Re: [vos-d] C#
On 3/12/06, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote, a while back :-D : If I were to develop in C# in my own projects, I would used the freesoftware implementation, Mono.Hmmm, that's possibly a good idea :-D ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Second Life ?
Hi Hermetic, OSMP ( http://metaverse.sf.net ) is a separate project from Vos, but I keep a fairly close watch on what Vos is doing. OSMP is firmly rooted in SecondLife at its origins; the goal is do well all the bits that SecondLife does badly. Along the way I've discovered that "just" doing the bits that SecondLife does well is quite a challenge in its own right ;-) but OSMP moves on, slowly but surely. On 3/31/06, swe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Hugh,looked at your metaverse link.What is the relation metaverse to VOS, is it the same codebase? Has VOS more features?thanx hermeticOn Fri, 31 Mar 2006, Hugh Perkins wrote:> Yeah, what Reed said.SecondLife is very cool but it is closed-source, at least for now. Being closed-source isnt necessarily an issue on its own, except there are certainfunctionalities that are not possible at this time, and that some peopleconsider critical.Hugh Perkins http://metaverse.sf.net___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Second Life ?
Yeah, what Reed said. SecondLife is very cool but it is closed-source, at least for now. Being closed-source isnt necessarily an issue on its own, except there are certain functionalities that are not possible at this time, and that some people consider critical. Hugh Perkins http://metaverse.sf.net ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] site peering
Peter, Disclaimer: the only thing I'm sure about the problem is that I havent fully understood it ;-) The problem appears to be a stable way of identifying each machine? Could you use an IP address and port as seen by an (internet-based) STUN server? On 3/27/06, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1Something that has been a big source of trouble for... well pretty much forever is a problem I call the "peer introduction problem".Here it is in a nutshell. Your client C has a connection to site A.Site A links to a vobject on host B. You have connections to both site A and site B. It would be wasteful to create a second parallel connectionto host B, since all the vobject caching, listeners and everything elsewould be duplicated. How do you ensure that you can associate that hyperlink to your existing connection to site B?Well, the obvious answer is, site A sends you a link vip://B/foo, yourecognize B, and everything works.Except when it doesn't. Such as:- -> C and B are on a local subnet, but A is on the internet. A doesn't know the internal hostname/IP address for B, and so A and C use differenthostname/IP addresses to refer to B.- -> Because of DNS aliases, A and C connected to B using differenthostnames. They again use different names that refer to the same actual site.- -> Because of multihoming, A and C connected to B using different IPaddresses (see a pattern here?) They have different addresses that referto the same actual site.- -> A and B are connected using a different protocol than C and B. For example, A and B are part of a server cluster and are using a gigabitinterconnect, but C is on the internet. (This is a variation on the firstonce, since the addresses would also be different...)Now, the solution is for B to be able to identify itself uniquely in some way. How do you do that?Currently, VOS has a concept of "host aliases" and a "preferred hostname".The way this works is that when a site connects, it provides a list ofother names it is known by, starting with the preferred name, which is the one that should be used when talking to other sites.This is a 50% solution and has two flaws. First, this is essentially ajury-rigged solution that doesn't catch cases where not all validhostnames are known -- and, as it turns out, 90%+ of computers on the internet (in my estimation) don't have their hostnames properlyconfigured. For example, windows will happily report as a hostname "MOM'SCOMPUTER" or "WORKSTATION"...However, a far larger problem is security: what happens if a site lies about its host aliases? It can pretend to be another site.VOS bends over backwards to address the security issue, and the resultisn't very graceful. During site peering it exchanges specialchallenge/response numbers. In order to verify that a site alias is valid, it goes through and tries to contact each site alias and uses thechallenge key. If it can't contact the site (or doesn't get the correctchallege back) it discards the host alias.At least, that is what it used to do. I have disabled that code entirely for the time being, because it doesn't work.The solution is to completely re-think how a remote site is identified,and I will discuss this in my next email.[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFEJ25DaeHUyhjCHfcRAiNaAKCqeIYe5VyRlhoIEGlcdx0P8bAlPgCfb21bZRiTKKsnrO4NRLb/7bwCt6E==O054-END PGP SIGNATURE- ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] [philosophical] VOS as AI
> Something I've been thinking about a lot is replication and migration ofcomputation. If a VOS AI bot could upload itself to other servers (givenproper credentials, of course) it could quite literally wander from server to server, well beyond the purview of the creator. Unlike a virus orworm, it would retain memories of what it had seen and done, so it couldlearn as it travels. VOS would provide the environment for this new kind of artifical life. Whoa, that sounds like Skyn*carrier lost* Peter, this sounds awesome. ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] makehuman
Ben wrote: > It can't be cool, it's C ;-) C dlls are pretty easy to wrap with managed code, as long as there arent too many structures or arrays flying around in the interface. Peter wrote: > They're rewriting it in C++, I'm not sure if that helps or hurts the cause Hurts, as you guessed. C dlls are rather easy to integrate into .Net applications in any language. C++ need to be wrapped with a managed C++ wrapper. On 3/17/06, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1They're rewriting it in C++, I'm not sure if that helps or hurts the cause:-)On Fri, 17 Mar 2006, Benjamin Mesing wrote:>>> This is incredibly cool. > It can't be cool, it's C ;-)>> Ben[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFEGtAPaeHUyhjCHfcRAu9JAJ9cEIkgBpsiNeI7W2wp9P/5XN9NdwCgmLlZ UnLopigHLXC1n3bwEU4Gn8I==0qle-END PGP SIGNATURE-___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] makehuman
Peter, This is incredibly cool. On 3/15/06, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1I had heard about this as a plugin to Blender, but in fact it is a standalone GPL'd C library for constructing humanoid characters:http://www.dedalo-3d.com/index.php?filename=SXCOL/makehuman/abstract.html This is absolutely something we want to incorporate into VOS for a futureavatar construction kit...[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ] [ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQFEFy42aeHUyhjCHfcRAhCzAJjTPsTw7N+r5aVBWvTOMtMijhgtAKCaJfXhhLjuzYFe6v0KgGCrqswEvA===Wpac-END PGP SIGNATURE-___vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Re: [OFF] typing
Lalo, On 3/14/06, Lalo Martins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And you can constrain even that using slots. If you're interested,contact me in private :-) otherwise, just record the fact that it's possible. (A class with slots makes all attribute assignments failunless the attribute name is in the slots list.) Hmmm, that does sound like it resolves this issue. Perhaps it's this simple? I guess there is one other thing I like about C# compared with using Python, which is that once you've compiled it you know you're not going to wait for the application to load, start trying some command, and Boom! you mistyped a variable name, and the program dies... Is there some way to force Python to compile everything right at the start? ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] [OFF] typing
Lalo, What are your thoughts on Duck Typing? http://boo.codehaus.org/Duck+Typing ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] [OFF] typing
Hi Lalo,
Yes, you're right that dynamic typing is very cool.
I guess the thing that I find tricky in Python is that it is possible to accidentally add unintended properties to a class by misspelling the intended one, and sometimes it's tricky to catch this. For example (my Python syntax might be a little rusty..):
class MyClass():
def __constructor__(self, name): self.name = name
def PrintName(self):
print "My name is " + self.myname
myobject = new MyClass("Tom")
myobject.PrintName()
gives:
C:\> python test.py
My name is
C:\>
... because we wrote self.myname instead of self.name.
Obviously in this somewhat trivial example it's easy to debug, but the point is that this introduces logical errors into the code, that are never caught by the interpeter itself, only by seeing that the results are not what we want.
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Re: [vos-d] Re: Swig
Hi Lalo, Yes, you're right, for many applications weak typing is better, because it produces more compact, easier to read code.On 3/13/06, Lalo Martins < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:And so says Hugh Perkins on 12/03/06 14:27... > Just to throw some salt in the wounds of the Python discussions, I cant> help thinking that C# has all the advantages of both Python (run from> source, easy to read) and C++ (strong typing, runs quickly). agreeing to that would require me to agree that strong typing is anadvantage :-) I think it's a serious weakness.best, Lalo Martins-- ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Swig
Yeah, Neil is 100% right. FWIW, I'm using Scite as my editor, and lescript as my build tool. Scite: http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html lescript: http://manageddreams.com/utils/lescriptmar9.zip Lescript lets you use C# as though it is a scripting language, ie you can do: C:\> lescript --nologo helloworld.cs Hello World! C:\> You need to have .Net Framework 1.1 runtime installed to use lescript ( http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=262d25e3-f589-4842-8157-034d1e7cf3a3&DisplayLang=en ) Hugh http://manageddreams.com On 3/13/06, Neil Mosafi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That it costs anything is a common misconception: The Microsoft C# compiler comes for free with Windows. You can download the Visual Studio 2005 Express Editions for free for a year. You can download other integrated development enviroments for free (such as SharpDevelop) You can build C# in Mono for free, which also runs on Linux which is a free OS. All the MSDN documentation is available for free online. So altogether, it is highly possible to spend no money and build C# apps. ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] C#
Hi Peter, > C# runs from source? What?? While the compiler is in fact part of theruntime (so there are APIs to load and compile source on the fly) it stillis generally statically compiled. Good to see you spotted my intentionally controversial comment ;-) So, as you say C# is a compiled language, not an interpreted one; however there are two characteristics about the C# compiler that make this distinction somewhat academic: - the C# compiler, and everything needed to use it (libraries, ...) is included with the basic .Net Framework runtime - the C# compiler runs *very* fast. To illustrate that second assertion, that C# compiler runs fast, here's a comparison. OSMP C++ edition will build in around 30-60 minutes, depending on your machine. OSMP C# will build in between 500ms and 10 seconds, depending on your machine. That's fast enough that OSMP C# does actually run from source-code, using lescript, at application start-up. On 3/12/06, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1On Sun, 12 Mar 2006, Hugh Perkins wrote:> Hmmm, >> After playing around a little with C#, I have to agree with Neil: C# rocks.At my work we have a large (300,000+ line) application written mostly inC# and C++ (managed and unmanaged projects). On the whole I would say C# is very good, particularly now that in .NET 2.0 they have introducedcross-langauge generics. At work all our new code is written in C# thesedays.> Just to throw some salt in the wounds of the Python discussions, I cant help > thinking that C# has all the advantages of both Python (run from source,> easy to read) and C++ (strong typing, runs quickly).C# runs from source? What?? While the compiler is in fact part of the runtime (so there are APIs to load and compile source on the fly) it stillis generally statically compiled.> Btw, OSMP is now available in a C# version ;-)>> http://manageddreams.com/osmpbb/viewtopic.php?t=333Neat. What are you using for your 3D engine?If I were to develop in C# in my own projects, I would used the freesoftware implementation, Mono. However I have not looked at it yet, so I can't comment whether it is any good. The biggest concern I have with C#as a language for developing free software is cross-platform support --Microsoft and Mono don't have the same APIs and the runtime system just isn't a standard component on non-Windows platforms.Making VOS accessable in .NET (either binding the C++ library or actuallyreimplementing it) is something I have given some thought to. However,nobody has specifically asked for it yet, and we've already got a TODO list a mile long...[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet] [ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFEE9JlaeHUyhjCHfcRAiOLAKCsZ6Nt3Pb9f8iK5RzkaOhUuWF/0ACgiYvy5LHKtPAkh5H5iQKFthguaN4==CfXg-END PGP SIGNATURE- ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Swig
Hmmm, After playing around a little with C#, I have to agree with Neil: C# rocks. Just to throw some salt in the wounds of the Python discussions, I cant help thinking that C# has all the advantages of both Python (run from source, easy to read) and C++ (strong typing, runs quickly). Btw, OSMP is now available in a C# version ;-) http://manageddreams.com/osmpbb/viewtopic.php?t=333 On 9/2/05, Neil Mosafi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yep, not had much practise with managed C++ as I'm lazy and C# is so much easier (!), but I guess managed C++ could be the way to go for integrating with VOS as it can fully utilise the C++ classes. Still there'd be work required to make the API more ".net like" ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] windows support
Cool... Btw, wrt Visual Studio solution files, there's an opensource project out there now that can read them, so that makes Visual Studio solution files quite generic and useful. The project is called "Code::Blocks". Hugh On 11/22/05, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1A few notes on ongoing Windows support for VOS: 1. Microsoft has released Visual Studio 2005. Of particular interest isVisual C++ "express edition" which is currently free to download: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualc/download/Important notes on setting up the Win32 Platform SDK here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualc/usingpsdk/ 2. I'm working on automatically generating visual studio project andsolution filesfrom our automake files. I had originally looked into usingthe msvcgen system developed for Crystal Space, but determined it would require just about as much effort to understand *their* system as to rollmy own. So I've been hacking on this. Currently it generates viablevcproj files, and the code to generate solution files is done (but hasn't been tested). In true Unix tradition, the generator scripts are asomewhat sticky combination of shell, make, sed and m4, but for what itdoes it's actually a suprisingly small amount of code and avoidsdependencies on large external tools such as Template Toolkit (required for Crystal Space's msvcgen). The m4 macros may require an advanceddegree in computer science to understand, though. :-)3. There's also a script I wrote a few months ago than generates nmakefiles from automake. 4. Although it goes against policy that "no file that can be generatedautomatically shall go into CVS", I'm thinking that I will commit thevcproj, nmake and solution files, because Windows users who would make use of these files are less likely to have the required Unix environment onhand to build them.5. I now have access to Visual Studio 2003 and 2005, so those are theversions I intend to support. If the project files are basically the same, then I can support 2002 as well. Visual Studio 6? Bwahahahahahhahahahah... no.6. Mingw continues to be supported via the standard autoconf build system.My hope for this version is to figure out a workaround so that a cygwin install (for the file(1) command) is not required.7. Building in Cygwin (with -mno-cygwin) is not at this time supported,although I can play around with itif someone feels strongly about it.8. I'm working towards the 0.23 release. No firm date on that yet (likelyJanuary) and the focus of this release is to make it easy for newdevelopers to build VOS with a minimum of hassle. The other major newfeature of this release will be the XML Object Description (XOD) format for loading and saving collections of Vobjects, and a generic loader/saverarchitechture for object import/export to supported various file formats.[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFDgrDUaeHUyhjCHfcRAtimAJ411DU3rwm8EmmSEZN4tShAFqXDCQCgi5NY6Gz38n2HHZW/g9OsxIqyrZs==YD1j-END PGP SIGNATURE- ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Fwd: [www-vrml] Announcing Emma 0.4
This looks pretty interesting. At a big-picture level, they're using similar technology to OSMP - Lua scripting and Ogre3D - but they seem to have professional experience of doing something very similar before, at Sony. There seems to be a fair amount of emphasis on 2D things, such as flash. I might consider slotting in some technology into Emma, rather than continuing to build everything from scratch, but it depends on how far along they are really (didnt check yet, though the screenshots are basically a couple of ogre demo meshes, which doesnt bode really well, but who knows). Don't think they are using Python, for better or worse. Since OSMP is more and more modular, there's no reason that modules cant be slotted easily into both OSMP and Emma, (and obviously into VOS too). Hugh On 11/12/05, Reed Hedges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Begin forwarded message:> From: Chris Marrin <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Date: November 11, 2005 11:33:14 AM EST> To: George Birbilis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Cc: Reed Hedges <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >, Web3D Mailing List> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Subject: Re: [www-vrml] Announcing Emma 0.4>> George Birbilis wrote:>>> see the list archive, it's something with roots in VRML and in Blendo >> from what I understand>> What's Emma?>> The members of the team all started at SGI on CosmoPlayer and> CosmoWorlds. I was involved in the original VRML spec, Murat was > involved in some of the early X3D work, Rob designed much of the user> experience for CosmoPlayer and CosmoWorlds, and Rick managed the> CosmoWorlds project. From there we spread out to Tivo and Sony and now > we have come back to work on what we think of as the next generation> of web-based, rich-media, interactive application platform.>> You can read our white paper at:>> http://emma3d.org/EmmaWhitePaper.pdf>> On this list the most obvious question is, "why not just use X3D"? As> you might imagine, the answer to that question could start a flame war> that would go nowhere. But I would like to give a perspective, which > led to my choice to invent yet another 3D runtime.>> First, let me say that I stepped out of the X3D community because I> felt that the spec process had gotten too cumbersome. I feel now that > VRML was standardized too early, got political too early, and got> corporate involvement too early. Of course, back then we felt that the> barbarians were knocking on our door, so we had to do something, FAST! > Well, the barbarians turned out to be Ken dolls and none of us, not> VRML nor any of its "competitors" were a commercial success. We all> flew too high, our wings melted, and we crashed to earth. >> Ok, enough of the bad metaphors.>> Since then I have been trying to understand how to make a runtime that> was practical. My work at Sony with Blendo was a great experience. We> had a lot of creative ideas and wrote some beautiful apps that were > easily deployable and had some great functionality. But Blendo is> proprietary technolology and Sony did not choose to make it widely> available. Oh well.>> In the Blendo work, we had 3 goals which took us in new directions: 1) > make the scripting language bound to the core, 2) move away from a "3D> engine" to a "rich media engine", and 3) make the runtime an> application engine. (1) meant that we made scripting pervasive in the > language of Blendo, rather than having a separate, and loosly bound,> Script node. It also meant that the object model was common to both> the scripting language (_javascript_) and the node set.> > (2) meant that we had much more audio/video and 2D functionality. Our> 2D model was based on SVG and Flash, rather than a simple "box and> oval" model. We even went as far as to have a Flash importer. Our 2D > rendering was "broadcast" quality, with sub-pixel accuracy, even for> text slanted in 3D. The quality was better than Flash and made it> possible to have very rich and ledgible on-screen presentations. >> (3) meant that we added more keyboard and mouse support, the ability> to know the size of the window, full-screen rendering, and other> window oriented capabilities. It also meant that we had a strong > back-end story, with the ability to parse raw XML, do HTTP PUT and> POST, and a strong HTML page integration story. All this made it> possible to write full online, database-driven apps.> > But, as I said, Sony had no interest in making this a ubiquitous web> technology, so Blendo is locked in the vault.>> Then we got a great opportunity to work with Many One Networks. Emma> shares many of the goals of Blendo, while learning from its mistakes. > For instance, Emma uses Lua as its core scripting language rather than> _javascript_. Lua is many times faster than _javascript_ and has a much> more active developer community. That means we have access to a wide > array of technologies, such as GUI toolkits, XML parsers, socket> libraries and many others. We are also making Emma even more lean than> VRML, X3D or Blendo. This will help reliability and w
Re: [vos-d] SWIG help?
Not all objects can be constructed, for example anything pure virtual
Swig attempts to detect which objects can and cant be constructed. Sometimes it gets it wrong
One way in which it gets wrong are where you instantiate a method in a
derived class that was pure virtual in the base class. If the
method parameters are not textually identical, Swig gets
confused. For example if one has VOP::sometype, and the other has
sometype, swig considers this as too differentypes. Since
swig considers the derived class can no longer be constructed, you get
the error below.
Theres an option on the commandline to change behavior for creatoin of
constructors, but you're probably better off diagnosing why the
constructor is not being created.
Note that this issue is a PAIN IN THE BUTT to diagnose. You might
consider rebuilding swig from scratch and getting it to pump out rather
more debugging information than it does. Otherwise look forward
to a good half hour or more of instantiating all your methods
(replacing = 0 with {} ) and stuff...
HughOn 9/28/05, Reed Hedges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello, after about a week hiatus, I returned to a little bit of work Iwas doing with Python. All of a sudden the SWIG wrapper won't work forme and I don't know why. I may have done something to break it (I have
made a few changes to vos_swig.i etc.) but I can't figure out what. Ijust updated VOS from CVS (excepting my local changes to SWIG of course).Every proxy class in Python that Swig generates now has the following in
its __init__ definition:def __init__(self): raise RuntimeError, "No constructor defined"WTF? This makes it impossible to create any Python objects!Help!Any ideas?Reed
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Re: [vos-d] Web 3D Graphics Formats
Interesting, Hugh On 9/25/05, Reed Hedges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: A comparison of Google searches for VRML, X3D, Shockwave3D and AdobeAtmosphere: http://www.karmanaut.com/virtuality/zeitgeist/VRML comes out way ahead, followed by X3D. Both are actually increasing.Shockwave and Atmosphere are no longer supported by Macromedia or Adobeand are losing. ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Terangreal and Unicode?
utf-8 sounds good fwiw. for swig, you can define your own functions quite eqsily to handle how conversions take place, so you can probably just define your own conversion function for strings? You only have to write the conversion function once, and they're generally quite short. On the other hand if sometimes strings are utf-8 and sometimes they're not, it could get trickier... on the other hand since pure ascii maps exactle to utf-8 thats probably not an issue? Easy to say if it's not me writing the wrappers :-) btw, i broke my wrist rollerblading and i'm typing wiyh one hand which is why there are som any typos... the moral is: don't trust cheap chinese wrist-guards :-/ HughOn 9/9/05, Reed Hedges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Fri, Sep 09, 2005 at 10:16:28AM -0400, Reed Hedges wrote:> Then property just needs wstring methods I guess.with conversion into utf8 to store in the std::string.___ vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Swig
> Anyway I can't possibly agree with Hugh's statement about C# being the same as VB! It's much closer to C++/Java
Well, partly it's to be controversial :-) but I cant help
thinking that C# is a genius marketing from Microsoft for Visual
Basic. VB has generally been an excellent language for business
applications - especially the frontend GUIs - because its fairly quick
to write things in, and who cares if it runs a bit more slowly?
However, VB has zero streetcred (negative streetcred perhaps?), so even
though the VB of today offers full classes, objects and so on, no-one
wants to be seen dead writing it. That's despite the fact that
many people find C++ pretty challenging, what with all those pointers
and things which, lets face it, are really a pain in the butt :-/
So, along comes C#. It sounds like C++, it looks like C++, but
it's easy like VB. Suddenly people can program in VB whilst
having street-cred. What an awesome combo! So, there we go,
all cred to Microsoft for an awesome bit of marketing there!
Not really on topic, but good for a short debate perhaps :-)
Hugh
On 9/2/05, Neil Mosafi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yep, not had much practise with managed C++ as I'm lazy and C# is
so much easier (!), but I guess managed C++ could be the way to go
for integrating with VOS as it can fully utilise the C++ classes.
Still there'd be work required to make the API more ".net like"
On 9/2/05, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Reed Hedges wrote:
> Am I correct that it's no problem to call C++ code or link against a C++
> library from .net? Would the C++ library (libvos for example :) need to> be compiled with CLR (".net extensions") enabled?>> ReedSee my last email :-)Basically, linking managed/unmanaged C++ is easy. Linking unmanged c++ to
any other .Net language requires writing a mananged API wrapper.[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
][ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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http://interreality.org ][
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Re: [vos-d] Swig
What Peter said. I think. It's been a while :-) Random aside: I've been playing with .Net at work; it's kindof cool, though it's basically VB with a C++ syntactic sugar. I dunno why people claim that C# means the end of VB, since C# basically *is* VB. It's still pretty cool though :-) HughOn 9/1/05, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1Welcome back, Reed :-)I haven't touched it for a 2-3 months, but when Hugh Perkins and I wereworking on it we had wrapped most of the core API and were working on wrapping the Property metaobject. I think the most important thing thatneeds to be done is to wrap the rest of the metaobjects (misc, a3dl).I don't remember if we figured out how to implement new metaobjects from Python yet.It's implemented as a Python extension, so you can write VOS programs inpure Python. Another thing to do is to write some glue code toincorporate the Python interpreter so that a C++ app can embed Python code.On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Reed Hedges wrote:> Hello, what's the current state of Swig and Python?>> Thanks>> Reed[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFDF2V0aeHUyhjCHfcRAuXZAJ4ocbPOOBF580NzlJYqIWb8DT+kawCdH6XAG5/pAX0ArnWMrX1DxPr/mfY==y+jn-END PGP SIGNATURE- ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] struggling with Windows...
> It's almost like Microsoft is trying to discourage distributed development (typical of free software) Yeah, it sucks, but hey theres a lot of people out there using Windows, and thats not going to change overnight. > Hi Hugh, haven't heard from you in a while. Last I heard you had been sucked into the World of Warcraft? :-) Back in Paris, took my old job back for a few months for the summer. Hugh On 8/15/05, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1Hi Hugh, haven't heard from you in a while. Last I heard you had beensucked into the World of Warcraft? :-)On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Hugh Perkins wrote: > windebug works ok. Its free, and it basically does everything that> the full Visual Studio debugger does. Obviously it only works with> msvc-compiled objects.Well, it's still a step up from no debugger at all. > You can get the C runtime by installing .net runtime followed by .net> sdk (in that order). It will appear in c:\program files\microsoft> .net sdk (something like that, but definitely on C:, in program > files), independent of the directory you actually chose to install the> .net sdk into.>> The C++ runtime is a little trickier to get. Theres a CERN site that> has the import library for download. >> http://root.cern.ch/root/Procedure/Procedure%20to%20install%20the%20free%20Microsoft%20Visual%20C.htm Argh. Why do they make this so complicated?> Other than that, the visual C++ toolkit is the full, optimizing> compiler that comes with Visual Studio .Net professional/enterprise.> > You can use Cygwin/mingw to use msvc compiler from a configure file,> by using cccl. On the other hand cygwin and mingw have unresolved> issues with forking not releasing memory on certain windows xp > machines (independent of which compiler is used), so using gnumake> could be more reliable.I tried cccl and couldn't get it to do anything useful, so what I ended updoing was writing a makefile script that ran from automake files and produced nmake files. A nice hack and actually worked pretty well, butall in all nmake is fairly useless and most people would prefer to avoidit. What might make more sense would be to do something similar that automatically produces visual studio project files. Of course, then youget into the issue of what _version_ project files you generate, since VS7.1 is not backwards compatible with 7.0, which is not backwards compatible with 6.0. I don't know if VS 8.0 (.NET 2005) projects arecompatible with 7.1.> Theres some detailed info on the Visual C++ Toolkit at> http://manageddreams.com/osmpwiki/index.php?title=Notes_on_Microsoft_Visual_CPP_Toolkit_2003It's almost like Microsoft is trying to discourage distributed development(typical of free software) by making it impossible for any given group of people to be able to collaborate unless they're using exactly the sameversion of exactly the same compiler... ***Argh!!!***[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFDAMIpaeHUyhjCHfcRAiUjAJ4jE8oVy22WVcd+TO31Z4ZZb43oBQCeISPer6OBWp6avJfaH/OKT9rWeV4==/ecl-END PGP SIGNATURE-___ vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] struggling with Windows...
msvcrt.dll is the old pre-.net dll, msvcr71.dll is the .net dll The import libraries have teh same name in each case (msvcrt.lib, msvcprt.lib) but point towards a differently named dll, one of those above, depending on the compiler version.On 8/15/05, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, res wrote: > Don't know if you have tried yet, but check out gdb-6.3 (from mingw.org,> a bit down the downloads list). I had to do some (little) debugging> recently, and while gdb-5.something failed to get CS plugin debug info,> 6.3 worked well in this regard.Ok, good suggestion. I'll look into that.By the way, when I run anything in gdb, I get the following warning over and over and over again:SIGTRAP:Invalid Address specified to RtlFreeHeap( XX, XX )I thought maybe it was the multiple-heaps issue with Windows DLLs, exceptthat a) I can continue and it doesn't crash and b) I'm pretty sure mingw compiles everything against the same C runtime DLL (msvcrt.dll), so thereshould only *be* one heap. Have you ever seen this before?> There are the "Debugging Tools" which also contain a GUI debugger, > WinDbg. I never used it, though.Aha, I'll look for that.> The VC 2003 Toolkit is limited in other regards, too. For example, it> doesn't get shipped with the libraries to link with the DLL version of > the C runtime (msvcr71.dll). If you google around, you'll find> instructions and workarounds to use the VC Toolkit for a number of OSS> projects - but it seems it's actually a bit of work to get the VC > Toolkit properly support a project.What's the difference between msvcrt.dll and msvcr71.dll? I thought thelatter is just a newer version shipped with the newer compiler, or is itmore complicated than that? > What limits do you mean? At least CrystalSpace compiles with it. There> were some rough edges first, though, but I eventually sorted them out.Well, specifically the inability to add include search paths, so I couldn't point it at the Win32 SDK. I eventually googled and found theinstructions on a Microsoft developers fucking BLOG (great documentationguys), but when I tried it it didn't work (although I didn't spend that much time tinkering with it).I would very much appreciate some hints on how to compile Crystal Spacewith VC++ Express Beta 2.[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFDAL8GaeHUyhjCHfcRAp8aAJ92nMVuqajQwGtmt5RU4aNFQg5AiQCfTpfuJxhmBL9/T0FP5NRAbjVMQG4==FjBl-END PGP SIGNATURE-___ vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] struggling with Windows...
windebug works ok. Its free, and it basically does everything that the full Visual Studio debugger does. Obviously it only works with msvc-compiled objects. > The VC 2003 Toolkit is limited in other regards, too. For example, it > doesn't get shipped with the libraries to link with the DLL version of > the C runtime (msvcr71.dll). If you google around, you'll find > instructions and workarounds to use the VC Toolkit for a number of OSS > projects - but it seems it's actually a bit of work to get the VC > Toolkit properly support a project. You can get the C runtime by installing .net runtime followed by .net sdk (in that order). It will appear in c:\program files\microsoft .net sdk (something like that, but definitely on C:, in program files), independent of the directory you actually chose to install the .net sdk into. The C++ runtime is a little trickier to get. Theres a CERN site that has the import library for download. http://root.cern.ch/root/Procedure/Procedure%20to%20install%20the%20free%20Microsoft%20Visual%20C.htm Other than that, the visual C++ toolkit is the full, optimizing compiler that comes with Visual Studio .Net professional/enterprise. You can use Cygwin/mingw to use msvc compiler from a configure file, by using cccl. On the other hand cygwin and mingw have unresolved issues with forking not releasing memory on certain windows xp machines (independent of which compiler is used), so using gnumake could be more reliable. Theres some detailed info on the Visual C++ Toolkit at http://manageddreams.com/osmpwiki/index.php?title=Notes_on_Microsoft_Visual_CPP_Toolkit_2003 Hugh On 8/14/05, res <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 14.08.2005 09:59, Peter Amstutz wrote: > > The compiler situation on Windows is being a real pain in the ass. > > Currently I am using the MinGW/Msys toolchain, and it works well enough. > > However, the debugger support is terrible -- gdb is basically useless, > > which is making it quite a bit harder to track down bugs. > > Don't know if you have tried yet, but check out gdb-6.3 (from mingw.org, > a bit down the downloads list). I had to do some (little) debugging > recently, and while gdb-5.something failed to get CS plugin debug info, > 6.3 worked well in this regard. > > > it's not sufficient on its own. In addition, I don't know if there is a > > console-mode debugger. As far as I know (I'd love to be proven wrong > > :-) it's only possible to do debugging via Visual Studio... > > There are the "Debugging Tools" which also contain a GUI debugger, > WinDbg. I never used it, though. > > The VC 2003 Toolkit is limited in other regards, too. For example, it > doesn't get shipped with the libraries to link with the DLL version of > the C runtime (msvcr71.dll). If you google around, you'll find > instructions and workarounds to use the VC Toolkit for a number of OSS > projects - but it seems it's actually a bit of work to get the VC > Toolkit properly support a project. > > > However, the beta seems to be severely limited in a > > couple crucial ways that make it a pain in the ass to use, so it's not > > an option for the time being. When VS 2005 comes out for real, we'll > > see... > > What limits do you mean? At least CrystalSpace compiles with it. There > were some rough edges first, though, but I eventually sorted them out. > > -f.r. > > > > ___ > vos-d mailing list > vos-d@interreality.org > http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d > > > > ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
