Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[BalaSundaraRaman]

Hi Shiju, 

Thanks for the analysis. We now know where we need to improve (i.e. develop 
older stubs). Thanks to Jyotis for pulling out the data. It'll be great if we 
could measure other quality indicators like number/percentage of articles with 
citations, average number of citations per article, etc. also.


- Sundar
 
"That language is an instrument of human reason, and not merely a medium for 
the expression of thought, is a truth generally admitted."
- George Boole, quoted in Iverson's Turing Award Lecture


>
> From: Ramesh N G 
>To: Wikimedia India Community list  
>Cc: Shiju Alex  
>Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 10:23 PM
>Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 
>2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report
> 
>
>There is a much better report is here [1]and here [2]by Shiju. 
>
>
>1. 
>http://shijualex.wordpress.com/2013/01/27/analysis-of-the-indic-language-statistical-report-2012/
>2. 
>http://shijualex.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/indic-language-wikipedias-statistical-report-2012-2/
>
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Arjuna Rao Chavala  
>wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>2013/1/23 Vickram Crishna 
>>
>>On Jan 23, 2013 11:58 AM, "Arjuna Rao Chavala"  wrote:
>>>Rather than just the views, we need to look at the value felt by the viewers 
>>>(may be by an annual survey) as a measure of the impact of Wikipedia's 
>>>mission.
>>>
>>--cut-- 
>>
>>That is a very challenging thought, Arjuna. Online surveys are potentially 
>>quite weak, as evidenced by the Facebook voting process (for policy changes, 
>>not the Facebook 'like' feature, whose purpose itself is full of questions).
>>>A possibility may be a continuous rating system, with radio buttons on each 
>>>page, visible to logged in users (?), or actionable only by logged in users, 
>>>rather than an optionable survey on some other page. I see difficulties with 
>>>this as well, mind you, but throw it out as a suggestion.
>>>On the plus side, adding such user-involving features may be a way to bring 
>>>in more 'mature' community involvement in knowledge creation and 
>>>dissemination. I am often struck by the manner in which some relatively 
>>>half-baked 'improvement' gets to be quite popular while worthwhile 
>>>technology lies unused. 'The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in 
>>>ourselves, that we are underlings', said the poet, but I hope we are part of 
>>>the solution, not content to remain the problem.
>>Article feedback tool currently in beta could be the impact metric that may 
>>be suitable for this purpose.
>> 
>>Somewhere in the future, I see some kind of 'sharing' as a possibility, 
>>whereby individuals who have common interests can actively and dynamically 
>>connect through wikipedia pages. That might throw up an interesting metric as 
>>well.
>>I understand that part of the plans for Wikipedia is  to make it more social.
>>
>>Cheers
>>Arjuna 
>>
>>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[Ramesh N G]

There is a much better report is here
[1]and
here
[2]by
Shiju.


1.
http://shijualex.wordpress.com/2013/01/27/analysis-of-the-indic-language-statistical-report-2012/
2.
http://shijualex.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/indic-language-wikipedias-statistical-report-2012-2/



On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Arjuna Rao Chavala wrote:

>
>
> 2013/1/23 Vickram Crishna 
>
>> On Jan 23, 2013 11:58 AM, "Arjuna Rao Chavala" 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Rather than just the views, we need to look at the value felt by the
>> viewers (may be by an annual survey) as a measure of the impact of
>> Wikipedia's mission.
>>
> --cut--
>
>>  That is a very challenging thought, Arjuna. Online surveys are
>> potentially quite weak, as evidenced by the Facebook voting process (for
>> policy changes, not the Facebook 'like' feature, whose purpose itself is
>> full of questions).
>>
>> A possibility may be a continuous rating system, with radio buttons on
>> each page, visible to logged in users (?), or actionable only by logged in
>> users, rather than an optionable survey on some other page. I see
>> difficulties with this as well, mind you, but throw it out as a suggestion.
>>
>> On the plus side, adding such user-involving features may be a way to
>> bring in more 'mature' community involvement in knowledge creation and
>> dissemination. I am often struck by the manner in which some relatively
>> half-baked 'improvement' gets to be quite popular while worthwhile
>> technology lies unused. 'The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But
>> in ourselves, that we are underlings', said the poet, but I hope we are
>> part of the solution, not content to remain the problem.
>>
> Article feedback 
> toolcurrently
>  in beta could be the impact metric that may be suitable for this
> purpose.
>
>
>> Somewhere in the future, I see some kind of 'sharing' as a possibility,
>> whereby individuals who have common interests can actively and dynamically
>> connect through wikipedia pages. That might throw up an interesting metric
>> as well.
>>
> I understand that part of the plans for Wikipedia is  to make it more
> social.
>
> Cheers
> Arjuna
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[Arjuna Rao Chavala]

2013/1/23 Vickram Crishna 

> On Jan 23, 2013 11:58 AM, "Arjuna Rao Chavala" 
> wrote:
>
> Rather than just the views, we need to look at the value felt by the
> viewers (may be by an annual survey) as a measure of the impact of
> Wikipedia's mission.
>
--cut--

> That is a very challenging thought, Arjuna. Online surveys are potentially
> quite weak, as evidenced by the Facebook voting process (for policy
> changes, not the Facebook 'like' feature, whose purpose itself is full of
> questions).
>
> A possibility may be a continuous rating system, with radio buttons on
> each page, visible to logged in users (?), or actionable only by logged in
> users, rather than an optionable survey on some other page. I see
> difficulties with this as well, mind you, but throw it out as a suggestion.
>
> On the plus side, adding such user-involving features may be a way to
> bring in more 'mature' community involvement in knowledge creation and
> dissemination. I am often struck by the manner in which some relatively
> half-baked 'improvement' gets to be quite popular while worthwhile
> technology lies unused. 'The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But
> in ourselves, that we are underlings', said the poet, but I hope we are
> part of the solution, not content to remain the problem.
>
Article feedback
toolcurrently
in beta could be the impact metric that may be suitable for this
purpose.


> Somewhere in the future, I see some kind of 'sharing' as a possibility,
> whereby individuals who have common interests can actively and dynamically
> connect through wikipedia pages. That might throw up an interesting metric
> as well.
>
I understand that part of the plans for Wikipedia is  to make it more
social.

Cheers
Arjuna
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[BalaSundaraRaman]

Interesting new metric, Arjun. Although, like you said, it's difficult to 
capture "the health and vitality" of a wiki in a single metric. Apart from 
external factors, I'd consider the following to have an influence on the path 
any wiki takes:

1. The seed community - typically small wikis start with just one motivated 
editor. If that person puts the wiki above themselves, it helps in attracting 
other motivated editors. [We were extremely lucky to have the visionary and 
unassuming Mayooranathan as our first active editor.] And then the first few 
active editors (six if I have to put a number to it) set the culture for 
generations to come. If they truly got the wiki philosophy and are committed to 
open knowledge in their mother tongues, then the wiki's safely out of stunted 
growth path. If there's diversity at that stage, it helps a lot.

2. Organic vs inorganic growth: wikis that use inorganic means like bots and 
automated translation cautiously and with an intent to drive organic growth 
further will have "durable growth." Part of the reason for the success (so far) 
of Tamil and Malayalam wikis is that. Bangla (for example) seems to be taking 
that choice. Other wikis may be on the right track, but I might not know.
 
Beyond these, relative growth rates of various wikis would depend on the 
external factors. It'll be nice to have a few case studies done by editors of 
their respective wikis along the lines of http://ta.wikipedia.org/s/bs8 will 
help us identify patterns. We can do number crunching at a higher level, but 
I'm sure editors of any wiki would have some special insider insights to share.


- Sundar

"That language is an instrument of human reason, and not merely a medium for 
the expression of thought, is a truth generally admitted."
- George Boole, quoted in Iverson's Turing Award Lecture


>
> From: Arjuna Rao Chavala 
>To: Discussion list on Indian language projects of Wikimedia. 
> 
>Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 4:35 PM
>Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 
>and priorities, Telugu WP report
> 
>
>
>
>
>-- Forwarded message --
>From: Arjuna Rao Chavala 
>Date: 2013/1/22
>Subject: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu 
>WP report
>To: wmin-members 
>
>
>Hi
>
>Please check out my blogpost on Indian Wikipedia languages status in 2012 and 
>priorities
>http://blog.wikimedia.in/2013/01/22/analysis-of-indian-language-wikipedias-for-2012/
>
>Report on Telugu Wikipedia  for 2012 is available at
>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Telugu_Wikipedia_-2012_Review.pdf
>
>Cheers
>Arjuna Rao Chavala
>
>
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>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[Vickram Crishna]

On Jan 23, 2013 11:58 AM, "Arjuna Rao Chavala"  wrote:

Rather than just the views, we need to look at the value felt by the
viewers (may be by an annual survey) as a measure of the impact of
Wikipedia's mission. In the absence of such a measure, we are looking at
Page views as an outcome. As page views itself may depend upon edits and
several other factors and influence other factors, I have considered it as
an input itself, as it is an important contributor to the activity.

There can be several ways to compute the quality of the Wikipedia. But that
is a different topic.

Cheers
Arjuna

That is a very challenging thought, Arjuna. Online surveys are potentially
quite weak, as evidenced by the Facebook voting process (for policy
changes, not the Facebook 'like' feature, whose purpose itself is full of
questions).

A possibility may be a continuous rating system, with radio buttons on each
page, visible to logged in users (?), or actionable only by logged in
users, rather than an optionable survey on some other page. I see
difficulties with this as well, mind you, but throw it out as a suggestion.

On the plus side, adding such user-involving features may be a way to bring
in more 'mature' community involvement in knowledge creation and
dissemination. I am often struck by the manner in which some relatively
half-baked 'improvement' gets to be quite popular while worthwhile
technology lies unused. 'The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But
in ourselves, that we are underlings', said the poet, but I hope we are
part of the solution, not content to remain the problem.

Somewhere in the future, I see some kind of 'sharing' as a possibility,
whereby individuals who have common interests can actively and dynamically
connect through wikipedia pages. That might throw up an interesting metric
as well.

-- 
Vickram
Fool On The Hill
"The cameras were all around. We've got you taped; you're in the play.
Here's your I.D. (Ideal for identifying one and all.)
Invest your life in the memory bank; ours the interest and we thank you."
Jethro Tull: A Passion Play (1973)

2013/1/22 sankarshan 
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Arjuna Rao Chavala
 wrote:
> Both are key measures of activity for the outcome of Wikipedia, that is
> sharing the sum of human knowledge. If there are not many page views
> resulting from less number of readers, there will be less enthusiasm on
the
> part of Editors to contribute. If there are more page views, more people
> will be interested to become Editors. Given the nature of these metrics
and
> different ranges, each one will not be a reliable measure by itself as  it
> is the interaction  in the Wikipedia eco-system that will be a more
> appropriate measure. I also  heard during some of wiki interactions that
> when Chinese language wikipedia was banned in China, the number of editors
> fell a lot.

When I realized that "Activity" is a product of the entities I
understood that the two entities are commutative. However, there was a
particular aspect which puzzled me - the number of views/viewers is a
function of the richness of the content. In other words, while that
value can certainly be influenced by the language community, it cannot
be controlled. Against that, the number of edits is a value that is
under the sphere of control of a language community. And, within that,
edits can perhaps be classified (in context of whether the data
available facilitates that deep dive) as : human and bots. Within the
human-edited subset, there are ways to visualize the trend of data
edits. Kiran did a bit of this way back -


TL;DR : the measure of activity could perhaps be accurately reflected
when specific data points around editing are considered rather than
using a relationship with views.

Rather than just the views, we need to look at the value felt by the
viewers (may be by an annual survey) as a measure of the impact of
Wikipedia's mission. In the absence of such a measure, we are looking at
Page views as an outcome. As page views itself may depend upon edits and
several other factors and influence other factors, I have considered it as
an input itself, as it is an important contributor to the activity.

There can be several ways to compute the quality of the Wikipedia. But that
is a different topic.

Cheers
Arjuna

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[Arjuna Rao Chavala]

2013/1/22 sankarshan 

> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Arjuna Rao Chavala
>  wrote:
> > Both are key measures of activity for the outcome of Wikipedia, that is
> > sharing the sum of human knowledge. If there are not many page views
> > resulting from less number of readers, there will be less enthusiasm on
> the
> > part of Editors to contribute. If there are more page views, more people
> > will be interested to become Editors. Given the nature of these metrics
> and
> > different ranges, each one will not be a reliable measure by itself as
>  it
> > is the interaction  in the Wikipedia eco-system that will be a more
> > appropriate measure. I also  heard during some of wiki interactions that
> > when Chinese language wikipedia was banned in China, the number of
> editors
> > fell a lot.
>
> When I realized that "Activity" is a product of the entities I
> understood that the two entities are commutative. However, there was a
> particular aspect which puzzled me - the number of views/viewers is a
> function of the richness of the content. In other words, while that
> value can certainly be influenced by the language community, it cannot
> be controlled. Against that, the number of edits is a value that is
> under the sphere of control of a language community. And, within that,
> edits can perhaps be classified (in context of whether the data
> available facilitates that deep dive) as : human and bots. Within the
> human-edited subset, there are ways to visualize the trend of data
> edits. Kiran did a bit of this way back -
> 
>
> TL;DR : the measure of activity could perhaps be accurately reflected
> when specific data points around editing are considered rather than
> using a relationship with views.
>

Rather than just the views, we need to look at the value felt by the
viewers (may be by an annual survey) as a measure of the impact of
Wikipedia's mission. In the absence of such a measure, we are looking at
Page views as an outcome. As page views itself may depend upon edits and
several other factors and influence other factors, I have considered it as
an input itself, as it is an important contributor to the activity.

There can be several ways to compute the quality of the Wikipedia. But that
is a different topic.

Cheers
Arjuna
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا]

Isn't Konkani in incubation too? FN

--
FN  Land +91-832-240-9490 Cell  +91-982-212-2436 f...@goa-india.org
Goa,1556's updated list of books available on and from Goa:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/76671049/Goa1556-Catalogue-Books-from-Goa




On 22 January 2013 16:35, Arjuna Rao Chavala  wrote:

>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Arjuna Rao Chavala 
> Date: 2013/1/22
> Subject: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities,
> Telugu WP report
> To: wmin-members 
>
>
> Hi
>
> Please check out my blogpost on Indian Wikipedia languages status in 2012
> and priorities
>
> http://blog.wikimedia.in/2013/01/22/analysis-of-indian-language-wikipedias-for-2012/
>
> Report on Telugu Wikipedia  for 2012 is available at
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Telugu_Wikipedia_-2012_Review.pdf
>
> Cheers
> Arjuna Rao Chavala
>
>
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>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[Arjuna Rao Chavala]

Hi,

2013/1/22 Ravishankar 

> Arjuna,
>
> Your approach to have an idea of a community's activity by combining some
> metrics is interesting. Also, to compare monthly averages instead of end of
> year performance is also good.
>
Thanks.
One clarification.
I took the sum of the metrics for the entire year rather than average.

>
> *Increase in database size, number of most active contributors (making
> more than 100 edits a month) and page views can be real indicators of
> growth and activity*. Is there any way to find database size? We don't
> have that and many other useful stats after May 2010. Check
> http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaTA.htm for example.
>

Yes and No, as any metric can be compromised. If database size is a
parameter, too many stub articles may adversely affect the quality.

Number of most active contributors is too small a number in most Indian
language Wikipedias. There has been debate about the % of people who
contribute to Wikipedia in English. While Jimmy is reported to have said
that it is small fraction which contributes the bulk, Aron Swartz did an
analysis that the bulk of contribution is made by large number of
wikipedians based on the bytes added metric. In wikipedia, I think the
former is more true, though it could be different if there are people who
are contributing stubs rather than reasonable sized articles.

You can get an account on Toolserver and obtain the database size
information.


>
> Also, any inference based on page views should normalize it based on the
> population of native speaking people to have a better perspective of the
> community's performance compared to its potential / size.
>

My analysis is more focussed on relative change in each language than
absolute numbers. The graphs included  the information for all the
languages to get a general feel of the languages together.

It is not the population alone which can be a significant factor, as there
are several other factors like the love for language and geographic
distribution of its speakers. Population numbers could be considered, but
then there is  lot of variation depending on the sources.

An exhaustive study would be  useful, if we can determine a independent
measure (may be by annual survey) as an impact of Wikipedia in
accomplishing its mission, then the various metrics  available like edits,
page views and their combinations  can be tried using statistical
algorithms to arrive at key parameters or parameter combinations.

I think it would be good for WMF to work on such a thing, as otherwise our
focus could be lost by looking at simple metrics like active editor/page
views.

Cheers
Arjuna
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[Ravishankar]

Arjuna,

Your approach to have an idea of a community's activity by combining some
metrics is interesting. Also, to compare monthly averages instead of end of
year performance is also good.

*Increase in database size, number of most active contributors (making more
than 100 edits a month) and page views can be real indicators of growth and
activity*. Is there any way to find database size? We don't have that and
many other useful stats after May 2010. Check
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaTA.htm for example.

Also, any inference based on page views should normalize it based on the
population of native speaking people to have a better perspective of the
community's performance compared to its potential / size.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[Arjuna Rao Chavala]

Hi Sankarshan,

2013/1/22 sankarshan 

> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Arjuna Rao Chavala
>  wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Please check out my blogpost on Indian Wikipedia languages status in 2012
> > and priorities
> >
> http://blog.wikimedia.in/2013/01/22/analysis-of-indian-language-wikipedias-for-2012/
>
> You write "As each one of us intuitively understand that number of
> page views and number of edits are correlated, I derived a metric
> called ‘Activity’ as their product" - would it be possible for you to
> explain why arriving at a product of these two factors is a measure of
> activity ?
>
Both are key measures of activity for the outcome of Wikipedia, that is
sharing the sum of human knowledge. If there are not many page views
resulting from less number of readers, there will be less enthusiasm on the
part of Editors to contribute. If there are more page views, more people
will be interested to become Editors. Given the nature of these metrics and
different ranges, each one will not be a reliable measure by itself as  it
is the interaction  in the Wikipedia eco-system that will be a more
appropriate measure. I also  heard during some of wiki interactions that
when Chinese language wikipedia was banned in China, the number of editors
fell a lot.


Note that I have considered overall database edits in the metric, which
also includes the edits that could be made through bots. Bots can be used
to improve the quality of Wikipedia by correcting for spelling mistakes
apart from less useful interwiki links. By one estimate, bots  are said to
be contributing to 10% to 30% of edits in  top ranked language
wikipedias.[1]



Cheers
Arjuna

[1] THE LIVES OF BOTS-R. STUART GEIGER in Critical Point of View-A
wikipedia reader", Page 78
Simple statistics indicate the growing influence of algorithmic actors on
the editorial process:in terms of the raw number of edits to the
English-language version of Wikipedia, automated bots are 17 of the top 20
most prolific editors 2 and collectively make about 16% of all edits to the
encyclopedia project. 3 On other major language versions of the project,
the percentage of edits made by bots ranges from around 10% (Japanese) to
30% (French).

--
> sankarshan mukhopadhyay
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Status of Indian language wikipedias in 2012 and priorities, Telugu WP report

[sankarshan]

On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Arjuna Rao Chavala
 wrote:

[snip]

> Please check out my blogpost on Indian Wikipedia languages status in 2012
> and priorities
> http://blog.wikimedia.in/2013/01/22/analysis-of-indian-language-wikipedias-for-2012/

You write "As each one of us intuitively understand that number of
page views and number of edits are correlated, I derived a metric
called ‘Activity’ as their product" - would it be possible for you to
explain why arriving at a product of these two factors is a measure of
activity ?

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay


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