Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

2011/1/4 Brion Vibber : > > > Indeed, Google Docs has an optimized editing UI for Android and iOS > that focuses precisely on making it easy to make a quick change to a > paragraph in a document or a cell in a spreadsheet (with concurrent > editing). > > > http://www.intomobile.com/2010/11/17/mobi

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

* Brion Vibber [Tue, 4 Jan 2011 13:39:28 -0800]: > On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Dirk Riehle wrote: > Wikis started out as *very* lightly formatted plaintext. The point was > to be > fast and easy -- in the context of web browsers which only offered > plaintext > editing, lightweight markup for

Re: [Wikitech-l] SpecialPages and Related users and titles

On 04/01/11 12:12, Ilmari Karonen wrote: > On 01/03/2011 11:09 PM, Aryeh Gregor wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 12:23 AM, MZMcBride wrote: >>> It looks like a nice usability fix. :-) (Now to get Special:MovePage turned >>> into ?action=move) >> >> I'd do the opposite -- stop using actions ot

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

2011/1/4 Brion Vibber : > A good document structure would allow useful editing for both simple > paragraphs and complex features like tables and templates even on such > primitive devices, by giving a dedicated editing interface the information > it needs to address individual paragraphs, template

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Brion Vibber wrote: > Exactly my point -- spending time tinkering with > sortof-human-readable-but-not-powerful-enough syntax distracts from thinking > about what needs to be *described* in the data... which is the important > thing needed when devising an actual st

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

On 05/01/11 00:37, Roan Kattouw wrote: > 2011/1/3 Brion Vibber : >> My SVGEdit wrapper code is currently using the ApiSVGProxy extension to read >> SVG files via the local MediaWiki API. This seems to work fine locally, but >> it's not enabled on Wikimedia sites, and likely won't be generally aroun

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:53 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: > - Original Message - > > From: "Brion Vibber" > > > Requiring people to do all their document creation at this level is > > like asking people to punch binary ASCII codes into cards by hand -- it's > > low-level grunt work that comput

Re: [Wikitech-l] What do we want to accomplish? (was Re: WikiCreole)

- Original Message - > From: "Mark A. Hershberger" > The problem naturally falls back on the parser: As I understand it, > the only reliable way of creating XHTML from MW markup is the parser that > is built into MediaWiki and is fairly hard to separate (something I > learned when I tried

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

- Original Message - > From: "Brion Vibber" > Requiring people to do all their document creation at this level is > like asking people to punch binary ASCII codes into cards by hand -- it's > low-level grunt work that computers can handle for us. We have > keyboards and monitors to replac

Re: [Wikitech-l] What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG)

- Original Message - > From: "Alex Brollo" > Just a brief comment: there's no need of seaching for "a perfect wiki > syntax", since it exists: it's the present model of well formed > markup, t.i. xml. I believe the snap reaction here is "you haven't tried to diff XML, have you? My perso

Re: [Wikitech-l] Need some input

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Chad wrote: > Ninja vs. Pirate. > > Discuss. Brion appears to have begun inserting a pro-ninja bias into our documentation years ago: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:User_rights&diff=next&oldid=148898 I, on the other hand, took care to treat both s

Re: [Wikitech-l] Need some input

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 7:49 PM, David Gerard wrote: > On 5 January 2011 00:45, Chad wrote: > >> I know you love talking about the issue, but please try to stay >> OT and not derail this thread. > > > You're just saying that because pirates stole all the well-formed XML. > Real pirates use serial

Re: [Wikitech-l] Need some input

On 5 January 2011 00:45, Chad wrote: > I know you love talking about the issue, but please try to stay > OT and not derail this thread. You're just saying that because pirates stole all the well-formed XML. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech

Re: [Wikitech-l] Need some input

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 7:39 PM, David Gerard wrote: > On 5 January 2011 00:37, Chad wrote: > >> Ninja vs. Pirate. >> Discuss. > > > Send a couple more stealth developers to WYSIFTW and it'll be ready to > sneakily deploy as an official gadget in three weeks or less. > Pirates aren't stealthy, an

Re: [Wikitech-l] Need some input

On 5 January 2011 00:37, Chad wrote: > Ninja vs. Pirate. > Discuss. Send a couple more stealth developers to WYSIFTW and it'll be ready to sneakily deploy as an official gadget in three weeks or less. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lis

[Wikitech-l] Need some input

Ninja vs. Pirate. Discuss. -Chad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

On 04.01.2011 22:39, Brion Vibber wrote: >> In order to have a visual editor or three, combined with a plain text >> editor, combined with some fancy other editor we have yet to invent, you >> will still need that specification that tells you what a valid wiki instance >> is. This is the core data;

Re: [Wikitech-l] Secure login and interwiki — link failures and best help pages?

Billinghurst wrote: > Following on from a recent discussion here, I have been trying to > watch the WMF world from a secure login. > > First statement is that it is problematic as so many links fail in the > interwiki space. I cannot work out why some links to other wikis work > fine and al

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

On Jan 4, 2011 1:54 PM, "David Gerard" wrote: > > On 4 January 2011 21:39, Brion Vibber wrote: > > > If the web browsers of 1995 had had native HTML editing, I rather suspect > > there would never have been series-of-single-quotes to represent italics and > > bold... > > > ... They did. Netscape

[Wikitech-l] Secure login and interwiki — link f ailures and best help pages?

Following on from a recent discussion here, I have been trying to watch the WMF world from a secure login. First statement is that it is problematic as so many links fail in the interwiki space. I cannot work out why some links to other wikis work fine and always take me to a secure server,

[Wikitech-l] What do we want to accomplish? (was Re: WikiCreole)

Brion Vibber writes: > Forget about syntax -- what do we want to *accomplish*? One thing *I* would like to accomplish is a fruitful *end* to parser discussions. A way to make any further discussion a moot point. >From the current discussion, it looks like people want to make it easier to work

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

On 4 January 2011 21:39, Brion Vibber wrote: > If the web browsers of 1995 had had native HTML editing, I rather suspect > there would never have been series-of-single-quotes to represent italics and > bold... ... They did. Netscape Gold was the version *most* people used, and it even had a WYS

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Dirk Riehle wrote: > > As long as we're hung up on details of the markup syntax, it's going to be >> very very hard to make useful forward motion on things that are actually >> going to enhance the capabilities of the system and put creative power in >> the hands

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

> As long as we're hung up on details of the markup syntax, it's going to be > very very hard to make useful forward motion on things that are actually > going to enhance the capabilities of the system and put creative power in > the hands of the users. > > Forget about syntax -- what do we want t

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

On 1/4/11 12:21 PM Neil Kandalgaonkar wrote: > On 1/4/11 12:51 PM, Platonides wrote: >> I don't see how FS authentication is useful there. >> All authentication would be performed by mediawiki, with a master >> credential such as $wgDBpassword. MediaWiki shouldn't need to send the >> media server a

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

On 1/4/11 12:51 PM, Platonides wrote: > I don't see how FS authentication is useful there. > All authentication would be performed by mediawiki, with a master > credential such as $wgDBpassword. MediaWiki shouldn't need to send the > media server a user password! Nobody said we'd be sending user p

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

>> (Note that I think any conversation about parser changes should consider >> the GoodPractices page from http://www.wikicreole.org/wiki/GoodPractices.) >> >> If nothing else, perhaps there would be some use for the EBNF grammar >> that was developed for WikiCreole. >> http://dirkriehle.com/2008/0

Re: [Wikitech-l] Wikimedia Storage System ( was JavaScript access to uploaded...)

Michael Dale wrote: >> I think thumbnail and transformation servers (they should also do >> stuff like rotating things on demand) are separate from how we store >> things, and will just be acting on behalf of the user anyway. So they >> don't introduce new requirements to image storage. Anybody see

Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?

Alex Brollo wrote: > Perhaps #lst is inefficient but I'd like to compare #lst and template > efficiency. Sometimes I see complex, very complex templates used for so > banal aims ;-) > > Alex That's an excellent case! It's better to use a single "inefficient" tool than one hundred of temp

Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?

2011/1/4 Platonides > > Do not try to be over-paranoid on not using the fetaures you have > available. You can ask for advice if something you have done is sane or > not, of course. > An interesting point is that labelled section transclusion is enabled on > French wikipedia. It's strange that so

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

Neil Kandalgaonkar wrote: > We've narrowed it down to two systems that are being tested right now, > MogileFS and OpenStack. OpenStack has more built-in stuff to support > authentication. MogileFS is used in many systems that have an > authentication layer, but it seems you have to build more of

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Mark A. Hershberger wrote: > Perhaps this is where we can cooperate more with other Wiki writers to > develop a common Wiki markup. From my brief perusal of efforts, it > looks like there is a community of developers involved in > but

Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?

Alex Brollo wrote: > Thanks Roan, your statement sound very alarming for me; I'll open a specific > thread about into wikisource-l quoting this talk. I'm doing any efford to > avoid server/history overload, since I know that I am using a free service > (I just fixed {{loop}} template to optimize it

Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?

Tei wrote: > The last time I tried to search something special about PHP (how to > force a garbage recollection in old versions of PHP) there was very > few hits on google, or none. Maybe that was because PHP only has garbage recollection since 5.3 :) For reference: http://php.net/manual/features

Re: [Wikitech-l] Wikimedia Storage System ( was JavaScript access to uploaded...)

On 01/04/2011 01:12 PM, Neil Kandalgaonkar wrote: > We've narrowed it down to two systems that are being tested right now, > MogileFS and OpenStack. OpenStack has more built-in stuff to support > authentication. MogileFS is used in many systems that have an > authentication layer, but it seems you

Re: [Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

Mark A. Hershberger wrote: > Perhaps this is where we can cooperate more with other Wiki writers to > develop a common Wiki markup. From my brief perusal of efforts, it > looks like there is a community of developers involved in > but MediaWiki involvement is lacking >

[Wikitech-l] WikiCreole (was Re: What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG))

Alex Brollo writes: > Just a brief comment: there's no need of seaching for "a perfect wiki > syntax", since it exists: it's the present model of well formed markup, t.i. > xml. And, from your answer, we can see that you mean “perfectly understandable to parsers”, but sacrifices human usability.

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

On 1/4/11 9:24 AM, Michael Dale wrote: > So ... it would be good to think about moving things like img_auth.php > and thumb.php over to an general purpose api media serving module no? It's related, but we're just laying the foundations now. I think we haven't really talked about this on wikitech

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

On 01/04/2011 05:57 PM, Roan Kattouw wrote: > 2011/1/4 Michael Dale: > >> It may hurt caching to serve everything over jsonp since we can't set >> smaxage with callback=randomString urls. If its just for editing its >> not a big deal, untill some IE svg viewer hack starts getting all svg >> over j

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Roan Kattouw wrote: > > Alternately, we could look at using HTTP access control headers on > > upload.wikimedia.org, to allow XMLHTTPRequest in newer browsers to make > > unauthenticated requests to upload.wikimedia.org and return data > directly: > > > This should

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

On 01/04/2011 09:57 AM, Roan Kattouw wrote: > The separate img_auth.php entry point is needed on wikis where reading > is restricted (private wiis), and img_auth.php will check for read > permissions before it outputs the file. The difference between the > proxy I wrote and img_auth.php is that img

Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?

On 4 January 2011 16:00, Alex Brollo wrote: > 2011/1/4 Roan Kattouw ... > > What a "creative" use of #lst allows, if it is really an efficient, light > routine, is to build named variables and arrays of named variables into one > page; I can't imagine what a good programmer could do with such a p

Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?

2011/1/4 Roan Kattouw > > What a "creative" use of #lst allows, if it is really an efficient, light > > routine, is to build named variables and arrays of named variables into > one > > page; I can't imagine what a good programmer could do with such a > powerful > > tool. I'm, as you can imagine,

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

2011/1/4 Michael Dale : > hmm... Is img_auth widely used? Can we just disable svg api data access > if $wgUploadPath includes imageAuth ... or add a configuration variable > that states if img_auth is an active entry point?  Why dont we think > about the problem diffrently and support serving image

Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?

2011/1/4 Alex Brollo : > Excellent, I'm a passionate user of #lst extension, and I like that its code > can be optimized (so I feel combortable to use it more and more). I can't > read php, and I take this opportunity to ask you: > I haven't read the code in detail, and I can't really answer these

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

On 01/03/2011 02:22 PM, Brion Vibber wrote: > Since ApiSVGProxy serves SVG files directly out on the local domain as their > regular content type, it potentially has some of the same safety concerns as > img_auth.php and local hosting of upload files. If that's a concern > preventing rollout, would

Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?

2011/1/4 Roan Kattouw > Just from looking at the LST code, I can tell that it has at least one > performance problem: it initializes the parser on every request. This > is easy to fix, so I'll fix it today. I can also imagine that there > would be other performance concerns with LST preventing it

Re: [Wikitech-l] Does anybody have the 20080726 dump version?

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Ariel T. Glenn wrote: > Στις 01-01-2011, ημέρα Σαβ, και ώρα 16:42 +, ο/η David Gerard > έγραψε: >> On 31 December 2010 17:09, Ariel T. Glenn wrote: >> >> > I'd like all the dumps from all the projects to be on line.  Being >> > realistic I think we would wind

Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?

2011/1/4 Alex Brollo : > Simply install Labeled Section Trasclusion into a large pedia project; Just from looking at the LST code, I can tell that it has at least one performance problem: it initializes the parser on every request. This is easy to fix, so I'll fix it today. I can also imagine that

Re: [Wikitech-l] JavaScript access to uploaded file contents: SVGEdit gadget needs ApiSVGProxy or CORS

2011/1/3 Brion Vibber : > My SVGEdit wrapper code is currently using the ApiSVGProxy extension to read > SVG files via the local MediaWiki API. This seems to work fine locally, but > it's not enabled on Wikimedia sites, and likely won't be generally around; > it looks like Roan threw it together as

Re: [Wikitech-l] How would you disrupt Wikipedia?

Can I suggest a really simple trick to inject something new into "stagnating" wikipedia? Simply install Labeled Section Trasclusion into a large pedia project; don't ask, simply install it. If you'd ask, typical pedian boldness would raise a comment "Thanks, we don't need such a thing" for sure. T

Re: [Wikitech-l] What would be a perfect wiki syntax? (Re: WYSIWYG)

I apologyze, I sent an empty reply. :-( Just a brief comment: there's no need of seaching for "a perfect wiki syntax", since it exists: it's the present model of well formed markup, t.i. xml. While digging into subtler troubles from wiki syntax, t.i. difficulties in parsing it by scripts or under