Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: FOSDEM update

2013-09-25 Thread Dimitar Parvanov Dimitrov 
Hi,

by then WMBE might already be founded and affiliated. However, we already
have people willing to work on this aswell. If you need any local
assistance, feel free to get in touch.

Dimi


2013/9/25 Quim Gil 

> Hi, just a heads up about http://fosdem.org - Brussels 1 & 2 Feb 2014.
>
> One of the biggest and coolest grassroots open source events in the World
> - and the main one in Europe.
>
> European orgs and individuals loving software freedom: Wikimedia wants to
> have a stand. Let's do something cool! Get involved.
>
> Discussion better at 
> https://www.mediawiki.org/**wiki/Events/FOSDEMor
>  wikitech-l.
>
> Thank you!
>
> PS: read below
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: FOSDEM update
> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 10:39:58 -0700
> From: Quim Gil 
> To: Wikimedia developers 
> 
> >
>
> Hi, about FOSDEM - 
> https://www.mediawiki.org/**wiki/Events/FOSDEM
>
> Brussels / 1 & 2 February 2014
>
> On 1 Oct we will know whether our proposal for a Wiki DevRoom has been
> accepted or not. This is a DevRoom we have proposed together with XWiki
> and TikiWiki and is open to all wiki topics. If we we get it accepted we
> will organize a call for participation for this DevRoom.
>
> The call for main track session proposals is open until 1 Oct.
> https://fosdem.org/2014/news/**2013-08-06-call-for-**participation/
>
> ... and the call for lightning talks and stands is open until 20 Nov.
> https://fosdem.org/2014/news/**2013-09-17-call-for-**
> participation-part-two/
>
> You are encouraged to submit lightning talk proposals! Don worry if you
> are unsure between submitting a session for a lightning talk or a
> devroom: you can contact both and then they suggest you what to do.
>
> Wikimedia wants to have a stand, and we have received an offer to help
> from the nascent Wikimedia Belgium chapter. Probably more help can be
> aggregated from CH, DE, FR, NL, UK + other tech contributors in the
> region? Let's do something really cool! To be discussed.
>
> --
> Quim Gil
> Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/**User:Qgil
>
>
>
> __**_
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> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org 
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread geni 
On 25 September 2013 19:33, Andrew Lih  wrote:

> It has something to do with countering falsehoods and educating folks about
> the full range of content rights.
>
> Their 2nd grade materials state:
> "Property comes in many forms: when we buy a book, we own that book. It’s
> our property, but we don’t own the right to reproduce that book and then
> sell it or give it away. That’s stealing."
>
> Um, no. A Creative Commons SA book,


The course covers creative commons.


> a public domain work or expired
> copyright work can indeed be reproduced. And it's not stealing.
>

Varies. what can catch you out there is that it may be possible to
copyright typography (in the UK that copyright lasts for 20 years).



geni
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread Kat Walsh 
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 9:42 AM, David Gerard  wrote:

> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/mpaa-school-propaganda/
>
[...]


> I suggest we see if WMF commenting, possibly in a blog post or
> similar, would help avert such anti-sharing foolishness


I doubt it would avert it, though pointing it out might at least draw
attention. I agree with the comment that it's a ridiculous idea to
introduce in elementary school (and I would be surprised if it did not
simply die on its own, along with many actual good ideas for curriculum
supplementation that simply can't be packed in to the school day).

Creative Commons now has a blog post up from Jane Park, criticizing the
program and pointing out the alternatives that exist:
https://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/39781

(I am reminded of the clever "If you don't talk to your children about
copyright, who will?", also available in bumper-sticker format:
http://questioncopyright.com/qco-stk-chld.html )

-Kat

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread James Alexander 
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Andrew Lih  wrote:

> You are right, that the lack of a national US chapter holds us back.
>
> The obvious solution is to create a new group: Committee of Wikipedian
> Parents Interested in Education, aka COWPIE
>
>
I feel like I'm obligated to make some kind of COWPIE/WALRUS related joke
here but I can't come up with one yet.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread Andrew Lih 
Michael, you are correct -- we should push for just ditching the whole
thing.



On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Michael Snow wrote:

> On 9/25/2013 11:33 AM, Andrew Lih wrote:
>
>> I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to talk
>> about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
>> happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.
>>
> Because the program in question is intended for elementary schools, they
> claim that the children aren't ready to handle the level of nuance and
> abstract thought involved in those concepts. I might be willing to accept
> that objection, but it really should be taken a step farther. At that
> stage, most children aren't developmentally ready for the level of
> abstraction involved in copyright, period. Neither the things it forbids
> nor the things it allows.
>
> A second-grader who wants to draw Buzz Lightyear, because that's her
> favorite cartoon character and she wants to be an astronaut, is never going
> to understand that Pixar owns the rights to that character and she can't do
> whatever she wants with it. ("Honey, why don't you just put away the
> crayons and come play with your action figure instead?") ("Yes, I know
> Grandma buys your artwork for a quarter so she can put it on her
> refrigerator, but you're not allowed to give her this one.") You can tell
> her what's allowed and what's not, and she may even comply, but there's no
> way she will understand the reasons, in her mind they will simply be rules
> that you made up.
>
> That's a particularly good sign that the purpose of the materials is
> really propaganda and indoctrination. Regardless of whether the curriculum
> is suitably "balanced", the concepts are beyond what's developmentally
> appropriate to be teaching at that level.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread Andrew Lih 
You are right, that the lack of a national US chapter holds us back.

The obvious solution is to create a new group: Committee of Wikipedian
Parents Interested in Education, aka COWPIE




On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Jens Best  wrote:

> This is obviously a propaganda campaign focused on children which isn't
> reflecting on the variety of ownership and sharing-enabling licences. It is
> against the idea of free knowledge. Therefore it is a
> political/sociocultural problem which is against the spreading of the
> knowledge about free knowledge and its basic principles.
>
> But as this is an US-American problem it should be handled by an
> US-American Wikimedia chapter...as there is imo no US-American chapter WMF
> could act as a representative for Wikimedia-related problems in an
> US-country education system.
>
> best regards
>
> Jens Best
>
>
>
> 2013/9/25 David Gerard 
>
> > On 25 September 2013 20:23, Andrew Lih  wrote:
> >
> > > From the message on the web site, the WMF is a "nonprofit charitable
> > > organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and
> > > distribution of free, multilingual, educational content, and to
> providing
> > > the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of
> > charge."
> > > Inside a California public school, the WMF should indeed have an
> interest
> > > in making sure that students using Wikipedia don't think to themselves
> > that
> > > using such material is "stealing" and that someone is expecting to be
> > > "paid."
> >
> >
> >
> > Pretty much. It's in our direct interest that this not go ahead as
> planned.
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Jens Best
> Präsidium
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> web: http://www.wikimedia.de
> mail: jens.best @wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
> ___
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread Jens Best 
This is obviously a propaganda campaign focused on children which isn't
reflecting on the variety of ownership and sharing-enabling licences. It is
against the idea of free knowledge. Therefore it is a
political/sociocultural problem which is against the spreading of the
knowledge about free knowledge and its basic principles.

But as this is an US-American problem it should be handled by an
US-American Wikimedia chapter...as there is imo no US-American chapter WMF
could act as a representative for Wikimedia-related problems in an
US-country education system.

best regards

Jens Best



2013/9/25 David Gerard 

> On 25 September 2013 20:23, Andrew Lih  wrote:
>
> > From the message on the web site, the WMF is a "nonprofit charitable
> > organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and
> > distribution of free, multilingual, educational content, and to providing
> > the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of
> charge."
> > Inside a California public school, the WMF should indeed have an interest
> > in making sure that students using Wikipedia don't think to themselves
> that
> > using such material is "stealing" and that someone is expecting to be
> > "paid."
>
>
>
> Pretty much. It's in our direct interest that this not go ahead as planned.
>
>
> - d.
>
> ___
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> 
>



-- 
--
Jens Best
Präsidium
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
web: http://www.wikimedia.de
mail: jens.best @wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread Michael Snow 

On 9/25/2013 11:33 AM, Andrew Lih wrote:

I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to talk
about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.
Because the program in question is intended for elementary schools, they 
claim that the children aren't ready to handle the level of nuance and 
abstract thought involved in those concepts. I might be willing to 
accept that objection, but it really should be taken a step farther. At 
that stage, most children aren't developmentally ready for the level of 
abstraction involved in copyright, period. Neither the things it forbids 
nor the things it allows.


A second-grader who wants to draw Buzz Lightyear, because that's her 
favorite cartoon character and she wants to be an astronaut, is never 
going to understand that Pixar owns the rights to that character and she 
can't do whatever she wants with it. ("Honey, why don't you just put 
away the crayons and come play with your action figure instead?") ("Yes, 
I know Grandma buys your artwork for a quarter so she can put it on her 
refrigerator, but you're not allowed to give her this one.") You can 
tell her what's allowed and what's not, and she may even comply, but 
there's no way she will understand the reasons, in her mind they will 
simply be rules that you made up.


That's a particularly good sign that the purpose of the materials is 
really propaganda and indoctrination. Regardless of whether the 
curriculum is suitably "balanced", the concepts are beyond what's 
developmentally appropriate to be teaching at that level.


--Michael Snow

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread David Gerard 
On 25 September 2013 20:23, Andrew Lih  wrote:

> From the message on the web site, the WMF is a "nonprofit charitable
> organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and
> distribution of free, multilingual, educational content, and to providing
> the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge."
> Inside a California public school, the WMF should indeed have an interest
> in making sure that students using Wikipedia don't think to themselves that
> using such material is "stealing" and that someone is expecting to be
> "paid."



Pretty much. It's in our direct interest that this not go ahead as planned.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread Andrew Lih 
The California school system is the back yard (actually front yard) of both
Wikimedia Foundation and Creative Commons.

From the message on the web site, the WMF is a "nonprofit charitable
organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and
distribution of free, multilingual, educational content, and to providing
the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge."

Inside a California public school, the WMF should indeed have an interest
in making sure that students using Wikipedia don't think to themselves that
using such material is "stealing" and that someone is expecting to be
"paid."




On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Tyler Romeo  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Andrew Lih  wrote:
>
> > I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to
> talk
> > about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
> > happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.
> >
>
> You're still just arguing about the correctness of the material. I agree
> that this curriculum is stupid and misleading, but that doesn't explain why
> the WMF should care enough to make a statement, or even continue
> discussion, about it.
>
> *-- *
> *Tyler Romeo*
> Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
> Major in Computer Science
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread Tyler Romeo 
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Andrew Lih  wrote:

> I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to talk
> about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
> happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.
>

You're still just arguing about the correctness of the material. I agree
that this curriculum is stupid and misleading, but that doesn't explain why
the WMF should care enough to make a statement, or even continue
discussion, about it.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread Andrew Lih 
It has something to do with countering falsehoods and educating folks about
the full range of content rights.

Their 2nd grade materials state:
"Property comes in many forms: when we buy a book, we own that book. It’s
our property, but we don’t own the right to reproduce that book and then
sell it or give it away. That’s stealing."

Um, no. A Creative Commons SA book, a public domain work or expired
copyright work can indeed be reproduced. And it's not stealing.

"We are careful to acknowledge the work of authors and creators and respect
their ownership. We recognize that it’s hard work to produce something, and
we want to get paid for our work."

No, not all people want to get paid for their work.


I'd be OK if they simply gave some space in the training materials to talk
about public domain, free licenses and fair use. That's not likely to
happen given who's in control of those lesson plans.





On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tyler Romeo  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Lih  wrote:
>
> > I disagree that this is simply "political."
>
>
> This doesn't answer my original question. What does this have to do with
> WMF? Wikipedia does not own any public schools in California, nor will
> Wikipedia be affected by this curriculum should it be implemented. The only
> similarity is that is has something to do with knowledge, which is
> extremely vague.
>
> *-- *
> *Tyler Romeo*
> Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
> Major in Computer Science
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread Tyler Romeo 
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Lih  wrote:

> I disagree that this is simply "political."


This doesn't answer my original question. What does this have to do with
WMF? Wikipedia does not own any public schools in California, nor will
Wikipedia be affected by this curriculum should it be implemented. The only
similarity is that is has something to do with knowledge, which is
extremely vague.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
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[Wikimedia-l] Fwd: FOSDEM update

2013-09-25 Thread Quim Gil 

Hi, just a heads up about http://fosdem.org - Brussels 1 & 2 Feb 2014.

One of the biggest and coolest grassroots open source events in the 
World - and the main one in Europe.


European orgs and individuals loving software freedom: Wikimedia wants 
to have a stand. Let's do something cool! Get involved.


Discussion better at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Events/FOSDEM or 
wikitech-l.


Thank you!

PS: read below


 Original Message 
Subject: FOSDEM update
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 10:39:58 -0700
From: Quim Gil 
To: Wikimedia developers 

Hi, about FOSDEM - https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Events/FOSDEM

Brussels / 1 & 2 February 2014

On 1 Oct we will know whether our proposal for a Wiki DevRoom has been
accepted or not. This is a DevRoom we have proposed together with XWiki
and TikiWiki and is open to all wiki topics. If we we get it accepted we
will organize a call for participation for this DevRoom.

The call for main track session proposals is open until 1 Oct.
https://fosdem.org/2014/news/2013-08-06-call-for-participation/

... and the call for lightning talks and stands is open until 20 Nov.
https://fosdem.org/2014/news/2013-09-17-call-for-participation-part-two/

You are encouraged to submit lightning talk proposals! Don worry if you
are unsure between submitting a session for a lightning talk or a
devroom: you can contact both and then they suggest you what to do.

Wikimedia wants to have a stand, and we have received an offer to help
from the nascent Wikimedia Belgium chapter. Probably more help can be
aggregated from CH, DE, FR, NL, UK + other tech contributors in the
region? Let's do something really cool! To be discussed.

--
Quim Gil
Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil



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[Wikimedia-l] What makes a good small (tech) project

2013-09-25 Thread Sumana Harihareswara 
Sometimes I see Wikimedians mention Google Summer of Code when they want
to find someone to work on a code project. (Example: [0]) This makes
sense sometimes. If you think your idea might be a good project for a
student -- or you want help to make it that -- please do put it on the
"possible projects" page, and Quim or others will help you refine it.[1]
Now's a good time to do that, so that Outreach Program for Women
applicants can consider your idea when they apply for the January-March
round.

For the three-month programming internships, such as GSoC and some OPW
projects, we have to cut down how much they try to do, to make sure it
gets done and gets onto the site. So sometimes we'll need to take only
the simplest part of your idea and turn it into the project idea.

But the only way we can help you get some of your idea made is if we
hear about it! So if you have the seed of an idea, please go ahead and
put it on the "possible projects" page[1] instead of just saying to
yourself "oh it sounds way too big".

Also, check out what some past Outreach Program for Women interns have
done.[2] Maybe your community could use help in systems administration,
marketing, template-making, writing automated tests, or other work that
GSoC won't let us have as a GSoC project.


[0]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2013-March/thread.html#9626
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Mentorship_programs/Possible_projects
[2] https://wiki.gnome.org/OutreachProgramForWomen#Previous_Participants
--
Sumana Harihareswara
Engineering Community Manager
Wikimedia Foundation

P.S. After this email, I'm unsubscribing from the wikimedia-l list as
I prepare for my sabbatical, which starts this weekend - more info at
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-August/071542.html
. If you need to talk about Wikimedia technical community stuff or
communication before January, please consult Quim Gil, qgil at wikimedia
dot org, or Guillaume Paumier, gpaumier at wikimedia dot org. Thanks!
Looking forward to coming back in January.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Planned school curriculum by MPAA

2013-09-25 Thread Andrew Lih 
I disagree that this is simply "political."

It is very much a culture of ownership -- and a corporate one at that --
being instituted earlier to American kids.

If you remember, it was exactly this problem that inspired Lawrence Lessig
to start Creative Commons in the first place. He observed that there was a
critical inflection point -- when kids are first taught to share and
cooperate and then are flipped to hoard and restrict.

This amplifies hoarding and restricting at the same time kids are taught to
share. I'm glad I moved out of California before this propaganda was
introduced to my kids.

-Andrew





On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Tyler Romeo  wrote:

> What exactly does this have to do with the WMF? Just because we encourage
> open sharing of data doesn't mean we need to comment on every political
> debate that shows up on the news.
>
> *-- *
> *Tyler Romeo*
> Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
> Major in Computer Science
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 1:21 PM, geni  wrote:
>
> > On 24 September 2013 17:42, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/mpaa-school-propaganda/
> > >
> > > “This thinly disguised corporate propaganda is inaccurate and
> > > inappropriate,” says Mitch Stoltz, an intellectual property attorney
> > > with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who reviewed the material at
> > > WIRED’s request.
> > >
> > > “It suggests, falsely, that ideas are property and that building on
> > > others’ ideas always requires permission,” Stoltz says. “The
> > > overriding message of this curriculum is that students’ time should be
> > > consumed not in creating but in worrying about their impact on
> > > corporate profits.”
> > >
> > >
> > > I suggest we see if WMF commenting, possibly in a blog post or
> > > similar, would help avert such anti-sharing foolishness.
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> >
> > Might not be a great idea
> > Its an improvement on previous attempts (to start with It doesn't appear
> to
> > violate the GFDL) and we would actually benefit from our uploaders
> having a
> > working knowledge of copyright. Knowing all the exceptions is something
> > best left to more experienced users.
> >
> > --
> > geni
> > ___
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> > 
> >
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[Wikimedia-l] [Reminder] Language Engineering IRC Office hour on September 25, 2013 at 1700 UTC

2013-09-25 Thread Runa Bhattacharjee 
Hello,

This is reminder that the Wikimedia Language Engineering team will be
hosting an IRC office hour from 1700 to 1800UTC later today on
#wikimedia-office (FreeNode). Please see below for the event details.

Thanks
Runa

=== Event Details ===

What: WMF Language Engineering Office hour
When: September 25, 2013 (Wednesday). 1700-1800 UTC
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20130925T1700
Where: IRC Channel #wikimedia-office on FreeNode


-- Forwarded message --
From: Runa Bhattacharjee 
Date: Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 12:49 AM
Subject: Language Engineering IRC Office hour on September 25, 2013 at 1700 UTC
To: Wikimedia developers , Wikimedia
Mailing List ,
wikitech-ambassad...@lists.wikimedia.org, MediaWiki
internationalisation 


[Cross-posted]

Hello,

The Wikimedia Language Engineering team will be hosting an IRC office
hour on Wednesday, September 25, 2013 between 17:00 - 18:00 UTC. (See
below for timezone conversion and other details.) We will be talking
about some of our projects that are in development, a short round up
from Google Summer of Code and then taking questions for the remaining
time.

If there are things that you would like to bring to our attention then
this would be a good time to do so. Questions can also be sent to me
directly before the event. See you there!

Thanks
Runa

=== Event Details ===

What: WMF Language Engineering Office hour
When: September 25, 2013 (Wednesday). 1700-1800 UTC
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20130925T1700
Where: IRC Channel #wikimedia-office on FreeNode

--
Language Engineering - Outreach and QA Coordinator
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [WikiEN-l] access to journals

2013-09-25 Thread Delirium 

On 9/24/13 10:13 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

On 24 September 2013 14:06, Liam Wyatt  wrote:

I'm now working for the National Library of Australia and we offer free, at
home, access to JSTOR and MANY other restricted access databases to any
Australian, if they get a free library card.
Is this unique to Australia?

My free library subscription in Birmingham, England, gets me access -
from home or indeed anywhere else - to a number of otherwise-paywalled
online databases and services .



In Denmark, and I believe most of the USA, the norm is only on-site 
access to subscriptions, for the general public. University-affiliated 
researchers do have the option to login remotely, or VPN in to get an 
institutional IP address offsite. But the general public has to use 
library computers to access the subscriptions, or (in some cases) their 
own computers on the library WiFi.


-Mark


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