Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Diego Moya]

On 17 September 2014 12:46, Amir E. Aharoni
 wrote:
> Nitpick: If watchlist and notifications remain separated, it makes more
> sense to me to call the operation that adds something to watchlist "watch"
> rather than ''subscribe".

Good catch, that makes sense for me too.

That would make "subscribe" a high level concept, easier to explain to
newcomers, that is composed of both "watched threads" and
"notifications" that expert editors could handle in more fine-grained
detail.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Nitpick: If watchlist and notifications remain separated, it makes more
sense to me to call the operation that adds something to watchlist "watch"
rather than ''subscribe".
בתאריך 17 בספט 2014 12:05, "Diego Moya"  כתב:

> On 16 September 2014 21:32, Danny Horn  wrote:
> > Diego, that is definitely what we're thinking about for the subscriptions
> > options -- giving users the ability to choose whether they want to
> > subscribe to every new thread, or just get a notification that a new
> thread
> > has been created.
>
> Danny, that is definitely *not* what I'm thinking about, :-(  and
> there are nuances that are not getting through the conversation noise
> - or at least I've been so far unable to explain myself as to what
> those nuances are.
>
> Can you at least acknowledge that you understand the difference
> between "subscription" (with respect to items appearing at the
> Watchlist) and "notifications" (with respect to Echo)? I haven't seen
> that difference tackled in any of the communications from the
> development team, although several editors have recognized it as
> significant.
>
>
> >The balance that we have to figure out is how to provide
> > options on that page-by-page level without forcing people to go through
> two
> > clicks every time.
>
> I'd go with the route of allowing users to select the default value
> for both subscriptions and notifications (with new users subscribed
> and notified of all conversations they post to, and experienced
> editors with lots of pages changing the default to "don't subscribe").
> The current subscription check can be set up that way (in
> Preferences->Watchlist->Advanced options), and it works very well.
>
> If those options were available, I would configure mine to "subscribe
> to all topics" and "don't notify me about any topic" as the default.
>
>
>
> > We'll probably be tackling the subscription/notifications question in
> more
> > detail in a few weeks. Right now, we're working on Hide, the Table of
> > Contents, Search and the LiquidThreads transition. There's a lot to do!
> But
> > we'll definitely be getting back to notification options before too long.
> >
>
> That's great, there's a time for tackling each problem in a long term
> project. When the time comes, I hope you gather a sample of desired
> workflows and needs (including mine), *before* you start analyzing
> possible designs that solve them. ;-)
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Diego Moya]

On 16 September 2014 21:32, Danny Horn  wrote:
> Diego, that is definitely what we're thinking about for the subscriptions
> options -- giving users the ability to choose whether they want to
> subscribe to every new thread, or just get a notification that a new thread
> has been created.

Danny, that is definitely *not* what I'm thinking about, :-(  and
there are nuances that are not getting through the conversation noise
- or at least I've been so far unable to explain myself as to what
those nuances are.

Can you at least acknowledge that you understand the difference
between "subscription" (with respect to items appearing at the
Watchlist) and "notifications" (with respect to Echo)? I haven't seen
that difference tackled in any of the communications from the
development team, although several editors have recognized it as
significant.


>The balance that we have to figure out is how to provide
> options on that page-by-page level without forcing people to go through two
> clicks every time.

I'd go with the route of allowing users to select the default value
for both subscriptions and notifications (with new users subscribed
and notified of all conversations they post to, and experienced
editors with lots of pages changing the default to "don't subscribe").
The current subscription check can be set up that way (in
Preferences->Watchlist->Advanced options), and it works very well.

If those options were available, I would configure mine to "subscribe
to all topics" and "don't notify me about any topic" as the default.



> We'll probably be tackling the subscription/notifications question in more
> detail in a few weeks. Right now, we're working on Hide, the Table of
> Contents, Search and the LiquidThreads transition. There's a lot to do! But
> we'll definitely be getting back to notification options before too long.
>

That's great, there's a time for tackling each problem in a long term
project. When the time comes, I hope you gather a sample of desired
workflows and needs (including mine), *before* you start analyzing
possible designs that solve them. ;-)

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Danny Horn]

Diego, that is definitely what we're thinking about for the subscriptions
options -- giving users the ability to choose whether they want to
subscribe to every new thread, or just get a notification that a new thread
has been created. The balance that we have to figure out is how to provide
options on that page-by-page level without forcing people to go through two
clicks every time.

Right now, the list of items on the roadmap is on the Mediawiki Flow page.
[1] We're not enforcing a strict centralized place for discussions right
now; they're happening in a few different places. I'm going to be talking
with the Community team later this week to see what we can do about that. I
think the EE mailing list [2] is probably the best place to see what's
current and talk with the team.

We'll probably be tackling the subscription/notifications question in more
detail in a few weeks. Right now, we're working on Hide, the Table of
Contents, Search and the LiquidThreads transition. There's a lot to do! But
we'll definitely be getting back to notification options before too long.

Danny

[1]: Mediawiki Flow page: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Flow#Roadmap
[2]: EE mailing list: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Diego Moya  wrote:

> On 15 September 2014 19:24, Danny Horn  wrote:
> > Some people are seeing Flow messages as really important, something that
> > they want to get updates on right away -- and "right away" can mean
> either
> > in their watchlist where they go all the time, or in Echo where they'll
> see
> > the notification. Other people see Flow messages as something they'll get
> > to later, and they want to see more of a message inbox.
>
> And then you have people like me who see them as *both*, just not for
> the same pages. I've suggested that some topics and boards should
> raise notifications and not others, depending on how important each
> topic is for the user.
>
> At least one other editor suggested that this could be done with a
> check ("notify me of updates for this board") to be selected on the
> pop-up that appears when you add a topic to your watchlist. Is there
> someone taking note of all these scattered suggestions in a central
> place where they can be discussed?
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Martijn Hoekstra]

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Danny Horn  wrote:

> Figuring out how Flow integrates with the watchlist and Echo is one of the
> toughest and most important parts of the project.


I think that may be an overstatement. I'm not saying it isn't tough, but
exploring in what ways wikipages are currently used as a vehicle for
organizing discussions across different projects and different wikis (and
possibly third parties), and supporting all those different use-cases seems
far tougher than how to interact with watchlists and notifications.

-- Martijn
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Diego Moya]

On 15 September 2014 19:24, Danny Horn  wrote:
> Some people are seeing Flow messages as really important, something that
> they want to get updates on right away -- and "right away" can mean either
> in their watchlist where they go all the time, or in Echo where they'll see
> the notification. Other people see Flow messages as something they'll get
> to later, and they want to see more of a message inbox.

And then you have people like me who see them as *both*, just not for
the same pages. I've suggested that some topics and boards should
raise notifications and not others, depending on how important each
topic is for the user.

At least one other editor suggested that this could be done with a
check ("notify me of updates for this board") to be selected on the
pop-up that appears when you add a topic to your watchlist. Is there
someone taking note of all these scattered suggestions in a central
place where they can be discussed?

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Danny Horn]

Figuring out how Flow integrates with the watchlist and Echo is one of the
toughest and most important parts of the project. The feedback that the
team got from the last couple releases was actually pretty diverse, and
showed us that there's going to be a lot of work ahead of us to figure out
how to represent Flow activity.

Some people are seeing Flow messages as really important, something that
they want to get updates on right away -- and "right away" can mean either
in their watchlist where they go all the time, or in Echo where they'll see
the notification. Other people see Flow messages as something they'll get
to later, and they want to see more of a message inbox.

The interesting thing for me is that this doesn't seem to break down along
"new user" vs "power user" lines. People with the same level of experience
and activity can still use and think about those tools differently.

The work that we've done on the Flow/Echo/watchlist integration so far is
just a couple steps into what is going to be a longer process. We need to
build more options into the feature to help people choose what kind of
notifications they want to see, and where.

Danny



On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Diego Moya  wrote:

> On 15 September 2014 15:24, Amir E. Aharoni
>  wrote:
> > That is quite true. A deep modernization of the Watchlist should be
> coupled
> > with the Flow poject somehow. Either Special:Watchlist itself should be
> > profoundly redesigned and upgraded, or the Flow+Echo notifications should
> > become so good that they can replace it.
> >
>
> Whatever you do, please don't try to replace the Watchlist with Echo
> notifications; they serve quite different roles and are complementary,
> not a surrogate.
>
> The recent backlash that Echo received when it was updated last week
> was in part because of that, as it included as notifications all the
> updates that would normally be seek out at the watchlist and therefore
> shouldn't generate an alert.
>
> I agree that the Watchlist could be enhanced with more granular
> filters, groupings and search functions. A lot of user workflows are
> based on personal usages of the watchlist, which work as the de-facto
> coordination tool between editors participating in the same projects.
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Diego Moya]

On 15 September 2014 15:24, Amir E. Aharoni
 wrote:
> That is quite true. A deep modernization of the Watchlist should be coupled
> with the Flow poject somehow. Either Special:Watchlist itself should be
> profoundly redesigned and upgraded, or the Flow+Echo notifications should
> become so good that they can replace it.
>

Whatever you do, please don't try to replace the Watchlist with Echo
notifications; they serve quite different roles and are complementary,
not a surrogate.

The recent backlash that Echo received when it was updated last week
was in part because of that, as it included as notifications all the
updates that would normally be seek out at the watchlist and therefore
shouldn't generate an alert.

I agree that the Watchlist could be enhanced with more granular
filters, groupings and search functions. A lot of user workflows are
based on personal usages of the watchlist, which work as the de-facto
coordination tool between editors participating in the same projects.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Amir E. Aharoni]

2014-09-15 16:18 GMT+03:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) :
> I expect half of what would come up to be problems with Watchlist and
> RecentChanges, applying to any namespace and only made worse by the
> repeated attempt to take stuff out of them. Those are THE central
> engines of any wiki and I've only seen cosmetic actions around them,

That is quite true. A deep modernization of the Watchlist should be coupled
with the Flow poject somehow. Either Special:Watchlist itself should be
profoundly redesigned and upgraded, or the Flow+Echo notifications should
become so good that they can replace it.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Amir E. Aharoni]

> > The alternative would be to set watchlist to show all changes and
> > not just the last one, but then it would show one row per change or a
group
> > of rows per page, and that would make it even more cluttered.
> That never looked cluttered to me. :)

It did to me, and AFAIK, you and I started editing Wikimedia roughly at the
same time (give or a take a year or two). A matter of taste, I guess.

When I show the Watchlist to new people, they interpret it in wildly
different ways, all of which are incorrect.

> Subpagination does help with this because you can filter new page
creations.
> All the problems you mentioned I consider solved since about 2006 on
> it.wiki, modernise your practices.

Sorry, but I wouldn't call subpagination and namespace selection
"modernised".

To begin with, to be able to use these things, one needs to learn what
namespaces and subpages are; how many websites do you know that people need
to *learn* how to use? I certainly don't want Wikipedia to be such a
website. I want people to come here to write articles; this includes being
able to participate in discussions about articles, and this shouldn't
include the need to learn about namespaces and subpages.

Also, why do I need to modernize my practices *separately* from other
projects? I can understand that articles need to be written in each
language (and I'm developing software to make that easier), I understand
that the human side of community practices needs to develop on each project
separately?

Most projects in most languages - that's many hundreds of projects - don't
have admins and techies that can manually customize templates, namespaces,
bots, RSS, and so on. It doesn't scale.

Flow basically productizes[1] these practices, makes them common, and
removes the need to *learn* stuff. No, it's not ready yet, but the
direction is right.

[1] I'll keep repeating that I hate the word "productize", but I love the
idea behind it.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Marc A. Pelletier, 15/09/2014 15:07:
> On 09/15/2014 09:03 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
>> > All the problems you mentioned I consider solved since about 2006 on
>> > it.wiki, modernise your practices.
> ... isn't that what Flow is trying to do?

By making me and Amir talk of how to use wiki pages, you mean? ;-)
Maybe; I've not seen much of that and it would be very useful if editors
started collecting user stories likes his and exchanging practices on
how to manage them.

I expect half of what would come up to be problems with Watchlist and
RecentChanges, applying to any namespace and only made worse by the
repeated attempt to take stuff out of them. Those are THE central
engines of any wiki and I've only seen cosmetic actions around them,
except the work of a handful volunteer heros like Hoo and MatmaRex (and
sometimes the Wikidata team).

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Marc A. Pelletier]

On 09/15/2014 09:03 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
> All the problems you mentioned I consider solved since about 2006 on
> it.wiki, modernise your practices.

... isn't that what Flow is trying to do?

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Amir E. Aharoni, 15/09/2014 14:25:
> Seeing notifications about articles in the same watchlist with these
> notifications is already an issue.

There's a namespace selector. I select ns0 + talk when I'm in editing
mode and invert that when I'm not.

> 
> Seeing only the last "support" or "oppose" notification, and having to go
> to the page to see the current state of affairs (yes, I know it's not a
> vote). 

You can load the last revision of the page via RSS/Atom, if that's what
you want.

> The alternative would be to set watchlist to show all changes and
> not just the last one, but then it would show one row per change or a group
> of rows per page, and that would make it even more cluttered.

That never looked cluttered to me. :)

> 
> Seeing the adding of new pages, archival of old discussions and discussions
> of pages in the same way. Archival I don't want to see at all. 

Use a bot, ask them to mark edits minor?

> The action
> of adding a page and making a comment about a page should look different,
> but in the current watchlist they are the same.

Subpagination does help with this because you can filter new page creations.
All the problems you mentioned I consider solved since about 2006 on
it.wiki, modernise your practices. ;)

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Amir E. Aharoni]

2014-09-15 15:13 GMT+03:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) :
> > Amir E. Aharoni, 15/09/2014 13:12:
> > The English Wikipedia uses it for Articles for Deletion (AfD) and for a
lot
> > of other things. I tried to follow AfD for some time, and I had similar
> > issues.
> Issues which you still haven't described.

Seeing notifications about articles in the same watchlist with these
notifications is already an issue.

Seeing only the last "support" or "oppose" notification, and having to go
to the page to see the current state of affairs (yes, I know it's not a
vote). The alternative would be to set watchlist to show all changes and
not just the last one, but then it would show one row per change or a group
of rows per page, and that would make it even more cluttered.

Seeing the adding of new pages, archival of old discussions and discussions
of pages in the same way. Archival I don't want to see at all. The action
of adding a page and making a comment about a page should look different,
but in the current watchlist they are the same. Subpagination doesn't
really help with that.

These are issues that are familiar to all of us. We are accustomed to them,
but it doesn't mean that the condition is good.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Amir E. Aharoni, 15/09/2014 13:12:
> The English Wikipedia uses it for Articles for Deletion (AfD) and for a lot
> of other things. I tried to follow AfD for some time, and I had similar
> issues.

Issues which you still haven't described.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Amir E. Aharoni]

> If the reason is so trivial (on it.wiki it's certainly more complex than
> that), sounds like something that subpagination and/or RSS feeds can
> solve

I expected supagination to come up.

The English Wikipedia uses it for Articles for Deletion (AfD) and for a lot
of other things. I tried to follow AfD for some time, and I had similar
issues.

Subpagination is hack upon a hack. There's nothing wrong about simply
admitting that treating everything as a generic wiki page and building upon
that has its limits.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
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I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Amir E. Aharoni, 15/09/2014 11:12:
> These opinions are relevant, but the way
> they are presented in the watchlist is unhelpful and I feel that it wastes
> my time.

If the reason is so trivial (on it.wiki it's certainly more complex than
that), sounds like something that subpagination and/or RSS feeds can
solve. Can you describe exactly what you'd like to follow and how your
time is currently wasted?

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Risker]

English Wikipedia rarely has more than 10-15 people participating in
featured content candidate discussions/reviews.  I'm hugely impressed that
Hebrew Wikipedia has this level of participation in similar discussions.  I
suspect this is a higher level of participation than is seen on most
projects, and wonder why editors at your project think that the current
level of participation is too low.  I also don't understand why you find
your watchlist flooded using the current discussion process, but this may
be a difference in preferences or in the setup of your specific project.

Risker/Anne

On 15 September 2014 05:12, Amir E. Aharoni 
wrote:

> My 2 agorot in the Flow or not Flow discussion:
>
> A prominent Hebrew Wikipedia user started a discussion about his impression
> that too few people participate in the discussions about nominating
> featured articles.[1] This Wikipedia has about 700 active and 150 very
> active editors[2]; the number of participants in these discussions is
> usually much less than twenty, often less than ten.
>
> Now I don't know what are other people's reasons not to participate in
> them; maybe a lot of them are just not interested in discussing featured
> articles.
>
> I know what my reasons are, though. I am quite interested in such
> discussions, and I would participate in them, but I don't, because in the
> few times I tried, it filled my watchlist with unnecessary notifications
> about other people's opinions. These opinions are relevant, but the way
> they are presented in the watchlist is unhelpful and I feel that it wastes
> my time.
>
> More structure in such discussions would encourage me to participate.
>
> The current version of Flow doesn't solve this problem: Its notifications
> are far from being well-adapted even for simple talk pages, and it doesn't
> even attempt to be adapted to a more structured decision-making discussion
> like Featured Article nomination. But I do believe that Flow is in the
> direction of resolving these problems. Flow will have to be carefully
> tweaked for each discussion scenario, but the general idea of having
> adaptable structured discussion is a good start.
>
> The frequent argument for remaining with the current talk pages and not
> moving to Flow is that the current talk pages work. Well, at least in this
> case they don't, and Flow could be a solution to that.
>
> [1] Roughly corresponding to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TFAR
> [2] http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaHE.htm
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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[Wikimedia-l] To Flow: on featured article discussions

[Amir E. Aharoni]

My 2 agorot in the Flow or not Flow discussion:

A prominent Hebrew Wikipedia user started a discussion about his impression
that too few people participate in the discussions about nominating
featured articles.[1] This Wikipedia has about 700 active and 150 very
active editors[2]; the number of participants in these discussions is
usually much less than twenty, often less than ten.

Now I don't know what are other people's reasons not to participate in
them; maybe a lot of them are just not interested in discussing featured
articles.

I know what my reasons are, though. I am quite interested in such
discussions, and I would participate in them, but I don't, because in the
few times I tried, it filled my watchlist with unnecessary notifications
about other people's opinions. These opinions are relevant, but the way
they are presented in the watchlist is unhelpful and I feel that it wastes
my time.

More structure in such discussions would encourage me to participate.

The current version of Flow doesn't solve this problem: Its notifications
are far from being well-adapted even for simple talk pages, and it doesn't
even attempt to be adapted to a more structured decision-making discussion
like Featured Article nomination. But I do believe that Flow is in the
direction of resolving these problems. Flow will have to be carefully
tweaked for each discussion scenario, but the general idea of having
adaptable structured discussion is a good start.

The frequent argument for remaining with the current talk pages and not
moving to Flow is that the current talk pages work. Well, at least in this
case they don't, and Flow could be a solution to that.

[1] Roughly corresponding to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TFAR
[2] http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaHE.htm

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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