Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[rupert THURNER]

you know that we agree on most topics lodewijk.  but on this one we do not
:) i d be glad if i can make a picture of something by what i read and not
by what i am allowed to read by an arbitrary list moderator, who probably
does not even have my cultural context.

if somebody does write too often without adding value anybody on the list
is free to drop a private mail to this person. this works. especially  this
works with russavia.

rupert.
 Am 19.06.2014 09:20 schrieb "Lodewijk" :

> Please note that moderation is not a punishment: it is imposed as a measure
> to avoid future posts within a certain pattern of expectation when there
> are reasonable grounds to do so.
>
> I think many people will agree that Russavia has been uncivil on quite a
> few occasios - I would even go as far as that I'm not surprised any more if
> (s)he is uncivil on this list. Therefore, I think there is a reasonable
> expectation that the pattern will continue - and I find it acceptable to
> moderate a person in such a situation to ensure future posts will be
> posterboys of civilty (well, or at least somewhat moderate).
>
> I'm confident that the list moderators will moderate timely, will let
> through decent posts that approach civilty and that they will remove the
> moderation once the expectation of uncivil posts has been reversed (for
> example, when Russavia stopped making them).
>
> I do second the insinuated requests by Tomasz and Fae that other people
> should be held to the same standards in the future, and they be moderated
> too when a pattern of uncivil behavior develops.
>
> Best,
> Lodewijk
>
>
> 2014-06-19 1:31 GMT+02:00 Nathan :
>
> > On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 7:19 PM, Fæ  wrote:
> > >
> > > I have taken a moment to find a relevant reference to back up my
> > > memory, see [1] which shows Salvio giuliano vigorously defending his
> > > use of the word "butthurt". Salvio giulano is a current English
> > > Wikipedia Arbcom member. I have not bothered to research further use
> > > of this word by other current or past Arbcom members.
> > >
> > > I think most readers of this list will find it odd to see that
> > > "butthurt" used in a mild and colourful context on this list by
> > > Russavia, gets highlighted and becomes a matter of objection by
> > > Newyorkbrad, a current Arbcom member, resulting in Russavia being
> > > moderated for an unspecified duration, while another Arbcom member has
> > > previously stated that his use of the same rude word is perfectly
> > > appropriate and legitimate public behaviour for himself in the rough
> > > and tumble of frank discussion.
> > >
> > > Could the rationale for moderation be restated please, so that
> > > Russavia better understands what was unacceptable about his post here,
> > > and could we please have an idea as to what duration moderation is
> > > expected?
> > >
> > > Links
> > > 1.
> > >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/CheckUser_and_Oversight/2012_CUOS_appointments/OS/Salvio_giuliano&diff=499668471&oldid=499659747
> > >
> > > PS I have not discussed this email with Russavia, nor has Russavia
> > > canvassed me about it.
> > >
> > > Fae
> > > --
> > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is the same discussion where you described using the word butthurt
> as
> > offensive in any context, inflammatory, uncivil, disrespectful and
> possibly
> > defamatory? What, again, was your complaint with Russavia being moderated
> > for writing it?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[Lodewijk]

I cannot help but wonder, what good you hope to accomplish with this rant.

Seriously, if you insist on making personal attacks like this, just send a
private email.

Best,
Lodewijk


2014-06-19 15:48 GMT+02:00 MZMcBride :

> Austin Hair wrote:
> >It's true that there have been periods where this list hasn't been
> >watched as closely as at other times [...]
>
> That's an awfully generous way of putting it. If you're no longer
> interested in being a list moderator, you could always step down. There
> are plenty of dedicated and active volunteers willing to help moderate
> this list. I'm not sure if others feel the same way, but I would be very
> glad to see you resign as I feel you're some mixture of an absentee
> landlord and a mandarin, clinging to this role for no particularly good
> reason. Unfortunately, neither of these labels fits quite right and I've
> yet to find the perfect word to capture this pattern of behavior.
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[MZMcBride]

Austin Hair wrote:
>It's true that there have been periods where this list hasn't been
>watched as closely as at other times [...]

That's an awfully generous way of putting it. If you're no longer
interested in being a list moderator, you could always step down. There
are plenty of dedicated and active volunteers willing to help moderate
this list. I'm not sure if others feel the same way, but I would be very
glad to see you resign as I feel you're some mixture of an absentee
landlord and a mandarin, clinging to this role for no particularly good
reason. Unfortunately, neither of these labels fits quite right and I've
yet to find the perfect word to capture this pattern of behavior.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[Austin Hair]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Lodewijk  wrote:
> Please note that moderation is not a punishment: it is imposed as a measure
> to avoid future posts within a certain pattern of expectation when there
> are reasonable grounds to do so.

Absolutely correct. Moderated posts stand a good chance of continuing
on to the list, so long as they aren't furthering whatever caused
their sender's posts to be held.

> I think many people will agree that Russavia has been uncivil on quite a
> few occasios - I would even go as far as that I'm not surprised any more if
> (s)he is uncivil on this list. Therefore, I think there is a reasonable
> expectation that the pattern will continue - and I find it acceptable to
> moderate a person in such a situation to ensure future posts will be
> posterboys of civilty (well, or at least somewhat moderate).
>
> I'm confident that the list moderators will moderate timely, will let
> through decent posts that approach civilty and that they will remove the
> moderation once the expectation of uncivil posts has been reversed (for
> example, when Russavia stopped making them).

I think the note Richard sent about the action unintentionally drew
too much attention to one particular word, when the reality is that it
was the result of a pattern of behavior that we finally deemed to be
"too much." And while he remains on moderation, the one message I've
seen Russavia send since was allowed to be posted, because—as Lodewijk
points out—moderation is not a punitive ban.

> I do second the insinuated requests by Tomasz and Fae that other people
> should be held to the same standards in the future, and they be moderated
> too when a pattern of uncivil behavior develops.

It's true that there have been periods where this list hasn't been
watched as closely as at other times, and I understand that this can
seem downright unfair. I will say that at least the default is to err
on the side of leniency, but we'll do our best to continue with
even-handed oversight.

Austin

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[Lodewijk]

Please note that moderation is not a punishment: it is imposed as a measure
to avoid future posts within a certain pattern of expectation when there
are reasonable grounds to do so.

I think many people will agree that Russavia has been uncivil on quite a
few occasios - I would even go as far as that I'm not surprised any more if
(s)he is uncivil on this list. Therefore, I think there is a reasonable
expectation that the pattern will continue - and I find it acceptable to
moderate a person in such a situation to ensure future posts will be
posterboys of civilty (well, or at least somewhat moderate).

I'm confident that the list moderators will moderate timely, will let
through decent posts that approach civilty and that they will remove the
moderation once the expectation of uncivil posts has been reversed (for
example, when Russavia stopped making them).

I do second the insinuated requests by Tomasz and Fae that other people
should be held to the same standards in the future, and they be moderated
too when a pattern of uncivil behavior develops.

Best,
Lodewijk


2014-06-19 1:31 GMT+02:00 Nathan :

> On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 7:19 PM, Fæ  wrote:
> >
> > I have taken a moment to find a relevant reference to back up my
> > memory, see [1] which shows Salvio giuliano vigorously defending his
> > use of the word "butthurt". Salvio giulano is a current English
> > Wikipedia Arbcom member. I have not bothered to research further use
> > of this word by other current or past Arbcom members.
> >
> > I think most readers of this list will find it odd to see that
> > "butthurt" used in a mild and colourful context on this list by
> > Russavia, gets highlighted and becomes a matter of objection by
> > Newyorkbrad, a current Arbcom member, resulting in Russavia being
> > moderated for an unspecified duration, while another Arbcom member has
> > previously stated that his use of the same rude word is perfectly
> > appropriate and legitimate public behaviour for himself in the rough
> > and tumble of frank discussion.
> >
> > Could the rationale for moderation be restated please, so that
> > Russavia better understands what was unacceptable about his post here,
> > and could we please have an idea as to what duration moderation is
> > expected?
> >
> > Links
> > 1.
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/CheckUser_and_Oversight/2012_CUOS_appointments/OS/Salvio_giuliano&diff=499668471&oldid=499659747
> >
> > PS I have not discussed this email with Russavia, nor has Russavia
> > canvassed me about it.
> >
> > Fae
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
>
>
>
> This is the same discussion where you described using the word butthurt as
> offensive in any context, inflammatory, uncivil, disrespectful and possibly
> defamatory? What, again, was your complaint with Russavia being moderated
> for writing it?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[Nathan]

On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 7:19 PM, Fæ  wrote:
>
> I have taken a moment to find a relevant reference to back up my
> memory, see [1] which shows Salvio giuliano vigorously defending his
> use of the word "butthurt". Salvio giulano is a current English
> Wikipedia Arbcom member. I have not bothered to research further use
> of this word by other current or past Arbcom members.
>
> I think most readers of this list will find it odd to see that
> "butthurt" used in a mild and colourful context on this list by
> Russavia, gets highlighted and becomes a matter of objection by
> Newyorkbrad, a current Arbcom member, resulting in Russavia being
> moderated for an unspecified duration, while another Arbcom member has
> previously stated that his use of the same rude word is perfectly
> appropriate and legitimate public behaviour for himself in the rough
> and tumble of frank discussion.
>
> Could the rationale for moderation be restated please, so that
> Russavia better understands what was unacceptable about his post here,
> and could we please have an idea as to what duration moderation is
> expected?
>
> Links
> 1.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/CheckUser_and_Oversight/2012_CUOS_appointments/OS/Salvio_giuliano&diff=499668471&oldid=499659747
>
> PS I have not discussed this email with Russavia, nor has Russavia
> canvassed me about it.
>
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>



This is the same discussion where you described using the word butthurt as
offensive in any context, inflammatory, uncivil, disrespectful and possibly
defamatory? What, again, was your complaint with Russavia being moderated
for writing it?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[Fæ]

On 14 June 2014 15:08, Fæ  wrote:
...
> Hi Richard, thanks for specifying a reason for moderation. Could you
> define what you intend "limited time" to be, particularly as I believe
> there is no public appeals process. A month of moderation given
> "acceptable use"?
...
> that from *my human memory*, some current or past English Wikipedia
> Arbcom members have used the word "butthurt" to describe other
> editors. In comparison the far more disruptive and offensive word
...
> for civility, it would seem odd to moderate Russavia's access to this
> list for using a word that the most trusted of Wikipedia contributors
> use themselves, and defend the use by others, when they interpret the
> civility guidelines. Perhaps you might think of re-stating the
> rationale?

I have taken a moment to find a relevant reference to back up my
memory, see [1] which shows Salvio giuliano vigorously defending his
use of the word "butthurt". Salvio giulano is a current English
Wikipedia Arbcom member. I have not bothered to research further use
of this word by other current or past Arbcom members.

I think most readers of this list will find it odd to see that
"butthurt" used in a mild and colourful context on this list by
Russavia, gets highlighted and becomes a matter of objection by
Newyorkbrad, a current Arbcom member, resulting in Russavia being
moderated for an unspecified duration, while another Arbcom member has
previously stated that his use of the same rude word is perfectly
appropriate and legitimate public behaviour for himself in the rough
and tumble of frank discussion.

Could the rationale for moderation be restated please, so that
Russavia better understands what was unacceptable about his post here,
and could we please have an idea as to what duration moderation is
expected?

Links
1. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/CheckUser_and_Oversight/2012_CUOS_appointments/OS/Salvio_giuliano&diff=499668471&oldid=499659747

PS I have not discussed this email with Russavia, nor has Russavia
canvassed me about it.

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[Austin Hair]

Stepping in just to address one general point, and in no way speaking
for Richard:

We don't have a list of "bad words," or any kind of points-based
system that we use to trigger moderation. Russavia has also not been
banned; he's still free to post, and his e-mails will be let through
as long as they meet the level of civility generally expected of
mature individuals. Wikimedia-l is not governed by enwiki policy, but
if you seriously have to ask what "civil" is, you might start with the
link Richard shared.

Austin


On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski
 wrote:
> Richard Ames writes:
>
>> I have set the moderation bit on Russavia's address for a limited time.
>
> I find it interesting to see how list moderators are applying different
> standards to different people here.  I cannot remember you moderating Will
> Sinclair when he was clearly overflowing this list last month, nor can I
> remember you moderating Pierre-Selim when he vented his frustrations here,
> also last month.
>
> Perhaps the word 'butthurt' is on a blacklist somewhere, or perhaps one needs
> to be closely associated to the Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director to
> have a blind eye turned on when they do not follow list guidelines?
>
> PS Apologies if this is breaking the thread; I'm responding to this e-mail
> via the Gmane gateway.
>
> Tomasz
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[Tomasz W . Kozlowski]

Richard Ames writes:

> I have set the moderation bit on Russavia's address for a limited time. 

I find it interesting to see how list moderators are applying different 
standards to different people here.  I cannot remember you moderating Will 
Sinclair when he was clearly overflowing this list last month, nor can I 
remember you moderating Pierre-Selim when he vented his frustrations here, 
also last month.

Perhaps the word 'butthurt' is on a blacklist somewhere, or perhaps one needs 
to be closely associated to the Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director to 
have a blind eye turned on when they do not follow list guidelines?

PS Apologies if this is breaking the thread; I'm responding to this e-mail 
via the Gmane gateway.

Tomasz


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[Fæ]

On 14 June 2014 14:22, Richard Ames  wrote:
> I have set the moderation bit on Russavia's address for a limited time.
> I've asked Russavia to focus on issues only; in the spirit of
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility

Hi Richard, thanks for specifying a reason for moderation. Could you
define what you intend "limited time" to be, particularly as I believe
there is no public appeals process. A month of moderation given
"acceptable use"?

I do NOT find the word "butthurt" in any discussion acceptable, it
would be a reason for me to stop reading. However this is my "thin
skin" which I have been subject to robust public criticism for. Were
Russavia to ask me for advice on these things, I would ask that he
avoid vulgarity, it only distracts from the real points he wants to
make, which on the whole I find benefit the Wikimedia movement,
especially when we compare Russavia's dynamic actions to support
meaningful free speech, which based on recent press interviews is
exactly the same goal as Jimmy Wales.

With regard to the rationale for moderation, I would like to point out
that from *my human memory*, some current or past English Wikipedia
Arbcom members have used the word "butthurt" to describe other
editors. In comparison the far more disruptive and offensive word
"fuck" or telling editors to "fuck off" seems supported as appropriate
by the community of editors, based on discussions this year as well as
in the past (I'm recalling a discussion that was on Jimbo's talk page
and a thread on ANI when an editor used these words against Russavia).
Perhaps someone could track down an example(s) of current or past
Arbcom members using "butthurt", as it will take me a few days to get
around to running a search from scratch to provide a diff? Anyway, I'm
certain that although the civility policy mentions "rudeness", if
asked, Arbcom would not object to "butthurt" as a colloquialism in
discussion.

As this moderation appears based on the English Wikipedia's guideline
for civility, it would seem odd to moderate Russavia's access to this
list for using a word that the most trusted of Wikipedia contributors
use themselves, and defend the use by others, when they interpret the
civility guidelines. Perhaps you might think of re-stating the
rationale?

Thanks,
Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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[Wikimedia-l] Moderation (was Wikiconference USA in the media)

[Richard Ames]

I have set the moderation bit on Russavia's address for a limited time. 
 I've asked Russavia to focus on issues only; in the spirit of 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility


Regards, Richard.


On 14/06/14 05:21, Russavia wrote:

Ira,

Don't lecture me about what is and isn't acceptable.

Sure, you're a member of WMNYC and you are, of course, really butthurt







On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 4:39 AM, Russavia 
wrote:



There is the option of contacting her directly, or the chief editor of
the magazine, for further comment/clarification. Or the Wikipedia way
-- create a totally neutral on-project biography. ;)

Cheers,

Russavia


--
The greatest collection of shared knowledge in history. Help Wikipedia, 
participate now: http://wikimedia.org/


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