Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Deryck Chan]

I look forward to "hug me" / "don't touch me" stickers being issued next
year Q(^_^Q)

Indeed we do "don't photograph me" stickers already so "personal space
needed" stickers sound like a natural extension.

Deryck
(multicultural / "hug me")

On 27 July 2018 at 15:31, Sam Oyeyele  wrote:

> I believe the best way to avoid this kind of situation in the future, is
> to have tags specifically to indicate a need for personal space or
> something.
>
> From what I have read so far, Romaine has done nothing "out of the
> ordinary" (based on my cultural perspective); and he doesn't deserve this
> kind of treatment/sanction/punishment/etc.
>
> I should also state that I have met Romaine a couple of times, and he is
> indeed a very nice man, who always means the best.
>
> Sam.
>
> On 25 Jul 2018 16:41, Deryck Chan  wrote:
>
> This is the second time I remember that the Friendly Space Policy was
> invoked to remove a Wikimania attendee from a situation, presumably because
> of in-person misconduct on their part, where the removal was made public
> but the reason of removal was kept secret.
>
> The problem with such secretive invocations of Friendly Space is that it
> is very difficult, as Reem and others have pointed out, to not see this as
> a punishment.
>
> I understand that it is very difficult to balance the specific, personal
> sensitivities and cultural preferences of several hundred people from
> different cultures. But as this discussion has shown, it is
> counter-productive to use Friendly Space this way, because other
> Wikimaniacs are left worrying what the appropriate behaviour is supposed to
> be.
>
> I don't know the details of this incident because it wasn't public. But
> from what I know of Romaine from previous Wikimanias, I'm disappointed that
> this incident couldn't have been handled behind the scenes with T and the
> people involved. The fact that Romaine felt the need to go public about his
> removal as an organiser showed mis-handling of process.
>
> Well, actually the previous time was 6 years ago, so maybe we're doing
> well. We did try reforming the friendly space policy around 2013-14 but
> couldn't agree on something better at the time... The doors of improvement
> always stay open for the Wikimedia movement.
>
> --Deryck
>
> On 20 July 2018 at 11:28, James Alexander 
> wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> I am, as always, sorry, that this has spilled out into the public sphere
> more I do not think that is ever a good thing as discussion of specific
> situations like this only serves to increase discomfort, make people feel
> even less safe and make victims of everyone.
>
> Event Safety and Friendly Spaces is a top priority of any conference
> whether big or small as well as one of the issues that can be most
> difficult to deal with since it is always a balance of situations, feelings
> and people who are frequently acting in good faith. I can confirm that
> Trust & Safety was involved here and, like most people who are working on
> Friendly Spaces, we never aim to take serious actions if we are able to
> avoid it. Most issues are dealt with by local attendees or organizing
> volunteers with only short reminders or chats and escalate from there only
> as things become more serious or repetitive. The same is true for T who
> generally doesn't even become involved until it is a larger situation. I
> will admit that whenever a local organizer or volunteer is involved the
> seriousness is increased some because they are, rightly or wrongly, seen as
> in a position of influence and power which amplifies any and all issues
> that arise. It does not, however, change the focus of trying to take the
> least amount of actions possible.
>
> I will be the first to admit (and did when talking to Romaine yesterday)
> that he has done an enormous amount of great work for events and nothing we
> did was meant to demean that even if it felt that way to Romaine. Like any
> Friendly Spaces actions nothing we did was meant as a punishment (even
> though, again, I understand it can feel that way) but was done because we
> felt they were the best thing to do for event safety. I can certainly
> guarantee that the decision was not taken lightly.
>
> As many have noted the entire story is not out in the open and, honestly,
> won't be. I know that won't make everyone happy but unfortunately is almost
> always going to be the case for specific cases. If you want to speak about
> process questions and the like, the team (including myself) is certainly
> willing to do so. We have a table on the 2nd floor or you can grab one of
> us around the conference.
>
> James
>
> *James Alexander*
> Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Sam Oyeyele]

I believe the best way to avoid this kind of situation in the future, is to 
have tags specifically to indicate a need for personal space or something.

From what I have read so far, Romaine has done nothing "out of the ordinary" 
(based on my cultural perspective); and he doesn't deserve this kind of 
treatment/sanction/punishment/etc.

I should also state that I have met Romaine a couple of times, and he is indeed 
a very nice man, who always means the best.

Sam.

On 25 Jul 2018 16:41, Deryck Chan  wrote:
This is the second time I remember that the Friendly Space Policy was invoked 
to remove a Wikimania attendee from a situation, presumably because of 
in-person misconduct on their part, where the removal was made public but the 
reason of removal was kept secret.

The problem with such secretive invocations of Friendly Space is that it is 
very difficult, as Reem and others have pointed out, to not see this as a 
punishment.

I understand that it is very difficult to balance the specific, personal 
sensitivities and cultural preferences of several hundred people from different 
cultures. But as this discussion has shown, it is counter-productive to use 
Friendly Space this way, because other Wikimaniacs are left worrying what the 
appropriate behaviour is supposed to be.

I don't know the details of this incident because it wasn't public. But from 
what I know of Romaine from previous Wikimanias, I'm disappointed that this 
incident couldn't have been handled behind the scenes with T and the people 
involved. The fact that Romaine felt the need to go public about his removal as 
an organiser showed mis-handling of process.

Well, actually the previous time was 6 years ago, so maybe we're doing well. We 
did try reforming the friendly space policy around 2013-14 but couldn't agree 
on something better at the time... The doors of improvement always stay open 
for the Wikimedia movement.

--Deryck

On 20 July 2018 at 11:28, James Alexander 
mailto:jalexan...@wikimedia.org>> wrote:
Hey all,

I am, as always, sorry, that this has spilled out into the public sphere more I 
do not think that is ever a good thing as discussion of specific situations 
like this only serves to increase discomfort, make people feel even less safe 
and make victims of everyone.

Event Safety and Friendly Spaces is a top priority of any conference whether 
big or small as well as one of the issues that can be most difficult to deal 
with since it is always a balance of situations, feelings and people who are 
frequently acting in good faith. I can confirm that Trust & Safety was involved 
here and, like most people who are working on Friendly Spaces, we never aim to 
take serious actions if we are able to avoid it. Most issues are dealt with by 
local attendees or organizing volunteers with only short reminders or chats and 
escalate from there only as things become more serious or repetitive. The same 
is true for T who generally doesn't even become involved until it is a larger 
situation. I will admit that whenever a local organizer or volunteer is 
involved the seriousness is increased some because they are, rightly or 
wrongly, seen as in a position of influence and power which amplifies any and 
all issues that arise. It does not, however, change the focus of trying to take 
the least amount of actions possible.

I will be the first to admit (and did when talking to Romaine yesterday) that 
he has done an enormous amount of great work for events and nothing we did was 
meant to demean that even if it felt that way to Romaine. Like any Friendly 
Spaces actions nothing we did was meant as a punishment (even though, again, I 
understand it can feel that way) but was done because we felt they were the 
best thing to do for event safety. I can certainly guarantee that the decision 
was not taken lightly.

As many have noted the entire story is not out in the open and, honestly, won't 
be. I know that won't make everyone happy but unfortunately is almost always 
going to be the case for specific cases. If you want to speak about process 
questions and the like, the team (including myself) is certainly willing to do 
so. We have a table on the 2nd floor or you can grab one of us around the 
conference.

James

James Alexander
Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
Wikimedia Foundation



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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Deryck Chan]

This is the second time I remember that the Friendly Space Policy was
invoked to remove a Wikimania attendee from a situation, presumably because
of in-person misconduct on their part, where the removal was made public
but the reason of removal was kept secret.

The problem with such secretive invocations of Friendly Space is that it is
very difficult, as Reem and others have pointed out, to not see this as a
punishment.

I understand that it is very difficult to balance the specific, personal
sensitivities and cultural preferences of several hundred people from
different cultures. But as this discussion has shown, it is
counter-productive to use Friendly Space this way, because other
Wikimaniacs are left worrying what the appropriate behaviour is supposed to
be.

I don't know the details of this incident because it wasn't public. But
from what I know of Romaine from previous Wikimanias, I'm disappointed that
this incident couldn't have been handled behind the scenes with T and the
people involved. The fact that Romaine felt the need to go public about his
removal as an organiser showed mis-handling of process.

Well, actually the previous time was 6 years ago, so maybe we're doing
well. We did try reforming the friendly space policy around 2013-14 but
couldn't agree on something better at the time... The doors of improvement
always stay open for the Wikimedia movement.

--Deryck

On 20 July 2018 at 11:28, James Alexander  wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I am, as always, sorry, that this has spilled out into the public sphere
> more I do not think that is ever a good thing as discussion of specific
> situations like this only serves to increase discomfort, make people feel
> even less safe and make victims of everyone.
>
> Event Safety and Friendly Spaces is a top priority of any conference
> whether big or small as well as one of the issues that can be most
> difficult to deal with since it is always a balance of situations, feelings
> and people who are frequently acting in good faith. I can confirm that
> Trust & Safety was involved here and, like most people who are working on
> Friendly Spaces, we never aim to take serious actions if we are able to
> avoid it. Most issues are dealt with by local attendees or organizing
> volunteers with only short reminders or chats and escalate from there only
> as things become more serious or repetitive. The same is true for T who
> generally doesn't even become involved until it is a larger situation. I
> will admit that whenever a local organizer or volunteer is involved the
> seriousness is increased some because they are, rightly or wrongly, seen as
> in a position of influence and power which amplifies any and all issues
> that arise. It does not, however, change the focus of trying to take the
> least amount of actions possible.
>
> I will be the first to admit (and did when talking to Romaine yesterday)
> that he has done an enormous amount of great work for events and nothing we
> did was meant to demean that even if it felt that way to Romaine. Like any
> Friendly Spaces actions nothing we did was meant as a punishment (even
> though, again, I understand it can feel that way) but was done because we
> felt they were the best thing to do for event safety. I can certainly
> guarantee that the decision was not taken lightly.
>
> As many have noted the entire story is not out in the open and, honestly,
> won't be. I know that won't make everyone happy but unfortunately is almost
> always going to be the case for specific cases. If you want to speak about
> process questions and the like, the team (including myself) is certainly
> willing to do so. We have a table on the 2nd floor or you can grab one of
> us around the conference.
>
> James
>
> *James Alexander*
> Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Ilario Valdelli]

Ciao Romaine,

I have not understood (really)... but people cannot tell you, politely, 
"don't stay so close to me" or "don't touch my shoulders" or "don't 
speak so loud" instead of reporting to someone else?


Kind regards


On 19/07/2018 21:30, Romaine Wiki wrote:


- People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where 
that was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, 
not my intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do 
hear myself much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus 
.
I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, 
to tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...


- People have said that with some people I have been standing to close 
to them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that 
gave anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my 
bad hearing I might also stand closer to people.
I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to 
respect the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the 
conference to feel well.





--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch



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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[John Hendrik Weitzmann]

jeez*, if people feel offended by a loud voice, and instead of moving away
are prompted to formally complain, and if a touch on the shoulder is
considered harrassment, something is deeply wrong. Let's _not_ cultivate
sensitivitism by way of a badges-turned set of interdictions. It's like in
constitutional law: Practical concordance = people's sensitivities must
take 2nd place where to "respect" them becomes unworkable for the rest of
the world.


*bearing in mind what Lodewijk said about not knowing the full story


Am Fr., 20. Juli 2018 um 19:12 Uhr schrieb Mina Theofilatou <
saintfevr...@gmail.com>:

> I have just read through the long thread of replies and I am appalled that
> Romaine was asked to "step down" for safety concerns of an individual (or
> several individuals?) arising from his standing too close or speaking too
> loud or whatever. Is THIS really a behaviour that can put someone at risk?
> And if a risk has been identified out of such, may we please be informed by
> the SuSa team not of the details, but at least of the supposed risk?
>
> Romaine is the first person I ever met at my first Wikimania (Mexico City)
> and he is always on his feet all day doing a million different things to
> facilitate the event. He is sweet, helpful, with a great sense of humour
> and I can't imagine that anyone who has been to so much as a single
> Wikimania would think otherwise.  So, very plainly and openly, as we are
> accustomed in the open movement we so passionately follow, may we please
> have an explanation as to which "friendly space" code of conduct he has
> breached to deserve being asked to step down? And on top of that, being
> further stressed by the criticism that he has been e in ths thread? The
> only GOOD thing that I see as possibly resulting from this discussion was
> what Florence (if I recall correctly) suggested: a sticker indicating which
> people are offended by loud speaking and close proximity, so that,this
> doesn't happen again (a sticker which I will most certainly NOT be sporting
> on my badge)
>
> Romaine, a big THANK YOU for all that you do for Wikimanias. I always look
> forward to "brushing shoulders" with you. A big warm hug from your Greek
> friend :)
>
> Mina
>
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 18:21 Federico Leva (Nemo), 
> wrote:
>
>> Devouard (gmail), 20/07/2018 12:18:
>> > So, I am thinking that... whilst some of us put little stickers on our
>> > badges to indicate we do not want to be taken in picture, perhaps we
>> > need to consider also little stickers to put on our badges to indicate
>> > that we prefer "a certain physical distance" and warn others that we
>> may
>> > be sensitive to closeness so they be aware it might be an issue ?
>>
>> +1, this is a suggestion worth exploring (is there a feedback page
>> already on the wiki, where to add it?).
>>
>> If you see a "fi-N" on someone's badge you may remember the advice
>> "Never hug, kiss or touch a Finn"
>> , but not
>> everybody may be expected to walk around with a cultural etiquette
>> matrix for 200 cultures.
>>
>> (At Wikimania I usually also wear Wikiquote and sister project stickers
>> and pins so that people are warned that, if they use language which
>> assumes "Wikipedia" or "English [Wikipedia]" or other discriminations of
>> some projects, I will definitely take offense and object to it.)
>>
>> Federico
>>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Mina Theofilatou]

I have just read through the long thread of replies and I am appalled that
Romaine was asked to "step down" for safety concerns of an individual (or
several individuals?) arising from his standing too close or speaking too
loud or whatever. Is THIS really a behaviour that can put someone at risk?
And if a risk has been identified out of such, may we please be informed by
the SuSa team not of the details, but at least of the supposed risk?

Romaine is the first person I ever met at my first Wikimania (Mexico City)
and he is always on his feet all day doing a million different things to
facilitate the event. He is sweet, helpful, with a great sense of humour
and I can't imagine that anyone who has been to so much as a single
Wikimania would think otherwise.  So, very plainly and openly, as we are
accustomed in the open movement we so passionately follow, may we please
have an explanation as to which "friendly space" code of conduct he has
breached to deserve being asked to step down? And on top of that, being
further stressed by the criticism that he has been e in ths thread? The
only GOOD thing that I see as possibly resulting from this discussion was
what Florence (if I recall correctly) suggested: a sticker indicating which
people are offended by loud speaking and close proximity, so that,this
doesn't happen again (a sticker which I will most certainly NOT be sporting
on my badge)

Romaine, a big THANK YOU for all that you do for Wikimanias. I always look
forward to "brushing shoulders" with you. A big warm hug from your Greek
friend :)

Mina

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 18:21 Federico Leva (Nemo),  wrote:

> Devouard (gmail), 20/07/2018 12:18:
> > So, I am thinking that... whilst some of us put little stickers on our
> > badges to indicate we do not want to be taken in picture, perhaps we
> > need to consider also little stickers to put on our badges to indicate
> > that we prefer "a certain physical distance" and warn others that we may
> > be sensitive to closeness so they be aware it might be an issue ?
>
> +1, this is a suggestion worth exploring (is there a feedback page
> already on the wiki, where to add it?).
>
> If you see a "fi-N" on someone's badge you may remember the advice
> "Never hug, kiss or touch a Finn"
> , but not
> everybody may be expected to walk around with a cultural etiquette
> matrix for 200 cultures.
>
> (At Wikimania I usually also wear Wikiquote and sister project stickers
> and pins so that people are warned that, if they use language which
> assumes "Wikipedia" or "English [Wikipedia]" or other discriminations of
> some projects, I will definitely take offense and object to it.)
>
> Federico
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Devouard (gmail), 20/07/2018 12:18:
So, I am thinking that... whilst some of us put little stickers on our 
badges to indicate we do not want to be taken in picture, perhaps we 
need to consider also little stickers to put on our badges to indicate 
that we prefer "a certain physical distance" and warn others that we may 
be sensitive to closeness so they be aware it might be an issue ?


+1, this is a suggestion worth exploring (is there a feedback page 
already on the wiki, where to add it?).


If you see a "fi-N" on someone's badge you may remember the advice 
"Never hug, kiss or touch a Finn" 
, but not 
everybody may be expected to walk around with a cultural etiquette 
matrix for 200 cultures.


(At Wikimania I usually also wear Wikiquote and sister project stickers 
and pins so that people are warned that, if they use language which 
assumes "Wikipedia" or "English [Wikipedia]" or other discriminations of 
some projects, I will definitely take offense and object to it.)


Federico

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Romaine Wiki]

Dear James,

As I made clear in our conversation yesterday, this happened to me, but has
can and could have happened to almost everyone of the other participants at
this conference.

Yes, we need to respect the privacy of the people who reported they were
uncomfortable, and it is a very very very sad thing they have been
uncomfortable.
But this whole situation makes me very uncomfortable. I am trying to be
always as friendly as possible, to help anyone the best as possible, it is
sad for me to feel that we do not know any longer if you help someone if
you are then still safe or getting reported about you.

In the past 24 hours I have been touched (hands, hugs, hand on shoulder,
etc) over 50 times by various people, many I know, some I don't. Only once
I was asked if I was fine with it. In many regions in the world it is
normal to shake hands, hug someone, etc etc. We do need to be aware of that
in some cultures this is not common, as well as individuals do not find it
comfortable. We also need to be aware that we as humans cannot switch off
the way we are. We need to create a friendly space for *everyone*.
To my feeling the focus is too much on not giving some people a bad
feeling, but we also must respect the nature of people, how people normally
are, because if we don't, we create an unfriendly space for them.

Now too many people are scared to touch someone else, scared to make a
mistake. That is bad. It is good to have awareness of cultural differences,
it is good if everyone tries to respect each others personal space.

It is not right that if someone tries to be nice, this gives a bad feeling
to the other.
If then someone gets punished ("action is taken"), we are putting the
health of our community at risk.

You said to me in our conversation yesterday that you do not recommend me
to send the earlier mail I did send. I can understand why you ask this, but
for my feeling I had no other choice. Every day many many people greet me
and ask me how I am feeling. If I am feeling bad, I say so. I am too
emotional to explain it to every one of them.
A second reason I raised attention for what happened to me, is because the
whole goal of the friendly space policy is to create a friendly space,
while now it is actually an unfriendly space for many just because of the
action you took.
In my case, you say it is not punishment, but it has bad consequences that
are only a placebo and do not help to solve the situation and certainly
does not improve the situation. That is a very bad thing.

The friendly space policy is intended to create a friendly space for
everyone, now however many perceive an unfriendly space, that is a serious
problem. We need to get a better and balanced situation in how is dealt
with these situations.

At this conference it might be a bit early to discuss the topic in general,
but still I think it we need to be aware that this problem exist.
I also think we need to have a dialogue in our movement about this kind of
situations where people perceive harassment while the other has the best
intentions.


Romaine



2018-07-20 12:28 GMT+02:00 James Alexander :

> Hey all,
>
> I am, as always, sorry, that this has spilled out into the public sphere
> more I do not think that is ever a good thing as discussion of specific
> situations like this only serves to increase discomfort, make people feel
> even less safe and make victims of everyone.
>
> Event Safety and Friendly Spaces is a top priority of any conference
> whether big or small as well as one of the issues that can be most
> difficult to deal with since it is always a balance of situations, feelings
> and people who are frequently acting in good faith. I can confirm that
> Trust & Safety was involved here and, like most people who are working on
> Friendly Spaces, we never aim to take serious actions if we are able to
> avoid it. Most issues are dealt with by local attendees or organizing
> volunteers with only short reminders or chats and escalate from there only
> as things become more serious or repetitive. The same is true for T who
> generally doesn't even become involved until it is a larger situation. I
> will admit that whenever a local organizer or volunteer is involved the
> seriousness is increased some because they are, rightly or wrongly, seen as
> in a position of influence and power which amplifies any and all issues
> that arise. It does not, however, change the focus of trying to take the
> least amount of actions possible.
>
> I will be the first to admit (and did when talking to Romaine yesterday)
> that he has done an enormous amount of great work for events and nothing we
> did was meant to demean that even if it felt that way to Romaine. Like any
> Friendly Spaces actions nothing we did was meant as a punishment (even
> though, again, I understand it can feel that way) but was done because we
> felt they were the best thing to do for event safety. I can certainly
> guarantee that the decision was not taken lightly.
>

Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Reem Al-Kashif]

"and yet for the comfort and safety of everyone else, they may be requested
to step down from their volunteering, and that's ok."
" the decision was never meant as a punishment."

hmmm

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 13:53, Siebrand Mazeland  wrote:

> Please. Just. Stop.
>
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-- 

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Siebrand Mazeland]

Please. Just. Stop.

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Dariusz Jemielniak]

hi,

a lot of good comments have been given already. As a person not involved
and without knowledge of the case, but on occasion teaching cross-cultural
management, I just want to piggyback on what James stated and add:
sometimes a person can act in 100% good faith, and yet for the comfort and
safety of everyone else, they may be requested to step down from their
volunteering, and that's ok.

It is perhaps worth reiterating that in mixing cultures different norms and
expectations are 100% inevitably resulting in conflicts and
misunderstandings, period. There is zero doubt about it.

We should all assume good faith, and understand that even the conflicting
norms and cultures alone, with the addition of a hearing problem, may have
resulted in some sort of misunderstanding(s). It still does not mean that
the safety team request was premature. We want the participants to feel
safe and comfortable.

I'd suggest that we refrain from digging into this particular case and
discussing it further, except for remembering clearly that the decision was
never meant as a punishment.

best,

Dariusz ("pundit")


On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think we need to consider that we have participants from different
> countries and hence different cultures. Touching might not be considered
> bad behaviour at all in one culture but could be completely unacceptable in
> another.
>
> E.g. in India it is very common for 2 male friends to walk with hands on
> eachother's shoulder or hand in hand, but when I first arrived in UK I
> learned that such intimacy is linked with particular group of males and
> hence not considered good in public.
>
> In my opinion, what someone personally feels about other's such gestures
> is entirely up to the individual, should not be generalised when we have a
> culturally diverse participants. Being little more tolerant or inclusive is
> all what we should learn and implement.
>
> Regards,
> Dhaval Vyas
>
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 11:37 Sterkebak,  wrote:
>
>> I think we forget the mention of touching, even if its a shoulder.
>> Touching can be very uncomfortable
>>
>> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 12:17, Mykola Kozlenko  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am very sad to see this happen. I think this is a case when we cannot
>>> gave a win-win implementation of the policy
>>> * On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to,
>>> otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.
>>> * On the other hand, in some cultures standing very close to a person
>>> who is not a friend can be really impolite. Some people prefer to keep more
>>> distance when they are talking to someone. (See  https://simple.
>>> wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space )
>>> * On one hand, entering a room when someone needs an item urgently can
>>> be normal. A person quite legitimately may want to help as quickly as
>>> possible when they are asked to.
>>> * On the other hand, a person entering and immediately leaving the room
>>> can indeed be a significant distraction for a speaker. A speaker may come
>>> from a culture where such behaviour is considered impolite.
>>>
>>> We are all coming from different backgrounds, and what is normal for one
>>> person might be offensive to another. Looking forward, can we probably
>>> assume more good faith? We might not be aware what another person's
>>> background is, so perhaps we should begin with asking them why they are
>>> doing that and why you are not OK with that.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Mykola (NickK)
>>>
>>> --- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
>>> Від кого: "Lodewijk" 
>>> Дата: 20 липня 2018, 10:23:49
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> while I have much sympathy for Romaine, and cannot comprehend the
>>> decision with the available information, I do want to guard us to continue
>>> discussing this further here. We (even Romaine) have only a limited part of
>>> the information available to us. I trust that Romaine works with the very
>>> best intentions, and also that the Trust & Safety team has the best
>>> intentions in their implementation. I also trust that the team will make a
>>> full evaluation after Wikimania is completed as their default practice.
>>>
>>> As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to
>>> hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let
>>> us also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
>>> this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
>>> a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
>>> harder and/or harm individuals.
>>>
>>> If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest
>>> that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can
>>> have a conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps
>>> share some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is
>>> probably more appropriate to have this online discussion 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Dhaval S. Vyas]

Hi,

I think we need to consider that we have participants from different
countries and hence different cultures. Touching might not be considered
bad behaviour at all in one culture but could be completely unacceptable in
another.

E.g. in India it is very common for 2 male friends to walk with hands on
eachother's shoulder or hand in hand, but when I first arrived in UK I
learned that such intimacy is linked with particular group of males and
hence not considered good in public.

In my opinion, what someone personally feels about other's such gestures is
entirely up to the individual, should not be generalised when we have a
culturally diverse participants. Being little more tolerant or inclusive is
all what we should learn and implement.

Regards,
Dhaval Vyas

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 11:37 Sterkebak,  wrote:

> I think we forget the mention of touching, even if its a shoulder.
> Touching can be very uncomfortable
>
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 12:17, Mykola Kozlenko  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am very sad to see this happen. I think this is a case when we cannot
>> gave a win-win implementation of the policy
>> * On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to,
>> otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.
>> * On the other hand, in some cultures standing very close to a person who
>> is not a friend can be really impolite. Some people prefer to keep more
>> distance when they are talking to someone. (See
>> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space )
>> * On one hand, entering a room when someone needs an item urgently can be
>> normal. A person quite legitimately may want to help as quickly as possible
>> when they are asked to.
>> * On the other hand, a person entering and immediately leaving the room
>> can indeed be a significant distraction for a speaker. A speaker may come
>> from a culture where such behaviour is considered impolite.
>>
>> We are all coming from different backgrounds, and what is normal for one
>> person might be offensive to another. Looking forward, can we probably
>> assume more good faith? We might not be aware what another person's
>> background is, so perhaps we should begin with asking them why they are
>> doing that and why you are not OK with that.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Mykola (NickK)
>>
>> --- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
>> Від кого: "Lodewijk" 
>> Дата: 20 липня 2018, 10:23:49
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> while I have much sympathy for Romaine, and cannot comprehend the
>> decision with the available information, I do want to guard us to continue
>> discussing this further here. We (even Romaine) have only a limited part of
>> the information available to us. I trust that Romaine works with the very
>> best intentions, and also that the Trust & Safety team has the best
>> intentions in their implementation. I also trust that the team will make a
>> full evaluation after Wikimania is completed as their default practice.
>>
>> As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to
>> hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let
>> us also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
>> this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
>> a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
>> harder and/or harm individuals.
>>
>> If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest
>> that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can
>> have a conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps
>> share some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is
>> probably more appropriate to have this online discussion after the
>> conference has concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and
>> not an individual case.
>>
>> Just my two cents...
>>
>> Lodewijk
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM Andy Mabbett 
>> wrote:
>>
>> On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
>>
>> > - People say I have been talking to loud
>>
>> > Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>>
>> > Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
>> > organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>>
>> As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
>> affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
>> discriminated against in this way.
>>
>> I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
>> ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>> ___
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>> listWikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>> 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Chris Keating]

Hello - I wouldn't claim to know anything about the specifics of
what's happened here but did just want to respond to this:

> * On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to, 
> otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.

I work in an office where about 20% of the workforce are deaf or hard
of hearing. I have never known a situation where someone feels they
'have' to be so close to someone to hear that the other party feels
uncomfortable.

There is plenty one can do to make life easier for a deaf friend or
colleague (speak clearly, make eye contact, keep your face in full
view, use plenty of body language...) but standing right next to them
is not the normal way to do it.

Thanks,

Chris

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Sterkebak]

I think we forget the mention of touching, even if its a shoulder. Touching
can be very uncomfortable

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 12:17, Mykola Kozlenko  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am very sad to see this happen. I think this is a case when we cannot
> gave a win-win implementation of the policy
> * On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to,
> otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.
> * On the other hand, in some cultures standing very close to a person who
> is not a friend can be really impolite. Some people prefer to keep more
> distance when they are talking to someone. (See
> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space )
> * On one hand, entering a room when someone needs an item urgently can be
> normal. A person quite legitimately may want to help as quickly as possible
> when they are asked to.
> * On the other hand, a person entering and immediately leaving the room
> can indeed be a significant distraction for a speaker. A speaker may come
> from a culture where such behaviour is considered impolite.
>
> We are all coming from different backgrounds, and what is normal for one
> person might be offensive to another. Looking forward, can we probably
> assume more good faith? We might not be aware what another person's
> background is, so perhaps we should begin with asking them why they are
> doing that and why you are not OK with that.
>
> Best regards,
> Mykola (NickK)
>
> --- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
> Від кого: "Lodewijk" 
> Дата: 20 липня 2018, 10:23:49
>
> Hi all,
>
> while I have much sympathy for Romaine, and cannot comprehend the decision
> with the available information, I do want to guard us to continue
> discussing this further here. We (even Romaine) have only a limited part of
> the information available to us. I trust that Romaine works with the very
> best intentions, and also that the Trust & Safety team has the best
> intentions in their implementation. I also trust that the team will make a
> full evaluation after Wikimania is completed as their default practice.
>
> As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to hear
> several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let us
> also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
> this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
> a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
> harder and/or harm individuals.
>
> If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest that
> you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can have a
> conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps share
> some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is probably
> more appropriate to have this online discussion after the conference has
> concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and not an
> individual case.
>
> Just my two cents...
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>
> On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
>
> > - People say I have been talking to loud
>
> > Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>
> > Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> > organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>
> As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
> affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
> discriminated against in this way.
>
> I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
> ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
> ___
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> listWikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
-- 
Met vriendelijke groet,

Huib Laurens
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[James Alexander]

Hey all,

I am, as always, sorry, that this has spilled out into the public sphere
more I do not think that is ever a good thing as discussion of specific
situations like this only serves to increase discomfort, make people feel
even less safe and make victims of everyone.

Event Safety and Friendly Spaces is a top priority of any conference
whether big or small as well as one of the issues that can be most
difficult to deal with since it is always a balance of situations, feelings
and people who are frequently acting in good faith. I can confirm that
Trust & Safety was involved here and, like most people who are working on
Friendly Spaces, we never aim to take serious actions if we are able to
avoid it. Most issues are dealt with by local attendees or organizing
volunteers with only short reminders or chats and escalate from there only
as things become more serious or repetitive. The same is true for T who
generally doesn't even become involved until it is a larger situation. I
will admit that whenever a local organizer or volunteer is involved the
seriousness is increased some because they are, rightly or wrongly, seen as
in a position of influence and power which amplifies any and all issues
that arise. It does not, however, change the focus of trying to take the
least amount of actions possible.

I will be the first to admit (and did when talking to Romaine yesterday)
that he has done an enormous amount of great work for events and nothing we
did was meant to demean that even if it felt that way to Romaine. Like any
Friendly Spaces actions nothing we did was meant as a punishment (even
though, again, I understand it can feel that way) but was done because we
felt they were the best thing to do for event safety. I can certainly
guarantee that the decision was not taken lightly.

As many have noted the entire story is not out in the open and, honestly,
won't be. I know that won't make everyone happy but unfortunately is almost
always going to be the case for specific cases. If you want to speak about
process questions and the like, the team (including myself) is certainly
willing to do so. We have a table on the 2nd floor or you can grab one of
us around the conference.

James

*James Alexander*
Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
Wikimedia Foundation

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:40 AM Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On 20 July 2018 at 09:23, Lodewijk  wrote:
>
> > I trust that [...] the Trust & Safety team has the best intentions in
> > their implementation
>
> I note that Romaine does not mention the team in his email, only that
> there was a "demand" that he stand down; he did not say who made this
> demand.
>
> Indeed, the only mention of the T team before yours was my call for
> them to support a member of the community who seems to feel he has
> been discriminated against because of the effects of his hearing
> issue.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Mykola Kozlenko]

Hi,
I am very sad to see this happen. I think this is a case when we cannot gave a 
win-win implementation of the policy
* On one hand, Romaine *has* to be close to a person he is talking to, 
otherwise he is unable to hear them. I know him, he really is.
* On the other hand, in some cultures standing very close to a person who is 
not a friend can be really impolite. Some people prefer to keep more distance 
when they are talking to someone. (See  
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space )
* On one hand, entering a room when someone needs an item urgently can be 
normal. A person quite legitimately may want to help as quickly as possible 
when they are asked to.
* On the other hand, a person entering and immediately leaving the room can 
indeed be a significant distraction for a speaker. A speaker may come from a 
culture where such behaviour is considered impolite.

We are all coming from different backgrounds, and what is normal for one person 
might be offensive to another. Looking forward, can we probably assume more 
good faith? We might not be aware what another person's background is, so 
perhaps we should begin with asking them why they are doing that and why you 
are not OK with that.

Best regards,
Mykola (NickK)

--- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
Від кого: "Lodewijk" 
Дата: 20 липня 2018, 10:23:49

Hi all,
while I have much sympathy for Romaine, and cannot comprehend the decision with 
the available information, I do want to guard us to continue discussing this 
further here. We (even Romaine) have only a limited part of the information 
available to us. I trust that Romaine works with the very best intentions, and 
also that the Trust & Safety team has the best intentions in their 
implementation. I also trust that the team will make a full evaluation after 
Wikimania is completed as their default practice. 

As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to hear 
several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let us also 
recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that this is a 
Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with a decision 
while only having part of the information can only make that job harder and/or 
harm individuals.

If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest that you 
try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can have a 
conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps share some 
rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is probably more 
appropriate to have this online discussion after the conference has concluded, 
based on the policy and practices as a whole, and not an individual case. 

Just my two cents...

Lodewijk

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM Andy Mabbett  wrote:
On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki  wrote:

> - People say I have been talking to loud

> Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself

> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> organiser for this year's Wikimania.

As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
discriminated against in this way.

I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Andy Mabbett]

On 20 July 2018 at 09:23, Lodewijk  wrote:

> I trust that [...] the Trust & Safety team has the best intentions in
> their implementation

I note that Romaine does not mention the team in his email, only that
there was a "demand" that he stand down; he did not say who made this
demand.

Indeed, the only mention of the T team before yours was my call for
them to support a member of the community who seems to feel he has
been discriminated against because of the effects of his hearing
issue.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Devouard (gmail)]

Hi all

I was disturbed when I read Romaine email. For all what is worth, I 
would like to outline I trust Romaine meant the best, appreciate his 
work for the community and the project, including what he has done 
during the previous wikimanias, am sad he has been removed from the 
team, and realize how unconfortable he may be right now.


This said, I realized someone felt unconfortable enough to actually 
report Romaine. And that can not be dismissed.


But I think irl meetings are important moments for some of us to 
actually touch, hug, kiss and I would thoroughly disappointing if this 
would stop because some people feel unconfortable with physical contact. 
Plus... in noisy environments, we need to get closer to one another to 
understand, especially when not primarily English speaking. And this is 
more unconfortable to some than to others.


So, I am thinking that... whilst some of us put little stickers on our 
badges to indicate we do not want to be taken in picture, perhaps we 
need to consider also little stickers to put on our badges to indicate 
that we prefer "a certain physical distance" and warn others that we may 
be sensitive to closeness so they be aware it might be an issue ?


Flo

PS: feel free to hug me

Le 20/07/2018 à 11:02, David Cuenca Tudela a écrit :
I don't know Romaine personally but with the limited information I 
have it seems that a small series of incidents have been blown out of 
proportion. It saddens me that when asking to respect diversity and 
sensitivities, not all volunteers seem to have the same weight. People 
taking responsibilities also need to be taken care of, we cannot ask 
them to conform to fixed ideas, there should be some room to be 
oneself. As John said it is necessary that we are tolerant with small 
transgressions, otherwise we are creating a prison to ourselves based 
on the sensitivities of others.


I only hope that this has been escalated progressively, and that there 
was an open communication at all stages of the process.


Cheers,
Micru

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:37 AM Luca Martinelli 
mailto:martinellil...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Il giorno ven 20 lug 2018 alle ore 10:23 Lodewijk
mailto:lodew...@effeietsanders.org>>
ha scritto:
> As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I
seem to hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is
implemented. Let us also recognize that it is important to have a
friendly space - and that this is a Hard Thing to accomplish.
Agreeing or disagreeing in public with a decision while only
having part of the information can only make that job harder
and/or harm individuals.
>
> If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I
suggest that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety
team, and you can have a conversation with them about the broader
policy. They can perhaps share some rough broader statistics as
part of that. Otherwise, it is probably more appropriate to have
this online discussion after the conference has concluded, based
on the policy and practices as a whole, and not an individual case.

First of all, I apologise for my first message, because I
misunderstood Romaine's announcement: I thought it was a voluntary
step down, not a *request* for it.

This all the more saddens me, as I have worked briefly with Romaine as
voluntary on the first day of Wikimania 2016, and I had the
opportunity of seeing first-hand how dedicated and sweet and full of
joy and energy as a volunteer he might be.

Even if I agree with Lodewijk this is not the place to "overrun" the
decision of the T Team, or discuss/amend/whatever Wikimania's Safe
Space Policy, I'd like to get my message considered as a public
display of thankfulness and appreciation for Romaine's work throughout
the years, not as an explicit critic to anyone - but to be fully
honest, I'm quite puzzled by the decision nonetheless.

Cheers,

-- 
Luca "Sannita" Martinelli

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita

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Etiamsi omnes, ego non


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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Gnangarra]

It doesnt sound like it was good application of process, I think that this
could have been solved simply when the issue was raise with as Romaine has
already done explained and apologised his support should have continued.
It looks bad as someone who isnt there and knows Romaine that issue is be
blown out this much, I think its one that must be resolved today rather
than sometime in the future after the event when everyone has gone home.

Romaine right to have come to the list so that it gets the immediate
attention it needs, that is seeking help.   Leaving until after the event
isnt going to resolve anything all its going to do is allow it to linger
and fester potentially causing even more drama.   I think its beholden to
the organisers or at least the Trust & Safety team leaders to seek out the
parties involved  rather than let this continue.

On 20 July 2018 at 17:02, David Cuenca Tudela  wrote:

> I don't know Romaine personally but with the limited information I have it
> seems that a small series of incidents have been blown out of proportion.
> It saddens me that when asking to respect diversity and sensitivities, not
> all volunteers seem to have the same weight. People taking responsibilities
> also need to be taken care of, we cannot ask them to conform to fixed
> ideas, there should be some room to be oneself. As John said it is
> necessary that we are tolerant with small transgressions, otherwise we are
> creating a prison to ourselves based on the sensitivities of others.
>
> I only hope that this has been escalated progressively, and that there was
> an open communication at all stages of the process.
>
> Cheers,
> Micru
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:37 AM Luca Martinelli 
> wrote:
>
>> Il giorno ven 20 lug 2018 alle ore 10:23 Lodewijk
>>  ha scritto:
>> > As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to
>> hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let
>> us also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
>> this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
>> a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
>> harder and/or harm individuals.
>> >
>> > If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest
>> that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can
>> have a conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps
>> share some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is
>> probably more appropriate to have this online discussion after the
>> conference has concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and
>> not an individual case.
>>
>> First of all, I apologise for my first message, because I
>> misunderstood Romaine's announcement: I thought it was a voluntary
>> step down, not a *request* for it.
>>
>> This all the more saddens me, as I have worked briefly with Romaine as
>> voluntary on the first day of Wikimania 2016, and I had the
>> opportunity of seeing first-hand how dedicated and sweet and full of
>> joy and energy as a volunteer he might be.
>>
>> Even if I agree with Lodewijk this is not the place to "overrun" the
>> decision of the T Team, or discuss/amend/whatever Wikimania's Safe
>> Space Policy, I'd like to get my message considered as a public
>> display of thankfulness and appreciation for Romaine's work throughout
>> the years, not as an explicit critic to anyone - but to be fully
>> honest, I'm quite puzzled by the decision nonetheless.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> Luca "Sannita" Martinelli
>> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
>
> --
> Etiamsi omnes, ego non
>
> ___
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>


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WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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here

.
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[David Cuenca Tudela]

I don't know Romaine personally but with the limited information I have it
seems that a small series of incidents have been blown out of proportion.
It saddens me that when asking to respect diversity and sensitivities, not
all volunteers seem to have the same weight. People taking responsibilities
also need to be taken care of, we cannot ask them to conform to fixed
ideas, there should be some room to be oneself. As John said it is
necessary that we are tolerant with small transgressions, otherwise we are
creating a prison to ourselves based on the sensitivities of others.

I only hope that this has been escalated progressively, and that there was
an open communication at all stages of the process.

Cheers,
Micru

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:37 AM Luca Martinelli 
wrote:

> Il giorno ven 20 lug 2018 alle ore 10:23 Lodewijk
>  ha scritto:
> > As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to
> hear several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let
> us also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
> this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
> a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
> harder and/or harm individuals.
> >
> > If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest
> that you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can
> have a conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps
> share some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is
> probably more appropriate to have this online discussion after the
> conference has concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and
> not an individual case.
>
> First of all, I apologise for my first message, because I
> misunderstood Romaine's announcement: I thought it was a voluntary
> step down, not a *request* for it.
>
> This all the more saddens me, as I have worked briefly with Romaine as
> voluntary on the first day of Wikimania 2016, and I had the
> opportunity of seeing first-hand how dedicated and sweet and full of
> joy and energy as a volunteer he might be.
>
> Even if I agree with Lodewijk this is not the place to "overrun" the
> decision of the T Team, or discuss/amend/whatever Wikimania's Safe
> Space Policy, I'd like to get my message considered as a public
> display of thankfulness and appreciation for Romaine's work throughout
> the years, not as an explicit critic to anyone - but to be fully
> honest, I'm quite puzzled by the decision nonetheless.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Luca "Sannita" Martinelli
> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Luca Martinelli]

Il giorno ven 20 lug 2018 alle ore 10:23 Lodewijk
 ha scritto:
> As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to hear 
> several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let us 
> also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that this 
> is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with a 
> decision while only having part of the information can only make that job 
> harder and/or harm individuals.
>
> If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest that 
> you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can have a 
> conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps share some 
> rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is probably more 
> appropriate to have this online discussion after the conference has 
> concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and not an 
> individual case.

First of all, I apologise for my first message, because I
misunderstood Romaine's announcement: I thought it was a voluntary
step down, not a *request* for it.

This all the more saddens me, as I have worked briefly with Romaine as
voluntary on the first day of Wikimania 2016, and I had the
opportunity of seeing first-hand how dedicated and sweet and full of
joy and energy as a volunteer he might be.

Even if I agree with Lodewijk this is not the place to "overrun" the
decision of the T Team, or discuss/amend/whatever Wikimania's Safe
Space Policy, I'd like to get my message considered as a public
display of thankfulness and appreciation for Romaine's work throughout
the years, not as an explicit critic to anyone - but to be fully
honest, I'm quite puzzled by the decision nonetheless.

Cheers,

-- 
Luca "Sannita" Martinelli
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Lodewijk]

Hi all,

while I have much sympathy for Romaine, and cannot comprehend the decision
with the available information, I do want to guard us to continue
discussing this further here. We (even Romaine) have only a limited part of
the information available to us. I trust that Romaine works with the very
best intentions, and also that the Trust & Safety team has the best
intentions in their implementation. I also trust that the team will make a
full evaluation after Wikimania is completed as their default practice.

As part of this conversation, both here online and offline, I seem to hear
several people who are unhappy with how the policy is implemented. Let us
also recognize that it is important to have a friendly space - and that
this is a Hard Thing to accomplish. Agreeing or disagreeing in public with
a decision while only having part of the information can only make that job
harder and/or harm individuals.

If you have beef with the policy and how it is implemented, I suggest that
you try to set up a meetup with the Trust & Safety team, and you can have a
conversation with them about the broader policy. They can perhaps share
some rough broader statistics as part of that. Otherwise, it is probably
more appropriate to have this online discussion after the conference has
concluded, based on the policy and practices as a whole, and not an
individual case.

Just my two cents...

Lodewijk

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
>
> > - People say I have been talking to loud
>
> > Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>
> > Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> > organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>
> As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
> affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
> discriminated against in this way.
>
> I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
> ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Andy Mabbett]

On 19 July 2018 at 20:30, Romaine Wiki  wrote:

> - People say I have been talking to loud

> Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself

> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> organiser for this year's Wikimania.

As someone with family members who are profoundly hard of hearing and
affected by tinnitus, I am sorry to learn that you have been
discriminated against in this way.

I hope that whoever is responsible for our safe spaces policy will
ensure that this does not happen to you - or anyone else - again.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[John Hendrik Weitzmann]

Dear Romaine,

my personal opnion on this: You probably (as most of us) fell victim to
today's spreading zeitgeist of taking offence in very small transgressions.
This doesn't only concern the so-called "snowflake generation
", but has morphed into
a general culture of sensitivities that serve identity building purposes.

While this started as well-meant protection of minorities and people with
special needs against normative disadvantages, it has lead to a mindset
where the civil exercise of hiding one's sensitivities in order to make
human interaction work has almost entirely vanished.

In other words: It is crucial for civilised societies that everyone in them
is willing (ability is not the problem) to endure other people's quirks,
shortcomings and unintentional transgressions to some extent. Instead, it
has become a matter of identity to express anything that one is in the
slightest way offended by, and demand protection against that.

This development IMHO has to stop, if we don't want to end up in a totally
atomised, solidarity-free society. I hope you continue to support our event.

Best
John



Am Fr., 20. Juli 2018 um 09:28 Uhr schrieb Federico Leva (Nemo) <
nemow...@gmail.com>:

> KuboF Hromoslav, 20/07/2018 00:03:
> > I am not aware of all details but as I personally know you, you are very
> > helpful and skilled. As we say "only those who do nothing, do no errors".
>
> Indeed, or in Italian "chi non fa non sbaglia". I hope in the future
> Wikimania will be inclusive and able to foster collaboration between
> good spirited people even if they're "different".
>
> Which reminds me, these days some interesting things happened in
> Johannesburg around Mandela day.
> https://youtu.be/9P3c8wAETjc
> https://youtu.be/mviqiDKIqDc?t=2h13m10s
>
> Federico
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Jaqen]

Hi Romaine, hi everybody,

it is very painful for me to read this.

I have hearing problems myself, so I sometimes speak too loud, I may not
hear someone calling me, I may walk around someone to get in a position
where I can hear him/her well, etc.

These behaviors may look rude, but as a movement we should be able to deal
with them without asking people to step down.

Jaqen

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 9:30 PM, Romaine Wiki 
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>
> What has happened?
> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where that
> was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
> .
> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>
> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
> I might also stand closer to people.
> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
> feel well.
>
> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>
>
> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>
> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>
> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
> but I will be around.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

KuboF Hromoslav, 20/07/2018 00:03:
I am not aware of all details but as I personally know you, you are very 
helpful and skilled. As we say "only those who do nothing, do no errors".


Indeed, or in Italian "chi non fa non sbaglia". I hope in the future 
Wikimania will be inclusive and able to foster collaboration between 
good spirited people even if they're "different".


Which reminds me, these days some interesting things happened in 
Johannesburg around Mandela day.

https://youtu.be/9P3c8wAETjc
https://youtu.be/mviqiDKIqDc?t=2h13m10s

Federico

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[KuboF Hromoslav]

Sad to read this Romaine...

I am not aware of all details but as I personally know you, you are very
helpful and skilled. As we say "only those who do nothing, do no errors".
Some people can perceive some helpful actions as damaging (I certainly do
in some contexts) but it is not good reason to stop helping. I would
suggest more personal responsibility for those who perceive you speaking
loudly and standing closely to ask you do it in other way. I remember no
one time when Wikimanian refused to do so if gently and clearly asked.

Sleep well and rethink tommorow
KuboF Hromoslav

Dňa štvrtok 19. júla 2018 Romaine Wiki  napísal(a):

> Dear all,
>
> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>
> What has happened?
> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where that
> was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
> .
> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>
> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
> I might also stand closer to people.
> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
> feel well.
>
> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>
>
> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>
> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>
> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
> but I will be around.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
>

-- 
KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Isaac Olatunde]

Hi Romain,

I haven't met you in person but you have been very helpful to me and my
team on countless occasion.

I am really sad to hear this news.  I am not in Capetown, I would have love
to meet you.  Members of Wikimedia User Group, Shola and Sam are in
Capetown and may reach out to you.

Regards,

Isaac

On Jul 19, 2018 8:48 PM, "Jane Darnell"  wrote:

Sad news indeed! So sorry to read this and I can at least say that I am
only grateful for your thoughtful help and clear explanations at Wikimedia
events I have attended in the past.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Luca Martinelli 
wrote:

> I don't know what to say, except for "think it again tomorrow morning" and
> "don't do it".
>
> Hugs,
>
> L.
>
> Il gio 19 lug 2018, 21:31 Romaine Wiki  ha
> scritto:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>>
>> What has happened?
>> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where
>> that was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
>> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
>> .
>> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
>> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>>
>> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
>> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
>> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
>> I might also stand closer to people.
>> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
>> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
>> feel well.
>>
>> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
>> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
>> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
>> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
>> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
>> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>>
>>
>> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
>> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
>> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
>> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
>> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
>> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
>> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>>
>> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
>> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>>
>> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
>> but I will be around.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Jane Darnell]

Sad news indeed! So sorry to read this and I can at least say that I am
only grateful for your thoughtful help and clear explanations at Wikimedia
events I have attended in the past.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Luca Martinelli 
wrote:

> I don't know what to say, except for "think it again tomorrow morning" and
> "don't do it".
>
> Hugs,
>
> L.
>
> Il gio 19 lug 2018, 21:31 Romaine Wiki  ha
> scritto:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>>
>> What has happened?
>> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where
>> that was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
>> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
>> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
>> .
>> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
>> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>>
>> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
>> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
>> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
>> I might also stand closer to people.
>> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
>> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
>> feel well.
>>
>> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
>> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
>> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
>> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
>> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
>> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>>
>>
>> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
>> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
>> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
>> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
>> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
>> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
>> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>>
>> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
>> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>>
>> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
>> but I will be around.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Sad news

[Luca Martinelli]

I don't know what to say, except for "think it again tomorrow morning" and
"don't do it".

Hugs,

L.

Il gio 19 lug 2018, 21:31 Romaine Wiki  ha scritto:

> Dear all,
>
> Right now I am feeling much hurt after a conversation I just had.
>
> What has happened?
> - People say I have been talking to loud, however I do not know where that
> was, but for those who complained about that: I am very sorry, not my
> intention. Please be aware I have a hearing problem and I do hear myself
> much less, as well as I have periodically tinnitus
> .
> I would appreciate it very much if anyone who notices I speak to loud, to
> tell me, I do not want to disturb or invasive or ...
>
> - People have said that with some people I have been standing to close to
> them or I may have touched a shoulder. I am very very sorry if that gave
> anyone a bad feeling. Such is never my intention. Because of my bad hearing
> I might also stand closer to people.
> I am pretty sensitive myself to this as well, and I always try to respect
> the personal space of others as I would love anyone at the conference to
> feel well.
>
> About two years ago I was the subject of harassment myself, resulting in
> that I felt horrible for two weeks and couldn't do anything in the
> movement. Having it experienced myself, I am feeling horrible that I
> brought others in the situation that made them feel terrible.
> It feels for me really bad with helping someone that it results in the
> other having an uncomfortable feeling.
>
>
> Also during the day I walked in a room during a session to hand out, on
> request, something to the someone in the room, and left almost immediately.
> Some hours later I heard that one of the presenters in the room got
> stressed by my short presence in the room. I feel sorry if I may have
> disturbed this session in some way, and hope that the presenter will not
> hold a grudge. I am open for a conversation if needed.
> Either way, this resulted in an official complaint on my address.
>
> Because of these complaints, it was demanded to step down as a volunteer
> organiser for this year's Wikimania.
>
> I am very sorry that it has influence on my support of this conference,
> but I will be around.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
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