Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

n-Philippe Béland Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we consider sources of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

edia-l <wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org> On Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland Sent: 11 May 2018 14:51 To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems When we say we want to keep our current requiremen

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

maine Wiki <romaine.w...@gmail.com> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Mon, 14 May 2018 23:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems Was it the first time I noticed this subject in the Wikimedia movement, no. It

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Was it the first time I noticed this subject in the Wikimedia movement, no. It happens too many times that people get frustrated because the gender, color of their skin or native background is the key reason to ask someone, instead of the qualities that this person has. There are two main reasons

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

stinguish them from other primary > sources > > produced by the subject? > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Sat, 12 May 2018 08:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems It's reliable concerning the opinions and vision of the author on the things he describes, not the facts themselves. And unless I'm misunderstanding this, fact checkers (critics?) are actually secon

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

- Original Message - From: Paulo Santos Perneta <paulospern...@gmail.com> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Sat, 12 May 2018 08:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems Yes, it should be as you say. But my experience

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

imedia.org> > Sent: Sat, 12 May 2018 08:44:07 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > There is a difference between the two situations. The king's deed and the > parish books are primary sources, but both are official documents, subject

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

ional academic analysis is > vital, think cold fusion. > > Fred > > - Original Message - > From: Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Sent: Sat, 12 May 2018 08:31:14 -0400 (EDT) > Subject:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

:44:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems There is a difference between the two situations. The king's deed and the parish books are primary sources, but both are official documents, subject to peer review. Diaries and autobiographies are primary sou

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Sat, 12 May 2018 08:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems If a "secondary" source just parrots or copies a primary source, it's added

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

> > > personal thought on this issue is keeping our current verifiability and > > > notability requirements is a good idea. In some areas I think we > include > > > far too much (fan cruft anyone?). > > > > > > - Cameron C. > > > Cameron11598 > > &

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

uish them from other primary > > sources > > > produced by the subject? > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > > Behalf O

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Message - From: Paulo Santos Perneta <paulospern...@gmail.com> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Sat, 12 May 2018 08:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems A parish book, with all records signed by the priest (a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

gt; > > produced by the subject? > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > > Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

a-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 10:25 PM > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > Isn't there an endemic confusion in the Wikipe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

, > Peter > > -Original Message- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 10:25 PM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing probl

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

kimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Sat, 12 May 2018 01:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems Maybe there is, but maybe they are in fact conceptually similar, and have similar problems. You will have to clarify: In what way are primary sources "as in histo

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

duced by the subject? Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 10:25 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems Is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

ments is a good idea. In some areas I think we > > include > > > > far too much (fan cruft anyone?). > > > > > > > > - Cameron C. > > > > Cameron11598 > > > > > > > > On Thu, 10 May 2018 21:34:15 -0700 peter.southw...

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

.southw...@telkomsa.net > > > wrote ---- > > > > > > If not written, how would they be referenced and verified? > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

r > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gender

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

alf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing > sources but rather changing our narrow point

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

e- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > You are missing the whole point. I'm n

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

> > > > - Original Message - > > From: Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT) > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach caus

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

itten by an acknowledged expert or are peer reviewed, we may > consider > > > > them reliable sources. I don’t think this is what this discussion is > > > about. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > -Original Mes

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

t; > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly, > Wikipedia can at best only echo

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

the new project became recognised as a reliable >> source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without destroying the >> credibility we have. >> Cheers, >> Peter >> >> -----Original Message- >> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.w

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

:28 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we consider sources of knowledge. A lot of cultures are of oral

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

written by an acknowledged expert or are peer reviewed, we may consider > > > them reliable sources. I don’t think this is what this discussion is > > about. > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -----Original Message- > > > From: Wikimed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

> > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of FRED BAUDER > > Sent: 11 May 2018 07:19 > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Ge

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List' <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Sent: Fri, 11 May 2018 00:34:15 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > If not written, how would they be referenced and verified? > Cheers, > Peter > > -Origin

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of FRED BAUDER Sent: 11 May 2018 07:19 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems People write books and journal articles which incorporate oral traditions. The Bible is one example. That doesn't mean we

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

ers, > > Peter > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gende

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

kimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Fri, 11 May 2018 04:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > If not written, how would they be referenced and verified? Could they possibly be registered in an oral form? Could we invent a way of integrating o

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

> > -Original Message- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf > Of Jean-Philippe Béland > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > You are

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we consider sources of knowledge. A lot of cultures are of oral tradition and not written. JP On

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

so many people wanting > > to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times change. > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

or purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times change. > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:3

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

> Cheers, > > Peter > > > > -Original Message----- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

ginal Message - > From: Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 16:41:49 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > Abandoning notability

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

gt; -Original Message----- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach caus

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Lucille B. Buchanan might make an article: http://www.blackpast.org/aaw/jones-lucy-lucile-berkeley-buchanan-1884-1989 Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

stories, and not even a chief. Fred - Original Message - From: Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 16:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems Abandonin

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

iginal Message- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > If we where that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have started Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by anyone without any authority to double check before

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

; Peter > > -Original Message- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > Behalf Of Gnangarra > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > notability and verifi

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems notability and verifiability are important, every culture and language has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge. These culture manage successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the western styles were developed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

t; From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01 > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > "Noth

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

15:01 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > "Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge." > > But it is what we accept as par

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

om: Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly, >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

t; From: Amir E. Aharoni <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > > Sent: Mon, 07 May 2018 04:52:31 -0400 (EDT) > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > 2018-05-07 9

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

The whole framing of this question is misguided. There are lots of people whose work is undervalued on Wikipedia for a lot of reasons. If there is an effort to reach out to a particular group of volunteers that is underrepresented then that should be celebrated as a positive contribution to our

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Hi, I usually push diversity in any situation but only after I got a core quality group of volunteer. the first degree of diversity is the diversity based on wiki activity, IMHO.. I care about the rest and I try to be honest if I go in that direction and why I do that. If anyone is offended for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

On 7 May 2018 at 05:10, Romaine Wiki wrote: > I recently received an e-mail > from a user in the Wikimedia movement who has (temporarily?) stopped > contributing as she is not happy with a specific aspect of the atmosphere > in Wikimedia. > She was invited to participate

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

g that adds gender-specific value, increasing our coverage of > the > > subject. So a workshop at a nursing convention might be valuable. > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: Amir E. Aharoni <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

f the > subject. So a workshop at a nursing convention might be valuable. > > > > Fred > > > > - Original Message - > > From: Amir E. Aharoni <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

uable. > > Fred > > - Original Message - > From: Amir E. Aharoni <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Sent: Mon, 07 May 2018 04:52:31 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

har...@mail.huji.ac.il> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Mon, 07 May 2018 04:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems 2018-05-07 9:55 GMT+03:00 Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com>: > Amir, > It's funny - after reading y

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

2018-05-07 9:55 GMT+03:00 Jane Darnell : > Amir, > It's funny - after reading your mail I wondered if I had read Romaine's > mail correctly. You had probably read it correctly. Generally, I'm wondering whether direct invitations to women or people of color (or women of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Women and other unrepresented people are invited to edit, to become skilled in editing (lots of practice and experience needed), and get well-deserved credit for excellence, but it is a process. Everyone stumbles at first, the point is not run anyone off or blame the difficulties associated

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

Amir, It's funny - after reading your mail I wondered if I had read Romaine's mail correctly. Rereading both it seems that is exactly what you were trying to say - we all carry our own little bundle of biases with us whereever we go and whatever we read. When I read Romaine's mail I stopped cold

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

] Gendergap approach causing problems This is a sensitive topic, and I'm a white man myself, so please slap me if I say something dumb. 2018-05-07 7:10 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.w...@gmail.com>: > > What has happened? > > She was invited to participate in a Wikimedia acti

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

This is a sensitive topic, and I'm a white man myself, so please slap me if I say something dumb. 2018-05-07 7:10 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki : > > What has happened? > > She was invited to participate in a Wikimedia activity, because: > 1. she is a woman > 2. she is from a