RE: [WISPA] affordable 900 Mhz was Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems
We made a firm decision before we installed our first 900 AP, if they really want internet, and 900 is the only way we can provide it, they have to buy the gear, up front, no exceptions. It gives the customer an option, and it beats satellite service any day of the week. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 3:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] affordable 900 Mhz was Tranzeo WDS capacity,Mikrotik - problems I agree its more affordable, but how do you eat a $400 cpe? ROI is bad enough with a $200 cpe. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. 573.729.9200 - Office 573.729.9203 - Fax 573.247.9980 - Mobile http://www.accubak.com/ http://www.accubak.net/ Nationwide Internet Access Accurate backups for your critical data! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Hensley Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems I appreciate it. We're looking hard at the new 900 stuff from Tranzeo. Gear finally down in the affordable range for me, but, I hate to be one of the first to use it :-) Thanks for everyone's feedback!! - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems > Jason Hensley wrote: >> So Marlon, using what I perceive to be your ideas below, it's not too bad >> of a deal to put a "marginal" customer on (maybe not at -90, but >> maybe -80 or even -85, or do you think -85 is not even good enough?) so >> long as we have a clean link and we can make it with next to no packet >> loss? >> >> In my situation, I'm selling mainly 512kbps connections. I have a few >> that want a full meg, and one that may be looking at 3meg shortly, but >> I've got mainly resi customers at the moment. I'm finding though, that I >> can beat up on DSL pricing for businesses here so I'm starting to hit >> that market a little more. But, I need to be sure my system is stable >> before I really get into this. >> >> I appreciate everyone's feedback on this topic. > > Jason, one thing you have to remember is your system is only as good as > your weakest link. > > If you put on a sub who is marginally connected he will pull your ap down > when he is busy downloading etc. > > A link that has no traffic running across it regardless of how weak or > marginal it is won't have an effect until he starts passing traffic. > Then all hell will break loose. > > The best strategy is always install solid links and if you do have to hook > someone up that will be marginal, make sure it's very temporary and > you have an alternative link for it in the near future. > I have had to hook up subs that were marginal, but when I do It's because > I'm just trying to land the sub and have a game plan like putting in a > 900MHz system or maybe a new micro pop repeater to re feed him in the near > future. > > Hope this is helpful > > George > > > > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Municipal Broadband - A Growing Threat (to Telcos)
All, As quoted from the article; "“The competitive impacts of municipal broadband will be especially threatening to incumbents to the extent that muni nets can be cost- justified by increased efficiencies, cost savings and other ‘internal’ or social benefits captured by local governments, schools, and other public institutions,” the report states." While some understand the cost savings these networks can bring others are still focused on the "free wifi cloud" for the population in these areas. There needs to be more focus on the fact that there are so many other benefits to these municipal networks such as water meter reading, public safety communications etc. For these applications to work a robust network has to be built with the following in mind low latency, 9 reliability, high capacity, and so on. Cost savings for local government, businesses and residential should also be factored into the equation for services such as telecommunications times X number of phone lines just for government offices and broadband access for all schools. I understand that this is only the tip of the ice burg and there are so many other applications and cost savings for these networks. My point is that the network has to be built robust enough to be able to support it all including a wifi cloud. Thanks to Jack for bringing this article to the list. :-) Regards, Dawn DiPietro Jack Unger wrote: http://www.telecommagazine.com/newsglobe/article.asp?HH_ID=AR_2244 --- --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Municipal Broadband - A Growing Threat (to Telcos)
Most RFP's I have reviewed including Atlanta are hot for someone to come in and give away free wi-fi, especially to schools and the under-served sections of town. There are a couple of problems: 1) How do you monetize that? 2) Most of the under-served don't have computers The only real threat to the telcos and cablecos is that the cheap users will use the free system, so some of their revenues will decrease. But so will support costs. And I am sure at some point they will stop maintaining and/or upgrading low revenue facilities, furthering the Digital Divide. But that won't stop them from collecting USF monies. There are monies available to build these networks if the governments could get it together: Quality of Life grants; Homeland Security funding; USF monies for libraries and schools - and those are just the ones off the top of my pointed beanie. It's all coming to a head. Between now and 2009, lots of turbulence to come. Much of it hangs on the lame telecom re-write and how much of a push-over Martin will be. If he gets a spine, it could be a great economic revival. - Peter Dawn DiPietro wrote: All, As quoted from the article; "“The competitive impacts of municipal broadband will be especially threatening to incumbents to the extent that muni nets can be cost- justified by increased efficiencies, cost savings and other ‘internal’ or social benefits captured by local governments, schools, and other public institutions,” the report states." While some understand the cost savings these networks can bring others are still focused on the "free wifi cloud" for the population in these areas. There needs to be more focus on the fact that there are so many other benefits to these municipal networks such as water meter reading, public safety communications etc. For these applications to work a robust network has to be built with the following in mind low latency, 9 reliability, high capacity, and so on. Cost savings for local government, businesses and residential should also be factored into the equation for services such as telecommunications times X number of phone lines just for government offices and broadband access for all schools. I understand that this is only the tip of the ice burg and there are so many other applications and cost savings for these networks. My point is that the network has to be built robust enough to be able to support it all including a wifi cloud. Thanks to Jack for bringing this article to the list. :-) Regards, Dawn DiPietro http://www.telecommagazine.com/newsglobe/article.asp?HH_ID=AR_2244 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems
As I recall, Paul Farber had for more problems than the cable co. If he treated his customers the way he treated people on the lists sometimes. grin Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems I dunno. I kinda disagree with those who think marginal is just fine. I can tell they do not compete against Qwest DSL or Charter cable. 512k, will get you no where and service that is up down in speeds will not get you subs when the real competition shows up to play in your sandbox. Party is over. Real world kicks in and fantasy land turns into a nightmare. We've heard it on these lists in the past with wisps building a low speed network and the cable ops turning on and taking all their subs. Remember Paul Farber? Sure there are exceptions in markets that are not mature, but like I said, it will be a different story when the competition shows up, which is pretty darn soon if you don't have any at this time. Build your network to it's highest performance and breath a little bit of relief. Build it right the first time and get the most out of your investment. George Carl A Jeptha wrote: Yes Marlon, real world is different from the theory (yes, Lonnie I know you run your own ISP). I quote "We endeavour to deliver 256kbps, but speed may be up to 4.5 mbps. No "Up Ito's", because you will never see it. Depending on who you ask the radios when they have perfect line of sight is actually capable of 11mbps. So I say again, we endeavour to deliver 256kbps, and if on the day of the install we find for what ever reason that we cannot deliver our speed we will remove the equipment and leave, no charge." Most customers' response is, "Okay so when will you be installing". My response, "we have a two week backlog, we will see if we can fit you in." Customer, "Great, I'll see you in two weeks time" You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca office 905 349-2084 Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900 skype cajeptha Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: I'm gonna disagree with Lonnie here. Kinda. We agree on the -75 dB thing. But on the number of customers I'm wa on the other side of the fence. Probably on the other side of the pasture too. Just in Odessa here we have something like 50 to 75 subs pulling from a single ap. It's an OLD lucent ap1000. Only an 11 meg radio. It feeds two other repeater sites (those are included in the subscriber count). You can run a speed test here at almost any time you want and my customers get 2 to 3 megs of actual speed out to the internet. 4x+ the actual speed of dsl in town for only $5 per month more. I will agree that marginal links will slow the whole network down. But I try to look at things from a pragmatic standpoint. Not just sales or techie view point. The question for me is, are the customers happy? Are they wanting/needing more? Are the expectations properly set and met? My fiber feed here is peaking at 3 megs today. 3.19 to be exact. But the AVERAGE is only 640k. This circuit feeds 24 pots lines and 150ish wireless subs. NON of whom are on bandwidth shaped links. It's wide open for all of them. Some of the businesses get 8ish megs via a trango system in town too. All systems and all customer bases are different. Us "experts" in the industry are often very good at telling you how to run our networks. The hard part is that we're all correct :-P. Here's MY rule of thumb for customers per ap. When people start telling me that things aren't as fast as they used to be, I'll put in another one. OR if *I* know I can do a much better job by splitting things off (gonna do that to one system today, only 10ish subs but it's never worked as well as it should so I'm gonna redesign things, again). My one complaining customer on that tower complains about everything though. When I go to his house to test the actual speed it's always good. Maybe I'm working too hard for one squeaky wheel. Too bad he's not only a tech support guy but also a relative! hehehehehehe Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: "Lonnie Nunweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS
Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems
Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: As I recall, Paul Farber had for more problems than the cable co. If he treated his customers the way he treated people on the lists sometimes. grin True, and I want to point out that after I reread what I wrote, tthat I didn't mean to make it sound like a wisp who was only serving low speed bandwidth was in some way any less of or inferior of a wisp. As a businessman, I realize that you should get what you can "while" you can and if a lower speed does the trick, more success to you. I was mixing in the warning of the coming competition and the quality of which our links should be. Anyways, if I insulted any of yeah, my apologies. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] frame size and fps - Mikrotik large packets
Disclaimer- My techs did all the testing and hands on configurations, so I'm responding third hand. To bridge correctly (based on 802.11 client design limitations) WDS is required. So we only tested Large Packets across WDS. As we only needed large packets when we were bridging to pass VLAN and IPSEC data that initiated at our cell site router and terminated at the building router. The topology was: Cell router - wreless - Mikrotik AP - wireless - Microtik building router. The physical Mikrotik hardware was tested by us to pass the large packets in our lab as well as the software. I am not sure that Mikrotik allows the increase of MTU on ports or configurations that don't allow it by specification such as wireless client mode ports. Maybe it can maybe it can't? However our model was not necessarilly to pass large packet in any configuration. Our goal was to deliver the Client a Full 1500 MTU packet size, so that if we (our transport network) layered on VLAN tagging or VPN tunneling to transport it across our network, it would be added on top (up to 1542 packet size) without compromising the customers 1500 MTU guaranteed to them. In our application, I'm not even sure if there was a need to increase the MTU above 1500 on the Mikrotik interface configuration, as the VLAN data just got inserted above the 1500 mtu, and the VLAN configured port on the other end allowed it in. I'd have to double check. But I'll ask tech tommorrow. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:10 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] frame size and fps - Mikrotik large packets The other day, I was trying to configure the mtu setting on a Mikrotik, and even though the manual said it supports up to 1600-byte -- the interface configuration won't let me set anything above 1500 Anyone? Tricks? Thoughts? Suggestions? (Tom -- you mentioned in the post that you tested Mikrotik w/ large packets)? -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 6:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K I only mentioned Mikrotik as its abilty to pass large packets has been tested. I believe we couldn't do that with StarOS as a limitation of Wifi clients (although not positive, as I did not investigate WDS options on StarOS which allows the large packets and full passing bridge features.) With that asside, I guess it would be fair to consider StarOS, Ikarus, and Mikrotik as the same class product. I actually wanted to classify it by hardware class such as OEM Atheros products. But technically thatdefinition would include Alvarion. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 3:15 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K Hi Tom, Not to add another "chink" to your debate -- but it is worth noting that Mikrotik is more of a "jack of all trades" solution (they do routing, hotspot, etc) than a wireless solution While they do an ok job w/ wireless, IMO, their strength is more the convenience coming from the integration of multiple packages and its flexibility rather than the performance of any single feature If you're looking at purely a "wireless" solution (in this "do-it-yourself" genre) -- you need to include Star-OS / Ikarus in your evaluation (but then, documentation gets a bit sparse there...) -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 5:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K Paul, Although many have reported very high speeds with Mikrotik. Our live tests in noisy environments (wether accepted as accurate or not) showed we were not able to get the peak speeds out of Mikrotik where we could get them from Alvarion. Our comparative tests were done with the Alvarion ver 3 firmware (not 4 yet). The Alvarion speeds that we got were right on the numbers with the speeds test Alvarion tech support sent us. Actually our tested speeds were a bit higher in some some cases. (Take note we only got accurate speeds when we hard set modulation to optimal (picked the best one for the situation) modulation for testing). I do not mean this as a negative comment on Mikrotik. Our competition to Alvarion is NOT Trango, Trango does not yet have a 20 mbps product for
Re: [WISPA] frame size and fps - Mikrotik large packets
Jeff, Although what you said is true, by standard. MikrotikOS and various Manufactuers (Trango) have hacked the drivers to allow larger size packets. For example, MPLS 100 mbps routers require Higher MTU than 1500. Service providers need packet size larger than 1500, so that they can deliver the standard 1500 MTU size to the end user. This is becomming a requirement for complex configurations such as VLAN and virtual circuit based Ethernet networks. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Jeff Broadwick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 4:54 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] frame size and fps - Mikrotik large packets The Ethernet standard maximum packet size is 1500 bytes (not counting the header). You can use jumbo frames in GigE applications, but not in 10/100, and not all switches support them, because there is no standard. Jeff Broadwick ImageStream 800-813-5123 x106 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:11 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] frame size and fps - Mikrotik large packets The other day, I was trying to configure the mtu setting on a Mikrotik, and even though the manual said it supports up to 1600-byte -- the interface configuration won't let me set anything above 1500 Anyone? Tricks? Thoughts? Suggestions? (Tom -- you mentioned in the post that you tested Mikrotik w/ large packets)? -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 6:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K I only mentioned Mikrotik as its abilty to pass large packets has been tested. I believe we couldn't do that with StarOS as a limitation of Wifi clients (although not positive, as I did not investigate WDS options on StarOS which allows the large packets and full passing bridge features.) With that asside, I guess it would be fair to consider StarOS, Ikarus, and Mikrotik as the same class product. I actually wanted to classify it by hardware class such as OEM Atheros products. But technically thatdefinition would include Alvarion. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 3:15 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K Hi Tom, Not to add another "chink" to your debate -- but it is worth noting that Mikrotik is more of a "jack of all trades" solution (they do routing, hotspot, etc) than a wireless solution While they do an ok job w/ wireless, IMO, their strength is more the convenience coming from the integration of multiple packages and its flexibility rather than the performance of any single feature If you're looking at purely a "wireless" solution (in this "do-it-yourself" genre) -- you need to include Star-OS / Ikarus in your evaluation (but then, documentation gets a bit sparse there...) -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 5:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K Paul, Although many have reported very high speeds with Mikrotik. Our live tests in noisy environments (wether accepted as accurate or not) showed we were not able to get the peak speeds out of Mikrotik where we could get them from Alvarion. Our comparative tests were done with the Alvarion ver 3 firmware (not 4 yet). The Alvarion speeds that we got were right on the numbers with the speeds test Alvarion tech support sent us. Actually our tested speeds were a bit higher in some some cases. (Take note we only got accurate speeds when we hard set modulation to optimal (picked the best one for the situation) modulation for testing). I do not mean this as a negative comment on Mikrotik. Our competition to Alvarion is NOT Trango, Trango does not yet have a 20 mbps product for PtMP. We look at our Trango as the best choice to tackle the worse noisy environments (for us almost everywhere :-) Our competition for Alvarion is actually Mikrotik. Mikrotik probably has the single highest value from a feature cost perspective. Why pay Alvarion price, when Mikrotik can do almost the same thing at a fraction of the cost. Mikrotik has changed this market and forced competing vendors to look at how to be more competitive. Mikrotik is doing w
RE: [WISPA] Automating Mikrotik Backups
Has anybody taken this a step further and set up some type of automated “ftp” or something more secure to download new updates? Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 9:51 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Automating Mikrotik Backups /system backup save name=MS1; /tool e-mail send to="[EMAIL PROTECTED]" subject=([/system identity get name] . "Backup") server=10.10.10.10 file=MS1.backup Put these in a script and schedule the script as often as you want. I have all my routers email me on Thursday night. 10.10.10.10 needs to be your mail server address. Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- Original Message --- From: "KyWiFi LLC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 16:28:52 -0400 Subject: [WISPA] Automating Mikrotik Backups > Does Mikrotik have a method of backing up its settings > like is done with the StarOS StarUtil commands? If so, > what are the commands? I'm wanting to make sure we > automate this much needed task with http://www.ISPBuddy.com > which will allow automated nightly backups to our remote > storage facility. > > Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder > KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky > "Your Hometown Broadband Provider" > http://www.KyWiFi.com > Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 > === > $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet > $14.99 Home Phone Service > $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV > - No Phone Line Required for DSL > - FREE Activation & Equipment > - Affordable Upfront Pricing > - Locally Owned & Operated > - We Also Service Most Rural Areas > === > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- End of Original Message --- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/395 - Release Date: 07/21/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/401 - Release Date: 07/26/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
