On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, James Graham wrote:
Henri Sivonen wrote:
On Aug 28, 2008, at 15:00, Russell Leggett wrote:
I actually think that using custom microformat-like conventions with
classes or tags is really not as robust a solution as what is being
attempted with RDFa (I honestly
On Aug 28, 2008, at 19:46, Ben Adida wrote:
Henri Sivonen wrote:
Same goes with MySpace widgets. Paste one thing, get the widget.
Who's
going to go paste two things in two different places? It's really
important to make HTML the carrier of this information.
It seems to me that this line of
On Aug 28, 2008, at 19:49, Ben Adida wrote:
Henri Sivonen wrote:
Having
something-other-than-data-curie=dc:http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/;
How about
div prefix=dc:http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/;
h2 property=dc:titleA Fun Article/h2
by h3 property=dc:creatorBen Adida/h3
/div
?
This
Ben Adida wrote:
Shannon wrote:
link rel=vocabulary
href=http://some.official.vocabulary/1.1/metadata.cm;
Not workable, as this in the HEAD of the document and oftentimes we
simply can't expect users to be able to modify the head of the document
(widgets, blog engines where you can
] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
Ben Adida wrote:
Shannon wrote:
* You can store the metadata locally or remotely and in any format (ie,
RDF, ID3) that can be parsed by the agent to key/value pairs.
Key/value pairs are not enough. We need the subject, too. Triples
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think you see the problem to be solved as RDF-in-HTML. I would prefer
the problem defined as Metadata-in-HTML.
It seems to me that everything they want to do could be done with the
data attribute except that attribute is meant
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think you see the problem to be solved as RDF-in-HTML. I would prefer
the problem defined as Metadata-in-HTML.
It seems to me that everything they want to do could
: [whatwg] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think you see the problem to be solved as RDF-in-HTML. I would prefer
the problem defined as Metadata-in-HTML.
It seems to me that everything they want to do could be done
Greg Houston wrote:
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Kristof Zelechovski
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Rather meta-property than metadata-property, otherwise seems quite
reasonable.
Chris
div id=Sarah
meta-namespace=foo:http://mysite.com/foo/;
Henri Sivonen wrote:
Isn't the whole point of splitting URIs into two and introducing syntax
into later putting the part back together that the length of the URI
gets amortized when the same prefix is used many times even though in
the case of a single occurrence, the indirection syntax
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Ben Adida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So it seems you agree with the principles of adding one (or more)
attributes. But the requirement here, for Creative Commons and Digital
Bazaar and the UK National Archives and ... is to get proper RDF in
there. So once you
Zelechovski; Eduard Pascual; Shannon
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
So it seems you agree with the principles of adding one (or more)
attributes. But the requirement here, for Creative Commons and Digital
Bazaar and the UK National Archives and ... is to get proper RDF
Greg Houston wrote:
Setting a precedent for adding multiple new properties to be added to
most of the elements for one metadata specification is something I
hope does not happen.
I think you're confused about this being one metadata specification.
RDF is well established and enables you to
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kristof Zelechovski
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:52 PM
To: 'Ben Adida'; 'Greg Houston'
Cc: whatwg@lists.whatwg.org; 'Eduard Pascual'; 'Shannon'
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
I think
(Note: I've been discussing just such a CSS-like rdf format with Ben
offlist, inspired directly by Eduard's proposal earlier.)
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Ben Adida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Greg Houston wrote:
My suggestion keeps the metadata code tidy, and more human readable.
I'm going to keep my answer somewhat brief because Manu and I have
privately discussed wrapping up this thread so we don't take up too much
of people's time. I'll focus on simple points.
(Note: I've been discussing just such a CSS-like rdf format with Ben
offlist, inspired directly by Eduard's
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Ben Adida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm going to keep my answer somewhat brief because Manu and I have
privately discussed wrapping up this thread so we don't take up too much
of people's time. I'll focus on simple points.
(Note: I've been discussing just
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Is this approximately your intended message? If so, then how do you
square this with the plain-to-see usefulness and heavy adoption of CSS?
CSS is great: it actually separates semantics and presentation.
I also feel the comparison to CSS is quite exact - with CSS you
-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Adida
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 7:05 PM
To: Henri Sivonen
Cc: WHAT working group
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
Shouldn't a standards organization like WHATWG look beyond just the
browser vendors
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Ben Adida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Is this approximately your intended message? If so, then how do you
square this with the plain-to-see usefulness and heavy adoption of CSS?
CSS is great: it actually separates semantics and
Shannon wrote:
However to be on par with RDFa this proposal simply needs a CSS-like
@import statement or vocabulary property and possibly an inline
attribute as Silvia suggested.
link rel=vocabulary
href=http://some.official.vocabulary/1.1/metadata.cm;
Not workable, as this in the HEAD of
I consider the following to be analogous:
Presentation / Semantics / Behaviour
rel=stylesheet / rel=transformation / script src=...
style=.../ RDFa / on*=...
That is, if we consider an external stylesheet linked to with
rel=stylesheet as effectively being a set of
On Aug 28, 2008, at 05:59, Ben Adida wrote:
Same goes with MySpace widgets. Paste one thing, get the widget. Who's
going to go paste two things in two different places? It's really
important to make HTML the carrier of this information.
It seems to me that this line of reasoning should lead
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:00:09 +0200, Russell Leggett
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I actually think that using custom microformat-like conventions with
classes or tags is really not as robust a solution as what is being
attempted with RDFa (I honestly did not know much about RDFa before this
I think some of you got my point quite better than others; and maybe I
should clarify the idea. I see no issue with having some attributes to
embed semantics inline within the HTML, the same way we have style to
embed presentation. The issue is about *forcing* these semantics,
which are not the
On Aug 28, 2008, at 15:00, Russell Leggett wrote:
I actually think that using custom microformat-like conventions with
classes or tags is really not as robust a solution as what is being
attempted with RDFa (I honestly did not know much about RDFa before
this conversation). However, while
Henri Sivonen wrote:
On Aug 28, 2008, at 15:00, Russell Leggett wrote:
I actually think that using custom microformat-like conventions with
classes or tags is really not as robust a solution as what is being
attempted with RDFa (I honestly did not know much about RDFa before
this
James Graham wrote:
As Anne and Julian have pointed out, that's not a use of data-*
attributes permitted by the spec.
FWIW I think we have a problem in that multiple independent people have
seen data-* and assumed they are for externally readable metadata. If
Right. That is a problem.
the
Eduard Pascual [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
style and script are used to define document-wide styles and
behaviors. Once again, we lack something to achieve this for
semantics.
But we do have such a tool - GRDDL. GRDDL provides a method to
extract semantics from existing HTML structures (e.g.
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:13 AM, Eduard Pascual [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
I think some of you got my point quite better than others; and maybe I
should clarify the idea. I see no issue with having some attributes to
embed semantics inline within the HTML, the same way we have style to
embed
-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eduard Pascual
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 2:13 PM
To: whatwg@lists.whatwg.org
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
I think some of you got my point quite better than others; and maybe I
should
:37 AM
To: Shannon
Cc: whatwg@lists.whatwg.org; Eduard Pascual
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
@typeof. By the way, we considered using @class instead of @typeof, but
we met with serious opposition from folks who didn't want us to mess
with the existing uses of @class.
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Kristof Zelechovski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
javascript:goBack(); is a labeled statement in JavaScript and the label
is
javascript. What purpose does it serve in your inline code?
SCRIPT[type=text/xml] can be used for semantics, including RDF.
Inline
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Those folks must *really* hate microformats, then, as they pack *all* of
their semantics into @class.
No, the conflict was about putting URIs and CURIEs into attributes that
were previously free-form and thus could cause confusion.
And it was a good argument, we are
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Ben Adida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Those folks must *really* hate microformats, then, as they pack *all* of
their semantics into @class.
No, the conflict was about putting URIs and CURIEs into attributes that
were previously
Henri Sivonen wrote:
Same goes with MySpace widgets. Paste one thing, get the widget. Who's
going to go paste two things in two different places? It's really
important to make HTML the carrier of this information.
It seems to me that this line of reasoning should lead to using
identifiers
Henri Sivonen wrote:
Having
something-other-than-data-curie=dc:http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/;
How about
div prefix=dc:http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/;
h2 property=dc:titleA Fun Article/h2
by h3 property=dc:creatorBen Adida/h3
/div
?
This is one option we've been exploring for
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
THIS. This was my unarticulable objection to RDFa. I understand that
carrying the data around as close to the relevant html as possible is
good, and making it possible to embed things like CC licenses with all
relevant metadata in a single copypaste operation is
Of Ben Adida
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 6:15 PM
To: Kristof Zelechovski
Cc: whatwg@lists.whatwg.org; 'Eduard Pascual'; 'Shannon'
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
An element can belong to multiple classes, some of them semantic and some
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
The proposition that classification should be used for presentation only is
definitely not sound. I agree you cannot make everybody happy - but that
does not mean you have to make all losers happy.
Sadly, they were not tatooed loser when the working group discussed
in most cases.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Adida
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 8:37 AM
To: Shannon
Cc: whatwg@lists.whatwg.org; Eduard Pascual
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
Shannon wrote
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
If the blog site allows users to use a nonstandard license, it should
support the metadata model you propose, i.e. it should provide a way to
inject that information in the HEAD. However, when I post to a public
forum, I have to obey the forum's rules, which include
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Kristof Zelechovski
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
I am not opposing local metadata; I have already explained you can use the
SCRIPT element for the purpose. I only say that metadata should not be
inside content they describe in order to avoid circularity. This is a
from the past and the semantic Web
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Kristof Zelechovski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I am not opposing local metadata; I have already explained you can use the
SCRIPT element for the purpose. I only say that metadata should not be
inside content they describe in order
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
I am not opposing local metadata; I have already explained you can use the
SCRIPT element for the purpose. I only say that metadata should not be
inside content they describe in order to avoid circularity. This is a
philosophical objection, not a technical one.
Of Ben Adida
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 9:46 PM
To: Kristof Zelechovski
Cc: whatwg@lists.whatwg.org; 'Eduard Pascual'; 'Shannon'
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Ghosts from the past and the semantic Web
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
I am not opposing local metadata; I have already explained you can use
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
There is a difference between the general possibility of making nonsense
statements and an invitation to make them. In my opinion, recommending
metadata about content within itself is such an invitation.
Where do you see an invitation that invites more circularity
Eduard Pascual wrote:
I would like to encourage this community to learn from what it has
already been done in the past, check what worked, and see why it
worked; then apply it to the problem at hand. If for presentation CSS
worked (and I really think it did; if somebody disagrees I invite you
to
Shannon wrote:
I think you were on to something with the CSS-like approach. Ian has
stated earlier that class should be considered a generic categorisation
element rather than only a CSS hook.
Three things:
1) specifying the semantics only in a separate file rules out a very
important use
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:27 PM, Ben Adida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Shannon wrote:
I think you were on to something with the CSS-like approach. Ian has
stated earlier that class should be considered a generic categorisation
element rather than only a CSS hook.
Three things:
1) specifying
Silvia Pfeiffer wrote:
1) specifying the semantics only in a separate file rules out a very
important use case: the ability to simply paste a chunk of HTML into
your site and have it carry with it all metadata. Think MySpace, Google
widgets, Creative Commons, This is crucial to the design
Ben Adida wrote:
Shannon wrote:
I think you were on to something with the CSS-like approach. Ian has
stated earlier that class should be considered a generic categorisation
element rather than only a CSS hook.
Three things:
1) specifying the semantics only in a separate file rules
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