Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
Tom, 1. You appear to be trying to convince the members of this list, and possibly later by extension, the members of the Wikimedia community, to communicate in a less stridently adversarial mode than is currently apparent. 2. I completely agree with all points expressed, and consider Dennett to be rather good at expressing himself. Well done for finding this and sharing it here. 3. This is a good way of making the point. 4. Sorry, can't think of any rebuttals or criticism at this point. Cheers, Peter PS. For the cynical - absolutely no irony intended. -Original Message- From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Everton Zanella Alvarenga Sent: 14 May 2014 03:27 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness Hi, I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance of making mistakeshttp://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm. Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking*http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20, and I would like to share here also: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ How to compose a successful critical commentary: 1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way. 2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). 3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target. 4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do it. Tom -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4577 / Virus Database: 3950/7491 - Release Date: 05/13/14 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] European Courts of Justice right to be forgotten
Re http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27407017 Please remember that the EU Courts explicitly allow for a public interest exemption which almost by definition covers anyone passing Wikipedia's notability criteria. Also, please consider the appropriate response for those of us including Kathy Sierra and myself who have had our names, addresses, phone numbers and personal identifiers such as identity fraud magnets like Social Security Numbers belonging to our children and ourselves doxed on e.g. Encyclopedia Dramatica and similar locations. Asserting that we should have no recourse does not seem particularly well grounded, and seems to be happening without reasons being offered. Best regards, James Salsman ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
This seems like very good advice, Tom. Have you tried it? A. On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: Hi, I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance of making mistakes http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm. Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking* http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20, and I would like to share here also: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ How to compose a successful critical commentary: 1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way. 2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). 3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target. 4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do it. Tom -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Request for comments: How to deal with open datasets?
Hi, During the Zürich Hackathon I met several people that looked for solutions about how to integrate external open datasets into our projects (mainly Wikipedia, Wikidata). Since Wikidata is not the right tool to manage them (reasons explained in the RFC as discussed during the Wikidata session), I have felt convenient to centralize the discussion about potential requirements, needs, and how to approach this new changing landscape that didn't exist a few years ago. You will find more details here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/How_to_deal_with_open_datasets Your comments, thoughts and ideas are appreciated! Cheers, Micru ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
On 14 May 2014 14:26, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: How to compose a successful critical commentary [...] That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a succinct email exchange. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
This is highly needed, thanks for sharing. Dennis Pierri On 14/05/2014, at 08:56, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: Hi, I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance of making mistakeshttp://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm. Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking*http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20, and I would like to share here also: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ How to compose a successful critical commentary: 1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way. 2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). 3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target. 4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do it. Tom -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.ukwrote: On 14 May 2014 14:26, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: How to compose a successful critical commentary [...] That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a succinct email exchange. This style of communication is indeed quite longwinded and can be rather cumbersome. It also creates somewhat of a mess in mailinglist archives, and makes it far more difficult to find the exact point. It can also come across as condescending, which can make it counterproductive, and not only not worth the trouble, but actively harmful. There are definitely cases where this style isn't a good idea. I should try to keep that in mind more often. That said, in other cases it can prevent people putting their heels in the sand, and lead to more constructive debate, and less arguing. The initially longer communication style in that case actually saves time (and frustration) in the longer run. In some ways it can be compared to band-aid fixes in software design. It might be quicker and easier now, but can lead to headaches and trouble later. Most (all?) programming best-practices should sometimes be avoided, and there can be a lively debate on when they should and shouldn't be ignored. A communication style like this can be seen as an analogy to a development best practice. Sometimes it's a good idea, sometimes it adds nothing but hassle, and sometimes its actively counterproductive and harmful. But it's always worth knowing and considering, especially since mailinglists don't tend to have an --amend switch for commits. --Martijn -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
On 15 May 2014 09:20, Asaf Bartov abar...@wikimedia.org wrote: This seems like very good advice, Tom. Have you tried it? I agree, it sure is great advice. A shorter version is the management classic good news sandwich. Here's a version similar to those you might see used in emails: 1. Your email was illuminating, we have no doubt that you great passion and commitment as a Wikimedian. 2. Based on what some might see as disruptive comments, you have been blocked from the list. There is no appeal process but you can try writing to the moderators if you wish. I suggest trying in six months time to expect a reply. 3. The contributions you make to our projects are great. I look forward to seeing the time you save, being used to be even more productive! It's a great technique, nobody can claim that an email structured this way is unpolite or intended as personal. It could be a bit obvious for anyone familiar with the classics though... Thanks everyone for chipping in with their views, nice to see such varied perspectives. Related blog: http://alexrichardson.co.uk/thoughts-from-the-non-pro-screenwriter-how-to-give-feedback/ Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
On 15 May 2014 12:22, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: How to compose a successful critical commentary [...] That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a succinct email exchange. This style of communication is indeed quite longwinded and can be rather cumbersome. It also creates somewhat of a mess in mailinglist archives, and makes it far more difficult to find the exact point. It can also come across as condescending, which can make it counterproductive, and not only not worth the trouble, but actively harmful. There are definitely cases where this style isn't a good idea. I should try to keep that in mind more often. Thanks for the demonstration. That said Sorry, tl;dr ;-) -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Request for comments: How to deal with open datasets?
2014-05-15 11:25 GMT+02:00 David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com: During the Zürich Hackathon I met several people that looked for solutions about how to integrate external open datasets into our projects (mainly Wikipedia, Wikidata). Since Wikidata is not the right tool to manage them (reasons explained in the RFC as discussed during the Wikidata session), I have felt convenient to centralize the discussion about potential requirements, needs, and how to approach this new changing landscape that didn't exist a few years ago. You will find more details here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/How_to_deal_with_open_datasets Your comments, thoughts and ideas are appreciated! Thanks for the pointer, How can I put this open data on Wikidata is a question that I have been asked many times, this page was needed. Ciao, C ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
Andy, you seem concerned that people won't take the time to fully read responses composed this way. I think it's important to get to the point as well and appreciate the reminder. However, I think it may be possible to follow the form and keep disagreements brief. :) Maggie On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.ukwrote: On 14 May 2014 14:26, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: How to compose a successful critical commentary [...] That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a succinct email exchange. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Request for comments: How to deal with open datasets?
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the pointer, How can I put this open data on Wikidata is a question that I have been asked many times, this page was needed. Thanks for your comment! On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Micru! I think we should start by including datasets on wikisource, with descriptions about them (storing the files on commons where possible). And adding more data formats to the formats accepted on commons. I don't follow you... why would you put datasets on Wikisource when they are only used in Wikipedia and have to be stored somewhere else? As it is now, it doesn't seem a good dataset management solution. Besides that it would conflict with its identity as repository for textual sources.. About Commons I don't know if it is relevant to their mission as a sharing media platform either... I hope someone from their community can share their views. Thanks for the input, Micru ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness
Good point Asaf :-) 2014-05-15 5:20 GMT-03:00 Asaf Bartov abar...@wikimedia.org: This seems like very good advice, Tom. Have you tried it? A. On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org wrote: Hi, I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance of making mistakes http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm. Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking* http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20, and I would like to share here also: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/ How to compose a successful critical commentary: 1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way. 2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement). 3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target. 4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do it. Tom -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Request for comments: How to deal with open datasets?
David,
This is an interesting question. I think that a dataset is just like
any other table such as the ones included in Wikipedia, with lots more
entries and maybe even pieces attached that can't go on Wikipedia such
as pictures, audio, short films, pieces of software code, or other
media.
So I guess this page should be merged with the DataNamespace page. The
problem is how to reference a dataset or table. Images on Commons are
timestamped with a source link that is often {{self}}, but more often
a weblink somewhere that may or may not die within a year or two.
Since the image is something that you can't really change easily, this
is generally not an issue, but how do you see this with data that can
be manipulated? I don't really see how you can upload datasets as
whole blobs that will keep all the pieces together the way a .djvu
file keeps the text with the images.
Jane
2014-05-15 16:46 GMT+02:00, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com:
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com
wrote:
Thanks for the pointer, How can I put this open data on Wikidata is a
question that I have been asked many times, this page was needed.
Thanks for your comment!
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Micru! I think we should start by including datasets on
wikisource, with descriptions about them (storing the files on commons
where possible). And adding more data formats to the formats
accepted on commons.
I don't follow you... why would you put datasets on Wikisource when they
are only used in Wikipedia and have to be stored somewhere else? As it is
now, it doesn't seem a good dataset management solution.
Besides that it would conflict with its identity as repository for textual
sources..
About Commons I don't know if it is relevant to their mission as a sharing
media platform either... I hope someone from their community can share
their views.
Thanks for the input,
Micru
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Request for comments: How to deal with open datasets?
Jane,
Thanks for your input! I never thought as datasets as incorporating images,
but just as a table (whose elements might point to images, but not contain
them). Are people in the GLAM scene expecting other files embedded when
talking about datasets?
Well, if it is a standard format (csv or json), then it is easy to keep the
whole dataset together, you just need to consider it a text file, and then
you upload a new one, like any other file in Commons :)
Micru
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote:
David,
This is an interesting question. I think that a dataset is just like
any other table such as the ones included in Wikipedia, with lots more
entries and maybe even pieces attached that can't go on Wikipedia such
as pictures, audio, short films, pieces of software code, or other
media.
So I guess this page should be merged with the DataNamespace page. The
problem is how to reference a dataset or table. Images on Commons are
timestamped with a source link that is often {{self}}, but more often
a weblink somewhere that may or may not die within a year or two.
Since the image is something that you can't really change easily, this
is generally not an issue, but how do you see this with data that can
be manipulated? I don't really see how you can upload datasets as
whole blobs that will keep all the pieces together the way a .djvu
file keeps the text with the images.
Jane
2014-05-15 16:46 GMT+02:00, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com:
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Cristian Consonni
kikkocrist...@gmail.com
wrote:
Thanks for the pointer, How can I put this open data on Wikidata is a
question that I have been asked many times, this page was needed.
Thanks for your comment!
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Micru! I think we should start by including datasets on
wikisource, with descriptions about them (storing the files on commons
where possible). And adding more data formats to the formats
accepted on commons.
I don't follow you... why would you put datasets on Wikisource when they
are only used in Wikipedia and have to be stored somewhere else? As it is
now, it doesn't seem a good dataset management solution.
Besides that it would conflict with its identity as repository for
textual
sources..
About Commons I don't know if it is relevant to their mission as a
sharing
media platform either... I hope someone from their community can share
their views.
Thanks for the input,
Micru
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Etiamsi omnes, ego non
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comments: How to deal with open datasets?
Micru, There are several related aspects of datasets, that I would enumerate as: 1) Storing / archiving datasets 2) Editing / manipulating datasets 3) Using excerpts (e.g. specific data) from datasets Each of these involves a different, but related set of tools. It isn't entirely clear to me, but I think the question you started with is aimed at how we might use excerpts from externally managed datasets. For example, having a way to pull data from CKAN and have it appear in a Wikipedia article? That would remove steps one and two from immediate consideration, as someone else would be responsible for maintaining the data. On the other hand, the responses so far seem more aimed at question one, i.e. where / how would Wikimedia best store datasets. Personally, I think all parts of the question are ultimately important, as I would love for Wikimedia to have a complete data management solution. But am I correct in thinking that you asked the question primarily out of a desire to think about how we could use externally managed data sets? -Robert Rohde On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:25 AM, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, During the Zürich Hackathon I met several people that looked for solutions about how to integrate external open datasets into our projects (mainly Wikipedia, Wikidata). Since Wikidata is not the right tool to manage them (reasons explained in the RFC as discussed during the Wikidata session), I have felt convenient to centralize the discussion about potential requirements, needs, and how to approach this new changing landscape that didn't exist a few years ago. You will find more details here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/How_to_deal_with_open_datasets Your comments, thoughts and ideas are appreciated! Cheers, Micru ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Request for comments: How to deal with open datasets?
Hi Robert, TBH I asked the question as NPOV as possible because I have my own bias. By stating it in general terms I hope that the conversation isn't forced in any particular direction. There are technical limitations to reuse external datasets, like how do you control that the external site doesn't manage to inject malicious code into the visitors' browser, or how do you cache the data, or what happens when the source data changes or is no longer available... which doesn't mean that it cannot be overcome. In general I also tend to prefer a complete data management solution, because it is what we do in all our projects. We only use the files stored in Commons, like images, videos, books, sound... no exceptions (or at least I don't know any). OTOH, is it practical to import and standardize the data? I appreciate your thoughts. If you could write them on the talk page too, that would be great. And if you think that we should make a precision about the three aspects of datasets, please feel free to edit the RFC and let's address each one of them individually. Cheers, Micru On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Robert Rohde raro...@gmail.com wrote: Micru, There are several related aspects of datasets, that I would enumerate as: 1) Storing / archiving datasets 2) Editing / manipulating datasets 3) Using excerpts (e.g. specific data) from datasets Each of these involves a different, but related set of tools. It isn't entirely clear to me, but I think the question you started with is aimed at how we might use excerpts from externally managed datasets. For example, having a way to pull data from CKAN and have it appear in a Wikipedia article? That would remove steps one and two from immediate consideration, as someone else would be responsible for maintaining the data. On the other hand, the responses so far seem more aimed at question one, i.e. where / how would Wikimedia best store datasets. Personally, I think all parts of the question are ultimately important, as I would love for Wikimedia to have a complete data management solution. But am I correct in thinking that you asked the question primarily out of a desire to think about how we could use externally managed data sets? -Robert Rohde On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:25 AM, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, During the Zürich Hackathon I met several people that looked for solutions about how to integrate external open datasets into our projects (mainly Wikipedia, Wikidata). Since Wikidata is not the right tool to manage them (reasons explained in the RFC as discussed during the Wikidata session), I have felt convenient to centralize the discussion about potential requirements, needs, and how to approach this new changing landscape that didn't exist a few years ago. You will find more details here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/How_to_deal_with_open_datasets Your comments, thoughts and ideas are appreciated! Cheers, Micru ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Etiamsi omnes, ego non ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Request for comments: How to deal with open datasets?
On 15 May 2014 12:42, Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com wrote: You will find more details here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/How_to_deal_with_open_datasets Your comments, thoughts and ideas are appreciated! Thanks for the pointer, How can I put this open data on Wikidata is a question that I have been asked many times, this page was needed. Definitely agree that we needed something like this. There's a lot of confusion about what Wikidata is for, and what is and isn't appropriate for it - both from outsiders and from within the Wikimedia community. I've seen vague it's data, it'll go on Wikidata a few times, which is a bit like saying it's text, it'll go on Wikipedia ;-) Andrew. -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] This Month In Education: May 2014: Volume 3, Issue 5
This Month in Educationhttps://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletteris a monthly newsletter documenting recent happenings within the Wikimedia education community. Learn more about Wikipedia in Education at education.wikimedia.org. -- *This Month In Education: May 2014: Volume 3, Issue 5* Single page view https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter/May_2014/Single Wiki Camp 2014 at Vanadzor https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter/May_2014/Wiki_Camp_2014_at_Vanadzor EduWiki Conference in Belgrade 2014 https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter/May_2014/EduWiki_Conference_in_Belgrade_2014 Participation of Servicio Social students in Wikipedia grows at Tec de Monterrey https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter/May_2014/Participation_of_%22Servicio_Social%22_students_in_Wikipedia_grows_at_Tec_de_https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter/May_2014/Participation_of_%22Servicio_Social%22_students_in_Wikipedia_grows_at_Tec_de_Monterrey Egyptian students and professors celebrate last term's accomplishments https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter/May_2014/Egyptian_students_and_professors_celebrate_last_term%27s_accomplishments Wikimedia Sverige: Meeting the educators https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter/May_2014/Wikimedia_Sverige:_Meeting_the_educators Wikimedia Deutschland: Summary of activities in April 2014 https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter/May_2014/Articles_of_interest_in_other_publications Articles of interest in other publications https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter/May_2014/Wikimedia_Deutschland:_Summary_of_activities_in_April_2014 -- Add your story / Help with the next edition https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter/Newsroom -- *The This Month In Education Team* https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletterhttp://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
Kevin, Andreas, et al: It took me a couple days, but I've assembled my list of files, exceeding the 10 I had committed to: http://wikistrategies.net/wikimedia-commons-is-far-from-ethically-broken/ I hope this annotated list of interesting deletion discussions on Commons is helpful to those who don't regularly participate; there is so much activity there that can be difficult to track. Of course, it's not close to exhaustive; I'd welcome suggestions of additional examples to highlight, and if anybody wants to copy this to a wiki page for further expansion that's fine by me. Andreas, in response to your last message -- I'm perfectly fine with the examples you provided! I just happen to think they do a better job supporting my position (Commons is healthy and productive) than they do yours (Commons is broken). I understand you disagree, and that's fine. A final detail, directed mainly to Wil (and anybody interested in the Board resolution that's been discussed): I don't think it's been mentioned that the directive to develop an image suppression feature was rescinded a year later: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Personal_image_hiding_feature Anyway -- I hope we can have a bit more discussion about the decision-making practices at Commons, informed by a wider variety of specific examples than we have had so far in this discussion thread. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 9:53 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Admins and crats on commons have also historically made a large number of decisions that fly in the face of WMF board resolutions, often repeatedly. David Gerard's point is ringing very true here: you will not make this assertion more true merely by repeating it. Examples, please -- or else please drop it. Example 1: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/ObiWolf_Lesbian_Images_(6th_nomination) Clear violation (no evidence of model consent, photographer made clear the models wanted them off Commons). Took six attempts over several years to delete, despite a board member personally voting Delete in one or two prior nominations. Example 2: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Category:Sexual_penetrative_use_of_cucumbers Again, review the prior deletion discussions where these were kept. Models shown full-face, recognisable, no evidence whatsoever of model consent, geo-tagged to a precise street address. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
On 15 May 2014 23:20, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: A final detail, directed mainly to Wil (and anybody interested in the Board resolution that's been discussed): I don't think it's been mentioned that the directive to develop an image suppression feature was rescinded a year later: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Personal_image_hiding_feature The most important thing to remember about tihe image filter - and its enabling resolution, the principle of least surprise - is that this was such a *stupendously* bad idea that it very nearly led to the second hostile fork of a Wikimedia project. Thus, anyone citing the POLS without noting this is being disingenous at absolute best. (Look back through this thread. I see one aspirant to steward.) - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
Pete, you know the toothbrush image you talk about on your blog still shows up on a Commons search for electric toothbrush, right? It's in Category:Nude or partially nude people with electric toothbrusheshttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Nude_or_partially_nude_people_with_electric_toothbrusheswhich is in turn a subcategory of Category:People with electric toothbrusheshttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:People_with_electric_toothbrushesso it shows up on any search of electric toothbrush. Seems the whole category thing really isn't as solved as well as people think. It still comes up as image #4 on a multimedia search of enwiki for electric toothbrush and about #45 for a multimedia search of toothbrush. Even though the title was changed, it remains in the category that gives high-ranking searches. Risker/Anne On 15 May 2014 18:20, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Kevin, Andreas, et al: It took me a couple days, but I've assembled my list of files, exceeding the 10 I had committed to: http://wikistrategies.net/wikimedia-commons-is-far-from-ethically-broken/ I hope this annotated list of interesting deletion discussions on Commons is helpful to those who don't regularly participate; there is so much activity there that can be difficult to track. Of course, it's not close to exhaustive; I'd welcome suggestions of additional examples to highlight, and if anybody wants to copy this to a wiki page for further expansion that's fine by me. Andreas, in response to your last message -- I'm perfectly fine with the examples you provided! I just happen to think they do a better job supporting my position (Commons is healthy and productive) than they do yours (Commons is broken). I understand you disagree, and that's fine. A final detail, directed mainly to Wil (and anybody interested in the Board resolution that's been discussed): I don't think it's been mentioned that the directive to develop an image suppression feature was rescinded a year later: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Personal_image_hiding_feature Anyway -- I hope we can have a bit more discussion about the decision-making practices at Commons, informed by a wider variety of specific examples than we have had so far in this discussion thread. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 9:53 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Admins and crats on commons have also historically made a large number of decisions that fly in the face of WMF board resolutions, often repeatedly. David Gerard's point is ringing very true here: you will not make this assertion more true merely by repeating it. Examples, please -- or else please drop it. Example 1: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/ObiWolf_Lesbian_Images_(6th_nomination) Clear violation (no evidence of model consent, photographer made clear the models wanted them off Commons). Took six attempts over several years to delete, despite a board member personally voting Delete in one or two prior nominations. Example 2: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Category:Sexual_penetrative_use_of_cucumbers Again, review the prior deletion discussions where these were kept. Models shown full-face, recognisable, no evidence whatsoever of model consent, geo-tagged to a precise street address. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
Pete, I am sure that I speak on behalf of all of the Commons community when I say that it is disheartening to continually hear the mantra commons is broken, when that could not be further from the truth. Your blog post, helps to present some of that reality, so I thank you, both on my behalf and on behalf of the Commons community. I will have some comments later on a couple of issues. Risker, Of course the image still shows up on search for electric toothbrush. If you read the closure on that DR, which I wrote in conjunction with 3 other admins, the issue is very clear. It's not a Commons problem, but a WMF problem. Cheers Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
On 15 May 2014 22:22, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote: Pete, I am sure that I speak on behalf of all of the Commons community when I say that it is disheartening to continually hear the mantra commons is broken, when that could not be further from the truth. Your blog post, helps to present some of that reality, so I thank you, both on my behalf and on behalf of the Commons community. I will have some comments later on a couple of issues. Risker, Of course the image still shows up on search for electric toothbrush. If you read the closure on that DR, which I wrote in conjunction with 3 other admins, the issue is very clear. It's not a Commons problem, but a WMF problem. Cheers The solution to the problem is entirely within the control of Commons - recategorize the image to improvised vibrators instead of electric toothbrush and you're done. I wouldn't dare do it myself, it would be the kind of provocative activity from someone who doesn't really understand Commons that could result in my being blocked. I do understand that much about Commons and its culture. Risker ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
Nathan wrote: A lot of the issues Kevin is probably referring to revolve around the 2011 debate, and many of the most blatant problems have since been cleaned up. Perhaps some of the most blatant problems have been addressed, but I'm skeptical. I admit I haven't been following this discussion terribly closely, but I just looked at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Controversial_content/Problems again and the first link I clicked... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/asian The first result is File:Asian vulva.jpg while the third result is File:Asian penis.jpg. Perhaps our search capability is simply really bad. Personally, I would expect a search for the term asian to show pictures of Asians. I think there's room for at least consideration of lessons from other fields, such as the principle of least astonishment. Another way of framing this particular issue (search) might be: are the results users receiving what they were looking for or expected? I think in many cases, image search is failing our users. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.comwrote: Andreas, in response to your last message -- I'm perfectly fine with the examples you provided! I just happen to think they do a better job supporting my position (Commons is healthy and productive) I'd have been more impressed if Commons had got there by itself, without massive mailing list discussions carrying on for weeks. http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/commons-l/2012-March/006409.html http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/commons-l/2012-April/date.html than they do yours (Commons is broken). I understand you disagree, and that's fine. Don't put words in my mouth, Pete. Commons is broken is a Jimmy Wales quote. I do think Commons has some ways to go, though, on adult material. File names that make no pretence at using educational wording are one such area. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Pete, you know the toothbrush image you talk about on your blog still shows up on a Commons search for electric toothbrush, right? It's in Category:Nude or partially nude people with electric toothbrushes https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Nude_or_partially_nude_people_with_electric_toothbrushes which is in turn a subcategory of Category:People with electric toothbrushes https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:People_with_electric_toothbrushes so it shows up on any search of electric toothbrush. Seems the whole category thing really isn't as solved as well as people think. It still comes up as image #4 on a multimedia search of enwiki for electric toothbrush and about #45 for a multimedia search of toothbrush. Even though the title was changed, it remains in the category that gives high-ranking searches. Quite. Same goes for beads, flashlight, or the French word for cucumber (concombre). The tolling bells toll as loudly as ever. This Wikipedia search form is SFW (safe for work): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Searchsearch=fulltext=Searchprofile=images The search results for the above terms (and many others) are not SFW. The NSFW search results issue never was solved. It's just one of those things there was no political will to fix. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 9:42 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Nathan wrote: A lot of the issues Kevin is probably referring to revolve around the 2011 debate, and many of the most blatant problems have since been cleaned up. Perhaps some of the most blatant problems have been addressed, but I'm skeptical. I admit I haven't been following this discussion terribly closely, but I just looked at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Controversial_content/Problems again and the first link I clicked... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/asian The first result is File:Asian vulva.jpg while the third result is File:Asian penis.jpg. Perhaps our search capability is simply really bad. Personally, I would expect a search for the term asian to show pictures of Asians. I think there's room for at least consideration of lessons from other fields, such as the principle of least astonishment. Another way of framing this particular issue (search) might be: are the results users receiving what they were looking for or expected? I think in many cases, image search is failing our users. We're getting a long way off topic of the still frame on MOTD, but I agree, and wish that the WMF would make this a priority for their multimedia and search team. Many improvements have been suggested by the community, and both sides of the fence have even agreed on some of them, such as clustered search results: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Controversial_content/Brainstorming#Clustering_for_search_results_on_Commons https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35701 -- John Vandenberg ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
Risker,
The solution to the problem is entirely within the control of Commons -
recategorize the image to improvised vibrators instead of electric
toothbrush and you're done. I wouldn't dare do it myself, it would be the
kinunderstandd of provocative activity from someone who doesn't really
Commons that could result in my being blocked. I do understand that much
about Commons and its culture.
I will respond to your last point first. I, as well as many other
Commonists/Commoners/whatever, make ourselves available on IRC in
#wikimedia-commons, and we often have people visiting the channel with
queries on images. I recall only ever having seen you on two occasions
in that channel, and I remember both occasions vividly, because I said
g'day on both occasions, and assisted you.
The first occasion you brought to our attention a logo which was on
Commons, and which was an obvious copyright violation. I proceeded to
immediately delete the file, and explained to you that in future you
can simply apply {{copyvio}} to the file in question and it would be
dealt with. It's not because we don't mind people using IRC to bring
files to our attention, because we don't mind at all, it's just that
workflows on Commons in that area are dealt with pretty quickly, as
this attests to,[1] and it would you to streamline your time as well.
The second occasion you brought to our attention a sexual image, and
upon looking at it I immediately deleted it as being out of scope. I
didn't bother taking it to DR, and have deleted literally hundreds of
sexual images from Commons this way by using the discretion that the
community places in admins. You were thanked for bringing it to our
attention, and I told you not to hesitate to contact me directly if
you should come across other such images in future, and I would review
them, and deal with them as appropriate.
This just doesn't align with the Commons and its culture that you
understand, does it? But ok, let's use an example which could result
in an editor being blocked.
There was a thread on Gendergap which discussed some images on
Commons.[2] As a result of this thread, an English Wikipedia
Bureaucrat, and an only occasional admin on Commons, proceeded to mass
delete the entire lot of images, many of which had been through a
deletion request in the past, and some of which were in use.[3] As
Pete Forsyth mentioned,[4] EVula showed utter contempt for Commons
process and really should have gone through the de-admin process. How
did that pan out?[5]
But of course, you, with a grand total of 303 edits on Commons going
back to 2007 (most of which comprises of voting on Picture of the
Year) are speaking from a position of experience when you say you
understand Commons and its culture. So you'll excuse me, but it is a
bit rich you saying that, and see your comments as insanely out of
touch with the reality.[6] And, quite frankly, you should ensure your
own house is in order, before making ill-informed judgments on
project culture as you have made. Would you like me to provide a prime
example of what I mean? And it is a most disgusting episode I can tell
you, and list members would cringe with horror if they were to see
this example. Tell me if you would like to hear the example, and I'll
start a new thread on it. It could also generate discussion on an
issue which afflicts our projects.
Now, Risker, the solution to the problem that you have described lies
not in censoring Commons, which is essentially what you have
suggested, but in what is written in the closure of the DR.
Unfortunately, that would require some money to be spent on fixing the
problem, and would stop anti-Commons tirades as we are seeing here and
elsewhere.
It would appear that the WMF is more interested in spending money on
having Indian students inserting copyright violations en masse on
English Wikipedia[7] and other such nonsense. I do totally sympathise
with the Indian students, however,[8] because I have contacted
relevant people at the WMF on numerous occasions, but unlike the
Indian students I have never received a response (usual for the WMF
unfortunately).
I have been told that it might cost $10-20,000 to get someone to
write code to implement the solution that sees varied support amongst
different camps,[9] (including support by a WMF Trustee) yet here we
are, the WMF has $60+ million budgets, spends $1.5 million to fly the
entire WMF staff for a junket to Hong Kong, and a host of other
wasteful spending, and yet one of the most prominent issues on our
projects is actively ignored.
You're close with the WMF Risker, why don't you lobby them for a
solution as was pointed out in that DR closure? It would certainly go
a huge way to fixing the problem if they would spend some real money
on search and implement solutions that the community so direly
requires.
Perhaps, finally, we can drop the the anti-Commons combative attitude
as has been so prevalent in this thread, and other projects can work
with
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Commons' frontpage probably shouldn't prominently feature a decontextualised stack of corpses.
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 10:03 PM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: We're getting a long way off topic of the still frame on MOTD, but I agree, and wish that the WMF would make this a priority for their multimedia and search team. Many improvements have been suggested by the community, and both sides of the fence have even agreed on some of them, such as clustered search results: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Controversial_content/Brainstorming#Clustering_for_search_results_on_Commons https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35701 First, as general background, WMF recently started migrating its search infrastructure over to ElasticSearch. See: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Search https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:CirrusSearch The new search is available on Commons as a BetaFeature. It's worth looking at search results that are viewed as problematic through the new search and compare. For example, the results for Asian are markedly different in the new search. I would caution against a simplistic characterization of technology as a solution for what's inherently a complex socio-technical problem. That was a core issue with the image filter proposal and it's a similar issue here. If people insist on uploading pictures of masturbation with toothbrushes, those pictures will come up in searches. If we insist on not having a distinction between explicit and non-explicit materials in file metadata, search results won't have it either. We can point the finger at technology because that's easy, but it's not magical pixie dust. To get a feel for ElasticSearch's capabilities, please see the help page above, as well as the tech talk that Nik gave earlier today on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FubXExbAvOA Capabilities that exist today with the new search include template-based boosting of results, a feature that's already enabled on Commons and which will boost quality content in search results: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Cirrussearch-boost-templatesaction=edit ElasticSearch has support for faceting (see http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-facets.html ), which might come in handy for creating a breakdown of search results. However, keep in mind that unless you collapse each facet by default, you're still going to show explicit thumbs -- and collapsing results by default could compromise usability to an unacceptable degree for the common use case. The more complex suggestions that include taking the full category tree into account also seem fairly complex/expensive (ElasticSearch has no awareness of the actual category tree structure, which is a complex structure to traverse) and a faceted search that only operates on the specific categories associated with a given file might not be very useful due to the high degree of granularity that exists in the category structure. I'd encourage Nik and Chad (search engineers) to weigh in here on the bug as they see fit, as well as correct me if I'm misrepresenting anything in the above. Cheers, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
