Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
Tom, Quick question, then my response... do all Apex's ship with the fiber port in them? I really have to bite my tounge... I don't want to get into what all happened (basically I don't want my thoughts made public and the customer I was working for to read them) but I was not impressed at all with the Trango Giga product... I just helped install nine links last week. All I did was install and configure the radios, so yes they said 256QAM at 3xx Meg... but I didn't get to test it with live data, etc. What I will say, the alignment LED is a gimmick. Give me a BNC connector hooked up to a voltmeter any day. First my voltmeter is going to read to decimals, which is very helpful aligning long links. Second, the LED is about worthless if the sun is shining on it, you have to cover it with your hands to read the numbers which was difficult on at least one link I was aligning. Third, positioning on some towers to align the link made reading the LED difficult. None of these issues are problems with my voltmeter, I simply just use a strip of electrical tape and tape it to the ODU where I want. One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga. Made aligning 3ft dishes a bit easier... With all of that said, what is the price on the Apex now that the summer special is long over? Before jumping for Trango, I would encourage anyone to show me a current quote and to see if I can match it with Dragonwave... from what I understand I can come damn close :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I thought I'd share my recent experience OK 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was expecting. And it just freakin Worked! WooHoo! Man, I like this radio. I specificaly liked the fact that the all outdoor unit, comes with 3 ports, 1 fiber, 1 GigE, 1 out-of-band managemnet, and supports inband management on the GigE. What I thought was unique was that either of the two Ethernet ports could be used to provide the POE power input. And also optionally can just run stanrdard Electrical wire to the Molex connector instead if prefer. But I was extremely impressed at the flexibilty in options to install this. The alignment LED is also awesome, that is positioned in a convenient place and shows actual RSSI DB number, as it really speeds up install and made it possible for one person to accurately align it. Also note... The older Giga had some anoying firmware bugs last year in their Betas (typical of Beta), and I finally got around to upgrading to the latest firmwares. (I was 9 months overdue for the task) Guess what... All the problems are FIXED!! Atleast the ones I knew about. I was really pleased. I have to say this product line is REALLY coming along nicely. Only thing I caution to be aware of is It takes a while to fully understand the relationship of how well your link is performing in relation to what the MSE value of the radio is. MSE is the equivellent of measurement of SNR and distortion. And the ATPC and Adaptive Modulation thresholds are based on specific MSEs reached. The MSE feature/meter works good and accurately, it was just an issue of understanding how to interperate it. I was also impreseed on how fast they associate when they are taking out of opmode and back on in opmode. Its super quick. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class as Trango and Canopy. So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened to the RD. The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good example. Motorola has delivered a product that just works. It is expensive compared to other products sold to the same marketplace, but it is NOT expensive for what it
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Wouldn't that be great? Imagine those new Verizon Blackberry's the use our network to transport cell calls (for which Verizon still gets paid!!!) paying back to us for the use of the network. I think that in the end though, data needs to be thought of just like electricity, water, gasoline, tires, food, etc. The more you use the more you have to buy. Safeway doesn't care if you shop for yourself or your restaurant. They don't care if you cook the food or toss it out unused. They just want to sell food. I'm the same with data bits. I don't care what they are or what you do with them as long as you pay for what you actually use. marlon - Original Message - From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information I was charging high usage customers by the meg back in 1997 at the ISP I was GM of. The clients didnt mind as long as I capped it so there was not a huge surprise bill. I've always said it will end up that way just like most utilites. Anything that is unlimited is abused. Currently, with the ISP I own/operate, I am not charging for over usage but I'm close to implementing it. I could care less if the abusers go to the competition and beat them up. Really though, I think we are missing a piece due to the lack of organization. The telcos get fees for terminating calls. We should get something like that from Netflix, etc. - oops, wake me back up! -RickG On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have always had a per bit plan in place. Our speeds are as high as 10 meg on wireless and 100 on fiber. Yet our average user is down at 3 megs. Well, really below that as my tracking mechanism counts the servers and high end business users and it really shouldn't do that. We're still growing nicely and have lost very few customers due to usage issues over the years. Usually they are the ones that I really didn't want anyway. Sell one account and they build their own system that covers the entire neighborhood, watch TV online etc. I really feel for my competitors. We've certainly run off more than a few potential new customers because of our 6 gig limit. I'd love to see the bw and gig numbers for some of the other wisps in my area. I'll bet it's amazingly different. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now, how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year. I wasn't trying to say well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency space and put them up on the towers .. What I am getting at is that opening these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that WILL be there. For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try and operate in. The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65 or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate properly. All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad switching equipment .. well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!! Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that supports as you said high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks .. But that is today. With innovation in communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment or innovation will not exist in the future. -drew On
Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
One more quick rant... those waveguide pieces SUCK. They caused many problems (screws on them stripping out, or some tech installing them the wrong way before it was sent up the tower and installed so I when we went to align them it wouldn't work because the waveguide was twisted 90 degrees...) I don't understand why Trango did that... my really old PCom links had the waveguide built onto the dish... Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex Tom, Quick question, then my response... do all Apex's ship with the fiber port in them? I really have to bite my tounge... I don't want to get into what all happened (basically I don't want my thoughts made public and the customer I was working for to read them) but I was not impressed at all with the Trango Giga product... I just helped install nine links last week. All I did was install and configure the radios, so yes they said 256QAM at 3xx Meg... but I didn't get to test it with live data, etc. What I will say, the alignment LED is a gimmick. Give me a BNC connector hooked up to a voltmeter any day. First my voltmeter is going to read to decimals, which is very helpful aligning long links. Second, the LED is about worthless if the sun is shining on it, you have to cover it with your hands to read the numbers which was difficult on at least one link I was aligning. Third, positioning on some towers to align the link made reading the LED difficult. None of these issues are problems with my voltmeter, I simply just use a strip of electrical tape and tape it to the ODU where I want. One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga. Made aligning 3ft dishes a bit easier... With all of that said, what is the price on the Apex now that the summer special is long over? Before jumping for Trango, I would encourage anyone to show me a current quote and to see if I can match it with Dragonwave... from what I understand I can come damn close :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I thought I'd share my recent experience OK 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was expecting. And it just freakin Worked! WooHoo! Man, I like this radio. I specificaly liked the fact that the all outdoor unit, comes with 3 ports, 1 fiber, 1 GigE, 1 out-of-band managemnet, and supports inband management on the GigE. What I thought was unique was that either of the two Ethernet ports could be used to provide the POE power input. And also optionally can just run stanrdard Electrical wire to the Molex connector instead if prefer. But I was extremely impressed at the flexibilty in options to install this. The alignment LED is also awesome, that is positioned in a convenient place and shows actual RSSI DB number, as it really speeds up install and made it possible for one person to accurately align it. Also note... The older Giga had some anoying firmware bugs last year in their Betas (typical of Beta), and I finally got around to upgrading to the latest firmwares. (I was 9 months overdue for the task) Guess what... All the problems are FIXED!! Atleast the ones I knew about. I was really pleased. I have to say this product line is REALLY coming along nicely. Only thing I caution to be aware of is It takes a while to fully understand the relationship of how well your link is performing in relation to what the MSE value of the radio is. MSE is the equivellent of measurement of SNR and distortion. And the ATPC and Adaptive Modulation thresholds are based on specific MSEs reached. The MSE feature/meter works good and accurately, it was just an issue of understanding how to interperate it. I was also impreseed on how fast they associate when they are taking out of opmode and back on in opmode. Its super quick. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are cheap. I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Tom, Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then Canopy except the software selectable polarity? My only experience with Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed (especially after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that did have to deal with them) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:45 PM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
I had the same question. The main difference is that we know before the roll in most cases the frequency and color code and if that ap is blocked by trees we generally have several others in different directions that the tech can switch to on the fly. Most importantly, 6 months later it is still working. 5 years later it is still working. On the few with problems the call center folks diagnose and fix the problem remotely. Only if the wind has caused a misalignment do we have to do a truck roll. I have yet to see any material difference or benefit to using Trango over Canopy. But I can show the converse. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Tom, Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then Canopy except the software selectable polarity? My only experience with Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed (especially after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that did have to deal with them) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with
Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
We have installed 3 of these links and put them together (dish, radio, IDU) without even looking at the manual. Every link came right up and we didn't have a single problem. Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: One more quick rant... those waveguide pieces SUCK. They caused many problems (screws on them stripping out, or some tech installing them the wrong way before it was sent up the tower and installed so I when we went to align them it wouldn't work because the waveguide was twisted 90 degrees...) I don't understand why Trango did that... my really old PCom links had the waveguide built onto the dish... Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex Tom, Quick question, then my response... do all Apex's ship with the fiber port in them? I really have to bite my tounge... I don't want to get into what all happened (basically I don't want my thoughts made public and the customer I was working for to read them) but I was not impressed at all with the Trango Giga product... I just helped install nine links last week. All I did was install and configure the radios, so yes they said 256QAM at 3xx Meg... but I didn't get to test it with live data, etc. What I will say, the alignment LED is a gimmick. Give me a BNC connector hooked up to a voltmeter any day. First my voltmeter is going to read to decimals, which is very helpful aligning long links. Second, the LED is about worthless if the sun is shining on it, you have to cover it with your hands to read the numbers which was difficult on at least one link I was aligning. Third, positioning on some towers to align the link made reading the LED difficult. None of these issues are problems with my voltmeter, I simply just use a strip of electrical tape and tape it to the ODU where I want. One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga. Made aligning 3ft dishes a bit easier... With all of that said, what is the price on the Apex now that the summer special is long over? Before jumping for Trango, I would encourage anyone to show me a current quote and to see if I can match it with Dragonwave... from what I understand I can come damn close :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I thought I'd share my recent experience OK 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was expecting. And it just freakin Worked! WooHoo! Man, I like this radio. I specificaly liked the fact that the all outdoor unit, comes with 3 ports, 1 fiber, 1 GigE, 1 out-of-band managemnet, and supports inband management on the GigE. What I thought was unique was that either of the two Ethernet ports could be used to provide the POE power input. And also optionally can just run stanrdard Electrical wire to the Molex connector instead if prefer. But I was extremely impressed at the flexibilty in options to install this. The alignment LED is also awesome, that is positioned in a convenient place and shows actual RSSI DB number, as it really speeds up install and made it possible for one person to accurately align it. Also note... The older Giga had some anoying firmware bugs last year in their Betas (typical of Beta), and I finally got around to upgrading to the latest firmwares. (I was 9 months overdue for the task) Guess what... All the problems are FIXED!! Atleast the ones I knew about. I was really pleased. I have to say this product line is REALLY coming along nicely. Only thing I caution to be aware of is It takes a while to fully understand the relationship of how well your link is performing in relation to what the MSE value of the radio is. MSE is the equivellent of measurement of SNR and distortion. And the ATPC and Adaptive Modulation thresholds are based on specific MSEs reached. The MSE feature/meter works good and accurately, it was just an issue of understanding how to interperate it. I was also impreseed on how fast they associate when they are taking out of opmode and back on in opmode. Its super quick. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Butch Evans" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in
Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
Hi, Having used the "voltmeter" vs. LED method of aligning, I will take the LED any day. One less piece of equipment to have to deal with on the tower, and a much more accurate way to see the true RSSI on the link. And, I think we already did the "pricing" thing about 5 months ago, didn't we? Seems like the Dragonwave was about $3,000 more for less of a radio... ;) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Tom, Quick question, then my response... do all Apex's ship with the fiber port in them? I really have to bite my tounge... I don't want to get into what all happened (basically I don't want my thoughts made public and the customer I was working for to read them) but I was not impressed at all with the Trango Giga product... I just helped install nine links last week. All I did was install and configure the radios, so yes they said 256QAM at 3xx Meg... but I didn't get to test it with live data, etc. What I will say, the alignment LED is a gimmick. Give me a BNC connector hooked up to a voltmeter any day. First my voltmeter is going to read to decimals, which is very helpful aligning long links. Second, the LED is about worthless if the sun is shining on it, you have to cover it with your hands to read the numbers which was difficult on at least one link I was aligning. Third, positioning on some towers to align the link made reading the LED difficult. None of these issues are problems with my voltmeter, I simply just use a strip of electrical tape and tape it to the ODU where I want. One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga. Made aligning 3ft dishes a bit easier... With all of that said, what is the price on the Apex now that the summer special is long over? Before jumping for Trango, I would encourage anyone to show me a current quote and to see if I can match it with Dragonwave... from what I understand I can come damn close :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I thought I'd share my recent experience OK 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was expecting. And it just freakin Worked! WooHoo! Man, I like this radio. I specificaly liked the fact that the all outdoor unit, comes with 3 ports, 1 fiber, 1 GigE, 1 out-of-band managemnet, and supports inband management on the GigE. What I thought was unique was that either of the two Ethernet ports could be used to provide the POE power input. And also optionally can just run stanrdard Electrical wire to the Molex connector instead if prefer. But I was extremely impressed at the flexibilty in options to install this. The alignment LED is also awesome, that is positioned in a convenient place and shows actual RSSI DB number, as it really speeds up install and made it possible for one person to accurately align it. Also note... The older Giga had some anoying firmware bugs last year in their Betas (typical of Beta), and I finally got around to upgrading to the latest firmwares. (I was 9 months overdue for the task) Guess what... All the problems are FIXED!! Atleast the ones I knew about. I was really pleased. I have to say this product line is REALLY coming along nicely. Only thing I caution to be aware of is It takes a while to fully understand the relationship of how well your link is performing in relation to what the MSE value of the radio is. MSE is the equivellent of measurement of SNR and distortion. And the ATPC and Adaptive Modulation thresholds are based on specific MSEs reached. The MSE feature/meter works good and accurately, it was just an issue of understanding how to interperate it. I was also impreseed on how fast they associate when they are taking out of opmode and back on in opmode. Its super quick. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Butch Evans" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value" decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix. I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap". I am not sure I would say that even MOST of them are cheap. But enough of them are that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action. Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc Since they have fixed their wireless,
Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
LEDs lack resolution. While you can bracket the signal and guess at the center, with more significant digits you don't have to guess. Both methods work, but bracketing takes some skill. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex Hi, Having used the voltmeter vs. LED method of aligning, I will take the LED any day. One less piece of equipment to have to deal with on the tower, and a much more accurate way to see the true RSSI on the link. And, I think we already did the pricing thing about 5 months ago, didn't we? Seems like the Dragonwave was about $3,000 more for less of a radio... ;) Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Tom, Quick question, then my response... do all Apex's ship with the fiber port in them? I really have to bite my tounge... I don't want to get into what all happened (basically I don't want my thoughts made public and the customer I was working for to read them) but I was not impressed at all with the Trango Giga product... I just helped install nine links last week. All I did was install and configure the radios, so yes they said 256QAM at 3xx Meg... but I didn't get to test it with live data, etc. What I will say, the alignment LED is a gimmick. Give me a BNC connector hooked up to a voltmeter any day. First my voltmeter is going to read to decimals, which is very helpful aligning long links. Second, the LED is about worthless if the sun is shining on it, you have to cover it with your hands to read the numbers which was difficult on at least one link I was aligning. Third, positioning on some towers to align the link made reading the LED difficult. None of these issues are problems with my voltmeter, I simply just use a strip of electrical tape and tape it to the ODU where I want. One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga. Made aligning 3ft dishes a bit easier... With all of that said, what is the price on the Apex now that the summer special is long over? Before jumping for Trango, I would encourage anyone to show me a current quote and to see if I can match it with Dragonwave... from what I understand I can come damn close :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I thought I'd share my recent experience OK 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was expecting. And it just freakin Worked! WooHoo! Man, I like this radio. I specificaly liked the fact that the all outdoor unit, comes with 3 ports, 1 fiber, 1 GigE, 1 out-of-band managemnet, and supports inband management on the GigE. What I thought was unique was that either of the two Ethernet ports could be used to provide the POE power input. And also optionally can just run stanrdard Electrical wire to the Molex connector instead if prefer. But I was extremely impressed at the flexibilty in options to install this. The alignment LED is also awesome, that is positioned in a convenient place and shows actual RSSI DB number, as it really speeds up install and made it possible for one person to accurately align it. Also note... The older Giga had some anoying firmware bugs last year in their Betas (typical of Beta), and I finally got around to upgrading to the latest firmwares. (I was 9 months overdue for the task) Guess what... All the problems are FIXED!! Atleast the ones I knew about. I was really pleased. I have to say this product line is REALLY coming along nicely. Only thing I caution to be aware of is It takes a while to fully understand the relationship of how well your link is performing in relation to what the MSE value of the radio is. MSE is the equivellent of measurement of SNR and distortion. And the ATPC and Adaptive Modulation thresholds are based on specific MSEs reached. The MSE feature/meter works good and accurately, it was just an issue of understanding how to interperate it. I was also impreseed on how fast they associate when they are taking out of opmode and back on in opmode. Its super quick. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix.
[WISPA] free video conferencing
I thought I would drop a line here and pass on a site that seemed really cool. It is free for up to three to video conference and I guess always free for individuals to video chat - like Instant Messengers. www.oovoo.com Mac Dearman CEO Maximum Access, LLC. www.inetsouth.com http://www.inetsouth.com/ Rayville, La. 318.728.8600 318.728.9600 318.728.8642 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
You get a break if you sign up with Trango as an ISP. I have to admit, I like Mikrotik for residential but am leery to use it for business customers. -RickG On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:08 AM, Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Truck roll: $50 MikroTik CPE: $200 Trango SU: $786 (as of Nov 26 2008 2AM) Repairing your Trango link without having to truck roll: *three times* the price of MikroTik and slow truck roll (no, not priceless - we live in a capitalist economy) Source: http://www.trangobroadband.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=M5830S-SU On a serious note - what issues were fixed remotely with Trango? The only issue that come to mind are bad radios and repointing dishes on those long 8 mile links after a wind storm. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other vendors pretend to have the above features... But not really to an equal caliber. For example, siure a Mikrotik can listen for noise, but you have to associate first, or other wise not hear all technology's noise, and end up temporarilly interfering with someone before you can see if jsut the single channel does interfer. MAnufacturers ahve come a long way, but they still need improved MACs that allow them to offer the Basic Core management features. I'm not sure it is possible today with standard OEM/OFDM products, because if it was, it would have been done already. The closest thing to accomplsihing it, is Canopy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I must be using a different product line then everyone else here - the Trango Access 5800 has left quite a bit to be desired - short range and at most 7mbps throughput. Mikrotik (costing less new then Trango used) easily outperforms in wireless distance, throughput and (my favorite) capability. I have no experience with Canopy but I can imagine from all the great buffs it gets around here and their well known history in wireless I don't doubt it is a good product. Redline is to radios as Sony is to LCDs. Can't be beat in quality... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
Re: [WISPA] free video conferencing
Gmail has integrated video chat - right in the browser... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I thought I would drop a line here and pass on a site that seemed really cool. It is free for up to three to video conference and I guess always free for individuals to video chat - like Instant Messengers. www.oovoo.com Mac Dearman CEO Maximum Access, LLC. www.inetsouth.com http://www.inetsouth.com/ Rayville, La. 318.728.8600 318.728.9600 318.728.8642 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Travis, Im a little late responding to this thread, but I will put my two cents in. Currently there are products on the market that are shipping that deliver 15-20mb per AP but you wont find much in the wimax arena that will ever deliver more than 50 mb, due to the need to use a small channel width, even with 2X2 mimo. That being said, it doesnt mean that Wimax products are not at a level where you cannot support 250 subscribers per sector. On a legacy wifi product such as VL, Trango, etc the products do not have the benefits of the Wimax mac. At any rate, what you are talking about is the availablity of a Pico product, not a micro or macro. Companies like ours are working on PICO products but expect most to deliver Pico in 802.16e, and later on in the next year and a half or so. - Jeff Booher Director of Sales, North America www.apertonet.com http://www.apertonet.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Marlon, 6 gig per month or 6 gig per day? Jason Marlon K. Schafer wrote: We have always had a per bit plan in place. Our speeds are as high as 10 meg on wireless and 100 on fiber. Yet our average user is down at 3 megs. Well, really below that as my tracking mechanism counts the servers and high end business users and it really shouldn't do that. We're still growing nicely and have lost very few customers due to usage issues over the years. Usually they are the ones that I really didn't want anyway. Sell one account and they build their own system that covers the entire neighborhood, watch TV online etc. I really feel for my competitors. We've certainly run off more than a few potential new customers because of our 6 gig limit. I'd love to see the bw and gig numbers for some of the other wisps in my area. I'll bet it's amazingly different. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: "Drew Lentz" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now, how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year. I wasn't trying to say "well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency space and put them up on the towers" .. What I am getting at is that opening these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that WILL be there. For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try and operate in. The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65 or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate properly. All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad switching equipment .. "well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!!" Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that supports as you said "high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks" .. But that is today. With innovation in communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment or innovation will not exist in the future. -drew On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, "Jack Unger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Drew, As I've mentioned before - wireless "physics" does not allow you to simply and affordably "build your network" for tomorrow but you do not yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless "physics" (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments that we have "WiMAX" in 3650 and future "White Space" and "opportunities to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point out, watching bandwidth needs so you can "know what's coming" and plan accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models. The exact opposite happens - marketing plans fail because the technology (the real-world PHYSICAL behavior) does not obey the marketing plan. There's nothing personal here - the PHYSICAL reality calls the shots and it always wins. For example, it doesn't matter that I want (and General Motors marketing plan may call for) a safe, five-passenger car that goes 200 MPH all day and gets 100 MPG up and down an unpaved bicycle trail through the Colorado Rockies along with 100 other cars simultaneously and costs only $3000 to buy. You and I both
Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email
Scottie, Has her connection always done this? If not, suspect spyware/virus. Give her the free AVG and run a winsock repair program like: (if using XP) http://files.snapfiles.com/localdl834/WinsockxpFix.exe , which has cured a multitude of problems for me, especially people who have teens that download junk. If this problem has always happened, try hard setting the ethernet speed in her PC instead of using the auto feature (assuming she's wired and not wireless with the wrt). I've seen some connections that would work partially if the auto feature was enabled. My Toshiba laptop will not talk to any CPE or cisco router over a cross-over cable unless I hard set the laptop's ethernet speed to 10megs. It works fine on 'auto' with consumer grade routers switches, however. Also, I've seen proxy servers, specifically squid 2.5, cause the partially loading picture problem. Do you have some kind of firewall system/proxy? Could there be some kind of timeout somewhere? Jason Steve Barnes wrote: There might be your answer. Outlook. Many outlook setups, if connecting to a Exchange server have allot different setting then a standard POP. If it is an exchange connection. I would recommend setting up a connection in your office and giving them 15 min free time on your net. Make sure it works there. Could be a SSL issue, They could be using a VPN for Exchange, Could be using non standard ports that you are inadvertently blocking, could be that their office made a change and did not tell everyone. Steve RC-WiFi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email That is the one thing I haven't tried. I would have to configure their Outlook settings on my laptop which includes installing Outlook itself... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:17 PM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I have saw spyware and/or trojans cause this. Been a PC technician about 6 times longer than a WISP. As much as it hurts, sometimes these things require a truckroll and a hookup of your clean laptop to prove it to the client. I think the original poster said there were more than one PC behind this connection...that doesn't mean they have not all visited the same location and picked up the same bug. I have 4 to 6 PC's running in my house at any one time, and I visit mostly the same sites on each. If you have exhausted all other possibilites, take your own machine and plug directly into your equipment and see what happens...you may have already done this, I have not followed the whole thread. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: "Marlon K. Schafer" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:56:16 -0800 I recently had a customer's system do that. Worked FINE with my laptop and his iphone. Was some very strange computer problem. I told them to take the machine to a shop. marlon - Original Message - From: "Josh Luthman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Customer issue - data stream halts, can't email I have a customer running behind a Trango 900 radio. She explains that many web pages (those heavy with images) never fully load and neither of her two email accounts work (using Outlook, the outgoing message just sits in the outbox). I have thousands of pings to this radio from the core router and only lost a few (99.99% returned). The customer is only there for a short time so it's difficult to get any worth while packet captures. They're currently on a Linksys WRT54g and I put in a MikroTik RB433 and 2.4 card - the issue remained. I have swapped both of the radios - AP and SU (as they're the only subscriber on this AP). Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy,
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
It needs a small channel width, or it uses a small channel width because that's the requirement for overseas, so we're stuck with it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:19 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Cc: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Travis, Im a little late responding to this thread, but I will put my two cents in. Currently there are products on the market that are shipping that deliver 15-20mb per AP but you wont find much in the wimax arena that will ever deliver more than 50 mb, due to the need to use a small channel width, even with 2X2 mimo. That being said, it doesnt mean that Wimax products are not at a level where you cannot support 250 subscribers per sector. On a legacy wifi product such as VL, Trango, etc the products do not have the benefits of the Wimax mac. At any rate, what you are talking about is the availablity of a Pico product, not a micro or macro. Companies like ours are working on PICO products but expect most to deliver Pico in 802.16e, and later on in the next year and a half or so. - Jeff Booher Director of Sales, North America www.apertonet.com http://www.apertonet.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Also a small channel width ensures you have a better receive sensitivity. -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:43 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? It needs a small channel width, or it uses a small channel width because that's the requirement for overseas, so we're stuck with it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:19 AM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Cc: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Travis, Im a little late responding to this thread, but I will put my two cents in. Currently there are products on the market that are shipping that deliver 15-20mb per AP but you wont find much in the wimax arena that will ever deliver more than 50 mb, due to the need to use a small channel width, even with 2X2 mimo. That being said, it doesnt mean that Wimax products are not at a level where you cannot support 250 subscribers per sector. On a legacy wifi product such as VL, Trango, etc the products do not have the benefits of the Wimax mac. At any rate, what you are talking about is the availablity of a Pico product, not a micro or macro. Companies like ours are working on PICO products but expect most to deliver Pico in 802.16e, and later on in the next year and a half or so. - Jeff Booher Director of Sales, North America www.apertonet.com http://www.apertonet.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 This email may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, reliance or distribution by others without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a value decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it today. There is a real gap in the products that are available on the market: At the bottom = Linksys Next = Mikrotik Next = Trango, Canopy, etc gap Top = licensed Alvarion, Redline, etc. This is the market that is not being served. There are plenty of backhaul solutions, router solutions, etc. but the very last mile AP/CPE for the higher end is what is missing. I'm not interested in paying $50,000 per base station (Alvarion WiMax), but I don't want to pay $10,000 for a solution that uses an entire band (Canopy 5700 for example) and only delivers 84Mbps of total capacity (when even lower end products can deliver 2x or 3x that in the same spectrum). So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last 2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal RD to focus on WiMax? Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mike Hammett wrote: Where has the innovation in the last few years gone?/rant How many in this industry bitch and moan over the cost of gear? How many would purchase an AP at under $200 and STILL think that's too high? How many in this industry are willing to purchase something JUST BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER? Look at how many people in this industry are using DSL as a transport to the Internet. Answer THOSE questions and you'll begin the see the answer to YOUR question. The problem isn't just us. The big boys have been busy trying to drive pricing levels down in an attempt to buy the market. And too many of us have decided that we have to compete on price alone, so we found ways to cut cost by buying cheaper gear (there are 2 WISPs within a 30 minute drive of my house that are selling service using Linksys gear for APs). There is at least 3 WISPs whose service would cover my house that have DSL for their internet connection. I'm not condemming the practice as much as I am attempting to illustrate WHY the innovation is leaving the industry. It is NOT gone. It just doesn't exist in the price range that MOST people are willing to pay (WISPs, that is). WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
Per month. Here's our tracking data. GREAT software from Brandon Checkaletts (sp???). radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack As you can see from the bottom, our average customer does 2 to 3 gigs per month. Toss out the servers and big business customers and a couple of high end resi users and it's much closer to 2 gigs than 3. It's gone up by a gig in the last 12 to 18 months though. marlon - Original Message - From: support To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information Marlon, 6 gig per month or 6 gig per day? Jason Marlon K. Schafer wrote: We have always had a per bit plan in place. Our speeds are as high as 10 meg on wireless and 100 on fiber. Yet our average user is down at 3 megs. Well, really below that as my tracking mechanism counts the servers and high end business users and it really shouldn't do that. We're still growing nicely and have lost very few customers due to usage issues over the years. Usually they are the ones that I really didn't want anyway. Sell one account and they build their own system that covers the entire neighborhood, watch TV online etc. I really feel for my competitors. We've certainly run off more than a few potential new customers because of our 6 gig limit. I'd love to see the bw and gig numbers for some of the other wisps in my area. I'll bet it's amazingly different. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information The point that I was getting at when this thread started about 24 hours ago was about having an all you can eat type service. As it stands right now, how many ISPs are offering plans of 768k or 1Mbps or 3 Mbps? This is not going to cut it in the future. This is not going to cut it next year. I wasn't trying to say well hell just buy more radios in the same frequency space and put them up on the towers .. What I am getting at is that opening these subs up and supplying the bandwidth they need is going to have to become a reality at some point. If the networks that are in place today cannot satisfy that need, there will be other networks in the future that WILL be there. For what they have done with the physics side of it (i.e. Modulation schemes, channel reuse, beam forming, etc.) technologies exist or are being worked on to milk everything out of that valuable spectrum that we all try and operate in. The cars on the bike trail is a perfect example .. Luckily whether its 3.65 or TVWS or the 700 MHz auctions, that spectrum is becoming available. The hope is that the operators that are around today see this and position or align themselves (because yes Charles, the cold reality does hit you pretty quiickly!) to take advantage of this as soon as they can. And that doesn't mean just for the distribution side of their network. The backhaul, the routing, the switching, all have to be in place for this to operate properly. All too often have a seen pieced together WISPS fail due to bad switching equipment .. well heck, this Netgear switch is only $59!! Jack, I truly appreciate your perspective on this and I completely understand the side of it you are coming from. True, the amount of unlicensed space that is out there currently will not hold a network that supports as you said high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks .. But that is today. With innovation in communications, as it has been proven time and again, where there's a will there's a way. Maybe the 5GHz spectrum can't hold what it needs to on its own, maybe there isnt a modulation scheme for stuffing more bits per hertz available today .. But that does not mean that multi-frequency equipment or innovation will not exist in the future. -drew On 11/25/08 1:01 AM, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Drew, As I've mentioned before - wireless physics does not allow you to simply and affordably build your network for tomorrow but you do not yet understand this point. No matter what the customer wants (or demands) and no matter how much the WISP wants to build a high-throughput network at a reasonable price, wireless physics (specifically the lack of available spectrum) prevents this. With limited spectrum (which is what we have today in spite of the arguments that we have WiMAX in 3650 and future White Space and opportunities to partner with licensed carriers) WISPs can not build high-throughput, high-reliability, moderate-cost, non-interfering networks that serve a lot of customers without having access to more spectrum. As you point out, watching bandwidth needs so you can know what's coming and plan accordingly is important but you can not make physics (that's what happens in the REAL world) bend to your business and marketing models. The
