Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Jonathan Morgan]

I would start the conversation here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Teahouse/Host_lounge

Cullen328 and DESiegel are probably the most experienced/involved hosts
right now. Their voices are respected. But of course there's no leader :)

Jonathan

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 12:08 PM, C. Scott Ananian 
wrote:

> Keeping the teahouse thread alive...
>
> ...for some time I've wanted to prototype some real-time chat and editing
> features with the Teahouse folks (eg,
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TogetherJS) to make the
> "conversations" Risker mentions easier/more natural.  If anyone has
> suggestions about who to talk to about this, let me know.
>  --scott
>
> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Aaron Halfaker 
> wrote:
>
> > Ori said:
> >
> > > I would like us to consider the contribution that modifications to the
> > user experience make to the
> > > interpersonal climate on the wikis.
> > >
> > > I think that this is important.  Our social experience in computer
> > mediated spaces is intertwined with the technologies that manage our
> > interactions.  This is certainly true to Wikipedia[1] and I think it is
> > true generally[2].  While we may find it easy to discuss the technology
> and
> > social things separately, it is very important that we don't interpret
> this
> > as a real separation.  Our social patterns affect how we choose and
> design
> > our digital technologies and our digital technologies -- in turn --
> affect
> > our social patterns(for more discussion, see [3]).
> >
> > J-Mo said:
> >
> > > If WMF ever supports any additional Teahouse-related development, it
> > should
> > > be focused on giving more new editors, on more Wikis, access to
> Teahouses
> > > and Teahouse-like tools and resources—rather than doing anything to the
> > > Enwiki Teahouse itself, which is doing just fine.
> > >
> > > But J-Mo, we're literally planning to explore supporting the Teahouse
> > with
> > more digital technologies right now -- you and I!  E.g. using ORES
> >  to identify more good-faith newcomers to
> route
> > to the Teahouse & building a search interface to help newcomers explore
> > past questions.  Maybe it's OK because we don't plan to do anything *to*
> > the Teahouse, but rather to work *with* the hosts to figure out how to
> > build up capacity.   I suspect that, if the technologies we develop are
> > able to make the positive social interactions that the Teahouse excels in
> > available to more newcomers -- we'll succeed.  And hopefully, if our
> > technological investments into the Teahouse fail and somehow make
> positive,
> > human interactions more difficult or otherwise less common, we'll have
> the
> > insight to not deploy them beyond an experiment.
> >
> > This thread started out as a harmless (and humorous!) joke and it has
> > turned into a debate around our values with regards to technologies that
> we
> > intentionally integrate with social behaviors.  I think this is a
> > conversation we ought to have, but I'd really like to see us move beyond
> > platitudes.  Technology isn't good or bad.  It certainly isn't easy to
> get
> > right, but I believe we can co-evolve our tech and our social structures.
> > In a computer mediated environments such as ours, this socio-technical
> > co-evolution is our only hope to actually making real progress.
> >
> > 1. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Rise_and_Decline
> > 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociotechnical_system
> > 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-We4GZbH3Iw#t=34m04s (my "Paramecium
> > talk")
> >
> > -Aaron
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Matthew Flaschen <
> mflasc...@wikimedia.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 04/02/2016 09:37 PM, Ori Livneh wrote:
> > >
> > >> Why am I going on about this? I guess I'm a bit bummed out that the
> idea
> > >> of
> > >> designing user interfaces that seek to improve the emotional
> environment
> > >> by
> > >> making it easier to be warm and personal to one another is a joke.
> > >>
> > >
> > > For what it's worth, as someone who wasn't involved in that April
> Fools's
> > > "feature", but joke-reviewed it, I did not intend to to discourage any
> > > serious efforts to encourage a warm and productive editor community.
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> (http://cscott.net)
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



-- 
Jonathan T. Morgan
Senior Design Researcher
Wikimedia Foundation
User:Jmorgan (WMF) 

Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[C. Scott Ananian]

Keeping the teahouse thread alive...

...for some time I've wanted to prototype some real-time chat and editing
features with the Teahouse folks (eg,
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TogetherJS) to make the
"conversations" Risker mentions easier/more natural.  If anyone has
suggestions about who to talk to about this, let me know.
 --scott

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Aaron Halfaker 
wrote:

> Ori said:
>
> > I would like us to consider the contribution that modifications to the
> user experience make to the
> > interpersonal climate on the wikis.
> >
> > I think that this is important.  Our social experience in computer
> mediated spaces is intertwined with the technologies that manage our
> interactions.  This is certainly true to Wikipedia[1] and I think it is
> true generally[2].  While we may find it easy to discuss the technology and
> social things separately, it is very important that we don't interpret this
> as a real separation.  Our social patterns affect how we choose and design
> our digital technologies and our digital technologies -- in turn -- affect
> our social patterns(for more discussion, see [3]).
>
> J-Mo said:
>
> > If WMF ever supports any additional Teahouse-related development, it
> should
> > be focused on giving more new editors, on more Wikis, access to Teahouses
> > and Teahouse-like tools and resources—rather than doing anything to the
> > Enwiki Teahouse itself, which is doing just fine.
> >
> > But J-Mo, we're literally planning to explore supporting the Teahouse
> with
> more digital technologies right now -- you and I!  E.g. using ORES
>  to identify more good-faith newcomers to route
> to the Teahouse & building a search interface to help newcomers explore
> past questions.  Maybe it's OK because we don't plan to do anything *to*
> the Teahouse, but rather to work *with* the hosts to figure out how to
> build up capacity.   I suspect that, if the technologies we develop are
> able to make the positive social interactions that the Teahouse excels in
> available to more newcomers -- we'll succeed.  And hopefully, if our
> technological investments into the Teahouse fail and somehow make positive,
> human interactions more difficult or otherwise less common, we'll have the
> insight to not deploy them beyond an experiment.
>
> This thread started out as a harmless (and humorous!) joke and it has
> turned into a debate around our values with regards to technologies that we
> intentionally integrate with social behaviors.  I think this is a
> conversation we ought to have, but I'd really like to see us move beyond
> platitudes.  Technology isn't good or bad.  It certainly isn't easy to get
> right, but I believe we can co-evolve our tech and our social structures.
> In a computer mediated environments such as ours, this socio-technical
> co-evolution is our only hope to actually making real progress.
>
> 1. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Rise_and_Decline
> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociotechnical_system
> 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-We4GZbH3Iw#t=34m04s (my "Paramecium
> talk")
>
> -Aaron
>
> On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Matthew Flaschen 
> wrote:
>
> > On 04/02/2016 09:37 PM, Ori Livneh wrote:
> >
> >> Why am I going on about this? I guess I'm a bit bummed out that the idea
> >> of
> >> designing user interfaces that seek to improve the emotional environment
> >> by
> >> making it easier to be warm and personal to one another is a joke.
> >>
> >
> > For what it's worth, as someone who wasn't involved in that April Fools's
> > "feature", but joke-reviewed it, I did not intend to to discourage any
> > serious efforts to encourage a warm and productive editor community.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



-- 
(http://cscott.net)
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Aaron Halfaker]

Ori said:

> I would like us to consider the contribution that modifications to the user 
> experience make to the
> interpersonal climate on the wikis.
>
> I think that this is important.  Our social experience in computer
mediated spaces is intertwined with the technologies that manage our
interactions.  This is certainly true to Wikipedia[1] and I think it is
true generally[2].  While we may find it easy to discuss the technology and
social things separately, it is very important that we don't interpret this
as a real separation.  Our social patterns affect how we choose and design
our digital technologies and our digital technologies -- in turn -- affect
our social patterns(for more discussion, see [3]).

J-Mo said:

> If WMF ever supports any additional Teahouse-related development, it should
> be focused on giving more new editors, on more Wikis, access to Teahouses
> and Teahouse-like tools and resources—rather than doing anything to the
> Enwiki Teahouse itself, which is doing just fine.
>
> But J-Mo, we're literally planning to explore supporting the Teahouse with
more digital technologies right now -- you and I!  E.g. using ORES
 to identify more good-faith newcomers to route
to the Teahouse & building a search interface to help newcomers explore
past questions.  Maybe it's OK because we don't plan to do anything *to*
the Teahouse, but rather to work *with* the hosts to figure out how to
build up capacity.   I suspect that, if the technologies we develop are
able to make the positive social interactions that the Teahouse excels in
available to more newcomers -- we'll succeed.  And hopefully, if our
technological investments into the Teahouse fail and somehow make positive,
human interactions more difficult or otherwise less common, we'll have the
insight to not deploy them beyond an experiment.

This thread started out as a harmless (and humorous!) joke and it has
turned into a debate around our values with regards to technologies that we
intentionally integrate with social behaviors.  I think this is a
conversation we ought to have, but I'd really like to see us move beyond
platitudes.  Technology isn't good or bad.  It certainly isn't easy to get
right, but I believe we can co-evolve our tech and our social structures.
In a computer mediated environments such as ours, this socio-technical
co-evolution is our only hope to actually making real progress.

1. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Rise_and_Decline
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociotechnical_system
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-We4GZbH3Iw#t=34m04s (my "Paramecium
talk")

-Aaron

On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Matthew Flaschen 
wrote:

> On 04/02/2016 09:37 PM, Ori Livneh wrote:
>
>> Why am I going on about this? I guess I'm a bit bummed out that the idea
>> of
>> designing user interfaces that seek to improve the emotional environment
>> by
>> making it easier to be warm and personal to one another is a joke.
>>
>
> For what it's worth, as someone who wasn't involved in that April Fools's
> "feature", but joke-reviewed it, I did not intend to to discourage any
> serious efforts to encourage a warm and productive editor community.
>
> Matt
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 04/02/2016 09:37 PM, Ori Livneh wrote:

Why am I going on about this? I guess I'm a bit bummed out that the idea of
designing user interfaces that seek to improve the emotional environment by
making it easier to be warm and personal to one another is a joke.


For what it's worth, as someone who wasn't involved in that April 
Fools's "feature", but joke-reviewed it, I did not intend to to 
discourage any serious efforts to encourage a warm and productive editor 
community.


Matt

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Ori Livneh]

On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Risker  wrote:

> I sympathize with your concern, Ori.  I suspect, however, that it shows a
> fundamental misunderstanding of why the Teahouse works when other processes
> (several of which have included cute symbols) have been less effective.
>
> And the reason is: the Teahouse is explicitly designed for having
> conversations.
>
> Teahouse "convenors" were initially selected for their demonstrated
> communication skills and willingness to remain polite when dealing with
> often frustrated people, and their ability to explain often complex
> concepts in straightforward terms.  As their ranks have evolved, they have
> sought out and taught others those skills, and there's an element of
> self-selection that discourages the more curmudgeonly amongst us from
> participating.  (There's not a lot of overlap between those who regularly
> help out at the Teahouse and those who hang out on ANI, for example.)
> We're talking about a relatively small group of people who really excel at
> this type of communication, although it is certainly a skill that others
> can develop if they have the willingness and inclination - but it really
> comes down to being able to identify the right "level" at which to talk to
> people, and then actually talking.
>
> The Teahouse works because it doesn't [obviously] use a lot of fancy
> technology, because it doesn't use a lot of templates and automated
> messaging, because it's made a lot of effort to avoid massive hyperlinking
> to complex and inscrutable policies.  It's people talking to people.


Yes, fair point. But as long as there exists a need for developing new
features and modifying existing ones, I would like us to consider the
contribution that modifications to the user experience make to the
interpersonal climate on the wikis. Because the contribution is very much
greater than zero. Of course at the end of the day it is about people
making choices about how they relate to one another, and no amount of
Fisher-Price gadgetry will ever change that. But we don't communicate via mind
melds ; we use
imperfect and idiosyncratic media which end up shaping and coloring both
what we communicate and how it is received. So we ought to think carefully
about these effects.¹

(By the way, there was a great Radiolab  episode
about this recently: The Trust Engineers
. Keep in mind that I am
recommending the *episode*, not endorsing all the practices it describes,
some of which make me queasy.)

¹ Concrete example: the way that jenkins-bot gives you a -1 for changes it
can't rebase. Ugh!
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Jonathan Morgan]

+1 to everything Ori and Risker said (obviously).

Pine: I try not to mess with the Teahouse :) I have a hard enough time
convincing the Hosts that it's A Good Thing that threads on the Q board
are posted in reverse-chronological order. If I lobbied hard for an
Teahouse Emoji pilot, I would probably lose my remaining street cred,
disrupt peoples' workflows, and risk alienating a bunch of awesome people
who are doing really important work, for free.

If WMF ever supports any additional Teahouse-related development, it should
be focused on giving more new editors, on more Wikis, access to Teahouses
and Teahouse-like tools and resources—rather than doing anything to the
Enwiki Teahouse itself, which is doing just fine.

J

On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 9:02 AM, Risker  wrote:

> I sympathize with your concern, Ori.  I suspect, however, that it shows a
> fundamental misunderstanding of why the Teahouse works when other processes
> (several of which have included cute symbols) have been less effective.
>
> And the reason is: the Teahouse is explicitly designed for having
> conversations.
>
> Teahouse "convenors" were initially selected for their demonstrated
> communication skills and willingness to remain polite when dealing with
> often frustrated people, and their ability to explain often complex
> concepts in straightforward terms.  As their ranks have evolved, they have
> sought out and taught others those skills, and there's an element of
> self-selection that discourages the more curmudgeonly amongst us from
> participating.  (There's not a lot of overlap between those who regularly
> help out at the Teahouse and those who hang out on ANI, for example.)
> We're talking about a relatively small group of people who really excel at
> this type of communication, although it is certainly a skill that others
> can develop if they have the willingness and inclination - but it really
> comes down to being able to identify the right "level" at which to talk to
> people, and then actually talking.
>
> The Teahouse works because it doesn't [obviously] use a lot of fancy
> technology, because it doesn't use a lot of templates and automated
> messaging, because it's made a lot of effort to avoid massive hyperlinking
> to complex and inscrutable policies.  It's people talking to people.  It's
> scaled remarkably well - I suspect because there are more "nice"
> Wikipedians than people realize - where other processes have failed.
> Several of those processes failed because we couldn't link up the right
> people giving the right messages to new users (MoodBar was an example of
> that - on top of the really problematic technical issues it raised), and
> others failed because they were pretty much designed to deprecate direct
> person-to-person communcation (AFT-5 would be in that category).
>
> Nonetheless, I think you've raised an important point.  If we can develop
> processes that can better link up new users with people who have the
> interest and skill to communicate with those new users, we should keep
> trying those technologies. But those technologies need to incorporate the
> existing findings that the most effective way of attracting and retaining
> new editors is direct, one-to-one communication. Not templates. Not cute
> emojicons. Not canned text, and certainly not links to complicated
> policies. It's people talking to people in a helpful way that makes the
> difference.  And that's a lot harder than meets the eye.
>
> And now, having written this, I'm going to spend some time trying to figure
> out how to create a message to new users I encounter when I'm oversighting
> their personal information...without templating or linking to complex
> policies, but pointing them to the Teahouse. I'm pretty sure it's not going
> to be very easy, but I'm going to try.
>
> Thank you for saying this, Ori.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
>
> On 2 April 2016 at 21:37, Ori Livneh  wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Legoktm 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
> > > networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
> > > Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
> > > networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
> > > join them.
> > >
> > > I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
> > > extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
> > > different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
> > > feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
> > > of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
> > > really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
> > >
> >
> > Of the many initiatives to improve editor engagement and retention that
> the
> > Wikimedia Foundation has launched over the years, the only one that had a
> > 

Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Ariel Glenn WMF]

Don't laugh, but I actually looked for the like button after reading this
post (too much time on Twitter).  I would like to see more of these
initiatives, whatever form they might take.  We have something that made a
difference, let's build on that.

Ariel

On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Risker  wrote:

> I sympathize with your concern, Ori.  I suspect, however, that it shows a
> fundamental misunderstanding of why the Teahouse works when other processes
> (several of which have included cute symbols) have been less effective.
>
> And the reason is: the Teahouse is explicitly designed for having
> conversations.
>
> Teahouse "convenors" were initially selected for their demonstrated
> communication skills and willingness to remain polite when dealing with
> often frustrated people, and their ability to explain often complex
> concepts in straightforward terms.  As their ranks have evolved, they have
> sought out and taught others those skills, and there's an element of
> self-selection that discourages the more curmudgeonly amongst us from
> participating.  (There's not a lot of overlap between those who regularly
> help out at the Teahouse and those who hang out on ANI, for example.)
> We're talking about a relatively small group of people who really excel at
> this type of communication, although it is certainly a skill that others
> can develop if they have the willingness and inclination - but it really
> comes down to being able to identify the right "level" at which to talk to
> people, and then actually talking.
>
> The Teahouse works because it doesn't [obviously] use a lot of fancy
> technology, because it doesn't use a lot of templates and automated
> messaging, because it's made a lot of effort to avoid massive hyperlinking
> to complex and inscrutable policies.  It's people talking to people.  It's
> scaled remarkably well - I suspect because there are more "nice"
> Wikipedians than people realize - where other processes have failed.
> Several of those processes failed because we couldn't link up the right
> people giving the right messages to new users (MoodBar was an example of
> that - on top of the really problematic technical issues it raised), and
> others failed because they were pretty much designed to deprecate direct
> person-to-person communcation (AFT-5 would be in that category).
>
> Nonetheless, I think you've raised an important point.  If we can develop
> processes that can better link up new users with people who have the
> interest and skill to communicate with those new users, we should keep
> trying those technologies. But those technologies need to incorporate the
> existing findings that the most effective way of attracting and retaining
> new editors is direct, one-to-one communication. Not templates. Not cute
> emojicons. Not canned text, and certainly not links to complicated
> policies. It's people talking to people in a helpful way that makes the
> difference.  And that's a lot harder than meets the eye.
>
> And now, having written this, I'm going to spend some time trying to figure
> out how to create a message to new users I encounter when I'm oversighting
> their personal information...without templating or linking to complex
> policies, but pointing them to the Teahouse. I'm pretty sure it's not going
> to be very easy, but I'm going to try.
>
> Thank you for saying this, Ori.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
>
> On 2 April 2016 at 21:37, Ori Livneh  wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Legoktm 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
> > > networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
> > > Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
> > > networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
> > > join them.
> > >
> > > I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
> > > extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
> > > different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
> > > feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
> > > of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
> > > really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
> > >
> >
> > Of the many initiatives to improve editor engagement and retention that
> the
> > Wikimedia Foundation has launched over the years, the only one that had a
> > demonstrable and substantial impact (AFAIK) was the Teahouse.
> >
> > The goal of the Teahouse initiative was "learning whether a social
> approach
> > to new editor support could retain more new editors there"; its stated
> > design goal was to create a space for new users which would feature "warm
> > colors, inviting pictorial and thematic elements, simple mechanisms for
> > communicating, and a warm welcome from real people."[0]
> >
> > Several studies were made of 

Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Risker]

I sympathize with your concern, Ori.  I suspect, however, that it shows a
fundamental misunderstanding of why the Teahouse works when other processes
(several of which have included cute symbols) have been less effective.

And the reason is: the Teahouse is explicitly designed for having
conversations.

Teahouse "convenors" were initially selected for their demonstrated
communication skills and willingness to remain polite when dealing with
often frustrated people, and their ability to explain often complex
concepts in straightforward terms.  As their ranks have evolved, they have
sought out and taught others those skills, and there's an element of
self-selection that discourages the more curmudgeonly amongst us from
participating.  (There's not a lot of overlap between those who regularly
help out at the Teahouse and those who hang out on ANI, for example.)
We're talking about a relatively small group of people who really excel at
this type of communication, although it is certainly a skill that others
can develop if they have the willingness and inclination - but it really
comes down to being able to identify the right "level" at which to talk to
people, and then actually talking.

The Teahouse works because it doesn't [obviously] use a lot of fancy
technology, because it doesn't use a lot of templates and automated
messaging, because it's made a lot of effort to avoid massive hyperlinking
to complex and inscrutable policies.  It's people talking to people.  It's
scaled remarkably well - I suspect because there are more "nice"
Wikipedians than people realize - where other processes have failed.
Several of those processes failed because we couldn't link up the right
people giving the right messages to new users (MoodBar was an example of
that - on top of the really problematic technical issues it raised), and
others failed because they were pretty much designed to deprecate direct
person-to-person communcation (AFT-5 would be in that category).

Nonetheless, I think you've raised an important point.  If we can develop
processes that can better link up new users with people who have the
interest and skill to communicate with those new users, we should keep
trying those technologies. But those technologies need to incorporate the
existing findings that the most effective way of attracting and retaining
new editors is direct, one-to-one communication. Not templates. Not cute
emojicons. Not canned text, and certainly not links to complicated
policies. It's people talking to people in a helpful way that makes the
difference.  And that's a lot harder than meets the eye.

And now, having written this, I'm going to spend some time trying to figure
out how to create a message to new users I encounter when I'm oversighting
their personal information...without templating or linking to complex
policies, but pointing them to the Teahouse. I'm pretty sure it's not going
to be very easy, but I'm going to try.

Thank you for saying this, Ori.

Risker/Anne



On 2 April 2016 at 21:37, Ori Livneh  wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Legoktm 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
> > networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
> > Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
> > networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
> > join them.
> >
> > I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
> > extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
> > different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
> > feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
> > of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
> > really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
> >
>
> Of the many initiatives to improve editor engagement and retention that the
> Wikimedia Foundation has launched over the years, the only one that had a
> demonstrable and substantial impact (AFAIK) was the Teahouse.
>
> The goal of the Teahouse initiative was "learning whether a social approach
> to new editor support could retain more new editors there"; its stated
> design goal was to create a space for new users which would feature "warm
> colors, inviting pictorial and thematic elements, simple mechanisms for
> communicating, and a warm welcome from real people."[0]
>
> Several studies were made of the Teahouse's impact on editors. One study,
> conducted by Jonathan Morgan and Aaron Halfaker, found that new editors who
> were invited to participate in the Teahouse were 10% more likely to have
> met the thresholds for survival in the weeks and months after
> registration.[1]
>
> Another significant fact about the Teahouse is the substantial
> participation from women. Women make up 9% of the general editor
> population, but 29% percent of Teahouse participants.[2]
>
> When new editors 

Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Pine W]

I like that idea, Ori. Jonathan, what do you think about testing this
concept in the Teahouse, as well as wikitext talk pages and Flow talk pages?

Pine
On Apr 2, 2016 18:38, "Ori Livneh"  wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Legoktm 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
> > networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
> > Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
> > networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
> > join them.
> >
> > I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
> > extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
> > different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
> > feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
> > of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
> > really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
> >
>
> Of the many initiatives to improve editor engagement and retention that the
> Wikimedia Foundation has launched over the years, the only one that had a
> demonstrable and substantial impact (AFAIK) was the Teahouse.
>
> The goal of the Teahouse initiative was "learning whether a social approach
> to new editor support could retain more new editors there"; its stated
> design goal was to create a space for new users which would feature "warm
> colors, inviting pictorial and thematic elements, simple mechanisms for
> communicating, and a warm welcome from real people."[0]
>
> Several studies were made of the Teahouse's impact on editors. One study,
> conducted by Jonathan Morgan and Aaron Halfaker, found that new editors who
> were invited to participate in the Teahouse were 10% more likely to have
> met the thresholds for survival in the weeks and months after
> registration.[1]
>
> Another significant fact about the Teahouse is the substantial
> participation from women. Women make up 9% of the general editor
> population, but 29% percent of Teahouse participants.[2]
>
> When new editors who had been invited to the Teahouse were asked (in a 2012
> survey) to described what they liked about their experiences, many
> respondents spoke about the positive emotional environment, saying things
> like: "the fact that there is somebody 'out there', that there is a sincere
> community, gives a professional and safe feeling about Wikipedia", and "the
> editors are very friendly and patient, which is great when compared to the
> rest of Wikipedia in how new editors are treated."[2]
>
> Why am I going on about this? I guess I'm a bit bummed out that the idea of
> designing user interfaces that seek to improve the emotional environment by
> making it easier to be warm and personal to one another is a joke. I don't
> think any topic is sacrosanct, this topic included. But humor works best
> when it provides a counterpoint and a foil to "serious" discourse, and
> there just isn't very much serious discourse on this topic to go around. I
> also worry that people in and around our community who feel a need for more
> opportunities for positive emotional interactions will feel invalidated,
> ridiculous, ashamed, or at any rate less confident about ever speaking up
> about this topic in a serious way, and less hopeful about being heard.
>
>   [0]: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse
>   [1]:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse_long_term_new_editor_retention#Results
>   [2]:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse/Phase_2_report/Metrics
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Ori Livneh]

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 12:20 AM, Ryan Lane  wrote:

> To be totally honest, I think this is a great idea, but it should use
> emojis. Github added this for PRs and messages for instance, and it's
> amazingly helpful:
>
>
> https://github.com/blog/2119-add-reactions-to-pull-requests-issues-and-comments
>
> Slack has the same thing. It's fun, people like it, and it tends to
> encourage better interactions.
>

And, yeah: +1.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Ori Livneh]

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Legoktm 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
> networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
> Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
> networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
> join them.
>
> I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
> extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
> different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
> feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
> of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
> really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
>

Of the many initiatives to improve editor engagement and retention that the
Wikimedia Foundation has launched over the years, the only one that had a
demonstrable and substantial impact (AFAIK) was the Teahouse.

The goal of the Teahouse initiative was "learning whether a social approach
to new editor support could retain more new editors there"; its stated
design goal was to create a space for new users which would feature "warm
colors, inviting pictorial and thematic elements, simple mechanisms for
communicating, and a warm welcome from real people."[0]

Several studies were made of the Teahouse's impact on editors. One study,
conducted by Jonathan Morgan and Aaron Halfaker, found that new editors who
were invited to participate in the Teahouse were 10% more likely to have
met the thresholds for survival in the weeks and months after
registration.[1]

Another significant fact about the Teahouse is the substantial
participation from women. Women make up 9% of the general editor
population, but 29% percent of Teahouse participants.[2]

When new editors who had been invited to the Teahouse were asked (in a 2012
survey) to described what they liked about their experiences, many
respondents spoke about the positive emotional environment, saying things
like: "the fact that there is somebody 'out there', that there is a sincere
community, gives a professional and safe feeling about Wikipedia", and "the
editors are very friendly and patient, which is great when compared to the
rest of Wikipedia in how new editors are treated."[2]

Why am I going on about this? I guess I'm a bit bummed out that the idea of
designing user interfaces that seek to improve the emotional environment by
making it easier to be warm and personal to one another is a joke. I don't
think any topic is sacrosanct, this topic included. But humor works best
when it provides a counterpoint and a foil to "serious" discourse, and
there just isn't very much serious discourse on this topic to go around. I
also worry that people in and around our community who feel a need for more
opportunities for positive emotional interactions will feel invalidated,
ridiculous, ashamed, or at any rate less confident about ever speaking up
about this topic in a serious way, and less hopeful about being heard.

  [0]: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse
  [1]:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse_long_term_new_editor_retention#Results
  [2]:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse/Phase_2_report/Metrics
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Ryan Lane]

To be totally honest, I think this is a great idea, but it should use
emojis. Github added this for PRs and messages for instance, and it's
amazingly helpful:

https://github.com/blog/2119-add-reactions-to-pull-requests-issues-and-comments

Slack has the same thing. It's fun, people like it, and it tends to
encourage better interactions.

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> I can't tell if this is intended to be an April 1st joke or if it's
> serious. In any case, I could see this being an interesting option for talk
> pages, particularly where Flow is enabled.
>
> Pine
>
> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Legoktm 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
> > networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
> > Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
> > networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
> > join them.
> >
> > I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
> > extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
> > different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
> > feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
> > of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
> > really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
> >
> > Of course, some might consider this feature to be controversial (I
> > suspect they would respond to my email with "anger" or "fear"), so I've
> > added a feature flag for it. Setting
> >  $wgDontFixEditorRetentionProblem = true;
> > will disable it for your wiki.
> >
> > Please give the patch a try, I've only tested it in MonoBook so far, it
> > might need some extra CSS in Vector.
> >
> > [1] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/280961
> > [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810964
> > [3] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810963
> >
> > -- Legoktm
> >
> > ___
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> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Pine W]

I can't tell if this is intended to be an April 1st joke or if it's
serious. In any case, I could see this being an interesting option for talk
pages, particularly where Flow is enabled.

Pine

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Legoktm 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
> networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
> Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
> networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
> join them.
>
> I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
> extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
> different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
> feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
> of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
> really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
>
> Of course, some might consider this feature to be controversial (I
> suspect they would respond to my email with "anger" or "fear"), so I've
> added a feature flag for it. Setting
>  $wgDontFixEditorRetentionProblem = true;
> will disable it for your wiki.
>
> Please give the patch a try, I've only tested it in MonoBook so far, it
> might need some extra CSS in Vector.
>
> [1] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/280961
> [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810964
> [3] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810963
>
> -- Legoktm
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Martijn Hoekstra]

On Apr 1, 2016 11:00 PM, "C. Scott Ananian"  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Legoktm 
wrote:
>
> > I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
> > extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
> > different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
> > feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
> > of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
> > really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
> >
>
>
> Only one of these options?
>   --scott, surprised, happy & a bit fearful
>
> --
> (http://cscott.net)

Not angry, just disappointed

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[C. Scott Ananian]

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Legoktm  wrote:

> I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
> extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
> different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
> feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
> of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
> really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
>


Only one of these options?
  --scott, surprised, happy & a bit fearful

-- 
(http://cscott.net)
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Ryan Lane]

/me marks this email with "anger"

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Ricordisamoa 
wrote:

> This sounds like something that some random WMF team would actually
> implement in the near future...
>
>
> Il 01/04/2016 21:24, Legoktm ha scritto:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
>> networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
>> Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
>> networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
>> join them.
>>
>> I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
>> extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
>> different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
>> feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
>> of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
>> really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
>>
>> Of course, some might consider this feature to be controversial (I
>> suspect they would respond to my email with "anger" or "fear"), so I've
>> added a feature flag for it. Setting
>>   $wgDontFixEditorRetentionProblem = true;
>> will disable it for your wiki.
>>
>> Please give the patch a try, I've only tested it in MonoBook so far, it
>> might need some extra CSS in Vector.
>>
>> [1] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/280961
>> [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810964
>> [3] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810963
>>
>> -- Legoktm
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Ricordisamoa]

This sounds like something that some random WMF team would actually 
implement in the near future...


Il 01/04/2016 21:24, Legoktm ha scritto:

Hi,

It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
join them.

I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
really feel, which the recipient will see[3].

Of course, some might consider this feature to be controversial (I
suspect they would respond to my email with "anger" or "fear"), so I've
added a feature flag for it. Setting
  $wgDontFixEditorRetentionProblem = true;
will disable it for your wiki.

Please give the patch a try, I've only tested it in MonoBook so far, it
might need some extra CSS in Vector.

[1] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/280961
[2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810964
[3] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810963

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Brad Jorsch (Anomie)]

On Apr 1, 2016 10:24 PM, "Legoktm"  wrote:
> happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear.

No sadness or disgust?
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Brion Vibber]



-- brion
On Apr 1, 2016 10:24 PM, "Legoktm"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
> networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
> Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
> networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
> join them.
>
> I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
> extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
> different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
> feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
> of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
> really feel, which the recipient will see[3].
>
> Of course, some might consider this feature to be controversial (I
> suspect they would respond to my email with "anger" or "fear"), so I've
> added a feature flag for it. Setting
>  $wgDontFixEditorRetentionProblem = true;
> will disable it for your wiki.
>
> Please give the patch a try, I've only tested it in MonoBook so far, it
> might need some extra CSS in Vector.
>
> [1] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/280961
> [2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810964
> [3] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810963
>
> -- Legoktm
>
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[Wikitech-l] Feelings

[Legoktm]

Hi,

It's well known that Wikipedia is facing threats from other social
networks and losing editors. While many of us spend time trying to make
Wikipedia different, we need to be cognizant that what other social
networks are doing is working. And if we can't beat them, we need to
join them.

I've written a patch[1] that introduces a new feature to the Thanks
extension called "feelings". When hovering over a "thank" link, five
different emoji icons will pop up[2], representing five different
feelings: happy, love, surprise, anger, and fear. Editors can pick one
of those options instead of just a plain thanks, to indicate how they
really feel, which the recipient will see[3].

Of course, some might consider this feature to be controversial (I
suspect they would respond to my email with "anger" or "fear"), so I've
added a feature flag for it. Setting
 $wgDontFixEditorRetentionProblem = true;
will disable it for your wiki.

Please give the patch a try, I've only tested it in MonoBook so far, it
might need some extra CSS in Vector.

[1] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/280961
[2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810964
[3] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F3810963

-- Legoktm

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