Re: [Wikimediach-l] Questions about the "New Web site" project
On 13.03.2011 16:36, Ilario Valdelli wrote: > On 13.03.2011 15:50, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: > If someone doesn't remember, we are discussing to make a restyling of > the web site already two years ago (http://www.wikimedia.ch/Refonte_du_site) > > This email has had no answer (also from the CIO). The board has waited > an answer for more than one year. This page is in French. I have criticised that several times, without being heard. Apart from that one mail and the creation of that page nothing happened on board-level. /Manuel -- Regards Manuel Schneider Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Questions about the "New Web site" project
On 13.03.2011 15:50, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: Before any discuss I would invite you to read old emails and in particular one of the President sent at least two years ago which invited people of the community to participate in the creation of the new website. If someone doesn't remember, we are discussing to make a restyling of the web site already two years ago (http://www.wikimedia.ch/Refonte_du_site) This email has had no answer (also from the CIO). The board has waited an answer for more than one year. After no reply and not interest, the board has received some offers in the last months and taken this opportunity to go ahead. I don't understand why all concerns comes up when a decision has been taken and not before. And I am a little bit worried to read that the community has not been consulted when all is published in a public page. It seems to me too late. > So you want to create an additional web site to http://www.wikimedia.ch > ? What will happen with www.wikimedia.ch ? > It will return to be members.wikimedia.ch as it was in the past. > So, create a general visual identity YES or NO ? It can be a start to create visual guidelines. But, it's not mandatory. Please take care that there is not a big creative work to do as we must follow the visual guidelines of WMF. > OK, I understand the focus is on the communication... but you must have > a tech. solution, and this tech. solution will never be agnostic. So do > we speak in this project about CMS/hosting/maintenance YES or NO ? The single tech solution is the CMS. There is an offer for hosting but it's under discussion. > In http://www.wikimedia.ch/Website_2011 I don't see anything in the > proposition table about re-thinking the information presentation... but > I see a lot about technical stuff. Do you mean this? http://www.wikimedia.ch/Site_web Where you see technical requirements? > OK, if everything is already decided, I won't invest more time to try to > understand and improve the situation ; but I want to be clear about the > following points: > > (1) The whole project and decision process is not transparent for the > members. This is simply not acceptable for me as association member. > WMCH projects must be as far as possible transparent and during the > whole process, members should have a chance to be on board. For that you > need to take a little bit time... not only 2-3 weeks. You have had two years. Check old emails. > (2) The whole project purpose and preparation work is extremely fuzzy. > As far as I can judge what we really need are visual guidelines and a > better presentation of our association/activities (so mainly a > redactional work). Such job is more the speciality of a communication > agency than a a web agency. Changing the hosting, the CMS, etc... won't > change anything in this way... but this is a typical job for a web agency. As I have said we are looking for a better presentation. The visual guidelines is another job and offered only by one web agency. > (3) Members, especially people working on such topic from the beginning > of the association can not simply be ignored, this is simply > respect-less. We do not have a lot of such people and they are experts > in their domain. If Manuel, as CIO, says to the board (and it seems I > say the same), sorry but your IT project seems not clear, please let us > brainstorm/explain/write a little bit more on it, you should take that > in consideration. If you think, this is only a communication job, not an > IT, so change the communication and do not touch the IT. You simply need > to decide what to display, and the CIO will work to implement it in our > current CMS. http://www.wikimedia.ch/index.php?title=Talk:Website_2011&action=edit&redlink=1 It seems to be void. > So, I think this is my last email about that... but IMO this is really a > bad point for the current CA that he allows such important investments > although 9what seems to me to be0 a wake project mgmt. > The project management as been weak to wait two years to take a decision. Any decision cannot have a big approve by the community. Someone agrees, some other disagrees. Ilario ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Questions about the "New Web site" project
On 03/12/2011 07:08 PM, Ilario Valdelli wrote: > On 12.03.2011 15:53, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: >> Hi, >> >> it seems that people are motivated by improving our Web site and also >> maybe more. See last email from Manuel. >> >> I have tried in the past hour to understand better what wanted to be >> improved? Why? in which way? by who? etc. >> >> I didn't really find answers to my questions, so I simply write them all >> here: >> * What is the scope: create visual guidelines, improve the Web site >> engine, improve the web site content (I ask because this page >> http://www.wikimedia.ch/Website_2011 speaks a lot about the visual >> guidelines and not really about the Web site)? >> * Who are the sponsors and the project leader(s)? >> * What is the timeline and the decision process? >> * What is exactly wrong with our current Web site (did not find something) ? >> * What are the business requirements (I have only find >> http://www.wikimedia.ch/Site_web#Goal but this is too fuzzy and I guess >> for this reason I feel our current solution is already matching them)? >> >> Having an answer to these questions is mandatory to have a chance to >> work on a successful IT project. >> >> Thank you for your help. >> >> Emmanuel >> > > It's not an official answer, it's not a definitive answer, it's my answer. Thank you Ilario to take time to answer me. I think an official one would be welcome (from the Project Manager or Mourad). The WMCH members should have a clear answer to these pretty basic questions. > In my opinion the idea to improve the communication of Wikimedia CH (and > we are considering the one-way communication, for example what we do, > what are our projects) it's not an IT project, it's a project connected > with the communication. > > I could say, for example, that it's more connected with press speakers > than with IT responsibles. The current web sites are good for > wikimedians or wikipedians but it's frequent the question received from > new members: "I am new member but I have not understood what you do and > how I could help you"!!! Ok, so I think until this point everybody could be agree. > This project would not implement web applications, would not change the > current web sites but it would create a new website to communicate our > mission and our projects to the external world. So you want to create an additional web site to http://www.wikimedia.ch ? What will happen with www.wikimedia.ch ? > We don't need to improve visual guidelines, we don't need to improve the > web site engine, but we need to communicate our mission in the *simplest > way*. WMCH has no visual guidelines. Wanting to communicate in an efficient way without such guidelines is a little bit like wanting to make the Paris-Dakar without wheels. So, this is important to be agree on that point... because on the wiki it's written [...]create a visual identity for Wikimedia CH.In the frame of this project, we are collecting suggestions regarding visual elements to include in this future identity which will not only be used in the web site, but as will on any communication's material (i.e. flyers, mailing list, official documents, exhibitions, ...) [..] So, create a general visual identity YES or NO ? > The aim of the project is the "communication" and it's not the > Information technology. OK, I understand the focus is on the communication... but you must have a tech. solution, and this tech. solution will never be agnostic. So do we speak in this project about CMS/hosting/maintenance YES or NO ? > The board has received some proposals from web agencies and have > selected the best proposal following some parameters (interest to the > project, professionalism, capacity to understand our ideas and to > communicate these ideas in a simplest way). > > In few words we would not create a new web design for our websites, but > we would transmit a message and we would communicate to the world and > without an *esoteric* language. Sorry, this does not match really what is written on the wiki, and to do that you need to create a new site web, but only to modify/reorganize the content on www.wikimedia.ch. You also do not need to change the whole stack (hosting, hw, sw). In http://www.wikimedia.ch/Website_2011 I don't see anything in the proposition table about re-thinking the information presentation... but I see a lot about technical stuff. > There is nothing that the IT/web team has done badly, but the IT/web > team is not a web/communication agency. Making a new site web more or less from scratch, and it seems this is what you want to do (otherwise explain me please the gap between the content in the wiki and your email) ; this is not only a communication topic. > The board has already decided the web agency, we need only to > communicate them our decision and to receive graphical proposals. OK, if everything is already decided, I won't invest more time to try to understand and improve the situation
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Questions about the "New Web site" project
I agree 100% to Ilario analyse, We are talking about a communication tools. It will be also used to approach new sponsors, in the perspective of being less dependent of the fundraising, and for that we need this tools. Charles 2011/3/12 Ilario Valdelli > ClamAV 0.96.1 > X-Mail-Counter: mail statistics and filters by Manuel Schneider > X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6 > X-Message-To-The-World: Linux is good for you! > > On 12.03.2011 15:53, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: > > Hi, > > > > it seems that people are motivated by improving our Web site and also > > maybe more. See last email from Manuel. > > > > I have tried in the past hour to understand better what wanted to be > > improved? Why? in which way? by who? etc. > > > > I didn't really find answers to my questions, so I simply write them all > > here: > > * What is the scope: create visual guidelines, improve the Web site > > engine, improve the web site content (I ask because this page > > http://www.wikimedia.ch/Website_2011 speaks a lot about the visual > > guidelines and not really about the Web site)? > > * Who are the sponsors and the project leader(s)? > > * What is the timeline and the decision process? > > * What is exactly wrong with our current Web site (did not find > something) ? > > * What are the business requirements (I have only find > > http://www.wikimedia.ch/Site_web#Goal but this is too fuzzy and I guess > > for this reason I feel our current solution is already matching them)? > > > > Having an answer to these questions is mandatory to have a chance to > > work on a successful IT project. > > > > Thank you for your help. > > > > Emmanuel > > > > It's not an official answer, it's not a definitive answer, it's my answer. > > In my opinion the idea to improve the communication of Wikimedia CH (and > we are considering the one-way communication, for example what we do, > what are our projects) it's not an IT project, it's a project connected > with the communication. > > I could say, for example, that it's more connected with press speakers > than with IT responsibles. The current web sites are good for > wikimedians or wikipedians but it's frequent the question received from > new members: "I am new member but I have not understood what you do and > how I could help you"!!! > > This project would not implement web applications, would not change the > current web sites but it would create a new website to communicate our > mission and our projects to the external world. > > We don't need to improve visual guidelines, we don't need to improve the > web site engine, but we need to communicate our mission in the *simplest > way*. > > The aim of the project is the "communication" and it's not the > Information technology. > > The board has received some proposals from web agencies and have > selected the best proposal following some parameters (interest to the > project, professionalism, capacity to understand our ideas and to > communicate these ideas in a simplest way). > > In few words we would not create a new web design for our websites, but > we would transmit a message and we would communicate to the world and > without an *esoteric* language. > > Why we have chosen persons not connected with Wikimedia/Wikipedia? > Because we would transmit them our message and we would that they > process this message in the simplest way without any technicism and > without any strange definition. A Wikipedian/Wikimedian with experience > will use a technical language and this is not the best to communicate. > > There is nothing that the IT/web team has done badly, but the IT/web > team is not a web/communication agency. > > The board has already decided the web agency, we need only to > communicate them our decision and to receive graphical proposals. > > Ilario > > > ___ > http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website > Wikimediach-l mailing list > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l > > ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Questions about the "New Web site" project
On 12.03.2011 15:53, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: > Hi, > > it seems that people are motivated by improving our Web site and also > maybe more. See last email from Manuel. > > I have tried in the past hour to understand better what wanted to be > improved? Why? in which way? by who? etc. > > I didn't really find answers to my questions, so I simply write them all > here: > * What is the scope: create visual guidelines, improve the Web site > engine, improve the web site content (I ask because this page > http://www.wikimedia.ch/Website_2011 speaks a lot about the visual > guidelines and not really about the Web site)? > * Who are the sponsors and the project leader(s)? > * What is the timeline and the decision process? > * What is exactly wrong with our current Web site (did not find something) ? > * What are the business requirements (I have only find > http://www.wikimedia.ch/Site_web#Goal but this is too fuzzy and I guess > for this reason I feel our current solution is already matching them)? > > Having an answer to these questions is mandatory to have a chance to > work on a successful IT project. > > Thank you for your help. > > Emmanuel > It's not an official answer, it's not a definitive answer, it's my answer. In my opinion the idea to improve the communication of Wikimedia CH (and we are considering the one-way communication, for example what we do, what are our projects) it's not an IT project, it's a project connected with the communication. I could say, for example, that it's more connected with press speakers than with IT responsibles. The current web sites are good for wikimedians or wikipedians but it's frequent the question received from new members: "I am new member but I have not understood what you do and how I could help you"!!! This project would not implement web applications, would not change the current web sites but it would create a new website to communicate our mission and our projects to the external world. We don't need to improve visual guidelines, we don't need to improve the web site engine, but we need to communicate our mission in the *simplest way*. The aim of the project is the "communication" and it's not the Information technology. The board has received some proposals from web agencies and have selected the best proposal following some parameters (interest to the project, professionalism, capacity to understand our ideas and to communicate these ideas in a simplest way). In few words we would not create a new web design for our websites, but we would transmit a message and we would communicate to the world and without an *esoteric* language. Why we have chosen persons not connected with Wikimedia/Wikipedia? Because we would transmit them our message and we would that they process this message in the simplest way without any technicism and without any strange definition. A Wikipedian/Wikimedian with experience will use a technical language and this is not the best to communicate. There is nothing that the IT/web team has done badly, but the IT/web team is not a web/communication agency. The board has already decided the web agency, we need only to communicate them our decision and to receive graphical proposals. Ilario ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] Questions about the "New Web site" project
Hi Emmanuel, thanks for your questions. I think I can answer a few of them. On 12.03.2011 15:53, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: > * What is the scope: create visual guidelines, improve the Web site > engine, improve the web site content (I ask because this page > http://www.wikimedia.ch/Website_2011 speaks a lot about the visual > guidelines and not really about the Web site)? refering to the discussions we had on the board mailing list the graphical design is the major problem. I have asked that question as well. In 2008 the webteam has done extensive brainstorming and clustered all the ideas to a concept which has lead to the current website. We never took care of the graphical design though. The brainstorming that has taken place on http://www.wikimedia.ch/Site_web comes up more or less with exactly the same things and what we already have. Apart from the website Wikimedia CH does not have a corporate design. Logically we first develop a corporate design which works for everything and then make the website look accordingly. > * Who are the sponsors and the project leader(s)? > * What is the timeline and the decision process? This is all unclear to me. As CIO this falls into my responsibility but the "project" was imposed by the board, all I could do so far was commenting on discussion that happened on the board mailing list. I have asked to communicate to the webteam but this didn't happen so far. From that I can only assume that no project has been defined yet. The board my confirm or clarify. > * What is exactly wrong with our current Web site (did not find something) ? See my first answer. > * What are the business requirements (I have only find > http://www.wikimedia.ch/Site_web#Goal but this is too fuzzy and I guess > for this reason I feel our current solution is already matching them)? Well, as I said in the first answer, I have the same impression and the discussions on the board mailing list lead to the same conclusion. Except for the design. And that's a more general thing. But the website will be indeed the first thing to be adopted, also the presentation of the information needs to be made clearer and less cluttered (main page for instance). > Having an answer to these questions is mandatory to have a chance to > work on a successful IT project. Sure. That's why I started this discussion. /Manuel -- Regards Manuel Schneider Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
[Wikimediach-l] Questions about the "New Web site" project
Hi, it seems that people are motivated by improving our Web site and also maybe more. See last email from Manuel. I have tried in the past hour to understand better what wanted to be improved? Why? in which way? by who? etc. I didn't really find answers to my questions, so I simply write them all here: * What is the scope: create visual guidelines, improve the Web site engine, improve the web site content (I ask because this page http://www.wikimedia.ch/Website_2011 speaks a lot about the visual guidelines and not really about the Web site)? * Who are the sponsors and the project leader(s)? * What is the timeline and the decision process? * What is exactly wrong with our current Web site (did not find something) ? * What are the business requirements (I have only find http://www.wikimedia.ch/Site_web#Goal but this is too fuzzy and I guess for this reason I feel our current solution is already matching them)? Having an answer to these questions is mandatory to have a chance to work on a successful IT project. Thank you for your help. Emmanuel ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
