Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-07 Thread Peter Southwood
Yes, the signal tends to be lost in the noise. Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: Kevin Wayne Williams kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-07 Thread The Cunctator
Yes, it should be made clear that opt out will always be an acceptable user preference. On Aug 6, 2013 7:26 AM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:35 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Todd Allen wrote: [comments about VisualEditor] Hi Todd. Thank

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-07 Thread The Cunctator
-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 9:02 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out I've made no claim about most long-term editors, but any perusal of the two RFCs and the Feedback page would demonstrate that there's a fairly large group. Or are you

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-07 Thread Peter Southwood
-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 9:02 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out I've made no claim about most long-term editors, but any perusal of the two RFCs and the Feedback page would demonstrate that there's

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread MZMcBride
Kevin Wayne Williams wrote: Op 2013/08/05 19:35, MZMcBride schreef: Finally, and somewhat related to the complaints page, I've been thinking lately about the British and the Irish and the nature of insurgencies. I believe the VisualEditor team is now viewed by many on the English Wikipedia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread David Gerard
On 6 August 2013 07:44, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: That said, this doubt is tempered by the _enormous_ selection bias we see in the on-wiki discussion. Namely that (a) the discussion has only been advertised to logged-in users, and (b) that nearly everyone participating in the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread MZMcBride
David Gerard wrote: That is, the arguments tend towards saying you can't philosophically prove there aren't supporters! This is unconvincing for a number of reasons. This is lazy, but I'm going to quote myself. --- VisualEditor is a big project that didn't simply happen in a vacuum. The

[Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Andrew Gray
I very rarely want to follow up a post to say yes, this, but I think Max has hit the nail on the head here. One other issue around 'heavy-handed' is that this is in part perception. I didn't feel the deployment heavy-handed, but then it did not cause me more than minor technical annoyance, I had

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Richard Farmbrough
Apparently important. I am aware, as probably everyone is, that this is the first most obvious step to make article editing more accessible, and address certain inclusiveness goals. I am also aware that there is no data to support the theory that a visual editor means more inclusive editing,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Todd Allen
On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:35 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Todd Allen wrote: [comments about VisualEditor] Hi Todd. Thank you for writing this e-mail. Unfortunately I don't have a particularly unified reply to write here, but I can offer five thoughts. Regarding the specific

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Richard Farmbrough rich...@farmbrough.co.uk wrote: Apparently important. I am aware, as probably everyone is, that this is the first most obvious step to make article editing more accessible, and address certain inclusiveness goals. I am also aware that there

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Kevin Wayne Williams
Op 2013/08/05 23:44, MZMcBride schreef: This leaves us to consider the biggest question: opt-in vs. opt-out. Erik and James are both quite smart, they are true Wikimedians, and they make reasonable points about choosing opt-out over opt-in. This is the point on which we fundamentally disagree.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Kevin Wayne Williams kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com wrote: Op 2013/08/05 23:44, MZMcBride schreef: This leaves us to consider the biggest question: opt-in vs. opt-out. Erik and James are both quite smart, they are true Wikimedians, and they make reasonable points

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Kevin Wayne Williams
Op 2013/08/06 7:55, Martijn Hoekstra schreef: On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Kevin Wayne Williams kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com wrote: Their argument for 'opt-out' is based solely upon the quality and quantity of testing that it affords to VE. VE is not a mission-critical feature: while we

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 5:06 PM, Kevin Wayne Williams kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com wrote: Op 2013/08/06 7:55, Martijn Hoekstra schreef: On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Kevin Wayne Williams kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com wrote: Their argument for 'opt-out' is based solely upon the quality and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Peter Southwood
Do you have data to back up your claims? Peter - Original Message - From: Kevin Wayne Williams kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out Op

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Kevin Wayne Williams
@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out Op 2013/08/05 23:44, MZMcBride schreef: This leaves us to consider the biggest question: opt-in vs. opt-out. Erik and James are both quite smart, they are true Wikimedians

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Kevin Wayne Williams
Message - From: Kevin Wayne Williams kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out Op 2013/08/06 9:07, Peter Southwood schreef: Do you have data to back up

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Peter Southwood
, Peter - Original Message - From: Kevin Wayne Williams kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 9:02 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out I've made no claim about most long-term editors

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-06 Thread Kevin Wayne Williams
Op 2013/08/06 13:05, Peter Southwood schreef: This is Wikipedia, there are always a small number who make a lot of noise. I think that's part of the problem: any change hits a nerve *somewhere*, so even when it's a real problem, observers are likely to dismiss it as being just more of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-05 Thread Nathan
On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 7:07 PM, Todd Allen toddmal...@gmail.com wrote: I realize this was brought up a couple of weeks ago and I apologize for the late response on this, but it was just recently brought to my attention that the VE opt-out was intended to be only temporary. Firstly: Currently,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-05 Thread MZMcBride
Todd Allen wrote: [comments about VisualEditor] Hi Todd. Thank you for writing this e-mail. Unfortunately I don't have a particularly unified reply to write here, but I can offer five thoughts. Regarding the specific issue you mention (the labeling of the user preference), I think there should

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-05 Thread Kevin Wayne Williams
Op 2013/08/05 19:35, MZMcBride schreef: Finally, and somewhat related to the complaints page, I've been thinking lately about the British and the Irish and the nature of insurgencies. I believe the VisualEditor team is now viewed by many on the English Wikipedia (and other wikis) as an

[Wikimedia-l] Visual Editor temporary opt-out

2013-08-04 Thread Todd Allen
I realize this was brought up a couple of weeks ago and I apologize for the late response on this, but it was just recently brought to my attention that the VE opt-out was intended to be only temporary. Firstly: Currently, as per the overwhelming consensus on en.wikipedia at least, VE needs to be