RE: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Dear Giovanni, Your post was NOT trolling. I am probably the one most responsible for your reticence or concern about posting because I came down pretty hard on the trolls. and that probably has a few of you concerned about getting the same kind of treatment. *Please forgive me*, that is not my intention for those who play by the rules - we all want this to remain a friendly, respectful forum for discourse. Your posting was most appropriate and welcome! The first thing that comes to mind about your posting, is item 2); that somebody already thought of it. That has happened with cold fusion. and I'm sorry that I'm not good with names, perhaps Jed can help. But there were two papers, one early 1900s, and one decades later (one was by Paneth and Peters?) which stumbled upon what is thought to be CF/LENR. however, these were experimental papers, not theoretical, IIRC. But it was considered some kind of anomaly and never looked into. This is one of my pet peeves! That anomalous empirical data is many times forgotten and explained away as experimental error. But isn't science supposed to be about the unknown, and trying to better understand what we don't know.. Yet, there really are some things that will ruin your career if you attempt to do research on them! That is so anti-science, and yet, that is reality. FP, 1989, were the first to really study CF/LENR extensively.. for YEARS before they come out with it. they knew it was going to cause a lot of heartburn with their colleagues and especially the physics community. And it took guts to do what they did. and they paid dearly. Keep thinking and questioning and posting. Most Sincerely, -Mark From: Giovanni Santostasi [mailto:gsantost...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:19 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination Orion, Hopefully my comment is not understood as trolling but as polite criticism. It is nice to have imagination and to think about things that are considered by main stream science as impossible. I wish more professional scientists could do that (some do and they wait until they come close to retirement or at least get tenure). What is also nice, though, is to try to see what could go wrong in a particular imagined idea or scheme as a way of understanding better and making more concrete what one imagines. It happened many times to me to think about ideas that I believed were great to find out almost always that two things were true: 1) the idea had some fundamental problem with it and I could not see it (at least at first) 2) the idea was actually good but somebody already thought about it It is simply difficult to come up with something completely amazing, right and original at the same time. But one can learn a lot from this thinking and it is a good way to learn and think about science and nature that are amazing anyway. Well, about the buoyancy perpetual motion we have the case that it is something unfortunately neither original (in the sense that somebody already thought about it) or really working (even if due to relatively subtle reasons). Somewhere non conservative forces are going to make your device stop. This why there is not a working model of such devices but often simulations can be found on the net. Here one example of a pretty complete discussion about different kinds of buoyancy perpetual machines and why they don't work: http://www.hp-gramatke.net/pmm_physics/english/page0550.htm Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Speaking of Regularly Scheduled Programming, here's one from Ski-Fi channel! To my surprise, the troll, Eff Wivakeef, before he was banned, posted something that I personally found fascinating and transformational. Well. let me try to explain what I mean by transformational. * * * Warning! * * * This has to do with another one of those strange synchronistic woo-woo events that occasionally pass through my life. If you don't believe in synchronicity or the existence of strange Unidentified Flying Woo-Woos (UFW2s) you might as well skip the rest of this post. ;-) /* * * Warning! * * * I'm referring to the Troll's attempt to both taunt and ridicule the Vort Collective by posting a You-Tube link to a bogus free energy device allegedly based on the manipulation of gravity, gradient water pressure, and buoyancy. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89SiqG3pI0 We see an individual, James Kwok, owner of a company called Hidro, explaining how his technology works with the aid of a fish tank filled with water and a flexible tube attached at both ends with inflatable bags. One bag has a weight attached to it. Kwok proceeds to give a warm fuzzy spiel with birds chirping away in the background on how gravity affects water pressure, and how this pressure buildup in-turn
RE: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Sure there is.. a hip dude by the name of P. Floyd talks all about it! Hmmm, for some strange reason, I'm feeling comfortably numb... :-) -Original Message- From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:32 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination There is no dark side of the moon, really. Matter of fact it's all dark.
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Thanks for clarification re Moon -- has a two-week night, while one of its poles is always dark -- so surface temperatures get low anyplace it's dark for over a day -- that's how it can hold plenty of H2O as ice within the highly insulating dusk on the surface. I saw a reference to a paper by an expert that proposed energy flow from 300 degree Kelvin to much colder solar system mirror matter could run a practical heat engine -- apparently there is enough heat transfer for it to work -- if the cold mirror matter was at 20 degrees Kelvin, even if it was mirror CO2 or mirror H2O, it could have a strong fractal microstructure, like a ceramic, with a bit of C impurity, and be placed as a thin layer on a thin metal surface of ordinary matter, so then it is possible that there will be useful thermal transfer from the ordinary metal to the much colder mirror matter layer, which would radiate its mirror IR into the very cold mirror dust and gas, still bound by gravity to orbit around the Sun, but not heated by the Sun's IR and light output. The very interesting mirror matter web sites will lead you to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_matter I'm now imagining creatures that evolved as floaters in the organic clouds of gas giants, gradually evolving to absorb and use mirror matter with their normal matter nanostructures, using the mirror matter as heat sinks to allow their metabolism to be driven by light from the distant Sun, and even the galactic background IR, as their balloons become larger and very thin, filled with normal H2 at just a little over the pressure of the supporting gas layers, until they are actually able to sail on the solar wind and light pressure to slowly build up speed, becoming living spacecraft -- not so unlikely, when we watch a bird that can fly, float on water, dive, walk on land, and sleep in nests on trees, changing its shape radically when flying.
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Rick, Thanks for your commentary. BTW, you recently stated: ... I have been repeatedly denigrated as a pathological skeptic -- despite a proven track record of submitting detailed, evidence and reason based, critiques of CF claims since December, 1996, when I evolved from being a naive enthusiast to pragmatic skeptic -- I notice you often describe yourself as: pragmatic. Hardly! IMHO, you're still a hard core idealist. That's OK! ;-) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Analysis of the design using established physics predicts that it will not exhibit pertual motion when it is built. It also goes without saying that you can't expect to design a perpertuum mobile using established physics. If the built device did exhibit perpertual motion, then it would be by luck rather than by design. In order to build a perpetuum mobile by design new principles of physics are required. Harry On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:45 AM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: The Hydro machine has masses moving in a closed path in a gravitational field so the total energy balance is zero. When you consider the motion of the gas in and out of the chambers, that unavoidably will have some friction and losses, then the system is going to have a negative energy balance. This is similar to the last type of perpetual motion machines discussed in the link in my previous post, but unfortunately they don't work. Interesting to think about them though, one can learn nice physics in doing that. Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Steven, what's the difference between those 'viruses' and the MEMES postulated by Richard Dawkins- see Memetics? Peter On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orion, Hopefully my comment is not understood as trolling but as polite criticism. It is nice to have imagination and to think about things that are considered by main stream science as impossible. I wish more professional scientists could do that (some do and they wait until they come close to retirement or at least get tenure). What is also nice, though, is to try to see what could go wrong in a particular imagined idea or scheme as a way of understanding better and making more concrete what one imagines. It happened many times to me to think about ideas that I believed were great to find out almost always that two things were true: 1) the idea had some fundamental problem with it and I could not see it (at least at first) 2) the idea was actually good but somebody already thought about it It is simply difficult to come up with something completely amazing, right and original at the same time. But one can learn a lot from this thinking and it is a good way to learn and think about science and nature that are amazing anyway. Well, about the buoyancy perpetual motion we have the case that it is something unfortunately neither original (in the sense that somebody already thought about it) or really working (even if due to relatively subtle reasons). Somewhere non conservative forces are going to make your device stop. This why there is not a working model of such devices but often simulations can be found on the net. Here one example of a pretty complete discussion about different kinds of buoyancy perpetual machines and why they don't work: http://www.hp-gramatke.net/pmm_physics/english/page0550.htm Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Speaking of Regularly Scheduled Programming, here's one from Ski-Fi channel! To my surprise, the troll, Eff Wivakeef, before he was banned, posted something that I personally found fascinating and transformational. Well… let me try to explain what I mean by transformational. * * * Warning! * * * This has to do with another one of those strange synchronistic woo-woo events that occasionally pass through my life. If you don't believe in synchronicity or the existence of strange Unidentified Flying Woo-Woos (UFW2s) you might as well skip the rest of this post. ;-) /* * * Warning! * * * I'm referring to the Troll's attempt to both taunt and ridicule the Vort Collective by posting a You-Tube link to a bogus free energy device allegedly based on the manipulation of gravity, gradient water pressure, and buoyancy. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89SiqG3pI0 We see an individual, James Kwok, owner of a company called Hidro, explaining how his technology works with the aid of a fish tank filled with water and a flexible tube attached at both ends with inflatable bags. One bag has a weight attached to it. Kwok proceeds to give a warm fuzzy spiel with birds chirping away in the background on how gravity affects water pressure, and how this pressure buildup in-turn affects the buoyancy of the two inflatable bags depending on how deep these bags are positioned within a reservoir of water. Ok, so far, so good. I have a pretty decent understanding of the underlying physics involved pertaining to water pressure and the effects buoyancy. Kwok then proceeds to show how he found a way, through some clever engineering tricks, of manipulating the effects of buoyancy by filling ballast tanks with gas. This causes the ballast tanks to become lighter than the surrounding water where they will subsequently rise
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Well, sure any celestial body in the solar system has one side that is hit by sun light and the other that is not. But usually people talk about the 'dark side of the moon' as the side that is not visible of the moon and my point was that is a misnomer. But yes there are regions of the moon that are at any given moment in darkness but this side is always changing as the moon moves around the earth and moon and earth move around the sun. This region is cold but so any shaded area, even one created by a rock formation lighted by the sun. About mirror matter, I have a PhD in Physics and never heard of it, sorry. I know of course about supersymmetric particles and not sure if they are the same concept or just related. I read the wiki article and I understand now the basic concept, not sure we need mirror matter because even if Parity is violated as it is in the weak force we know in the end CPT (charge, parity and time reversal) is conserved. But I will look into it further, it is an interesting topic. Giovanni On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 3:09 AM, Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for clarification re Moon -- has a two-week night, while one of its poles is always dark -- so surface temperatures get low anyplace it's dark for over a day -- that's how it can hold plenty of H2O as ice within the highly insulating dusk on the surface. I saw a reference to a paper by an expert that proposed energy flow from 300 degree Kelvin to much colder solar system mirror matter could run a practical heat engine -- apparently there is enough heat transfer for it to work -- if the cold mirror matter was at 20 degrees Kelvin, even if it was mirror CO2 or mirror H2O, it could have a strong fractal microstructure, like a ceramic, with a bit of C impurity, and be placed as a thin layer on a thin metal surface of ordinary matter, so then it is possible that there will be useful thermal transfer from the ordinary metal to the much colder mirror matter layer, which would radiate its mirror IR into the very cold mirror dust and gas, still bound by gravity to orbit around the Sun, but not heated by the Sun's IR and light output. The very interesting mirror matter web sites will lead you to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_matter I'm now imagining creatures that evolved as floaters in the organic clouds of gas giants, gradually evolving to absorb and use mirror matter with their normal matter nanostructures, using the mirror matter as heat sinks to allow their metabolism to be driven by light from the distant Sun, and even the galactic background IR, as their balloons become larger and very thin, filled with normal H2 at just a little over the pressure of the supporting gas layers, until they are actually able to sail on the solar wind and light pressure to slowly build up speed, becoming living spacecraft -- not so unlikely, when we watch a bird that can fly, float on water, dive, walk on land, and sleep in nests on trees, changing its shape radically when flying.
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Harry, I agree with you. In the end one has to rely on experimentation. If one builds a machine that works at over unity and this is verified all over the world, on a regular basis, by many independent experimenter than no matter what the theory says, this phenomenon should be accepted. What I cannot accept is that the scientific community purposefully would suppress evidence for such a phenomenon. Scientists are very eager to find anomalous events that could change our understanding of the world. Discovering or contributing to the understanding of such anomalies could mean a guaranteed Nobel Prize. It is that the standards are high to show that this is a reliable anomaly and something that everybody (at least in that particular field specialized scientific community) verify. Few examples come to mind just in relatively recent times : 1) because it was just mentioned, parity violation 2) the acceleration of the expansion of the universe 3) neutrino oscillations and so on. So I'm not sure I would insist in some conspiracy from the scientific community in suppressing LENR. I bet most scientists would be ecstatic if one day somebody can produce reliable LENR supporting results (or any other anomalous over unity energy experiment). Giovanni On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Analysis of the design using established physics predicts that it will not exhibit pertual motion when it is built. It also goes without saying that you can't expect to design a perpertuum mobile using established physics. If the built device did exhibit perpertual motion, then it would be by luck rather than by design. In order to build a perpetuum mobile by design new principles of physics are required. Harry On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:45 AM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: The Hydro machine has masses moving in a closed path in a gravitational field so the total energy balance is zero. When you consider the motion of the gas in and out of the chambers, that unavoidably will have some friction and losses, then the system is going to have a negative energy balance. This is similar to the last type of perpetual motion machines discussed in the link in my previous post, but unfortunately they don't work. Interesting to think about them though, one can learn nice physics in doing that. Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Steven, what's the difference between those 'viruses' and the MEMES postulated by Richard Dawkins- see Memetics? Peter On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orion, Hopefully my comment is not understood as trolling but as polite criticism. It is nice to have imagination and to think about things that are considered by main stream science as impossible. I wish more professional scientists could do that (some do and they wait until they come close to retirement or at least get tenure). What is also nice, though, is to try to see what could go wrong in a particular imagined idea or scheme as a way of understanding better and making more concrete what one imagines. It happened many times to me to think about ideas that I believed were great to find out almost always that two things were true: 1) the idea had some fundamental problem with it and I could not see it (at least at first) 2) the idea was actually good but somebody already thought about it It is simply difficult to come up with something completely amazing, right and original at the same time. But one can learn a lot from this thinking and it is a good way to learn and think about science and nature that are amazing anyway. Well, about the buoyancy perpetual motion we have the case that it is something unfortunately neither original (in the sense that somebody already thought about it) or really working (even if due to relatively subtle reasons). Somewhere non conservative forces are going to make your device stop. This why there is not a working model of such devices but often simulations can be found on the net. Here one example of a pretty complete discussion about different kinds of buoyancy perpetual machines and why they don't work: http://www.hp-gramatke.net/pmm_physics/english/page0550.htm Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Speaking of Regularly Scheduled Programming, here's one from Ski-Fi channel! To my surprise, the troll, Eff Wivakeef, before he was banned, posted something that I personally found fascinating and transformational. Well… let me try to explain what I mean by transformational. * * * Warning! * * * This has to do with another one of those strange synchronistic woo-woo events that occasionally pass through my life. If
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: I bet most scientists would be ecstatic if one day somebody can produce reliable LENR supporting results (or any other anomalous over unity energy experiment). Excluding those whose livelihood depends on fusion of the hot variety. T
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
you are right scientist would love to search on LENR. Some did it officially and got black listed by their administration and the community afraid of the press reactions, thus of politicians and citizen (furious of fund waste) Some did is officiously and keep the results in drawaer Some did it in a big organisation, quite tolerant and not supervizing too much (Nasa, spawar) provided it is not mediatic... when it get mediatic they had to stop. big corp would love to make LENR work. some even tried really, but failed and were de-funded after the problem in my opinion is the media blocus on LENR... all other actors (scientists, gov, corp) did what they could in the real mediatic world... most people don't know more about LENR that the official it is a fraud. seeing how people will accepte the blocus of the past will be fun/sad to see... probably the media will put the blame on innocents, as usual. after all they control the official truth. 2012/1/24 Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com Harry, I agree with you. In the end one has to rely on experimentation. If one builds a machine that works at over unity and this is verified all over the world, on a regular basis, by many independent experimenter than no matter what the theory says, this phenomenon should be accepted. What I cannot accept is that the scientific community purposefully would suppress evidence for such a phenomenon. Scientists are very eager to find anomalous events that could change our understanding of the world. Discovering or contributing to the understanding of such anomalies could mean a guaranteed Nobel Prize. It is that the standards are high to show that this is a reliable anomaly and something that everybody (at least in that particular field specialized scientific community) verify. Few examples come to mind just in relatively recent times : 1) because it was just mentioned, parity violation 2) the acceleration of the expansion of the universe 3) neutrino oscillations and so on. So I'm not sure I would insist in some conspiracy from the scientific community in suppressing LENR. I bet most scientists would be ecstatic if one day somebody can produce reliable LENR supporting results (or any other anomalous over unity energy experiment). Giovanni On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.comwrote: Analysis of the design using established physics predicts that it will not exhibit pertual motion when it is built. It also goes without saying that you can't expect to design a perpertuum mobile using established physics. If the built device did exhibit perpertual motion, then it would be by luck rather than by design. In order to build a perpetuum mobile by design new principles of physics are required. Harry On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:45 AM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: The Hydro machine has masses moving in a closed path in a gravitational field so the total energy balance is zero. When you consider the motion of the gas in and out of the chambers, that unavoidably will have some friction and losses, then the system is going to have a negative energy balance. This is similar to the last type of perpetual motion machines discussed in the link in my previous post, but unfortunately they don't work. Interesting to think about them though, one can learn nice physics in doing that. Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Steven, what's the difference between those 'viruses' and the MEMES postulated by Richard Dawkins- see Memetics? Peter On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orion, Hopefully my comment is not understood as trolling but as polite criticism. It is nice to have imagination and to think about things that are considered by main stream science as impossible. I wish more professional scientists could do that (some do and they wait until they come close to retirement or at least get tenure). What is also nice, though, is to try to see what could go wrong in a particular imagined idea or scheme as a way of understanding better and making more concrete what one imagines. It happened many times to me to think about ideas that I believed were great to find out almost always that two things were true: 1) the idea had some fundamental problem with it and I could not see it (at least at first) 2) the idea was actually good but somebody already thought about it It is simply difficult to come up with something completely amazing, right and original at the same time. But one can learn a lot from this thinking and it is a good way to learn and think about science and nature that are amazing anyway. Well, about the buoyancy perpetual motion we have the case that it is something unfortunately neither original (in the sense that somebody already
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Hello Steven V. Johnson, Wow ! I ended my post this morning at 10:58 AM with the phrase Woo Woo Big Time, not knowing you would be using the phrase woo woo in your fine effort to tactfully and playfully expand and deepen the range of discourse here, and not knowing that 4 skeptics had been banned at 1:48 AM and the list closed down until 2:32 PM... also spelled Bill's email address wrong. Yes, indeed, constant magical sharing among minds, as each of us is all of single entire unified creative fractal multidimensional hyperinfinity, minds within Mind, intimately merging intimately to weave the patterns of sequential perception of events within apparent linear space and one-way time flow -- there are converging streams of thought in core Dzogchen Tibetan Buddhism, Seth material, A Course in Miracles, and the Time Space and Knowledge vision of Rinpoche Tarthang Tulku of Nyingma Institute in Berkeley -- Tulku writes, We are all on the same wave of Great Time... I am keen to see how many here are choosing to willingly allow awareness to open to new realms of experience -- in turn the apparent the apparent daily physical reality will become more positively and freely creative, as shown by the fact that these very little crooked black le t t te r marks appear within many minds, along with resonant understandings... Rich Murray 10:58 AM (8 hours ago) to William, vortex-l Bill Beaty, First, I notice that Jed and others have put me on their kill files, and that I have been repeatedly denigrated as a pathological skeptic -- despite a proven track record of submitting detailed, evidence and reason based, critiques of CF claims since December, 1996, when I evolved from being a naive enthusiast to pragmatic skeptic -- also, I have written detailed reviews that suggest focus on such possibilities as transmutations claimed in Japan for water tree corrosion in the high density polyethylene insulation in high voltage power cables -- I welcome a public assessment from you as to whether you regard me as a pathological skeptic, unworthy of acceptance within a community that explores difficult and uncertain frontier areas of science with considerable openmindedness -- I also claim personal expertise and experience in the realms of intuition- paranormal-psychic-revelation-healing-miracles-spiritual, as an independent explorer not bound by any path or dogma whatsoever -- however, in scientific-technical realms, I play by the confining rules of the game, applying public evidence and reason -- more and more like me are playing, but very discretely -- Google nonduality. No one has to read all of Mary Yugo's posts -- I've reaped from her very good understandings about similar controversies, how scams work, overall patterns of evidence, and sensible technical points -- I'm pleased she's using more restraint and civility -- I believe she, like me, is very sincere in hoping to see an unexpected revolution in physics and technology -- however, it really will be about integrating personal expanded multidimensional awareness, allowing the moments of personal experience to be pragmatically magical. within mutual service, Rich Murray, WWBT Woo Woo Big Time http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg62252.html [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:02:43 -0800 On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 7:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Speaking of Regularly Scheduled Programming, here's one from Ski-Fi channel! To my surprise, the troll, Eff Wivakeef, before he was banned, posted something that I personally found fascinating and transformational. Well… let me try to explain what I mean by transformational.
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Orion, Hopefully my comment is not understood as trolling but as polite criticism. It is nice to have imagination and to think about things that are considered by main stream science as impossible. I wish more professional scientists could do that (some do and they wait until they come close to retirement or at least get tenure). What is also nice, though, is to try to see what could go wrong in a particular imagined idea or scheme as a way of understanding better and making more concrete what one imagines. It happened many times to me to think about ideas that I believed were great to find out almost always that two things were true: 1) the idea had some fundamental problem with it and I could not see it (at least at first) 2) the idea was actually good but somebody already thought about it It is simply difficult to come up with something completely amazing, right and original at the same time. But one can learn a lot from this thinking and it is a good way to learn and think about science and nature that are amazing anyway. Well, about the buoyancy perpetual motion we have the case that it is something unfortunately neither original (in the sense that somebody already thought about it) or really working (even if due to relatively subtle reasons). Somewhere non conservative forces are going to make your device stop. This why there is not a working model of such devices but often simulations can be found on the net. Here one example of a pretty complete discussion about different kinds of buoyancy perpetual machines and why they don't work: http://www.hp-gramatke.net/pmm_physics/english/page0550.htm Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Speaking of Regularly Scheduled Programming, here's one from Ski-Fi channel! ** ** To my surprise, the troll, Eff Wivakeef, before he was banned, posted something that I personally found fascinating and transformational. Well… let me try to explain what I mean by transformational. ** ** * * * Warning! * * * ** ** This has to do with another one of those strange synchronistic woo-woo events that occasionally pass through my life. If you don't believe in synchronicity or the existence of strange Unidentified Flying Woo-Woos (UFW2s) you might as well skip the rest of this post. ;-) ** ** /* * * Warning! * * * ** ** I'm referring to the Troll's attempt to both taunt and ridicule the Vort Collective by posting a You-Tube link to a bogus free energy device allegedly based on the manipulation of gravity, gradient water pressure, and buoyancy. ** ** See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89SiqG3pI0 ** ** We see an individual, James Kwok, owner of a company called Hidro, explaining how his technology works with the aid of a fish tank filled with water and a flexible tube attached at both ends with inflatable bags. One bag has a weight attached to it. Kwok proceeds to give a warm fuzzy spiel with birds chirping away in the background on how gravity affects water pressure, and how this pressure buildup in-turn affects the buoyancy of the two inflatable bags depending on how deep these bags are positioned within a reservoir of water. ** ** Ok, so far, so good. I have a pretty decent understanding of the underlying physics involved pertaining to water pressure and the effects buoyancy. Kwok then proceeds to show how he found a way, through some clever engineering tricks, of manipulating the effects of buoyancy by filling ballast tanks with gas. This causes the ballast tanks to become lighter than the surrounding water where they will subsequently rise to the surface. Meanwhile other ballast tanks currently on the surface of the water will fill with water causing them to become heavier than the surrounding water and sink. The end-game to Kwok's fascinating demo is revealed in a simple animated computer graphic where he claims an endless free energy cycle can be harnessed by connecting these ballast tanks with the aid of what looks like a very long bicycle chain. The rotating chain, in turn powers an electric generator. Wallah! Free energy! Brought to you by gravity, water pressure, ballast tanks, and a bicycle chain! What could go wrong! ** ** What astonished me was not whether Kwok's contraption would work. (Not very likely!) The mystery I was confronting was what kind of mechanisms might have been involved in bringing Kwok's wacky concept to my attention in the first place. How did this Troll's random post, a troll who didn't know me, a troll who was attempting to taunt members of the list group I participate in, end up posting something that intimately synchronized with something I had been privately mulling about in my head for the past week. During occasional idle moments, I had found myself trying to visualize how one might be able to set up some kind of a free energy cycle that
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
I found this on peswiki: By the way, speaking of timing and synchronicity, as I was workinghttp://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:_Hidro_--_Water_Pressures_Energy_Conversion_(WAPEC)# on this page, about to get on a plane coming back from the Next Gen Expohttp://next-gen-expo.com/ in Florida, Glen Davishttp://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:_Hidro_--_Water_Pressures_Energy_Conversion_(WAPEC)#, called me up saying he had another idea for a free energy device. He had approached me a couple of weeks ago about open sourcing his working gravity motor technology (he wants to file a provisional patent first). His new idea involved a system using balloons and buoyancy that actually is a close match to this Hidro system. Had I not spent the time I have looking at Kwok's system, I would have dismissed his idea as not plausible. But it just so happened that I had my computer open and was working on this write-up when he called, so instead I was able to say that not only was the idea plausible, but someone had apparently built a working prototype based on that concept, and I was looking at it as we spoke. So that's a kudo to Glen's inventive intuition. You'll be hearing more about that soon, I hope. On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Speaking of Regularly Scheduled Programming, here's one from Ski-Fi channel! ** ** To my surprise, the troll, Eff Wivakeef, before he was banned, posted something that I personally found fascinating and transformational. Well… let me try to explain what I mean by transformational. ** ** * * * Warning! * * * ** ** This has to do with another one of those strange synchronistic woo-woo events that occasionally pass through my life. If you don't believe in synchronicity or the existence of strange Unidentified Flying Woo-Woos (UFW2s) you might as well skip the rest of this post. ;-) ** ** /* * * Warning! * * * ** ** I'm referring to the Troll's attempt to both taunt and ridicule the Vort Collective by posting a You-Tube link to a bogus free energy device allegedly based on the manipulation of gravity, gradient water pressure, and buoyancy. ** ** See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89SiqG3pI0 ** ** We see an individual, James Kwok, owner of a company called Hidro, explaining how his technology works with the aid of a fish tank filled with water and a flexible tube attached at both ends with inflatable bags. One bag has a weight attached to it. Kwok proceeds to give a warm fuzzy spiel with birds chirping away in the background on how gravity affects water pressure, and how this pressure buildup in-turn affects the buoyancy of the two inflatable bags depending on how deep these bags are positioned within a reservoir of water. ** ** Ok, so far, so good. I have a pretty decent understanding of the underlying physics involved pertaining to water pressure and the effects buoyancy. Kwok then proceeds to show how he found a way, through some clever engineering tricks, of manipulating the effects of buoyancy by filling ballast tanks with gas. This causes the ballast tanks to become lighter than the surrounding water where they will subsequently rise to the surface. Meanwhile other ballast tanks currently on the surface of the water will fill with water causing them to become heavier than the surrounding water and sink. The end-game to Kwok's fascinating demo is revealed in a simple animated computer graphic where he claims an endless free energy cycle can be harnessed by connecting these ballast tanks with the aid of what looks like a very long bicycle chain. The rotating chain, in turn powers an electric generator. Wallah! Free energy! Brought to you by gravity, water pressure, ballast tanks, and a bicycle chain! What could go wrong! ** ** What astonished me was not whether Kwok's contraption would work. (Not very likely!) The mystery I was confronting was what kind of mechanisms might have been involved in bringing Kwok's wacky concept to my attention in the first place. How did this Troll's random post, a troll who didn't know me, a troll who was attempting to taunt members of the list group I participate in, end up posting something that intimately synchronized with something I had been privately mulling about in my head for the past week. During occasional idle moments, I had found myself trying to visualize how one might be able to set up some kind of a free energy cycle that could take advantage of gravity/pressure/buoyancy effects. Hey! I know it's a crazy idea! I can't help myself! Long ago I came out of the closet (at least to myself) and accepted the fact that I enjoy playing around with these wacky mental exercises. So far, I haven't gone blind from excessive Imagerybation. My Fool's Imagination seems harmless. ** ** What this visual exercise brought home to me was a realization that what I
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Steven, what's the difference between those 'viruses' and the MEMES postulated by Richard Dawkins- see Memetics? Peter On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.comwrote: Orion, Hopefully my comment is not understood as trolling but as polite criticism. It is nice to have imagination and to think about things that are considered by main stream science as impossible. I wish more professional scientists could do that (some do and they wait until they come close to retirement or at least get tenure). What is also nice, though, is to try to see what could go wrong in a particular imagined idea or scheme as a way of understanding better and making more concrete what one imagines. It happened many times to me to think about ideas that I believed were great to find out almost always that two things were true: 1) the idea had some fundamental problem with it and I could not see it (at least at first) 2) the idea was actually good but somebody already thought about it It is simply difficult to come up with something completely amazing, right and original at the same time. But one can learn a lot from this thinking and it is a good way to learn and think about science and nature that are amazing anyway. Well, about the buoyancy perpetual motion we have the case that it is something unfortunately neither original (in the sense that somebody already thought about it) or really working (even if due to relatively subtle reasons). Somewhere non conservative forces are going to make your device stop. This why there is not a working model of such devices but often simulations can be found on the net. Here one example of a pretty complete discussion about different kinds of buoyancy perpetual machines and why they don't work: http://www.hp-gramatke.net/pmm_physics/english/page0550.htm Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Speaking of Regularly Scheduled Programming, here's one from Ski-Fi channel! ** ** To my surprise, the troll, Eff Wivakeef, before he was banned, posted something that I personally found fascinating and transformational. Well… let me try to explain what I mean by transformational. ** ** * * * Warning! * * * ** ** This has to do with another one of those strange synchronistic woo-woo events that occasionally pass through my life. If you don't believe in synchronicity or the existence of strange Unidentified Flying Woo-Woos (UFW2s) you might as well skip the rest of this post. ;-) ** ** /* * * Warning! * * * ** ** I'm referring to the Troll's attempt to both taunt and ridicule the Vort Collective by posting a You-Tube link to a bogus free energy device allegedly based on the manipulation of gravity, gradient water pressure, and buoyancy. ** ** See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89SiqG3pI0 ** ** We see an individual, James Kwok, owner of a company called Hidro, explaining how his technology works with the aid of a fish tank filled with water and a flexible tube attached at both ends with inflatable bags. One bag has a weight attached to it. Kwok proceeds to give a warm fuzzy spiel with birds chirping away in the background on how gravity affects water pressure, and how this pressure buildup in-turn affects the buoyancy of the two inflatable bags depending on how deep these bags are positioned within a reservoir of water. ** ** Ok, so far, so good. I have a pretty decent understanding of the underlying physics involved pertaining to water pressure and the effects buoyancy. Kwok then proceeds to show how he found a way, through some clever engineering tricks, of manipulating the effects of buoyancy by filling ballast tanks with gas. This causes the ballast tanks to become lighter than the surrounding water where they will subsequently rise to the surface. Meanwhile other ballast tanks currently on the surface of the water will fill with water causing them to become heavier than the surrounding water and sink. The end-game to Kwok's fascinating demo is revealed in a simple animated computer graphic where he claims an endless free energy cycle can be harnessed by connecting these ballast tanks with the aid of what looks like a very long bicycle chain. The rotating chain, in turn powers an electric generator. Wallah! Free energy! Brought to you by gravity, water pressure, ballast tanks, and a bicycle chain! What could go wrong! ** ** What astonished me was not whether Kwok's contraption would work. (Not very likely!) The mystery I was confronting was what kind of mechanisms might have been involved in bringing Kwok's wacky concept to my attention in the first place. How did this Troll's random post, a troll who didn't know me, a troll who was attempting to taunt members of the list group I participate in, end up posting something that intimately
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
The Hydro machine has masses moving in a closed path in a gravitational field so the total energy balance is zero. When you consider the motion of the gas in and out of the chambers, that unavoidably will have some friction and losses, then the system is going to have a negative energy balance. This is similar to the last type of perpetual motion machines discussed in the link in my previous post, but unfortunately they don't work. Interesting to think about them though, one can learn nice physics in doing that. Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Steven, what's the difference between those 'viruses' and the MEMES postulated by Richard Dawkins- see Memetics? Peter On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orion, Hopefully my comment is not understood as trolling but as polite criticism. It is nice to have imagination and to think about things that are considered by main stream science as impossible. I wish more professional scientists could do that (some do and they wait until they come close to retirement or at least get tenure). What is also nice, though, is to try to see what could go wrong in a particular imagined idea or scheme as a way of understanding better and making more concrete what one imagines. It happened many times to me to think about ideas that I believed were great to find out almost always that two things were true: 1) the idea had some fundamental problem with it and I could not see it (at least at first) 2) the idea was actually good but somebody already thought about it It is simply difficult to come up with something completely amazing, right and original at the same time. But one can learn a lot from this thinking and it is a good way to learn and think about science and nature that are amazing anyway. Well, about the buoyancy perpetual motion we have the case that it is something unfortunately neither original (in the sense that somebody already thought about it) or really working (even if due to relatively subtle reasons). Somewhere non conservative forces are going to make your device stop. This why there is not a working model of such devices but often simulations can be found on the net. Here one example of a pretty complete discussion about different kinds of buoyancy perpetual machines and why they don't work: http://www.hp-gramatke.net/pmm_physics/english/page0550.htm Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: Speaking of Regularly Scheduled Programming, here's one from Ski-Fi channel! ** ** To my surprise, the troll, Eff Wivakeef, before he was banned, posted something that I personally found fascinating and transformational. Well… let me try to explain what I mean by transformational. ** ** * * * Warning! * * * ** ** This has to do with another one of those strange synchronistic woo-woo events that occasionally pass through my life. If you don't believe in synchronicity or the existence of strange Unidentified Flying Woo-Woos (UFW2s) you might as well skip the rest of this post. ;-) ** ** /* * * Warning! * * * ** ** I'm referring to the Troll's attempt to both taunt and ridicule the Vort Collective by posting a You-Tube link to a bogus free energy device allegedly based on the manipulation of gravity, gradient water pressure, and buoyancy. ** ** See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89SiqG3pI0 ** ** We see an individual, James Kwok, owner of a company called Hidro, explaining how his technology works with the aid of a fish tank filled with water and a flexible tube attached at both ends with inflatable bags. One bag has a weight attached to it. Kwok proceeds to give a warm fuzzy spiel with birds chirping away in the background on how gravity affects water pressure, and how this pressure buildup in-turn affects the buoyancy of the two inflatable bags depending on how deep these bags are positioned within a reservoir of water. ** ** Ok, so far, so good. I have a pretty decent understanding of the underlying physics involved pertaining to water pressure and the effects buoyancy. Kwok then proceeds to show how he found a way, through some clever engineering tricks, of manipulating the effects of buoyancy by filling ballast tanks with gas. This causes the ballast tanks to become lighter than the surrounding water where they will subsequently rise to the surface. Meanwhile other ballast tanks currently on the surface of the water will fill with water causing them to become heavier than the surrounding water and sink. The end-game to Kwok's fascinating demo is revealed in a simple animated computer graphic where he claims an endless free energy cycle can be harnessed by connecting these ballast tanks with the aid of what looks like a very long bicycle chain. The
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Hi Giovanni Santostasi, buoyant perpetual motion -- the ever effervescing fluctuations of the quantum space-time foam -- our universe bubble as an expanding geometic instability from a minute quantum fluctuation -- floating? in something? so the biggest thing we see is the smallest thing we see -- the only thing we see -- while somehow we are aspects of it, subtly interacting with itself -- if it can produce a huge excess of matter over antimatter, then may be it can produce a surplus of available free usable energy, somehow accessible -- already imagined by Prof. Robert Foot is mirror matter, which is as cold as the dark side of the Moon, radiating freely to the Galaxy, interacting only with our matter via a 10E-6 electromagnetic effect, so a lump of it could sit on the surface of Earth, forever as cold as interplanetary dust, a few tens of degrees Kelvin, thus available as a heat sink for a power generating perpetual Carnot cycle, running off the 300 degree Kelvin surface temperature of Earth -- serious, detailed theoretical explorations, with plenty of ways to confirm and disconfirm -- so far, inconclusive -- but if that one can be imagined, well, we all know in physics there's always more than one way to skin a cat -- and there are ice caves, mysteriously cold for thousands of years, even in hot deserts... University of Melbourne staff, nice web site, a few co-workers worldwide, worth a Google... On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orion, Hopefully my comment is not understood as trolling but as polite criticism. It is nice to have imagination and to think about things that are considered by main stream science as impossible. I wish more professional scientists could do that (some do and they wait until they come close to retirement or at least get tenure).
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Rick, There is not a dark side of the moon it is misnomer. It should be called the non visible (from earth) side of the moon. The sun shines on that side as it shines on any other part of the moon. In fact it is the only lighted side when the moon is between the sun and the earth for example. Aside this, not sure what you are referring to with mirror matter (I will look it up) but if there was something that was very cold had only weak EM interactions with matter it would not be a good heat sink, because in the end heat is transmitted by collisions between particles that are possible only because particles have EM fields to interact with each other. So no much heat could be transmitted to something that has a weak EM interaction with matter. Giovanni On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Giovanni Santostasi, buoyant perpetual motion -- the ever effervescing fluctuations of the quantum space-time foam -- our universe bubble as an expanding geometic instability from a minute quantum fluctuation -- floating? in something? so the biggest thing we see is the smallest thing we see -- the only thing we see -- while somehow we are aspects of it, subtly interacting with itself -- if it can produce a huge excess of matter over antimatter, then may be it can produce a surplus of available free usable energy, somehow accessible -- already imagined by Prof. Robert Foot is mirror matter, which is as cold as the dark side of the Moon, radiating freely to the Galaxy, interacting only with our matter via a 10E-6 electromagnetic effect, so a lump of it could sit on the surface of Earth, forever as cold as interplanetary dust, a few tens of degrees Kelvin, thus available as a heat sink for a power generating perpetual Carnot cycle, running off the 300 degree Kelvin surface temperature of Earth -- serious, detailed theoretical explorations, with plenty of ways to confirm and disconfirm -- so far, inconclusive -- but if that one can be imagined, well, we all know in physics there's always more than one way to skin a cat -- and there are ice caves, mysteriously cold for thousands of years, even in hot deserts... University of Melbourne staff, nice web site, a few co-workers worldwide, worth a Google... On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orion, Hopefully my comment is not understood as trolling but as polite criticism. It is nice to have imagination and to think about things that are considered by main stream science as impossible. I wish more professional scientists could do that (some do and they wait until they come close to retirement or at least get tenure).
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
There is no dark side of the moon, really. Matter of fact it's all dark.
Re: [Vo]:The Garbage Collection of a Fool's Imagination
Yes, it is a misnomer, it is the side that is away from the earth and it is never seen from the earth, but it receive exactly the same amount of light than the other side does (over a full orbit of the moon around the earth). The moon is locked tidally with the earth in such way that one orbit corresponds to one rotation so it always shows only one side to the earth. But the sun lights up that side equally as the side that is oriented towards the earth. Giovanni On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Kyle Mcallister kyle_mcallis...@yahoo.com wrote: There is no dark side of the moon, really. Matter of fact it's all dark.
