Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-03 Thread geni
On 2 June 2014 14:38, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: £2600, our current estimate, seems good value. Some bloke is charging me £120 to come and tell me my dishwasher is broken These things are hard to calculate. You could however get a Canon EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro and a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-02 Thread Jon Davies
There is no intention to hide the costs to the chapter of the Chapter's involvement in the Wikiconference Berlin, but it is not a simple calculation. One person was asking for trustee expenses, others are asking how much we (WMUK) spent on the entire conference (including staff, volunteers,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-02 Thread Nathan
On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: There is no intention to hide the costs to the chapter of the Chapter's involvement in the Wikiconference Berlin, but it is not a simple calculation. One person was asking for trustee expenses, others are asking

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-02 Thread Jon Davies
£2600, our current estimate, seems good value. Some bloke is charging me £120 to come and tell me my dishwasher is broken On 2 June 2014 14:35, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: There is no intention to hide

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-02 Thread Jon Davies
£2600 for everything. Got to get on! Don't want to get accused of hogging the lists! On 2 June 2014 14:48, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: £2600, our current estimate, seems good value. Some bloke is charging me

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-02 Thread Nathan
On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: £2600 for everything. Got to get on! Don't want to get accused of hogging the lists! Thanks Jon! Sorry for my confusion, appreciate the response. (And its a new month, and a new posting limit!).

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-02 Thread Russavia
Jon, On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: £2600, our current estimate, seems good value. Some bloke is charging me £120 to come and tell me my dishwasher is broken And I can tell you that the conference hasn't resulted in a single new long-term

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-02 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Russavia, Do you remember like me reading why these people came to this conference? In that light, do your remarks provide us with any connection to these objectives? .Do you know the topics of the presentations given? Do you know the topics of the conversations that happened inside and outside

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-02 Thread Michael Peel
On 2 Jun 2014, at 13:27, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: So for trustee expenses: not all of the board went as trustees, as two (at least) were invited as speakers - reporting that as a trustee cost wouldn't be accurate. As to staff – I attended as the Chief Executive, but the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-02 Thread Richard Symonds
In short, because that's what UK charity best practice, outlined in the SORP, says we have to do when preparing accounts. Every charity in the UK does this because our regulator believes it's the most transparent way of doing things. Basically, if people go as trustees, it's a governance cost.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-01 Thread Russavia
Fae, On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 1:05 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 April 2014 16:12, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: ... This could help reduce costs and avoid any duplication? I can now confirm that Wikimedia UK is not going to make a public report of the total costs of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-01 Thread
On 1 June 2014 10:53, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: charge and let others get on where you stopped being the big man ? I was never the big man. I have only ever been an unpaid volunteer like everyone else. is a Dutch proverb.. you attempt to rule from the grave and people

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-01 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, No need to drop dead. What I want you to take is more positive role, I said as much.. I want you to try the role of an elder statesman.. Their influence is because of their positive comments and their insight and help move things forward smoothly. You may try to assume you had a humble role

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-06-01 Thread Nathan
On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 4:36 AM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote: I have read the links that you have provided and I find it totally unacceptable that an organisation can not provide costs for sending 8 people on a junket to New York. When I have operated businesses in the real

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-05-30 Thread
On 2 April 2014 16:12, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: ... This could help reduce costs and avoid any duplication? I can now confirm that Wikimedia UK is not going to make a public report of the total costs of sending 8 people to the Wikimedia Conference 2014. I doubt that Jon

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-02 Thread Steve Zhang
Hi all, I'll just start off by saying these are my own personal views and don't necessarily represent the views of the rest of the WMAU committee or Wikimedia Australia as a whole. My view on spending funds might be seen as a bit extreme, but I believe that funds received through the APG process

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-02 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, There is a big difference between being frugal and being effective. There is no point to underspend when it affects effectivity in a negative manner. Yes, it is important that people are mindful of the sources of the money involved. This is as important for us as it is for a government where

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-02 Thread Steve Zhang
Hi Gerard, My email is not to criticise the decision WMUK made to send more than the majority of chapters, but to make my view (as I was asked off list my view, and I think given the discussion it was worth sharing on-list) that regardless of whether the funds a chapter or organisation has at

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-02 Thread Itzik Edri
I less think this is question of budget (also, and I'm one of the big criticizers of the movement travels expenses), and rather the question of the concept of the conference. Yes, people can achieve a lot from attending in conferences - and we don't limit the number of people who can come to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-02 Thread Jens Best
But if people who think that the 2+1-rule is questionable with good arguments can't come to the conference because of the 2+1 rule the whole thing becomes a bit difficult. Not everybody is keen on discussing such things on mailinglists, especially when the decisions aren't made on such lists, but

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-02 Thread Risker
I think the biggest challenge here is that there are dozens of movement members who would be interested in attending this conference, but it is intended to be a very limited one. Several of the topics (Conflict of Interest, Meet the Trustees, Lessons learnt on huge projects, How to measure blood,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-02 Thread Jon Davies
How about expanding its scope but alternating it with Wikimania, so one every other year? This could help reduce costs and avoid any duplication? On 2 April 2014 15:59, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: I think the biggest challenge here is that there are dozens of movement members who

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-02 Thread Cristian Consonni
(my 2cents here, not speaking in any capacity besides my personal free will) 2014-04-02 14:32 GMT+02:00 Jens Best jens.b...@wikimedia.de: Have a nice time in Berlin, maybe I will drop by on some of the evening events at least. :) May I say? Please come by also at the conference. I understand

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-01 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Money entrusted to a chapter is for that chapter to spend as they see fit. The notion that it is money from the public is not a license for everyone to meddle. There are people and places where such scrutiny is best expressed. When questions are asked, let them be questions and not implicit

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-01 Thread Nicole Ebber
I am glad that 1,5 weeks before the conference, there is finally some activity showing up on the lists and the meta pages. I must admit that I would have really loved to see more engagement on topics like conference goals and themes, support for the programme team regarding programme decisions,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-01 Thread Chris Keating
I agree with Nicole. There is definitely a conversation to be had about the purpose of the Wikimedia Conference and how the movement gets the most out of it. That is quite a broad question, but once it is answered then there will be a clear answer about how many people should or can be allowed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-04-01 Thread Itzik Edri
Sorry Nicole, but I'm unhappy with your answer. You are right, engagement on other topics is needed, but this is not means people don't have the right to ask questions and raise concerns. We didn't have this discussions last year, as none of the chapter sent more then 2+1. There were few people

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Video conferencing is ok-ish.. at best. It does not give you the opportunity that face to face communications gives you. It does not allow you to get through the fog of misunderstanding, Really, when the right people go for the right reasons, it pays its dividents. Cost is only one criteria

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 03/31/2014 08:23 AM, Marc A. Pelletier wrote: That seems niether all that surprising nor all that costly Oh, D'oh! Wrong conference! Ignore me, and move along. :-) -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread
On 31 March 2014 12:02, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Video conferencing is ok-ish.. at best. It does not give you the opportunity that face to face communications gives you. It does not allow you to get through the fog of misunderstanding, Really, when the right

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, When there is enough money to go around, efficacy should be the primary consideration. When charitable funds are available and they are not spend because of misplaced frugality, it is obvious to me that priorities are out of kilter. Your second arguments makes more sense but also up to a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Itzik Edri
I don't think the costs are the issue here, neither if there is streaming or not (and I don't think we need to have one. It's WMCconf, not Wikimania). But we have strict rule - two representatives, 3 if you have ED. I also saw that some chapters have more than that, and I really don't know why.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread
On 31 March 2014 14:08, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, When there is enough money to go around, efficacy should be the primary consideration. When charitable funds are available and they are not spend because of misplaced frugality, it is obvious to me that priorities

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Cristian Consonni
2014-03-31 11:47 GMT+02:00 Fæ fae...@gmail.com: This seems to not be the case looking at the proposed attendee list[1] with the UK sending a massive party of 8 people (excluding Wikimania representatives), significantly larger than any other Chapter or Thorg. Well, the question then is can

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Fae what I object to is assuming going to a conference with too big a delegation is a waste of money by definition. In your reply you mention * you were a chair of the chapter and, * you do not know Katherine Ruth. Given that you were the chair of the chapter, you should be happy new people

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Bence Damokos
Please note that this year the invitation to the conference states Organizations who would like to send more than two persons will have to book and pay for all their travel and accommodation themselves. - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Conference_2014/Registration - There is no more a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread
On 31 March 2014 14:59, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: ... Really Fae, as you are no longer the chair, why rule from the grave? Thanks, Thanks Gerard, I'll return to being dead and buried now. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Russavia
Gerard, et al On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.comwrote: My point is very much that it is for the chapter to decide if they spend their money wisely. It is for members of a chapter to question this at an appropriate time and at an appropriate place.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Jon Davies
A few points. There is no policy to restrict participation to three representatives. Indeed, many chapters are sending more than three delegates as has been the case in previous years. For the record we have people going for four reasons: - CEO and Chair as standard - Two staff and one

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread
On 31 March 2014 16:23, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: ... For the record we have people going for four reasons: - CEO and Chair as standard - Two staff and one trustee who are invited to do presentations on areas of strength in the chapter. - Two trustees (we are

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Jon Davies
You are right - eight. as Chris is going as well. The reasons remain the same. On 31 March 2014 17:00, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 March 2014 16:23, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: ... For the record we have people going for four reasons: - CEO and Chair as

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Simon Knight
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014 On 31 March 2014 16:23, Jon Davies jon.dav...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: ... For the record we have people going for four reasons: - CEO and Chair as standard - Two staff and one trustee who are invited to do presentations on areas

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cost of Wikimedia Conference 2014

2014-03-31 Thread Itzik Edri
This is totally surprise for me. I checked the last years participation lists, and none of the chapters sent more than 2+1 representatives. The idea all this years was very simple: to keep the conference small as possible in order to have effective discussions, and to allow all the chapter to be