Re: [WISPA] McDonalds

2007-09-05 Thread Blake Bowers

Look out in the parking lot.

You can buy anything, and get access at no charge.  I sit in my vehicle
and check my emails real quick, and head on down the road.


- Original Message - 
From: Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] McDonalds



Has anyone observed how much Mcdonalds hotspots are being used? Im yet to
see anyone in the dinning room with a laptop at the ones I go to. Seems like
it would be a good place for the cops to do reports or salesmen to do
orders. Coffee is cheap too. On the other hand the majority of the coffee
houses where I have my internet machines there is standing room only. And
every table has a laptop open connected to my A/P there. Joe




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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Re: [WISPA] McDonalds

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett
How's that?  I've purchased from McDonalds before, but didn't see anything 
on the hotspot page that would indicate paid users go here to prove you 
purchased.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Blake Bowers [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] McDonalds



Look out in the parking lot.

You can buy anything, and get access at no charge.  I sit in my vehicle
and check my emails real quick, and head on down the road.


- Original Message - 
From: Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] McDonalds



Has anyone observed how much Mcdonalds hotspots are being used? Im yet to
see anyone in the dinning room with a laptop at the ones I go to. Seems 
like

it would be a good place for the cops to do reports or salesmen to do
orders. Coffee is cheap too. On the other hand the majority of the coffee
houses where I have my internet machines there is standing room only. And
every table has a laptop open connected to my A/P there. Joe




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] McDonalds

2007-09-05 Thread Blake Bowers

The times I have used it, I ask when I make the
purchase for access.  I normally just buy a DDP,
and they give me a printed slip that has the
user id and password.


- Original Message - 
From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] McDonalds


How's that?  I've purchased from McDonalds before, but didn't see anything 
on the hotspot page that would indicate paid users go here to prove you 
purchased.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Blake Bowers [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] McDonalds



Look out in the parking lot.

You can buy anything, and get access at no charge.  I sit in my vehicle
and check my emails real quick, and head on down the road.


- Original Message - 
From: Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] McDonalds



Has anyone observed how much Mcdonalds hotspots are being used? Im yet to
see anyone in the dinning room with a laptop at the ones I go to. Seems 
like

it would be a good place for the cops to do reports or salesmen to do
orders. Coffee is cheap too. On the other hand the majority of the coffee
houses where I have my internet machines there is standing room only. And
every table has a laptop open connected to my A/P there. Joe




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] McDonalds

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett
oh, okay.  So I have to tell them when I purchase that I want to use it. 
Gotcha.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Blake Bowers [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] McDonalds



The times I have used it, I ask when I make the
purchase for access.  I normally just buy a DDP,
and they give me a printed slip that has the
user id and password.


- Original Message - 
From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] McDonalds


How's that?  I've purchased from McDonalds before, but didn't see 
anything on the hotspot page that would indicate paid users go here to 
prove you purchased.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Blake Bowers [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] McDonalds



Look out in the parking lot.

You can buy anything, and get access at no charge.  I sit in my vehicle
and check my emails real quick, and head on down the road.


- Original Message - 
From: Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] McDonalds



Has anyone observed how much Mcdonalds hotspots are being used? Im yet 
to
see anyone in the dinning room with a laptop at the ones I go to. Seems 
like

it would be a good place for the cops to do reports or salesmen to do
orders. Coffee is cheap too. On the other hand the majority of the 
coffee
houses where I have my internet machines there is standing room only. 
And

every table has a laptop open connected to my A/P there. Joe




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
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[WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett
My upstream isn't very routing friendly.  They're also having some issues, but 
I believe they'll have it figured out soon.  A VPN over their network solves 
all the current issues.

Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change their 
whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough where I imagine 
that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over their network so I can do 
BGP.

Thoughts?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Clint Ricker
What do you mean by not routing friendly?  Do you mean that they don't
provide BGP peering?  Or, that they just don't really know what they are
doing...

Unless you have multiple upstream connections, there is (rarely) any reason
to do BGP peering yourself.  If you have your own ARIN block, most upstream
providers will announce it for you and route the traffic accordingly.

Where are/would you be doing the VPN?  This is an expensive route, since it
does mean that you are paying twice for traffic--once through your upstream
provider, again through the VPN endpoint (depending on your routing this
could actually be triple).  Especially given that you seem to be in close
proximity to Chicago, your best value / option is likely to get Internet
access in a data center and then get some sort of loop without Internet from
the data center to your network...  Most likely some sort of metro-ethernet
product is usually the most cost effective if you're dealing with 100Mb/s or
more, smaller connections change the economics drastically...

Clint Ricker
-Kentnis Tecnologies


On 9/5/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 My upstream isn't very routing friendly.  They're also having some issues,
 but I believe they'll have it figured out soon.  A VPN over their network
 solves all the current issues.

 Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change
 their whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough where
 I imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over their
 network so I can do BGP.

 Thoughts?


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com


 

 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
 ISPCON **
 ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
 ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
 ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
 ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
 http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/

 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



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** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread David E. Smith

Mike Hammett wrote:


Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change
their whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough
where I imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over
their network so I can do BGP.


So you have your own direct IP allocation from ARIN, but no way to 
connect it to the rest of the Internet?


Unless and until you talk with their upstream, it's all academic. 
They'll have to peer with you, and probably talk to everyone they peer 
with (to get route filters updated and so forth).


Unless you have really complex network needs, or you're multihomed, 
there's not much benefit to running your own BGP peer. Have you 
considered just asking your immediate upstream to do your BGP 
announcements for you under their ASN? (I assume they're already running 
BGP for their own network. If not, things get even more weird and 
complicated.)


The tunnel your whole network through a VPN option would probably 
work, but you'll need a lot of CPU, depending on how big your network is.


David Smith
MVN.net


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett

They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it.

I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second upstream 
for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP provides.  I don't yet 
have my own block as I can't yet justify something that big.


I would have to work out the details with how its done with my provider and 
his provider.  I'm just out to see if its a viable option.  I certainly 
wouldn't want to pay for anything twice.  I envision the VPN endpoint being 
at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my endpoint and my 
network is my immediate upstream's network.


I am currently pretty small and am getting a great deal from my upstream 
(aside from the lack of routing).  I am outside of the Chicago metro area. 
I am looking at building fiber into the CO to tie in with other providers as 
my secondary route.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering



What do you mean by not routing friendly?  Do you mean that they don't
provide BGP peering?  Or, that they just don't really know what they are
doing...

Unless you have multiple upstream connections, there is (rarely) any 
reason
to do BGP peering yourself.  If you have your own ARIN block, most 
upstream

providers will announce it for you and route the traffic accordingly.

Where are/would you be doing the VPN?  This is an expensive route, since 
it
does mean that you are paying twice for traffic--once through your 
upstream

provider, again through the VPN endpoint (depending on your routing this
could actually be triple).  Especially given that you seem to be in close
proximity to Chicago, your best value / option is likely to get Internet
access in a data center and then get some sort of loop without Internet 
from
the data center to your network...  Most likely some sort of 
metro-ethernet
product is usually the most cost effective if you're dealing with 100Mb/s 
or

more, smaller connections change the economics drastically...

Clint Ricker
-Kentnis Tecnologies


On 9/5/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


My upstream isn't very routing friendly.  They're also having some 
issues,

but I believe they'll have it figured out soon.  A VPN over their network
solves all the current issues.

Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change
their whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough 
where

I imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over their
network so I can do BGP.

Thoughts?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett

Imagestream routers have a lot of beef.  ;-)


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering



Mike Hammett wrote:


Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change
their whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough
where I imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over
their network so I can do BGP.


So you have your own direct IP allocation from ARIN, but no way to connect 
it to the rest of the Internet?


Unless and until you talk with their upstream, it's all academic. They'll 
have to peer with you, and probably talk to everyone they peer with (to 
get route filters updated and so forth).


Unless you have really complex network needs, or you're multihomed, 
there's not much benefit to running your own BGP peer. Have you considered 
just asking your immediate upstream to do your BGP announcements for you 
under their ASN? (I assume they're already running BGP for their own 
network. If not, things get even more weird and complicated.)


The tunnel your whole network through a VPN option would probably work, 
but you'll need a lot of CPU, depending on how big your network is.


David Smith
MVN.net


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Matt Liotta

Mike Hammett wrote:

They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it.

That doesn't make any sense. If you are buying DIA then they need to 
route everywhere.


I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second 
upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP 
provides.  I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify 
something that big.


While you do get redundancy out of BGP you don't necessarily get 
increased performance. Depending on who you BGP peer with you could 
actually decrease your performance if you don't know what you are doing.


I'm not sure what kind of great deal you have worked out, but if your 
upstream isn't routing you correctly then it might not be a worthwhile deal.


-Matt


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread David E. Smith

Mike Hammett wrote:

They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it.


They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is 
one big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep.


If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want 
to BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you 
have your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position.


I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second 
upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP 
provides.  I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify 
something that big.


As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't 
be a problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to 
either be multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty 
days, to get an ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty 
of paperwork ready.)


Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable to 
get a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means 
renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it 
needs to be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 
(four /24s, or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal.


I 
certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice.  I envision the VPN 
endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my 
endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network.


Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with 
double-billed traffic.


Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their 
upstream (and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all 
connected. One of your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in 
from the rest of the Internet, through that switch, to your VPN box 
(there's one trip), gets VPN'd up, goes back out through that switch 
(second trip), and across the switch to your immediate upstream (there's 
a third trip).


If you can get it wired up in parallel with your upstream, so it comes 
in through that switch and goes out to your upstream, you may be able to 
avoid that kind of double-billing, assuming you're billed by the bit for 
traffic in the first place. Of course, if they were clever enough to do 
that, they'd probably also be clever enough to handle BGP natively and 
you wouldn't have to do this whole VPN song-and-dance routine. :)


David Smith
MVN.net


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett
There is no routing at all anywhere on their network.  It's a single 
broadcast domain with a single router at their upstream.  Their upstream 
does have internal routing.


I can obviously route through to the Internet if I'm posting here.

My upstream's upstream has AboveNet and recently added ATT.  One of the 
upstreams I'm looking at has Verizon and Level(3).  I would hire someone to 
tune the BGP settings for optimal performance, price, reliability, etc.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering



Mike Hammett wrote:

They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it.

That doesn't make any sense. If you are buying DIA then they need to route 
everywhere.


I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second 
upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP provides. 
I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify something that big.


While you do get redundancy out of BGP you don't necessarily get increased 
performance. Depending on who you BGP peer with you could actually 
decrease your performance if you don't know what you are doing.


I'm not sure what kind of great deal you have worked out, but if your 
upstream isn't routing you correctly then it might not be a worthwhile 
deal.


-Matt


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RE: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's
provider's NOC?

Jeff 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

Mike Hammett wrote:
 They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it.

They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is one
big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep.

If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want to
BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you have
your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position.

 I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second 
 upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP 
 provides.  I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify 
 something that big.

As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't be a
problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either be
multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get an
ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork ready.)

Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable to get
a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means
renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it needs to
be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four /24s,
or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal.

 I
 certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice.  I envision the VPN 
 endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my 
 endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network.

Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with
double-billed traffic.

Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their upstream
(and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. One of
your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in from the rest of the
Internet, through that switch, to your VPN box (there's one trip), gets
VPN'd up, goes back out through that switch (second trip), and across the
switch to your immediate upstream (there's a third trip).

If you can get it wired up in parallel with your upstream, so it comes in
through that switch and goes out to your upstream, you may be able to avoid
that kind of double-billing, assuming you're billed by the bit for traffic
in the first place. Of course, if they were clever enough to do that, they'd
probably also be clever enough to handle BGP natively and you wouldn't have
to do this whole VPN song-and-dance routine. :)

David Smith
MVN.net



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
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** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Clint Ricker
Call me stupid, but, don't screw around with your upstream.  Get good
reliable connections, don't get fancier than you have to, don't bother with
VPNs, etc...

If you want to save money and you have scale (minumum 10-25Mb/s, 100Mb/s
definitely), get the bandwidth directly from a carrier and supply your own
pipes.  But, go with a good carrier and get a good pipe.

If smaller, at least get good upstream providers.  I can't imagine a cost
cheap enough to entice me to start jerryrigging the connection that I'm
relying on for my entire customer base

You spend too much time and money building your network and your customer
base to kill it over a few hundred a month.  If you're too strapped for cash
to get good connections, spend the time growing revenue (ie
sales/marketing) rather than cutting costs...

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technology


On 9/5/07, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's
 provider's NOC?

 Jeff

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of David E. Smith
 Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

 Mike Hammett wrote:
  They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it.

 They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is one
 big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep.

 If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want to
 BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you have
 your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position.

  I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second
  upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP
  provides.  I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify
  something that big.

 As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't be
 a
 problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either be
 multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get an
 ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork
 ready.)

 Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable to
 get
 a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means
 renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it needs
 to
 be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four
 /24s,
 or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal.

  I
  certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice.  I envision the VPN
  endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my
  endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network.

 Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with
 double-billed traffic.

 Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their upstream
 (and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. One of
 your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in from the rest of the
 Internet, through that switch, to your VPN box (there's one trip), gets
 VPN'd up, goes back out through that switch (second trip), and across the
 switch to your immediate upstream (there's a third trip).

 If you can get it wired up in parallel with your upstream, so it comes in
 through that switch and goes out to your upstream, you may be able to
 avoid
 that kind of double-billing, assuming you're billed by the bit for traffic
 in the first place. Of course, if they were clever enough to do that,
 they'd
 probably also be clever enough to handle BGP natively and you wouldn't
 have
 to do this whole VPN song-and-dance routine. :)

 David Smith
 MVN.net

 
 

 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
 ISPCON **
 ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
 ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
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 ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
 ISPCON **
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[WISPA] Spectrum Analyzer Picture of Motorola Canopy Signal

2007-09-05 Thread Jack Unger
By any chance does anyone have a spectrum analyzer picture of the signal 
from a 900 MHz Motorola canopy system?


Thanks,
   jack

--
Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
FCC License # PG-12-25133
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs
True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers
Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com






** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett
I suppose another idea is to just have both routers on that same flat 
network.  One is on my tower and the other in my provider's demarc with his 
upstream.  I get an IP block from the upstream through my provider and carve 
out a /30 out of that to link both of my routers.  Not knowing where\how my 
upstream rate limits makes planning where\how to place my router difficult.


The VPN idea came from the fact that I wouldn't have to worry about keeping 
both routers on the same broadcast domain.  I would then pass through 
existing rate-limiting equipment, etc.


I guess I really wouldn't know until I sat down with them to hammer this 
out.


Until I'm ready for BGP, I suppose this also could be used to pass through 
IP blocks without having to change anything on my provider.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 9:41 AM
Subject: [WISPA] BGP Engineering


My upstream isn't very routing friendly.  They're also having some issues, 
but I believe they'll have it figured out soon.  A VPN over their network 
solves all the current issues.


Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change their 
whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough where I 
imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over their network 
so I can do BGP.


Thoughts?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett

$150 for a meg, though I've routinely hit 5 or 6 megs.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering



Call me stupid, but, don't screw around with your upstream.  Get good
reliable connections, don't get fancier than you have to, don't bother 
with

VPNs, etc...

If you want to save money and you have scale (minumum 10-25Mb/s, 100Mb/s
definitely), get the bandwidth directly from a carrier and supply your own
pipes.  But, go with a good carrier and get a good pipe.

If smaller, at least get good upstream providers.  I can't imagine a cost
cheap enough to entice me to start jerryrigging the connection that I'm
relying on for my entire customer base

You spend too much time and money building your network and your customer
base to kill it over a few hundred a month.  If you're too strapped for 
cash

to get good connections, spend the time growing revenue (ie
sales/marketing) rather than cutting costs...

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technology


On 9/5/07, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's
provider's NOC?

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

Mike Hammett wrote:
 They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it.

They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is one
big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep.

If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want to
BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you have
your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position.

 I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second
 upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP
 provides.  I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify
 something that big.

As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't be
a
problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either be
multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get an
ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork
ready.)

Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable to
get
a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means
renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it needs
to
be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four
/24s,
or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal.

 I
 certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice.  I envision the VPN
 endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my
 endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network.

Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with
double-billed traffic.

Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their 
upstream
(and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. One 
of

your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in from the rest of the
Internet, through that switch, to your VPN box (there's one trip), gets
VPN'd up, goes back out through that switch (second trip), and across the
switch to your immediate upstream (there's a third trip).

If you can get it wired up in parallel with your upstream, so it comes in
through that switch and goes out to your upstream, you may be able to
avoid
that kind of double-billing, assuming you're billed by the bit for 
traffic

in the first place. Of course, if they were clever enough to do that,
they'd
probably also be clever enough to handle BGP natively and you wouldn't
have
to do this whole VPN song-and-dance routine. :)

David Smith
MVN.net




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **




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** 

[WISPA] Looking for an engineer

2007-09-05 Thread David Peterson
I am looking to rent short term a competent engineer in the Andover, MA area.  
Hit me offlist.

David


WirelessGuys
David Peterson
Senior Wireless Engineer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
207 W. Los Angeles Avenue, Suite 300
Moorpark, CA 93021-1862
tel: 800-945-3294 ext 102
mobile: 979.224.4192
AIM: ultramesh inc
Skype ID:nexuswirelessusa



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(or authorized to receive for the recipient) you are hereby 
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or its contents is prohibited. If you have received this communication in 
error, please destroy all copies of this communication and any 
attachments and contact the sender by reply email or telephone (800) 945-3294. 



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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Clint Ricker
So, about $750-$900 per month?

Anyone on the list have a POP in Chicago to share bandwidth (and bandwidth
costs!) with Mike?

You may want to call around again on that.  You can definitely get a quad
bonded T1 up there, I'd imagine for about $1,200 a month; if you have any
good metro E providers, you can probably get 5 megs for about $800 or so
that would be a lot more accomidating than your current setup.

What's the address and npa/nxx of your pop?

Thanks,
-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies



On 9/5/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 $150 for a meg, though I've routinely hit 5 or 6 megs.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com


 - Original Message -
 From: Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:00 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering


  Call me stupid, but, don't screw around with your upstream.  Get good
  reliable connections, don't get fancier than you have to, don't bother
  with
  VPNs, etc...
 
  If you want to save money and you have scale (minumum 10-25Mb/s, 100Mb/s
  definitely), get the bandwidth directly from a carrier and supply your
 own
  pipes.  But, go with a good carrier and get a good pipe.
 
  If smaller, at least get good upstream providers.  I can't imagine a
 cost
  cheap enough to entice me to start jerryrigging the connection that I'm
  relying on for my entire customer base
 
  You spend too much time and money building your network and your
 customer
  base to kill it over a few hundred a month.  If you're too strapped for
  cash
  to get good connections, spend the time growing revenue (ie
  sales/marketing) rather than cutting costs...
 
  -Clint Ricker
  Kentnis Technology
 
 
  On 9/5/07, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's
  provider's NOC?
 
  Jeff
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of David E. Smith
  Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
 
  Mike Hammett wrote:
   They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it.
 
  They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is
 one
  big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep.
 
  If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want
 to
  BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you
 have
  your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position.
 
   I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second
   upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP
   provides.  I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify
   something that big.
 
  As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't
 be
  a
  problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either
 be
  multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get
 an
  ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork
  ready.)
 
  Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable to
  get
  a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means
  renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it
 needs
  to
  be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four
  /24s,
  or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal.
 
   I
   certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice.  I envision the
 VPN
   endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between
 my
   endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network.
 
  Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with
  double-billed traffic.
 
  Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their
  upstream
  (and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. One
  of
  your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in from the rest of
 the
  Internet, through that switch, to your VPN box (there's one trip),
 gets
  VPN'd up, goes back out through that switch (second trip), and across
 the
  switch to your immediate upstream (there's a third trip).
 
  If you can get it wired up in parallel with your upstream, so it comes
 in
  through that switch and goes out to your upstream, you may be able to
  avoid
  that kind of double-billing, assuming you're billed by the bit for
  traffic
  in the first place. Of course, if they were clever enough to do that,
  they'd
  probably also be clever enough to handle BGP natively and you wouldn't
  have
  to do this whole VPN song-and-dance routine. :)
 
  David Smith
  MVN.net
 
 
 
  
 
  ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007
 at
  ISPCON **
  ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com 

Re: [WISPA] Spectrum Analyzer Picture of Motorola Canopy Signal

2007-09-05 Thread Jack Unger

Thanks Eric!

jack


Eric Muehleisen wrote:

Here ya go

-Eric

Jack Unger wrote:
By any chance does anyone have a spectrum analyzer picture of the 
signal from a 900 MHz Motorola canopy system?


Thanks,
   jack










** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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--
Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
FCC License # PG-12-25133
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs
True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers
Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com






** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Reverse DNS troubles

2007-09-05 Thread Japhy Bartlett
Like some other people pointed out, a VPS with it's own IP is
something like.. $45/ mo.

All you have to do is set your email server to forward through a VPS
mail server, and setup the reverse DNS for the VPS.  Check out
linode.com, or any of the other bajillion companies that provide that
service.


And to hijack this a bit:

I've got four domains hosted on a box with one IP - is it even
possible to set up a reverse DNS so that one IP will return multiple
(or the correct at any given request) domains?

I'm having the same problem, with spam filters rejecting some emails,
because the reverse DNS for the IP doesn't return the right domain.
Or does anyone know of a cheap way to buy extra IP addresses?

Cheers,
J

On 9/4/07, Ryan Langseth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Since you are on their network, I would simply relay the email
 through their server,  the lookup will be sent through for server
 which should have a proper rDNS, you may need to set an SPF record
 for the mail server, but that should work  ( I have done it like that
 on a dynamic IP before)


 On Sep 4, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Jason wrote:

  I was afraid of that.  These satellite guys are kind of like an
  onion.  There are layers and layers where no one is sure who to
  work with or where to go.
 
  The ip address space is owned by a company that is three or four
  layers up in the reseller chain (I'm told that they own the dish on
  the other end).
 
  Is there no work-around (like the dynamic ip guys or something)?  I
  hate to get that cheesy anyway
 
  Can you tell I'm desperate?!
 
  Jason
 
  Mark Nash wrote:
  You must deal with whoever is authoritative in that address space,
  probably your immediate upstream provider. Mark Nash
  UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://
  www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message
  - From: Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA
  General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 04,
  2007 11:37 AM Subject: [WISPA] Reverse DNS troubles
  Gang, I have started having trouble with my customers email
  getting bounced because other servers are checking the reverse
  dns, which fails to resolve to my domain because my network is
  served by a satellite connection (I'm the epitome of rural). Does
  anyone know of a work-around, or do I have to convince my
  upstream they need to change it to resolve to my domain (which
  may be hard to get to happen.). If I have to work with my
  upstream, how should I go about this / approach it. FYI, they are
  ses-americom.com. The company I purchased the domain through and
  who handles the regular dns lookup (domain to ip) says they can
  not help me because the IP is not in their IP address space.
  Jason
  
  --
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  ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th
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Re: [WISPA] Reverse DNS troubles

2007-09-05 Thread Clint Ricker

 And to hijack this a bit:

 I've got four domains hosted on a box with one IP - is it even
 possible to set up a reverse DNS so that one IP will return multiple
 (or the correct at any given request) domains?


No.

However, remember that MX and SMTP don't have to actually have anything
relating to the domain involved.  So, give the box the name 
hosting.nolimyn.com or something similar, setup the RDNS for the IP address
for hosting.nolimyn.com.

Then, on your other domains, set smtp.domainx.com as a cname for
hosting.nolimyn.com and set the mx record for domainx.com to
hosting.nolimyn.com.


 I'm having the same problem, with spam filters rejecting some emails,
 because the reverse DNS for the IP doesn't return the right domain.
 Or does anyone know of a cheap way to buy extra IP addresses?


That is generally up to your hosting/network provider...However, I can
provide you some extra IP addresses for fairly cheap; contact me off list if
interested.

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies








 Cheers,
 J

 On 9/4/07, Ryan Langseth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Since you are on their network, I would simply relay the email
  through their server,  the lookup will be sent through for server
  which should have a proper rDNS, you may need to set an SPF record
  for the mail server, but that should work  ( I have done it like that
  on a dynamic IP before)
 
 
  On Sep 4, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Jason wrote:
 
   I was afraid of that.  These satellite guys are kind of like an
   onion.  There are layers and layers where no one is sure who to
   work with or where to go.
  
   The ip address space is owned by a company that is three or four
   layers up in the reseller chain (I'm told that they own the dish on
   the other end).
  
   Is there no work-around (like the dynamic ip guys or something)?  I
   hate to get that cheesy anyway
  
   Can you tell I'm desperate?!
  
   Jason
  
   Mark Nash wrote:
   You must deal with whoever is authoritative in that address space,
   probably your immediate upstream provider. Mark Nash
   UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://
   www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message
   - From: Jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA
   General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 04,
   2007 11:37 AM Subject: [WISPA] Reverse DNS troubles
   Gang, I have started having trouble with my customers email
   getting bounced because other servers are checking the reverse
   dns, which fails to resolve to my domain because my network is
   served by a satellite connection (I'm the epitome of rural). Does
   anyone know of a work-around, or do I have to convince my
   upstream they need to change it to resolve to my domain (which
   may be hard to get to happen.). If I have to work with my
   upstream, how should I go about this / approach it. FYI, they are
   ses-americom.com. The company I purchased the domain through and
   who handles the regular dns lookup (domain to ip) says they can
   not help me because the IP is not in their IP address space.
   Jason
   
   --
   --
   ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th
   2007 at
   ISPCON **
   ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com
   ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events
   Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7
   when you register online at
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   --- ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on
   October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October
   16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY
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   31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett

No, $150 total for 1 meg, I burst to 5 or 6 megs often.

I can get a single T1 with a 3 year commit for $517...   several times more 
than the $150 now I pay for 1 meg bursting to 5 or 6.  2xT1 is $1011, 3xT1 
is $1490, 4xT1 is $1860.


One of the things on my plate is getting fiber built into the tandem CO in 
town where a dozen carriers exist.  Last quote I got from an alternate 
provider was (IP only) $360 for 3 years for 3 megs burstable to 9 megs.  Now 
that requires me to become a CLEC and build fiber into the CO, but the costs 
for that provide a whole lot more opportunity and are much better long term 
than those outrageous T1 fees ($1330 per month at a 6 meg commit goes a long 
way to paying back the investment in the project).


110 South First St.
815-909


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering



So, about $750-$900 per month?

Anyone on the list have a POP in Chicago to share bandwidth (and bandwidth
costs!) with Mike?

You may want to call around again on that.  You can definitely get a quad
bonded T1 up there, I'd imagine for about $1,200 a month; if you have any
good metro E providers, you can probably get 5 megs for about $800 or so
that would be a lot more accomidating than your current setup.

What's the address and npa/nxx of your pop?

Thanks,
-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies



On 9/5/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


$150 for a meg, though I've routinely hit 5 or 6 megs.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message -
From: Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering


 Call me stupid, but, don't screw around with your upstream.  Get good
 reliable connections, don't get fancier than you have to, don't bother
 with
 VPNs, etc...

 If you want to save money and you have scale (minumum 10-25Mb/s, 
 100Mb/s

 definitely), get the bandwidth directly from a carrier and supply your
own
 pipes.  But, go with a good carrier and get a good pipe.

 If smaller, at least get good upstream providers.  I can't imagine a
cost
 cheap enough to entice me to start jerryrigging the connection that I'm
 relying on for my entire customer base

 You spend too much time and money building your network and your
customer
 base to kill it over a few hundred a month.  If you're too strapped for
 cash
 to get good connections, spend the time growing revenue (ie
 sales/marketing) rather than cutting costs...

 -Clint Ricker
 Kentnis Technology


 On 9/5/07, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's
 provider's NOC?

 Jeff

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On

 Behalf Of David E. Smith
 Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

 Mike Hammett wrote:
  They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it.

 They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is
one
 big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep.

 If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want
to
 BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you
have
 your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position.

  I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second
  upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP
  provides.  I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify
  something that big.

 As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't
be
 a
 problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either
be
 multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get
an
 ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork
 ready.)

 Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable 
 to

 get
 a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means
 renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it
needs
 to
 be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four
 /24s,
 or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal.

  I
  certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice.  I envision the
VPN
  endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between
my
  endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network.

 Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with
 double-billed traffic.

 Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their
 upstream
 (and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. 
 One

 of
 your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in 

Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett

oh yeah, in DeKalb, IL 60115


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering



So, about $750-$900 per month?

Anyone on the list have a POP in Chicago to share bandwidth (and bandwidth
costs!) with Mike?

You may want to call around again on that.  You can definitely get a quad
bonded T1 up there, I'd imagine for about $1,200 a month; if you have any
good metro E providers, you can probably get 5 megs for about $800 or so
that would be a lot more accomidating than your current setup.

What's the address and npa/nxx of your pop?

Thanks,
-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies



On 9/5/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


$150 for a meg, though I've routinely hit 5 or 6 megs.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message -
From: Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering


 Call me stupid, but, don't screw around with your upstream.  Get good
 reliable connections, don't get fancier than you have to, don't bother
 with
 VPNs, etc...

 If you want to save money and you have scale (minumum 10-25Mb/s, 
 100Mb/s

 definitely), get the bandwidth directly from a carrier and supply your
own
 pipes.  But, go with a good carrier and get a good pipe.

 If smaller, at least get good upstream providers.  I can't imagine a
cost
 cheap enough to entice me to start jerryrigging the connection that I'm
 relying on for my entire customer base

 You spend too much time and money building your network and your
customer
 base to kill it over a few hundred a month.  If you're too strapped for
 cash
 to get good connections, spend the time growing revenue (ie
 sales/marketing) rather than cutting costs...

 -Clint Ricker
 Kentnis Technology


 On 9/5/07, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's
 provider's NOC?

 Jeff

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On

 Behalf Of David E. Smith
 Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

 Mike Hammett wrote:
  They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it.

 They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is
one
 big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep.

 If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want
to
 BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you
have
 your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position.

  I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second
  upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP
  provides.  I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify
  something that big.

 As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't
be
 a
 problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either
be
 multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get
an
 ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork
 ready.)

 Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable 
 to

 get
 a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means
 renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it
needs
 to
 be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four
 /24s,
 or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal.

  I
  certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice.  I envision the
VPN
  endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between
my
  endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network.

 Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with
 double-billed traffic.

 Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their
 upstream
 (and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. 
 One

 of
 your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in from the rest of
the
 Internet, through that switch, to your VPN box (there's one trip),
gets
 VPN'd up, goes back out through that switch (second trip), and across
the
 switch to your immediate upstream (there's a third trip).

 If you can get it wired up in parallel with your upstream, so it comes
in
 through that switch and goes out to your upstream, you may be able to
 avoid
 that kind of double-billing, assuming you're billed by the bit for
 traffic
 in the first place. Of course, if they were clever enough to do that,
 they'd
 probably also be clever enough to handle BGP natively and you wouldn't
 have
 to do this whole VPN song-and-dance routine. :)

 David Smith
 MVN.net



Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering

2007-09-05 Thread Matt Liotta
I don't know; it seems like you are trying to solve the wrong set of 
problems. Why not just build a business model based on paying T1 
pricing? This will allow you to get your business rolling now without 
routing worries like you currently have. Further, you can bond more T1s 
as your needs grow. When you get sufficient size you can justify going a 
different direction and possibly even save money. Again, if you have a 
business model based on T1 pricing then cheaper bandwidth down the road 
will only help.


-Matt

Mike Hammett wrote:

No, $150 total for 1 meg, I burst to 5 or 6 megs often.

I can get a single T1 with a 3 year commit for $517...   several times 
more than the $150 now I pay for 1 meg bursting to 5 or 6.  2xT1 is 
$1011, 3xT1 is $1490, 4xT1 is $1860.


One of the things on my plate is getting fiber built into the tandem CO 
in town where a dozen carriers exist.  Last quote I got from an 
alternate provider was (IP only) $360 for 3 years for 3 megs burstable 
to 9 megs.  Now that requires me to become a CLEC and build fiber into 
the CO, but the costs for that provide a whole lot more opportunity and 
are much better long term than those outrageous T1 fees ($1330 per month 
at a 6 meg commit goes a long way to paying back the investment in the 
project).


110 South First St.
815-909


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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[WISPA] Merchant Services

2007-09-05 Thread Mike Hammett
I'm speaking to my bank as well as looking at QuickBooks and PayPal for 
merchant services (CC processing).  Opinions?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] Merchant Services

2007-09-05 Thread Scott Reed
I use Authorize.net as the front-end for my automated billing and 
Cornerstone does the processing.

Quick, lots of options, decent cost, good support.

Mike Hammett wrote:

I'm speaking to my bank as well as looking at QuickBooks and PayPal for 
merchant services (CC processing).  Opinions?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Owner
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Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
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Re: [WISPA] Merchant Services

2007-09-05 Thread J. Vogel


Mike Hammett wrote:
 I'm speaking to my bank as well as looking at QuickBooks and PayPal for 
 merchant services (CC processing).  Opinions?



   
I have been using e-onlinedata/authorize.net for a couple of years
and have been very happy with them. They have a lower rate for
ISPs and webhosts than for some other types of accounts, so you
want to look at that specific page... cheaper than QB, with more
options.

http://e-onlinedata.com/merchantaccounts/hostisp.php

-- 

John Vogel - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.vogent.net   620-754-3907
Vogel Enterprises, LLC
Information Services Provider serving S.E. Kansas


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Merchant Services

2007-09-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

I go through my local bank.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 4:29 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Merchant Services


I'm speaking to my bank as well as looking at QuickBooks and PayPal for 
merchant services (CC processing).  Opinions?



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

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**
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[WISPA] [Fwd: [wireless]Emerald Incident #57098 for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (1 Wireless Conn)]

2007-09-05 Thread John Scrivner

Guys,
How did we lose this account? Is our service so bad in Bonnie that 
satellite is a better option? This is not a rhetorical question. I want 
to know how we could lose this account.

Scriv


 Original Message 
Subject: 	[wireless]Emerald Incident #57098 for [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
(1 Wireless Conn)

Date:   Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:41:02 -0600
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Type: Wireless Problem

Please disconnect Bonnie Post Office/Barbara Fetch, they have went with 
Satellite





begin:vcard
fn:John Scrivner
n:Scrivner;John
org:Mt. Vernon. Net, Inc.
adr;dom:PO Box 1582;;1 Dr Park Road Suite H1;Mt. Vernon;Il;62864
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:President
tel;work:618-244-6868
url:http://www.mvn.net/
version:2.1
end:vcard



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**
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Re: [WISPA] [Fwd: [wireless]Emerald Incident #57098 for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (1 Wireless Conn)]

2007-09-05 Thread Travis Johnson

Um... maybe they didn't like you leaving the list? :)

ducking and hiding

Travis
Microserv

John Scrivner wrote:

Guys,
How did we lose this account? Is our service so bad in Bonnie that 
satellite is a better option? This is not a rhetorical question. I 
want to know how we could lose this account.

Scriv


 Original Message 
Subject: [wireless]Emerald Incident #57098 for 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (1 Wireless Conn)

Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:41:02 -0600
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Type: Wireless Problem

Please disconnect Bonnie Post Office/Barbara Fetch, they have went 
with Satellite








** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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**
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Re: [WISPA] [Fwd: [wireless]Emerald Incident #57098 for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (1 Wireless Conn)]

2007-09-05 Thread JohnnyO
John - Sir - I am sorry - this was all my fault. My dog got killed the 
morning the Post Office called in with trouble. When I finished scraping the 
puppy off of the road, my hamster came down with pink eye and I had to see 
to it he was brought into the vet for quick care.


DOH ! - John - cut back on the booze :)

JohnnyO

- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Cc: Dan Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:17 PM
Subject: [WISPA] [Fwd: [wireless]Emerald Incident #57098 for 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (1 Wireless Conn)]




Guys,
How did we lose this account? Is our service so bad in Bonnie that
satellite is a better option? This is not a rhetorical question. I want
to know how we could lose this account.
Scriv


 Original Message 
Subject: [wireless]Emerald Incident #57098 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(1 Wireless Conn)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:41:02 -0600
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Type: Wireless Problem

Please disconnect Bonnie Post Office/Barbara Fetch, they have went with 
Satellite
















** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] Merchant Services

2007-09-05 Thread D. Ryan Spott
BofA resells Cybersource. I find the subscription interface to be a  
GREAT method of billing customers. I just set them up as a monthly  
bill @ whatever amount with whatever the setup fee is.


The system bills the customer for you each month and emails them an  
invoice that you can customize. It also emails the customer when  
their card is about to expire.


I check the system once a month or so to see what customers cards  
have expired or failed.


The best part is that I don't have to store any credit cards onsite.  
This reduces my liability and places it in BofAs hands.


ryan

On Sep 5, 2007, at 8:07 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


I go through my local bank.
marlon

- Original Message - From: Mike Hammett  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 4:29 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Merchant Services


I'm speaking to my bank as well as looking at QuickBooks and PayPal  
for merchant services (CC processing).  Opinions?



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

-- 
--


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2007 at ISPCON **

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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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[WISPA] OT: Cell Phone Repeaters.

2007-09-05 Thread Scottie Arnett
Have any of you guys installed cell phone repeaters for places before? I have a 
boat dock that needs Verizon cell phone service repeated but have no clue to 
really go about doing it. We have spoke to Wilson Antenna and they say we need 
at least a -80dB or so on our handheld cell phone to be able to repeat it. Just 
wondering if anyone else has done this before and what kind of results they 
have had? TIA.

Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth.
Check out www.info-ed.com for information.


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