker. I think he will be successful. 







 From: Jed Rothwell 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

noone noone  wrote:
 
If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight 
against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts 
that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the 
activities of the party that stole my technology.

1. You can't talk in court. Only your lawyer can, and it has to be about the 
case.

2. They don't care what you use the money for.


I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement.

It would not be up to you. You can't make up laws as you go along.

 
I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, 
and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper.

Judges don't care what you think. You don't have to actually sign the paper for 
this to go into effect.

Bear in mind also that these are civil suits. Jail sentences and the police 
play no role in them. In that sense it is quite different from stealing actual 
property.


The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world 
that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are 
not as horrible as you portray.
>

This is the real world. You do not appear to know much about business, 
contracts and civil lawsuits. There are good reasons why we do things the way 
we do. You should not assume that laws and customs that have been in place for 
centuries are "horrible." Sometimes they are dysfunctional or obsolete, but we 
have to be careful about changing long-standing institutions. The conservative 
attitude is justified. In this case, the system has protect the interests of 
customers, and it has to promote technological progress. The system cannot take 
into account only the intellectual property rights of the inventor, ignoring 
all other factors.

If Defkalion succeeds I expect it will eventually benefit Rossi tremendously. 
He will make hundreds of millions of dollars. Left to his own devices, he would 
probably not make any money. I doubt that Defkalion has taken anything from 
him, but even if they have, he will probably get more from them than he could 
ever earn by himself.

Don't fret about any of this. It will probably work out well for everyone. 
There will be barrels of money. Enough for everyone. In 10 years the dispute 
will be forgotten.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

I think there are critical aspects of Rossi's technology that are totally novel 
to cold fusion. Those are the ones that allow him to produce a practical amount 
of heat when no one else (that I am aware) has been able to do so. If these 
critical pieces of intellectual property have been stolen (I do not know if 
they have been or not) then I think he should do whatever it takes for him to 
stop any other company from using it without his permission.

I realize IP issues are complicated. But in Rossi's case there is SOMETHING 
that is allowing him to produce huge amounts of heat. I think this is his 
catalyst and perhaps the specific preperation and enrichment of the nickel 
powder. I doubt that anyone could say that they own these aspects of his 
technology, because otherwise I think they would have tried to bring about a 
robust cold fusion technology years ago.

This is not a joke. I am being serious. I not a very jovial person. I do NOT 
know if Rossi's intellectual property has been stolen or not. But from what I 
have read I cannot totally dismiss the possibility.

The fact is I've already hurt myself and my family with decisions I have made 
that were based on principles. I'm sitting here unable to get the medical care 
(at least not without going through countless hoops) I need (nothing life 
threatening) because of my decisions. It is also the reason why I'm single and 
never married. I refused to compromise on my morals, even when the so called 
"Christian" women were willing to.


I'm not a saint. I'm not perfect. I also do not claim that I've always stuck to 
every principle 100% of the time. I sin and I have to ask forgiveness. But I do 
my best to live an ethical life. If that hurts me financially or otherwise, I 
try to realize that you can't take with you anything when you are dead. You can 
only hope that you lived as ethically and morally as possible.




 From: David Roberson 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

I think that you should consider that Rossi and many before him are using 
technology that was derived by others.  It is seldom as simple as you seem to 
think when IP is being judicated.  I recall when the company I worked with at 
the time as well as its main competitor would periodically have a patent 
battle.  We all knew the game:  each company would list a number of patents 
that they held which they considered violated.  After a few lawyers were paid 
off, both sides would agree to allow the others to proceed with their 
production.
 
It is a joke to think that Rossi does not owe his design to the shoulders upon 
which he stands.  Look at all of the patents before him if you really think 
that his hands are totally clean.
 
You seem to think too much in black and white when business is always handled 
in shades of gray.  And I have a hard time believing that you really would 
rather see damage to everyone, including your family, in order to stand up for 
a principle that is not valid.
 
Please explain how Rossi can be sure that his IP has been stolen by anyone?  
The only way that a determination of this sort can be handled is after an 
extensive court battle where all of the important conversations, any technology 
transfers, or other happening are examined.  Are you knowledgeable of details 
that we have not been a party to?  You do recall Rossi making claims that DGT 
does not have any knowledge from him don't you?  What more do you require?
 
This entire discussion is a bit silly and is most likely someone's idea of a 
joke.
 
Dave


-Original Message-
From: noone noone 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time


I am not an expert at law, but I would strive to stop someone from selling my 
technology without permission even if it was a futile battle.

If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight 
against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts 
that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the 
activities of the party that stole my technology. For example, I would make 
products and give them away to stop people from purchasing products from the 
other company. Or I would wage a PR campaign against the other company. Also, a 
possibility would be to use the money to hire more lawyers to make the life of 
the company as miserable as possible.


I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. I 
would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and 
quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. He may end up awarding the 
technology ownership fully to the other company, but at least I would have 
stuck up for what was right.

The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a worl

RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Jarold McWilliams]

Do you really think that if the U.S. government had the power to forbid 
implementation of cold fusion, that they wouldn't realize a cold fusion device 
is headed for the market?

 



From: oldja...@hotmail.com
To: hoyt.stea...@gmail.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:47:00 -0500





Do you really think that if the U.S. government had the power to forbid 
implementation of cold fusion, that they wouldn't realize a cold fusion device 
is headed for the market?
 




From: hoyt.stea...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 19:25:15 -0700


 
As I recall, a patent may be denied ( and possibly implementation forbidden ) 
if it would be substantially disruptive to the US economy ( that seems to imply 
that the really great inventions are suppressed :-( ). 
 
A good strategy then may be to get your stuff on the market before the gov't 
realizes what just happened.
 
 
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:35_U.S.C._181:Secrecy_of_certain_inventions_and_withholding_of_patent
 
Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona US
 
 

-Original Messag
[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] 
 e-
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:36 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time


noone noone  wrote:
  



We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. 
We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen 
intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling 
any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's 
IP without permission.)


That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and 
patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. 
If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of 
the profits from the loser. No one  "stops X from selling" except when X is a 
minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on 
consumers.[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.]  ... 


- Jed

  

RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Jarold McWilliams]

Do you really think that if the U.S. government had the power to forbid 
implementation of cold fusion, that they wouldn't realize a cold fusion device 
is headed for the market?
 



From: hoyt.stea...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 19:25:15 -0700



 
As I recall, a patent may be denied ( and possibly implementation forbidden ) 
if it would be substantially disruptive to the US economy ( that seems to imply 
that the really great inventions are suppressed :-( ). 
 
A good strategy then may be to get your stuff on the market before the gov't 
realizes what just happened.
 
 
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:35_U.S.C._181:Secrecy_of_certain_inventions_and_withholding_of_patent
 
Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona US
 
 

-Original Messag
[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] 
 e-
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:36 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time


noone noone  wrote:
  



We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. 
We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen 
intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling 
any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's 
IP without permission.)


That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and 
patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. 
If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of 
the profits from the loser. No one  "stops X from selling" except when X is a 
minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on 
consumers.[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.]  ... 


- Jed

  

RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.]

As I recall, a patent may be denied ( and possibly implementation
forbidden ) if it would be substantially disruptive to the US economy ( that
seems to imply that the really great inventions are suppressed :-( ).

A good strategy then may be to get your stuff on the market before the gov't
realizes what just happened.


http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:35_U.S.C._181:Secrecy_of_certain_inve
ntions_and_withholding_of_patent

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona US


  -Original Messag
  [Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.]
   e-
  From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com]
  Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:36 PM
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time


  noone noone  wrote:

We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual
property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have
stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from
selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by
studying Rossi's IP without permission.)


  That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil
lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the
court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with
a large share of the profits from the loser. No one  "stops X from selling"
except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no
impact on consumers.[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.]  ...


  - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Harry Veeder]

> 
> From: Harry Veeder 
> To: noone noone 
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 3:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:03 PM, noone noone 
> wrote:

>>
>> If I was an inventor who had my tech stolen by Microsoft or Apple, I would
>> demand the same thing. Even if it meant every single iPAD or iPhone that
>> used my technology being taken off the market. If it bankrupts the other
>> company having to pay back all their customers, so be it.
>
> If they didn't stop would you like to see them thrown in prison?
>
> Harry


On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 5:37 PM, noone noone  wrote:
> I think so.

If you are a Christian then you should know that forgiving debts and
transgression is actually good for your soul.

harry

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[David Roberson]

I think that you should consider that Rossi and many before him are using 
technology that was derived by others.  It is seldom as simple as you seem to 
think when IP is being judicated.  I recall when the company I worked with at 
the time as well as its main competitor would periodically have a patent 
battle.  We all knew the game:  each company would list a number of patents 
that they held which they considered violated.  After a few lawyers were paid 
off, both sides would agree to allow the others to proceed with their 
production.

It is a joke to think that Rossi does not owe his design to the shoulders upon 
which he stands.  Look at all of the patents before him if you really think 
that his hands are totally clean.

You seem to think too much in black and white when business is always handled 
in shades of gray.  And I have a hard time believing that you really would 
rather see damage to everyone, including your family, in order to stand up for 
a principle that is not valid.

Please explain how Rossi can be sure that his IP has been stolen by anyone?  
The only way that a determination of this sort can be handled is after an 
extensive court battle where all of the important conversations, any technology 
transfers, or other happening are examined.  Are you knowledgeable of details 
that we have not been a party to?  You do recall Rossi making claims that DGT 
does not have any knowledge from him don't you?  What more do you require?

This entire discussion is a bit silly and is most likely someone's idea of a 
joke.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: noone noone 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time



I am not an expert at law, but I would strive to stop someone from selling my 
technology without permission even if it was a futile battle.


If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight 
against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts 
that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the 
activities of the party that stole my technology. For example, I would make 
products and give them away to stop people from purchasing products from the 
other company. Or I would wage a PR campaign against the other company. Also, a 
possibility would be to use the money to hire more lawyers to make the life of 
the company as miserable as possible.



I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. I 
would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and 
quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. He may end up awarding the 
technology ownership fully to the other company, but at least I would have 
stuck up for what was right.


The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world 
that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are 
not as horrible as you portray.








From: Jed Rothwell 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time



noone noone  wrote:
 

We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. 
We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen 
intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling 
any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's 
IP without permission.)




That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and 
patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. 
If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of 
the profits from the loser. No one  "stops X from selling" except when X is a 
minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers.


They never shut down an industry or a major producer in such cases. When IBM 
and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides continue to 
manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court or the judge 
rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in the meanwhile, 
because that would hurt other companies and consumers.


There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the 17th 
century.


This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do not 
allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If Rossi does 
not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon be allowed to 
make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge will force him to 
do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license agreement, or tell the 
lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that "big companies" can "buy up a 
patent" and prevent important technology from being developed. This is a myth. 
As I said, the courts will not allow it. They have ruled that the patent syst

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Jed Rothwell]

noone noone  wrote:


> If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight
> against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the
> courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop
> the activities of the party that stole my technology.
>

1. You can't talk in court. Only your lawyer can, and it has to be about
the case.

2. They don't care what you use the money for.


I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement.
>

It would not be up to you. You can't make up laws as you go along.



> I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn,
> hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper.
>

Judges don't care what you think. You don't have to actually sign the paper
for this to go into effect.

Bear in mind also that these are civil suits. Jail sentences and the police
play no role in them. In that sense it is quite different from stealing
actual property.


The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a
> world that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of
> things are not as horrible as you portray.
>

This is the real world. You do not appear to know much about business,
contracts and civil lawsuits. There are good reasons why we do things the
way we do. You should not assume that laws and customs that have been in
place for centuries are "horrible." Sometimes they are dysfunctional or
obsolete, but we have to be careful about changing long-standing
institutions. The conservative attitude is justified. In this case, the
system has protect the interests of customers, and it has to promote
technological progress. The system cannot take into account only the
intellectual property rights of the inventor, ignoring all other factors.

If Defkalion succeeds I expect it will eventually benefit Rossi
tremendously. He will make hundreds of millions of dollars. Left to his own
devices, he would probably not make any money. I doubt that Defkalion has
taken anything from him, but even if they have, he will probably get more
from them than he could ever earn by himself.

Don't fret about any of this. It will probably work out well for everyone.
There will be barrels of money. Enough for everyone. In 10 years the
dispute will be forgotten.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Jarold McWilliams]

If your definition of Christianity is following every line of the bible, than I 
am not a Christian.  But the bible itself says that the only requirement for 
Christianity is believing God sent someone down to die for our sins.  By this 
definition, I am a Christian.  I actually don't give a crap what the bible 
says.  It's just a collection of made up stories.  Why didn't Jesus come from 
China, India, or even America?  There are more people in other areas of the 
world.  And why should I believe in Christianity just because other people or 
my parents do?  Most people believe in things that I disagree with like a 
democracy being the best form of government.  If the majority of people are 
wrong about that, can't they be wrong about Christianity as well?  You're 
saying you can't have values if you are not a Christian?  Isn't cold fusion a 
gift from God, something God created, so Rossi would actually be stealing by 
hoarding this technology.  Doesn't the bible say to help thy neighbor.  Rossi 
has the chance to help millions of people, but he would rather hoard all of the 
wealth to himself.  So, he would be going against his values at the same time 
he is sticking with his values.  Most people want freedom because they think it 
will lead to a better life.  If there was a situation where everyone knew 
freedom would lead to a worse life but their "values" would be upheld, no one, 
except maybe you, would want freedom.
 



Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:19:26 -0800
From: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com



Of course other people can have different values, but it does not mean their 
values are the correct ones. There can only be one correct set of values for 
humanity when it comes to right and wrong. 



If you are for an open marriage, you are obviously not a Christian. I think you 
have the right to have an open marriage and the right to call yourself a 
Christian if you want. But I will state for the record that according to the 
Bible an open marriage is absolutely wrong, and immoral. However, as a small 
govt. advocate I would openly stand up for your right to be in an open 
marriage, or be married to a dozen women if you want. But at the same time I 
would say that you were living an immoral life that I thought was wrong.



In my opinion, rights and freedoms are not to make your life better. They are 
about keeping you free. Being free may not always be easy or a good experience. 
Expressing your freedom can get you killed in many areas of the world. However, 
we are all born with certain rights and freedoms that come from our creator. We 
have to stand up for those rights and freedoms. Of course people have the 
choice not to. If they do not stand up for ALL their rights I think they have 
less moral grounds to complain when someone violates a certain right. For 
example, those who have no problem with inventors having their technology 
stolen if it benefits the planet have no moral authority to compalin if an evil 
person steals from them. Theft is theft.









From: Jarold McWilliams 
To: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time






Can't someone have different values than you?  I am all for open marriage.  How 
am I not a Christian if I favor open marriage?  The only purpose of having 
rights and freedoms is to make your life better.  If life is better without 
freedoms, I don't want freedom.  According to you, don't people have the right 
to support war if they want to?  Do people have the right to sell themselves 
into slavery?  Believe it or not, I'm actually more of an outcast than you are, 
especially on the internet.  I don't care what people think about me, either.  
I don't like to call people names on the internet, but you are making it very 
hard:).
 




Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:57:43 -0800
From: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com



One, the fact is that when it comes to me standing up for my principles, I 
don't care what people think about me. I would rather they think favorably of 
me, but if they do not I am not going to let it change my behavior. I have been 
called all sorts of names for supporting my various beliefs, but I kept on 
going. I kept on going when it made me an outcast. I eventually embraced it and 
realized that when people react strongly against you, that is a sign you were 
bold enough in your declaration of values. If no one opposes you or reacts 
negatively, you were either preaching to the choir, or cowardly in your 
presentation.


Secondly, when it comes to divorce and marriage, I think the moment someone has 
sexual relations with someone who is not the spouse the marriage is broken. 
First of all, it is broken spiritually. This is my personal religious belief. I 
think the spiritual 

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Alan J Fletcher]

The greek corner has a post at 3:38 pm

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=el&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defkalion-energy.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D4%26t%3D359%26p%3D6607%26sid%3D7ec7ecfb643df0284b6e2919cb1c5c34%23p6607
 
alfalfa wrote:
Good luck on tests Defkalion. 
(Good luck to us all ...) 
Thank you 
DGT 

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

Of course other people can have different values, but it does not mean their 
values are the correct ones. There can only be one correct set of values for 
humanity when it comes to right and wrong. 


If you are for an open marriage, you are obviously not a Christian. I think you 
have the right to have an open marriage and the right to call yourself a 
Christian if you want. But I will state for the record that according to the 
Bible an open marriage is absolutely wrong, and immoral. However, as a small 
govt. advocate I would openly stand up for your right to be in an open 
marriage, or be married to a dozen women if you want. But at the same time I 
would say that you were living an immoral life that I thought was wrong.


In my opinion, rights and freedoms are not to make your life better. They are 
about keeping you free. Being free may not always be easy or a good experience. 
Expressing your freedom can get you killed in many areas of the world. However, 
we are all born with certain rights and freedoms that come from our creator. We 
have to stand up for those rights and freedoms. Of course people have the 
choice not to. If they do not stand up for ALL their rights I think they have 
less moral grounds to complain when someone violates a certain right. For 
example, those who have no problem with inventors having their technology 
stolen if it benefits the planet have no moral authority to compalin if an evil 
person steals from them. Theft is theft.





 From: Jarold McWilliams 
To: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

 
Can't someone have different values than you?  I am all for open marriage.  How 
am I not a Christian if I favor open marriage?  The only purpose of having 
rights and freedoms is to make your life better.  If life is better without 
freedoms, I don't want freedom.  According to you, don't people have the right 
to support war if they want to?  Do people have the right to sell themselves 
into slavery?  Believe it or not, I'm actually more of an outcast than you are, 
especially on the internet.  I don't care what people think about me, either.  
I don't like to call people names on the internet, but you are making it very 
hard:).
 



 Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:57:43 -0800
From: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com


One, the fact is that when it comes to me standing up for my principles, I 
don't care what people think about me. I would rather they think favorably of 
me, but if they do not I am not going to let it change my behavior. I have been 
called all sorts of names for supporting my various beliefs, but I kept on 
going. I kept on going when it made me an outcast. I eventually embraced it and 
realized that when people react strongly against you, that is a sign you were 
bold enough in your declaration of values. If no one opposes you or reacts 
negatively, you were either preaching to the choir, or cowardly in your 
presentation.

Secondly, when it comes to divorce and marriage, I think the moment someone has 
sexual relations with someone who is not the spouse the marriage is broken. 
First of all, it is broken spiritually. This is my personal religious belief. I 
think the spiritual connection that makes a couple married is cut. Secondly, I 
think the relationship is severely damaged even on a non-spiritual level. It 
will be very difficult for one partner to trust the other. I don't think the 
person who was cheated on will ever view the cheater in the same way again. 
Third, there are all kinds of other issues to do with. For example, the FACT 
that if someone cheats once they are likely to cheat again.


If a couple wants to stay married that is one thing, but I think it is 
unprincipled. I am not married and have never been, but if I were married and 
my spouse cheated on me, I would strive to get the divorce done and over with 
ASAP.  Thankfully, I've not been in a situation this horrible personally, but 
I've been in other situations were principled decisions yielded significant 
consequences.


Of course if a couple are not Christian and have an "open marriage" and have no 
problem with sex outside the confounds of marriage, then "cheating" is not an 
issue at all.

Third, I am a Christian, but many Christians are not real Christians. For 
example, consider the countless neo-cons in the United States that promote the 
idea of going to war with Iran and other Middle Eastern nations. They are rabid 
about this, and despise liberals. I have brought up the fact that many so 
called Christians have turned into blood thirsty warmongers by supporting wars 
with Iran and other nations, and have been attacked for it. I know how 
Christians think about this issue.

Fourth, the simple fact is that wh

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

Money is not the point.

The point is that if a company steals a technology from an inventor (again I am 
not saying Defkalion has stolen anything, I am speaking hypothetically) the 
company who stole the technology should not be allowed to sell products using 
the technology. Of course if the inventor WANTS to make a deal with them that 
is fine. However, if he does NOT want to make a deal with them, it should be 
his option to have the company that stole his technology re-call their 
products. 


It does not matter if the inventor could make a trillion dollars, and the 
offending company would only make one million dollars. If a company steals a 
technology they do not deserve to make one red cent off it, if that is the 
inventor's decision.

Rewarding theft is not acceptable. If anyone supports companies being allowed 
to use technologies they have stolen against the will of the inventor, they 
must also not have a problem with burglars making profit off items they steal 
when breaking and entering into someone's home.

For example, what Jed Rothwell describes is exactly the same as the following 
scenrio.

A burgler enters someones home and steals thousands of items. He then starts a 
business selling those items. For example, maybe the business was baseball 
cards. The issue goes to court and the Judge fines the burglar for stealing the 
cards, but then allows the burglar to continue running the business.

The fact is if someone steals from you they should not be able to continue 
using the stolen items in their business, period! It does not matter how much 
they are fined, or how much money they are willing to give you for allowing 
their business to stay open. The victim should be able to choose if he wants 
the burglar's business shut down or not, at least when it comes to the use of 
the stolen items.


It is the same exact thing. 






 From: Chemical Engineer 
To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com"  
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

Jed is right on.  There will be plenty of money to go around if this technology 
is a go

On Friday, February 24, 2012, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

noone noone  wrote:
> 
>We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. 
>We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen 
>intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling 
>any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's 
>IP without permission.)
>
>
>That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits 
>and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court 
>decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large 
>share of the profits from the loser. No one  "stops X from selling" except 
>when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on 
>consumers.
>
>
>They never shut down an industry or a major producer in such cases. When IBM 
>and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides continue to 
>manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court or the judge 
>rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in the meanwhile, 
>because that would hurt other companies and consumers.
>
>
>There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the 17th 
>century.
>
>
>This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do not 
>allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If Rossi 
>does not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon be allowed 
>to make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge will force 
>him to do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license agreement, or 
>tell the lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that "big companies" can "buy 
>up a patent" and prevent important technology from being developed. This is a 
>myth. As I said, the courts will not allow it. They have ruled that the patent 
>system cannot be used to prevent the spread of useful technology. They take a 
>dim view of companies that seem to be stalling. In any case, patents do not 
>last long and another company can often "invent around" the patent if the 
>owner refuses to license it, so this strategy would not work.
>
>
>- Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

I am not an expert at law, but I would strive to stop someone from selling my 
technology without permission even if it was a futile battle.

If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight 
against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts 
that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the 
activities of the party that stole my technology. For example, I would make 
products and give them away to stop people from purchasing products from the 
other company. Or I would wage a PR campaign against the other company. Also, a 
possibility would be to use the money to hire more lawyers to make the life of 
the company as miserable as possible.


I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. I 
would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and 
quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. He may end up awarding the 
technology ownership fully to the other company, but at least I would have 
stuck up for what was right.

The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world 
that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are 
not as horrible as you portray.






 From: Jed Rothwell 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 

noone noone  wrote:
 
We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. 
We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen 
intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling 
any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's 
IP without permission.)

That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and 
patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. 
If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of 
the profits from the loser. No one  "stops X from selling" except when X is a 
minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers.

They never shut down an industry or a major producer in such cases. When IBM 
and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides continue to 
manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court or the judge 
rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in the meanwhile, 
because that would hurt other companies and consumers.

There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the 17th 
century.

This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do not 
allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If Rossi does 
not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon be allowed to 
make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge will force him to 
do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license agreement, or tell the 
lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that "big companies" can "buy up a 
patent" and prevent important technology from being developed. This is a myth. 
As I said, the courts will not allow it. They have ruled that the patent system 
cannot be used to prevent the spread of useful technology. They take a dim view 
of companies that seem to be stalling. In any case, patents do not last long 
and another company can often "invent around" the patent if the owner refuses 
to license it, so this strategy would not work.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Chemical Engineer]

Jed is right on.  There will be plenty of money to go around if this
technology is a go

On Friday, February 24, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> noone noone  'thesteornpa...@yahoo.com');>> wrote:
>
>>
>> We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual
>> property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have
>> stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped
>> from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by
>> studying Rossi's IP without permission.)
>>
>
> That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil
> lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the
> court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with
> a large share of the profits from the loser. No one  "stops X from selling"
> except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no
> impact on consumers.
>
> They *never* shut down an industry or a major producer in such
> cases. When IBM and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides
> continue to manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court
> or the judge rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in
> the meanwhile, because that would hurt other companies and consumers.
>
> There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the
> 17th century.
>
> This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do
> not allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If
> Rossi does not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon
> be allowed to make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge
> will force him to do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license
> agreement, or tell the lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that "big
> companies" can "buy up a patent" and prevent important technology from
> being developed. This is a myth. As I said, the courts will not allow it.
> They have ruled that the patent system cannot be used to prevent the spread
> of useful technology. They take a dim view of companies that seem to be
> stalling. In any case, patents do not last long and another company can
> often "invent around" the patent if the owner refuses to license it, so
> this strategy would not work.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[Jed Rothwell]

noone noone  wrote:

>
> We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual
> property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have
> stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped
> from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by
> studying Rossi's IP without permission.)
>

That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits
and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court
decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a
large share of the profits from the loser. No one  "stops X from selling"
except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no
impact on consumers.

They *never* shut down an industry or a major producer in such cases. When
IBM and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides continue to
manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court or the judge
rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in the meanwhile,
because that would hurt other companies and consumers.

There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the
17th century.

This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do
not allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If
Rossi does not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon
be allowed to make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge
will force him to do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license
agreement, or tell the lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that "big
companies" can "buy up a patent" and prevent important technology from
being developed. This is a myth. As I said, the courts will not allow it.
They have ruled that the patent system cannot be used to prevent the spread
of useful technology. They take a dim view of companies that seem to be
stalling. In any case, patents do not last long and another company can
often "invent around" the patent if the owner refuses to license it, so
this strategy would not work.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time

[noone noone]

One, the fact is that when it comes to me standing up for my principles, I 
don't care what people think about me. I would rather they think favorably of 
me, but if they do not I am not going to let it change my behavior. I have been 
called all sorts of names for supporting my various beliefs, but I kept on 
going. I kept on going when it made me an outcast. I eventually embraced it and 
realized that when people react strongly against you, that is a sign you were 
bold enough in your declaration of values. If no one opposes you or reacts 
negatively, you were either preaching to the choir, or cowardly in your 
presentation.

Secondly, when it comes to divorce and marriage, I think the moment someone has 
sexual relations with someone who is not the spouse the marriage is broken. 
First of all, it is broken spiritually. This is my personal religious belief. I 
think the spiritual connection that makes a couple married is cut. Secondly, I 
think the relationship is severely damaged even on a non-spiritual level. It 
will be very difficult for one partner to trust the other. I don't think the 
person who was cheated on will ever view the cheater in the same way again. 
Third, there are all kinds of other issues to do with. For example, the FACT 
that if someone cheats once they are likely to cheat again.


If a couple wants to stay married that is one thing, but I think it is 
unprincipled. I am not married and have never been, but if I were married and 
my spouse cheated on me, I would strive to get the divorce done and over with 
ASAP.  Thankfully, I've not been in a situation this horrible personally, but 
I've been in other situations were principled decisions yielded significant 
consequences.


Of course if a couple are not Christian and have an "open marriage" and 
have no problem with sex outside the confounds of marriage, then 
"cheating" is not an issue at all.

Third, I am a Christian, but many Christians are not real Christians. For 
example, consider the countless neo-cons in the United States that promote the 
idea of going to war with Iran and other Middle Eastern nations. They are rabid 
about this, and despise liberals. I have brought up the fact that many so 
called Christians have turned into blood thirsty warmongers by supporting wars 
with Iran and other nations, and have been attacked for it. I know how 
Christians think about this issue.

Fourth, the simple fact is that when it comes to certain issues, there can be 
no ethical compromise. My religious views on marriage is one example. Standing 
up for rights and freedoms (property rights) is another example. 


For many things there is a need for compromise. But when it comes to rights and 
freedoms there is no room for compromise.





 From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson 
To: vortex-l  
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
 
It's been a slow-news Friday afternoon, so please accept my apologies
for continuing this protracted discussion with noone noone:

The world according to noone noone:

> If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied
> it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion
> dollars from a lawsuit.
>
> The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be
> forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money
> by selling the products from my own company.
>
> When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not
> matter what people think of me.

It's been my experience that when I hear people boast that they don't
care "...what other people think about [them]." they are essentially
trying to convince themselves that they have found a magic bullet that
allows themselves to become immune to what other people think about
them.

It matters, noone. It always matters. It's learning how to DEAL with
how others think about you... that is a lesson in life we all must
face. Its learning to find one's personal center. It's learning how to
discover one's sense of personal integrity so that one can
subsequently withstand the onslaught of external pressures demanding
that we conform to specific social taboos.

Quite frankly, it looks to me as if you are trying to remove yourself
from having to deal with the anticipation of personal pain you fear
you will feel based on what you fear others might say about you or
think about you. You think you can avoid this lesson? Think again.
Avoiding that lesson only means it will come back in another scenario
again, and again, until you have the courage to pass through that
fire.

> I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks
> Christians, "who would Jesus bomb." At that point I'm
> automatically considered an evil liberal.

I have no idea how making such a statement about whom "...Jesus would
bomb" could possibly cau