Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
The problem with your deflation of the dollar argument is that you are just lookingat the time/value of money as if we are burying it in the backyard. Let's use big round numbers: CPE cost: $300 Interest: 10% Term: 36 months Monthly lease payment: $10 Customer rate: $30/month So, from day one, I'm making $20/month. That means on the last day of the lease, I still make $20. So even though that $10 may be worth $1000 in todays money in three years, the $20 I make is worth $2000. Total paid for CPE over life of loan: $350 Total received from customer: $1,080 Total made on CPE: $730 Now, if you assume that the $300 is a 15% discount due to buying in bulk, that means the CPE is the same price as what is paid over the loan. However, as I've mentioned before, you are also paying more to ship 10 CPE ten times then to ship 100 CPE once. So that increases you costs as well. Whatever the value of money tomorrow, I know that leasing allows me to make more money today. One thing I've learned over the years, money in my pocket is worth a hell of a lot more than the possibility of money tomorrow. On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 9:19 PM, J. Vogel jvo...@vogent.com wrote: Actually, I wasn't trying to say that CPE prices would go down 50%, I don't think they will. Just pulling nice round numbers out the hat. That doesn't change my point though, that in a deflating economy, debt that is being taken on will be repaid with dollars that are worth more and/or are harder to come by, unless you are lucky enough to be in a sector of the economy that isn't affected (as much) by the deflationary cycle. I hope that we are in such a segment. On Sat, January 3, 2009 3:01 pm, e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Don't expect to see that price of the cpes will drop by 50%. At $60-$100 there isn't much left to go lower. Especially considering shipping a cpe with integrated antenna $5 to $10 from manufacturing plans in asia. As well some semiconductor parts are currently going up instead of down as plans are being closed left and right. At current rate electronics will be up in price maybe as much as 20-30% in a year or two if things don't change soon. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: J. Vogel jvo...@vogent.com Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:44:48 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Another way of looking at it is that if deflation is occurring, and you have committed to pay for the CPE via leasing, you will be using future dollars that are worth more to pay for them, (e.g. at the time I commit to paying $100 for a cpe, each of those $100 would purchase a loaf of bread, but following the deflation of the dollar, each $dollar used to pay the lease would have purchased TWO loaves of bread.) so the real cost of those CPE is higher. That is even without figuring deflation on the CPE themselves. If deflation hits the CPE market as well, committing to pay $100 for CPE that 6 months from now will only cost $50 may not be a good position to be in. In any case, in a generally deflating market, pressure will be high to reduce prices, including subscription prices for Internet Access, so there may be fewer dollars available to pay those lease commitments, even though the dollars you do have are worth more. John Brian Webster wrote: Tom, snip ... If however you bought all of that equipment using credit and they deflate the dollar you have actually hedged against the deflation because your cash did not get deflated, yet you are still producing revenue on the other people's money you used. If you can get good credit terms and can make the numbers work I would personally borrow like crazy and expand to ramp up cash flow. The numbers will work if the government doesn't cause deflation, but if they do it works out even better. People who have loans always make out better in deflationary times over people who have hard cash assets. If you don't have assets they don't lose value. The person who built their business on cash or personal assets loses out twice. First the value of everything they already paid for depreciated in a big way and then the cash flow they are producing is buying less because of inflation. Hope that makes sense.. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Chuck, I will contact you offlist. I have some question. I have not tried SBA recently, and its time that I probably should, before I critisize the program. My point was... In past experience SBA enabled guaranteeing very low rates, but SBA could sometimes be harder to get than
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Chuck, I will contact you offlist. I have some question. I have not tried SBA recently, and its time that I probably should, before I critisize the program. My point was... In past experience SBA enabled guaranteeing very low rates, but SBA could sometimes be harder to get than traditional loans, as SBA required more documentation. Very few SBA loans get defaulted on, because they have such strong requirements. I found the same thing with RUS loans. The misconception by many is that SBA gives loans, which is not the case. SBA guarantees other bank loans. So those banks are giving loans at lower interest than they normally do, because of the SBA's guarantee. But the SBA still wants to cover themselves similar to any other lender. It does not get the borrower off the hook for proving credit worthiness, by traditional industry methods. What I always found Ironic was that to get the SBA loan, one had to prove they were turned down by other lenders. But then the SBA potentially would turn down applicants for the same reasons. All loans have the same requirement, proving 1) ability to pay back (pre-existing consistent cashflow and profit from revenue stream), 2) proven credit worthiness, 3) colateral. Getting a lower interest, just makes the lenders look more closely to prove the above. There are very few lenders that will lend based on a potential of a business plan (that does not have pre-existing good cash flow to back it up), or simply based on the merit of the business. I find that borrowers that don't have problems getting loans are borrowers who have had a past life that had already established their high credit worthiness, usually via personal assets, or by having multiple officers to guarantee the loans. The big problem that I ran into was... I sold most of my traditional assets to fund my network build outs. And then invested all profit back into the business to build out the network, there fore increasing potential. And then Banks did not look at those network assets with a value, the same as they would if it was still real estate, so to speak, that was recognized as a safe liquitable asset. I have found that obtaining finance requires long term planning and preperation, to position oneself to look good to financers by their standards. I have found that being more or less debt free, and owning a network, had no value to the lenders that I have talked to. Even with RUS matching fund loans, it seemed similar. They were more interested in what new money I'd put in, for them to match, and did not value the money already put in and spent.. My company is growing, and my financials are improving to be loan worthy, so I won't have a finance problem to much longer. But it was a long road, and I do not wish the same experience to other new start ups, and small providers that grow to the same point. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:25 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow On Jan 2, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: What I'd like to see is a SBA Broadband Lease guarantee program, that is easier to qualify for than traditional SBA guarantees, to help open up lending to the WISP market. There is tons of money out their, But its harder than said for most to prove themselves credit worthy. I haven't seen access to money to be that much of a problem. I'm a relatively small operator (compared to Travis, for example), but I got a $285K SBA loan last year with no trouble at all. Took just a few weeks. The rates weren't bad at the time (8.25%), but they are lower now I think. Have you actually *tried* the regular SBA route? In our case it was authorized both for pop build out as well as inventory (and a small percentage could even be used for working capital if we wanted) and it sure didn't seem hard to qualify for. Chuck I'm seeing high risk lenders being more open to 1 yr leases. But lenders are still concerned about 3yr leases, when they realize 3 yrs is a long time, and plenty of time for a WISP to loose their custoemrs to Comcast or FIOS. Expecially when grant programs are talked about that might subsidize Fiber Optic deployment growth. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Tom, The points you make seem to drive home the point that some leasing companies and other consultants try to make. Keep your cash on hand for operational expenses and use leasing to purchase the equipment. This preserves your capital even though it may cost more in interest. Using that logic it would seem that the lease would allow you to purchase the equipment and start producing cash flow. You could show the SBA or RUS this cash flow in addition to having your capital still in the bank as collateral. Cash as collateral is easier for a lender to understand than some sort of technology that could be obsolete in 6 months. This is not the solution for everyone and if you can't get a lease it obviously doesn't work. Business owners should consider this about debt and the deflation possibility, when you have paid cash for your equipment and they deflate the dollar, your equipment investment just deflated as well. The only thing it can give you then is cash flow (as long as you have it installed and a paying customer on the equipment). If however you bought all of that equipment using credit and they deflate the dollar you have actually hedged against the deflation because your cash did not get deflated, yet you are still producing revenue on the other people's money you used. If you can get good credit terms and can make the numbers work I would personally borrow like crazy and expand to ramp up cash flow. The numbers will work if the government doesn't cause deflation, but if they do it works out even better. People who have loans always make out better in deflationary times over people who have hard cash assets. If you don't have assets they don't lose value. The person who built their business on cash or personal assets loses out twice. First the value of everything they already paid for depreciated in a big way and then the cash flow they are producing is buying less because of inflation. Hope that makes sense.. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Chuck, I will contact you offlist. I have some question. I have not tried SBA recently, and its time that I probably should, before I critisize the program. My point was... In past experience SBA enabled guaranteeing very low rates, but SBA could sometimes be harder to get than traditional loans, as SBA required more documentation. Very few SBA loans get defaulted on, because they have such strong requirements. I found the same thing with RUS loans. The misconception by many is that SBA gives loans, which is not the case. SBA guarantees other bank loans. So those banks are giving loans at lower interest than they normally do, because of the SBA's guarantee. But the SBA still wants to cover themselves similar to any other lender. It does not get the borrower off the hook for proving credit worthiness, by traditional industry methods. What I always found Ironic was that to get the SBA loan, one had to prove they were turned down by other lenders. But then the SBA potentially would turn down applicants for the same reasons. All loans have the same requirement, proving 1) ability to pay back (pre-existing consistent cashflow and profit from revenue stream), 2) proven credit worthiness, 3) colateral. Getting a lower interest, just makes the lenders look more closely to prove the above. There are very few lenders that will lend based on a potential of a business plan (that does not have pre-existing good cash flow to back it up), or simply based on the merit of the business. I find that borrowers that don't have problems getting loans are borrowers who have had a past life that had already established their high credit worthiness, usually via personal assets, or by having multiple officers to guarantee the loans. The big problem that I ran into was... I sold most of my traditional assets to fund my network build outs. And then invested all profit back into the business to build out the network, there fore increasing potential. And then Banks did not look at those network assets with a value, the same as they would if it was still real estate, so to speak, that was recognized as a safe liquitable asset. I have found that obtaining finance requires long term planning and preperation, to position oneself to look good to financers by their standards. I have found that being more or less debt free, and owning a network, had no value to the lenders that I have talked to. Even with RUS matching fund loans, it seemed similar. They were more interested in what new money I'd put in, for them to match, and did not value the money already put in and spent.. My company is growing, and my financials are improving to be loan worthy, so I won't have a finance problem to much longer. But it was a long road
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Another way of looking at it is that if deflation is occurring, and you have committed to pay for the CPE via leasing, you will be using future dollars that are worth more to pay for them, (e.g. at the time I commit to paying $100 for a cpe, each of those $100 would purchase a loaf of bread, but following the deflation of the dollar, each $dollar used to pay the lease would have purchased TWO loaves of bread.) so the real cost of those CPE is higher. That is even without figuring deflation on the CPE themselves. If deflation hits the CPE market as well, committing to pay $100 for CPE that 6 months from now will only cost $50 may not be a good position to be in. In any case, in a generally deflating market, pressure will be high to reduce prices, including subscription prices for Internet Access, so there may be fewer dollars available to pay those lease commitments, even though the dollars you do have are worth more. John Brian Webster wrote: Tom, snip ... If however you bought all of that equipment using credit and they deflate the dollar you have actually hedged against the deflation because your cash did not get deflated, yet you are still producing revenue on the other people's money you used. If you can get good credit terms and can make the numbers work I would personally borrow like crazy and expand to ramp up cash flow. The numbers will work if the government doesn't cause deflation, but if they do it works out even better. People who have loans always make out better in deflationary times over people who have hard cash assets. If you don't have assets they don't lose value. The person who built their business on cash or personal assets loses out twice. First the value of everything they already paid for depreciated in a big way and then the cash flow they are producing is buying less because of inflation. Hope that makes sense.. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Chuck, I will contact you offlist. I have some question. I have not tried SBA recently, and its time that I probably should, before I critisize the program. My point was... In past experience SBA enabled guaranteeing very low rates, but SBA could sometimes be harder to get than traditional loans, as SBA required more documentation. Very few SBA loans get defaulted on, because they have such strong requirements. I found the same thing with RUS loans. The misconception by many is that SBA gives loans, which is not the case. SBA guarantees other bank loans. So those banks are giving loans at lower interest than they normally do, because of the SBA's guarantee. But the SBA still wants to cover themselves similar to any other lender. It does not get the borrower off the hook for proving credit worthiness, by traditional industry methods. What I always found Ironic was that to get the SBA loan, one had to prove they were turned down by other lenders. But then the SBA potentially would turn down applicants for the same reasons. All loans have the same requirement, proving 1) ability to pay back (pre-existing consistent cashflow and profit from revenue stream), 2) proven credit worthiness, 3) colateral. Getting a lower interest, just makes the lenders look more closely to prove the above. There are very few lenders that will lend based on a potential of a business plan (that does not have pre-existing good cash flow to back it up), or simply based on the merit of the business. I find that borrowers that don't have problems getting loans are borrowers who have had a past life that had already established their high credit worthiness, usually via personal assets, or by having multiple officers to guarantee the loans. The big problem that I ran into was... I sold most of my traditional assets to fund my network build outs. And then invested all profit back into the business to build out the network, there fore increasing potential. And then Banks did not look at those network assets with a value, the same as they would if it was still real estate, so to speak, that was recognized as a safe liquitable asset. I have found that obtaining finance requires long term planning and preperation, to position oneself to look good to financers by their standards. I have found that being more or less debt free, and owning a network, had no value to the lenders that I have talked to. Even with RUS matching fund loans, it seemed similar. They were more interested in what new money I'd put in, for them to match, and did not value the money already put in and spent.. My company is growing, and my financials are improving to be loan worthy, so I won't have a finance problem to much longer. But it was a long road, and I do not wish the same
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Just as an example of this. Southwest airlines (one of the few airlines still in the black and been so for a very long time) recently sold some of their planes (5 more soon to be sold) for 175millions. But they keep the planes on a 12 year lease. In 12 years those plans will be close to retirement. Over these 12 years they will pay more then the 175million they sold the planes for in the lease but they now have 175million in working capital that they can invest and grow. Make good strategic fuel hedge investments and other things to save or earn cash. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 15:26:37 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Tom, The points you make seem to drive home the point that some leasing companies and other consultants try to make. Keep your cash on hand for operational expenses and use leasing to purchase the equipment. This preserves your capital even though it may cost more in interest. Using that logic it would seem that the lease would allow you to purchase the equipment and start producing cash flow. You could show the SBA or RUS this cash flow in addition to having your capital still in the bank as collateral. Cash as collateral is easier for a lender to understand than some sort of technology that could be obsolete in 6 months. This is not the solution for everyone and if you can't get a lease it obviously doesn't work. Business owners should consider this about debt and the deflation possibility, when you have paid cash for your equipment and they deflate the dollar, your equipment investment just deflated as well. The only thing it can give you then is cash flow (as long as you have it installed and a paying customer on the equipment). If however you bought all of that equipment using credit and they deflate the dollar you have actually hedged against the deflation because your cash did not get deflated, yet you are still producing revenue on the other people's money you used. If you can get good credit terms and can make the numbers work I would personally borrow like crazy and expand to ramp up cash flow. The numbers will work if the government doesn't cause deflation, but if they do it works out even better. People who have loans always make out better in deflationary times over people who have hard cash assets. If you don't have assets they don't lose value. The person who built their business on cash or personal assets loses out twice. First the value of everything they already paid for depreciated in a big way and then the cash flow they are producing is buying less because of inflation. Hope that makes sense.. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Chuck, I will contact you offlist. I have some question. I have not tried SBA recently, and its time that I probably should, before I critisize the program. My point was... In past experience SBA enabled guaranteeing very low rates, but SBA could sometimes be harder to get than traditional loans, as SBA required more documentation. Very few SBA loans get defaulted on, because they have such strong requirements. I found the same thing with RUS loans. The misconception by many is that SBA gives loans, which is not the case. SBA guarantees other bank loans. So those banks are giving loans at lower interest than they normally do, because of the SBA's guarantee. But the SBA still wants to cover themselves similar to any other lender. It does not get the borrower off the hook for proving credit worthiness, by traditional industry methods. What I always found Ironic was that to get the SBA loan, one had to prove they were turned down by other lenders. But then the SBA potentially would turn down applicants for the same reasons. All loans have the same requirement, proving 1) ability to pay back (pre-existing consistent cashflow and profit from revenue stream), 2) proven credit worthiness, 3) colateral. Getting a lower interest, just makes the lenders look more closely to prove the above. There are very few lenders that will lend based on a potential of a business plan (that does not have pre-existing good cash flow to back it up), or simply based on the merit of the business. I find that borrowers that don't have problems getting loans are borrowers who have had a past life that had already established their high credit worthiness, usually via personal assets, or by having multiple officers to guarantee the loans. The big problem that I ran into was... I sold most of my traditional assets to fund my network build outs. And then invested all profit back into the business to build out the network
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Don't expect to see that price of the cpes will drop by 50%. At $60-$100 there isn't much left to go lower. Especially considering shipping a cpe with integrated antenna $5 to $10 from manufacturing plans in asia. As well some semiconductor parts are currently going up instead of down as plans are being closed left and right. At current rate electronics will be up in price maybe as much as 20-30% in a year or two if things don't change soon. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: J. Vogel jvo...@vogent.com Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:44:48 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Another way of looking at it is that if deflation is occurring, and you have committed to pay for the CPE via leasing, you will be using future dollars that are worth more to pay for them, (e.g. at the time I commit to paying $100 for a cpe, each of those $100 would purchase a loaf of bread, but following the deflation of the dollar, each $dollar used to pay the lease would have purchased TWO loaves of bread.) so the real cost of those CPE is higher. That is even without figuring deflation on the CPE themselves. If deflation hits the CPE market as well, committing to pay $100 for CPE that 6 months from now will only cost $50 may not be a good position to be in. In any case, in a generally deflating market, pressure will be high to reduce prices, including subscription prices for Internet Access, so there may be fewer dollars available to pay those lease commitments, even though the dollars you do have are worth more. John Brian Webster wrote: Tom, snip ... If however you bought all of that equipment using credit and they deflate the dollar you have actually hedged against the deflation because your cash did not get deflated, yet you are still producing revenue on the other people's money you used. If you can get good credit terms and can make the numbers work I would personally borrow like crazy and expand to ramp up cash flow. The numbers will work if the government doesn't cause deflation, but if they do it works out even better. People who have loans always make out better in deflationary times over people who have hard cash assets. If you don't have assets they don't lose value. The person who built their business on cash or personal assets loses out twice. First the value of everything they already paid for depreciated in a big way and then the cash flow they are producing is buying less because of inflation. Hope that makes sense.. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Chuck, I will contact you offlist. I have some question. I have not tried SBA recently, and its time that I probably should, before I critisize the program. My point was... In past experience SBA enabled guaranteeing very low rates, but SBA could sometimes be harder to get than traditional loans, as SBA required more documentation. Very few SBA loans get defaulted on, because they have such strong requirements. I found the same thing with RUS loans. The misconception by many is that SBA gives loans, which is not the case. SBA guarantees other bank loans. So those banks are giving loans at lower interest than they normally do, because of the SBA's guarantee. But the SBA still wants to cover themselves similar to any other lender. It does not get the borrower off the hook for proving credit worthiness, by traditional industry methods. What I always found Ironic was that to get the SBA loan, one had to prove they were turned down by other lenders. But then the SBA potentially would turn down applicants for the same reasons. All loans have the same requirement, proving 1) ability to pay back (pre-existing consistent cashflow and profit from revenue stream), 2) proven credit worthiness, 3) colateral. Getting a lower interest, just makes the lenders look more closely to prove the above. There are very few lenders that will lend based on a potential of a business plan (that does not have pre-existing good cash flow to back it up), or simply based on the merit of the business. I find that borrowers that don't have problems getting loans are borrowers who have had a past life that had already established their high credit worthiness, usually via personal assets, or by having multiple officers to guarantee the loans. The big problem that I ran into was... I sold most of my traditional assets to fund my network build outs. And then invested all profit back into the business to build out the network, there fore increasing potential. And then Banks did not look at those network assets with a value, the same as they would if it was still real estate, so to speak
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
On Jan 3, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: Chuck, I will contact you offlist. I have some question. Sure, be happy to answer whatever I can. I have not tried SBA recently, and its time that I probably should, before I critisize the program. My point was... In past experience SBA enabled guaranteeing very low rates, but SBA could sometimes be harder to get than traditional loans, as SBA required more documentation. Very few SBA loans get defaulted on, because they have such strong requirements. I found the same thing with RUS loans. The misconception by many is that SBA gives loans, which is not the case. SBA guarantees other bank loans. So those banks are giving loans at lower interest than they normally do, because of the SBA's guarantee. But the SBA still wants to cover themselves similar to any other lender. It does not get the borrower off the hook for proving credit worthiness, by traditional industry methods. What I always found Ironic was that to get the SBA loan, one had to prove they were turned down by other lenders. Maybe they have several different loan programs? I've never been turned down for a bank loan but I wasn't asked that question in any case. Chuck -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Actually, I wasn't trying to say that CPE prices would go down 50%, I don't think they will. Just pulling nice round numbers out the hat. That doesn't change my point though, that in a deflating economy, debt that is being taken on will be repaid with dollars that are worth more and/or are harder to come by, unless you are lucky enough to be in a sector of the economy that isn't affected (as much) by the deflationary cycle. I hope that we are in such a segment. On Sat, January 3, 2009 3:01 pm, e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Don't expect to see that price of the cpes will drop by 50%. At $60-$100 there isn't much left to go lower. Especially considering shipping a cpe with integrated antenna $5 to $10 from manufacturing plans in asia. As well some semiconductor parts are currently going up instead of down as plans are being closed left and right. At current rate electronics will be up in price maybe as much as 20-30% in a year or two if things don't change soon. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: J. Vogel jvo...@vogent.com Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:44:48 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Another way of looking at it is that if deflation is occurring, and you have committed to pay for the CPE via leasing, you will be using future dollars that are worth more to pay for them, (e.g. at the time I commit to paying $100 for a cpe, each of those $100 would purchase a loaf of bread, but following the deflation of the dollar, each $dollar used to pay the lease would have purchased TWO loaves of bread.) so the real cost of those CPE is higher. That is even without figuring deflation on the CPE themselves. If deflation hits the CPE market as well, committing to pay $100 for CPE that 6 months from now will only cost $50 may not be a good position to be in. In any case, in a generally deflating market, pressure will be high to reduce prices, including subscription prices for Internet Access, so there may be fewer dollars available to pay those lease commitments, even though the dollars you do have are worth more. John Brian Webster wrote: Tom, snip ... If however you bought all of that equipment using credit and they deflate the dollar you have actually hedged against the deflation because your cash did not get deflated, yet you are still producing revenue on the other people's money you used. If you can get good credit terms and can make the numbers work I would personally borrow like crazy and expand to ramp up cash flow. The numbers will work if the government doesn't cause deflation, but if they do it works out even better. People who have loans always make out better in deflationary times over people who have hard cash assets. If you don't have assets they don't lose value. The person who built their business on cash or personal assets loses out twice. First the value of everything they already paid for depreciated in a big way and then the cash flow they are producing is buying less because of inflation. Hope that makes sense.. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Chuck, I will contact you offlist. I have some question. I have not tried SBA recently, and its time that I probably should, before I critisize the program. My point was... In past experience SBA enabled guaranteeing very low rates, but SBA could sometimes be harder to get than traditional loans, as SBA required more documentation. Very few SBA loans get defaulted on, because they have such strong requirements. I found the same thing with RUS loans. The misconception by many is that SBA gives loans, which is not the case. SBA guarantees other bank loans. So those banks are giving loans at lower interest than they normally do, because of the SBA's guarantee. But the SBA still wants to cover themselves similar to any other lender. It does not get the borrower off the hook for proving credit worthiness, by traditional industry methods. What I always found Ironic was that to get the SBA loan, one had to prove they were turned down by other lenders. But then the SBA potentially would turn down applicants for the same reasons. All loans have the same requirement, proving 1) ability to pay back (pre-existing consistent cashflow and profit from revenue stream), 2) proven credit worthiness, 3) colateral. Getting a lower interest, just makes the lenders look more closely to prove the above. There are very few lenders that will lend based on a potential of a business plan (that does not have pre-existing good cash flow to back it up), or simply based on the merit of the business. I find that borrowers that don't
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
not thinkable to likely in just 6 months. That's the wiser bet, by a million times. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3%. And I'll take the bet on being able to lease or finance equipment in 6 months. How much shall we throw on the table? I have lease companies calling me daily wanting to give me money... seriously... I get 3-4 calls PER WEEK from all different leasing companies. They all have money and want credit worthy companies to use it, because that's how they make money. So again, how much shall we bet on this? :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the cost of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Whatever happens in the future... It will NOT be the same as today. Inflation or deflation will happen. No way around it. Congress has already taken on more debt than can be serviced.Neither scenario will let you survive being in debt. Besides, don't expect to be able to lease equipment at any rate or terms within 6 months. Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
easing co be able to do anything for you in 6 months? I would not bet the company on it. I absolutely would NOT depend on it for the next 18 months. Re-write your business plan. Have a contingency plan in place. Have one for no credit being available. That's gone from "not thinkable" to "likely" in just 6 months. That's the wiser "bet", by a million times. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" t...@ida.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3%. And I'll take the bet on being able to lease or finance equipment in 6 months. How much shall we throw on the table? I have lease companies calling me daily wanting to give me money... seriously... I get 3-4 calls PER WEEK from all different leasing companies. They all have money and want "credit worthy" companies to use it, because that's how they make money. So again, how much shall we bet on this? :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" t...@ida.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the "cost" of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Whatever happens in the future... It will NOT be the same as today. Inflation or deflation will happen. No way around it. Congress has already taken on more debt than can be serviced.Neither scenario will let you survive being in debt. Besides, don't expect to be able to lease equipment at any rate or terms within 6 months. Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ---
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Deflation, in the unlikely event that it could occur, will likely only be really bad in certain market segments. In our current case, it is commodities like gold, oil, copper, etc...of course they had a huge run-up over the last several years, so we are pretty much even with where we were when all this started. The only country I've seen with anything like long-term deflation was Japan in the 90s, and they didn't drop all that much. Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of rea...@muddyfrogwater.us Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:38 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the cost of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Whatever happens in the future... It will NOT be the same as today. Inflation or deflation will happen. No way around it. Congress has already taken on more debt than can be serviced.Neither scenario will let you survive being in debt. Besides, don't expect to be able to lease equipment at any rate or terms within 6 months. Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
If what Mark is saying is correct, it doesn't matter how successful you are right now or how wildly your sales increase if deflation cuts everything but longer term debts down to just 10%. Net Profit being up 10.3% makes no difference if everything (but longer term debt) is slashed to 10% I have no idea if he is correct or not, but if what he is saying is correct... that deflation is coming... what he described will happen. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 10:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3%. And I'll take the bet on being able to lease or finance equipment in 6 months. How much shall we throw on the table? I have lease companies calling me daily wanting to give me money... seriously... I get 3-4 calls PER WEEK from all different leasing companies. They all have money and want credit worthy companies to use it, because that's how they make money. So again, how much shall we bet on this? :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the cost of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Whatever happens in the future... It will NOT be the same as today. Inflation or deflation will happen. No way around it. Congress has already taken on more debt than can be serviced.Neither scenario will let you survive being in debt. Besides, don't expect to be able to lease equipment at any rate or terms within 6 months. Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
I think the introduction of the bullet has pretty much answered the cost The Bullet was truly a remarkable accomplishment. However, Policy should not limit technology choice and innovation. A bullet does a provider no good, that has decided on benefits of non-standardized polling technologies. (Wimax, Canopy, Trango, Mikrotik, Proxim, Etc) I'm not willing to finance anything. it's paid for in cash, or it's not to be. That's how I operate now. Well, a good way to do it for you. I've been forced to do it that way myself as well. But that does not help the poor and needy, that can't afford it. And cash flow funded operations will never be able to scale at the rate that the public needs. We are also fighting an uphill battle, competing agaisnt companies that utilize long term finance as their tool. I can give an example of the recent Cell carrier's marketing campaigns. Get your free laptop computer wireless enabled, when you sign up with ATT cellular Internet for 2yr). Entice them now, take advantage of them later. Can we compete with that long term? In new government policy, a WISP could be replaced by the low capacity Cellular, as easilly as the Fiber carrier. Considering there is as large a push to get the low income PCs, as well as Broadband. In the low income residential apartmnet projects that we serviced in a case study, we took a pole. The number one reason that the tenant did not purchase our broadband service was that they did not have a computer. Over 30%. What I look for in government policy most are programs that will allow WISPs to continue sound business practices such as fund our operations via cash flow. And easy way to continue that is to get programs that will pay for CPE, so we can put the money that was previously used to fund CPE into cash flow instead, so we can afford to expand out networks faster. We then need states to get rid off all property tax on broadband infrastructure. These are the things necessary for programs to foster Long term sustaining service to the public, after grant money is gone. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: rea...@muddyfrogwater.us To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Every WISP needs to ask themselves... Why are they not deploying more broadband? How come they have 500 custoemrs instead of 5000? What is standing in their way? What are they lacking? What do you need to change that? My hold-up is twofold...The cost of installs, and the fact that people are slow change. Inertia, they call it. I know what I need. I need a loan guarantee program, that can be secured by the only assets that I have, my network, and the commitment to deploying, that I have shown. What do you need? I think the introduction of the bullet has pretty much answered the cost thing for those who aer willing to use them. In my case, I've not decided to use them, or not use them. I have one sitting beside me I have yet to get to test. I want programs that do not show preference or predudice. For example, we need end user CPE assistance. It shouldn;t matter whether the CPE is a $100 CPE, a $500 CPE, a Fiber Optic CPE, or a Wireless CPE. A CPE is a CPE. And a low income family needs the same assistanceregardless of the technology or provier. What we need is a CPE procurement assistance program that is technology/vendor neutral, so it can be used for the end user's provider of choice. So we can compete on service, not by who has the most access to long term finance. I'm not willing to finance anything. it's paid for in cash, or it's not to be. That's how I operate now. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Blair Davis To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I happen to agree with muddyfrog... I built my network with NO money from the gov. My 'competition' has taken gov money, lots of it One of them put up a $40K AP cluster, 900MHz, smack in the middle of a 900MHz PtP link I have, (running since 2001), and then complained to me when they had interference problems. My link still works fine.Their poor planning, and gobs of 'free money', suddenly became my problem. I, like frog, simply want to be left alone. Don't give my competition money, don't give me money. Of my 3 competitors, 2 would not exist without gov money. Blair Jack Unger wrote
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Travis, You are in a very fortunteately situation where you have reached a level, where you can prove your self credit worthy to their standards. I even had a conversation with some NY money guys last month, and they are in big trouble. They are desperately looking for deals. They have all this cash (billions) and no where to spend it or invest it. But they'd rather sit on the money, than put it somewhere they feel is not secure. The problem is that most WISPs don;t get approved for leases as easilly as you do. They get some leases upfront, until the value of their assets are already overly committed to secure them, and they get stopped dead on expansion. What I'd like to see is a SBA Broadband Lease guarantee program, that is easier to qualify for than traditional SBA guarantees, to help open up lending to the WISP market. There is tons of money out their, But its harder than said for most to prove themselves credit worthy. I'm seeing high risk lenders being more open to 1 yr leases. But lenders are still concerned about 3yr leases, when they realize 3 yrs is a long time, and plenty of time for a WISP to loose their custoemrs to Comcast or FIOS. Expecially when grant programs are talked about that might subsidize Fiber Optic deployment growth. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3%. And I'll take the bet on being able to lease or finance equipment in 6 months. How much shall we throw on the table? I have lease companies calling me daily wanting to give me money... seriously... I get 3-4 calls PER WEEK from all different leasing companies. They all have money and want credit worthy companies to use it, because that's how they make money. So again, how much shall we bet on this? :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the cost of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Whatever happens in the future... It will NOT be the same as today. Inflation or deflation will happen. No way around it. Congress has already taken on more debt than can be serviced.Neither scenario will let you survive being in debt. Besides, don't expect to be able to lease equipment at any rate or terms within 6 months. Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
If you are a leasing company why bother to extend leases to unknown entities when your current customers are already profitable and continue to expand their relationship? If I was the leasing company that Travis used I would be much more interested in providing another 100k to Travis than 50k to some other WISP I know nothing about. It is all about risk these days and known risks are way easier than unknown risks. If you are an unknown risk you better have excellent financials and pay your vendors on time or you can forget it. -Matt On Jan 2, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: Travis, You are in a very fortunteately situation where you have reached a level, where you can prove your self credit worthy to their standards. I even had a conversation with some NY money guys last month, and they are in big trouble. They are desperately looking for deals. They have all this cash (billions) and no where to spend it or invest it. But they'd rather sit on the money, than put it somewhere they feel is not secure. The problem is that most WISPs don;t get approved for leases as easilly as you do. They get some leases upfront, until the value of their assets are already overly committed to secure them, and they get stopped dead on expansion. What I'd like to see is a SBA Broadband Lease guarantee program, that is easier to qualify for than traditional SBA guarantees, to help open up lending to the WISP market. There is tons of money out their, But its harder than said for most to prove themselves credit worthy. I'm seeing high risk lenders being more open to 1 yr leases. But lenders are still concerned about 3yr leases, when they realize 3 yrs is a long time, and plenty of time for a WISP to loose their custoemrs to Comcast or FIOS. Expecially when grant programs are talked about that might subsidize Fiber Optic deployment growth. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3%. And I'll take the bet on being able to lease or finance equipment in 6 months. How much shall we throw on the table? I have lease companies calling me daily wanting to give me money... seriously... I get 3-4 calls PER WEEK from all different leasing companies. They all have money and want credit worthy companies to use it, because that's how they make money. So again, how much shall we bet on this? :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the cost of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Whatever happens in the future... It will NOT be the same as today. Inflation or deflation will happen. No way around it. Congress has already taken on more debt than can be serviced.Neither scenario will let you survive being in debt. Besides, don't expect to be able to lease equipment at any rate or terms within 6 months. Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
The banker was not impressed that we owned all our assets and told us to start financing EVERYTHING. Remember, banks make money on loans and your ability to pay them. They don't make money on assets. (Just like they don't want to hold thousands of foreclosed homes.) That is probably the best advise that I have heard on this topic, so far. Its the dead honest truth. We learned it the hard way, and it is very frustrating. The bank puts very little value (possibly none) on assets that are not instantly liquidatable or accessible to pay monthly loan payments. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: can...@believewireless.net p...@believewireless.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Why worry about money not being available later if you can get it now? Borrow, borrow, borrow and borrow some more. If the markets dry up, we'll still have the leases and we can start paying cash for everything like everyone else. Our leasing is the same as what Travis described as far as rates and terms. We save the same 20% on CPE while only paying 10% during the lease term. This has also allowed us to purchase licensed backhauls and upgrade other parts of our network. So, if a credit crunch hits, our network has already been upgraded and has plenty of capacity to grow even if we can't lease another radio. When we started, we started cash only and only purchased new gear when we had enough of a cash reserve. Over time we thought leasing might be better and went to the bank. The banker was not impressed that we owned all our assets and told us to start financing EVERYTHING. Remember, banks make money on loans and your ability to pay them. They don't make money on assets. (Just like they don't want to hold thousands of foreclosed homes.) Leasing allows you to keep more cash in your pocket for reserves AND keep more equipment on hand. Leasing has also reduced our shipping costs. When we paid cash for everything, we might buy a week or months worth of equipment. Then you get a sudden spike in demand and you have run out and order more equipment with faster shipping times. And then you find the vendors don't have anything in stock and you are screwed. The more you lease today, the more cash you'll have in your pocket to buy equipment tomorrow if leasing isn't an option. On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: Again, I want to apologize for the pissing contest I created here. While I do appreciate the input I highly disagree with some of the language and attitude here. Can we please stop this thread? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 12:12 AM, rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: Travis... I don't bet money on non-productive things. IE, I don't gamble. It's a moral thing. But, here's why I am saying you're not going to be able to... 1. Over the last 2 decades, industrial finance has been mostly done by direct sales of bonds on the open market.This has fallen almost 90 percent in the last 6 months. 2. Larger and institutional borrowers have been either delaying investments, or paying higher rates to float commercial paper. Recent treasury rates have shown that insitutional investors are willing to pull money from any business venture and buy bonds instead, at LESS THAN 1% rate of return. 3. This has caused the lenders for larger institutions to slow lending. 4. This is going to start cannibalizing the smaller institution's remaining capital, as large companies borrow from, or lease from ever smaller entities, since they're the only ones with any available capital right now. Smaller banks and regional banks are still moderately healthy, but with regulators suddenly breathing down their necks, they're suddenly risk averse, to try to keep institutional investors from pulling money out and having the regulators start blasting holes in thier portfolios of paper they hold as assets. Rules are, that what that paper can be sold for on the open market, is the value it must be valued at. A grade paper sells at a steep discount. B sells at a severe discount. C or less is is now sold at less than 10% of it's face value. So, even the solvent banks are having to start limiting exposure to anything that even faintly looks risky. So, you're likely not dealing with any of those. You're likely using a company that was capitalized with cash of investors a number of years ago, owns its own portfolio of paper, and has relatively limited debt. Yes, they're calling and saying we
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
On Jan 2, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: What I'd like to see is a SBA Broadband Lease guarantee program, that is easier to qualify for than traditional SBA guarantees, to help open up lending to the WISP market. There is tons of money out their, But its harder than said for most to prove themselves credit worthy. I haven't seen access to money to be that much of a problem. I'm a relatively small operator (compared to Travis, for example), but I got a $285K SBA loan last year with no trouble at all. Took just a few weeks. The rates weren't bad at the time (8.25%), but they are lower now I think. Have you actually *tried* the regular SBA route? In our case it was authorized both for pop build out as well as inventory (and a small percentage could even be used for working capital if we wanted) and it sure didn't seem hard to qualify for. Chuck I'm seeing high risk lenders being more open to 1 yr leases. But lenders are still concerned about 3yr leases, when they realize 3 yrs is a long time, and plenty of time for a WISP to loose their custoemrs to Comcast or FIOS. Expecially when grant programs are talked about that might subsidize Fiber Optic deployment growth. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3%. And I'll take the bet on being able to lease or finance equipment in 6 months. How much shall we throw on the table? I have lease companies calling me daily wanting to give me money... seriously... I get 3-4 calls PER WEEK from all different leasing companies. They all have money and want credit worthy companies to use it, because that's how they make money. So again, how much shall we bet on this? :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the cost of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Whatever happens in the future... It will NOT be the same as today. Inflation or deflation will happen. No way around it. Congress has already taken on more debt than can be serviced.Neither scenario will let you survive being in debt. Besides, don't expect to be able to lease equipment at any rate or terms within 6 months. Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
On Jan 1, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: Actually, Not sure the Government has the right to define broadband. Any good contract defines for the purposes of the contract the terms that are used that don't have an obviously clear independent definition. The Government, if it's handing out money for broadband development, has the fiduciary duty to define its terms clearly, and its definitions may well differ from anyone else's. The definition is completely valid and legitimate for that purpose. The Government, in your example, is not creating a dictionary definition but a legitimate contractual definition. Yes, this is completely open to manipulation by lobbyists, and it's our duty to each other to try to make sure that it doesn't end up excluding us as a practical matter. Chuck Anyone check if anyone had a copyright, trademark, or Patent, on the term broadband? Is Webster required to accept/print the definition sent to them from the Gov? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 If all is not lost, where is it? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
that's extreme, Mike... But it's possible.I certainly hope not. But, if we're to use the only analogous event in American history as a yardstick... 50% of all mortgages defaulted in the Depression. Deflation cut prices by up to 75% in some markets / areas. Some commodities went up in price, as there was nobody producing them anymore. So far, there's less available credit now than there was a year after the Depression started. Economic output has not fallen nearly as much. As I said, nobody has any ability to fully predict, as every expert contradicts every other expert on many things. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow If what Mark is saying is correct, it doesn't matter how successful you are right now or how wildly your sales increase if deflation cuts everything but longer term debts down to just 10%. Net Profit being up 10.3% makes no difference if everything (but longer term debt) is slashed to 10% I have no idea if he is correct or not, but if what he is saying is correct... that deflation is coming... what he described will happen. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 10:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3%. And I'll take the bet on being able to lease or finance equipment in 6 months. How much shall we throw on the table? I have lease companies calling me daily wanting to give me money... seriously... I get 3-4 calls PER WEEK from all different leasing companies. They all have money and want credit worthy companies to use it, because that's how they make money. So again, how much shall we bet on this? :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the cost of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Whatever happens in the future... It will NOT be the same as today. Inflation or deflation will happen. No way around it. Congress has already taken on more debt than can be serviced.Neither scenario will let you survive being in debt. Besides, don't expect to be able to lease equipment at any rate or terms within 6 months. Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
I doubt we're getting any more spectrum for a while. We've been given quite a bit recently. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:59 PM To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Government is not a monolith, and to condemn it out of hand is unreasonable. You can certainly go to local, even state government meetings, and express your opinion, and have an impact. I've done so many times (and I also sit on the other side of the table on my local township board). My issue is with the Feds, and it's the best reason to join a group like Wispa. There is no way that a small/medium sized provider can hope to have any sort of a voice at that level, unless you happen to personally know the chairman of the particular committee or sub-committee that effects you. Possible, but unlikely. Happy New Year! Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Jeff, I disagree (not with you but) with people who can do nothing but mindlessly condemn the government. The next time their house catches on fire they better forget all about calling the Fire Dept - after all, it's run by the government. When it snows they should stop expecting a snow plow to clear the road... snow plowing is provided by the government. For that matter, they should stop expecting to drive on paved roads at all... roads are built and maintained by the government. People who mindlessly condemn the government are hypocrites, pure and simple. They take government help with one hand while loudly denouncing what the government is doing for others. If these people were really good citizens, they would shut their mouths, get the act in gear and get out to some government meetings to politely and respectfully 1) express their opinions and 2) volunteer their time to work to help create positive change in their community. jack Jeff Broadwick wrote: I'm not sure what you disagree with here Jack. Personally, I think the less government involvement the better. They will throw money at people who have spent money lobbying them (likely not the small/medium sized WISP). The money will be used poorly in many/most cases and the buildout will not have the desired effect. Also, it is likely that your competition will get the lion's share of the money, since many WISPs serve as the only broadband provider in a small market. I think the RUS loans are a far better way of getting things done. If they want to subsidize something they can reduce the interest rate to the borrower. Regards, Jeff _ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow *** Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by LEAVING *** rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: I'm very, very, very pruned -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
I generally characterize our government, (to folks from other places where there is not so much freedom) as an insane giant robot that was originally created to work for us and is collectively owned by all of us. We have hired hundreds of thousands of programmers and mechanics to fix it and enhance it and rid it of its insanity but none of the fixers talk to each other before trying out the latest release of firmware. One guy will fix the foot and the hand starts smashing houses. This analogy has gotten some interesting conversations started with folks from the middle east. - Original Message - From: Jeff Broadwick jeffl...@comcast.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Government is not a monolith, and to condemn it out of hand is unreasonable. You can certainly go to local, even state government meetings, and express your opinion, and have an impact. I've done so many times (and I also sit on the other side of the table on my local township board). My issue is with the Feds, and it's the best reason to join a group like Wispa. There is no way that a small/medium sized provider can hope to have any sort of a voice at that level, unless you happen to personally know the chairman of the particular committee or sub-committee that effects you. Possible, but unlikely. Happy New Year! Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Jeff, I disagree (not with you but) with people who can do nothing but mindlessly condemn the government. The next time their house catches on fire they better forget all about calling the Fire Dept - after all, it's run by the government. When it snows they should stop expecting a snow plow to clear the road... snow plowing is provided by the government. For that matter, they should stop expecting to drive on paved roads at all... roads are built and maintained by the government. People who mindlessly condemn the government are hypocrites, pure and simple. They take government help with one hand while loudly denouncing what the government is doing for others. If these people were really good citizens, they would shut their mouths, get the act in gear and get out to some government meetings to politely and respectfully 1) express their opinions and 2) volunteer their time to work to help create positive change in their community. jack Jeff Broadwick wrote: I'm not sure what you disagree with here Jack. Personally, I think the less government involvement the better. They will throw money at people who have spent money lobbying them (likely not the small/medium sized WISP). The money will be used poorly in many/most cases and the buildout will not have the desired effect. Also, it is likely that your competition will get the lion's share of the money, since many WISPs serve as the only broadband provider in a small market. I think the RUS loans are a far better way of getting things done. If they want to subsidize something they can reduce the interest rate to the borrower. Regards, Jeff _ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow *** Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by LEAVING *** rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: I'm very, very, very pruned -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Actually, Not sure the Government has the right to define broadband. Anyone check if anyone had a copyright, trademark, or Patent, on the term broadband? Is Webster required to accept/print the definition sent to them from the Gov? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Josh Luthman wrote: We have all had the pleasure to earn a customer that has three kids nagging at him for a PC and Internet access with that extra bonus check from work, but think of the countless older couples or less fortunate families that could really use the help catching up with the rest of the world technologically. That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 8:44 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Yeah, but the secret to getting more spectrum is not asking for it, nor proving need. The secret is identifying spectrum that could be available, that someone else doesn't already have claim to. Whitespace is going to be awesome for you west-coast/central folk, but that still isn't going to yield 5-10mbps to subs. The biggest risk in upcomming broadband policy is that it will be written to incourage only fiber deployment. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 8:44 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Whitespaces sure will allow that, given the vendors produce gear that bonds multiple channels. Bond 4 channels together and you've got 80 megs of throughput. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:13 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Yeah, but the secret to getting more spectrum is not asking for it, nor proving need. The secret is identifying spectrum that could be available, that someone else doesn't already have claim to. Whitespace is going to be awesome for you west-coast/central folk, but that still isn't going to yield 5-10mbps to subs. The biggest risk in upcomming broadband policy is that it will be written to incourage only fiber deployment. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 8:44 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
ARGG! Accepting money or Accepting Help are NOT bad words. The problem is the FREE money goes to the wrong people, or does not get fairly spread around. The government often forgets to reward the small guy proportionaly, who put his neck out there in many of the early needy years. The problem is that they do not give enough, nor in an efficient manner. I know what its like to do it alone. I started my professional life with a pair of Levi's, $5 in its pocket, and a very used car loan/payment my church credit union. I didn't need a dime from anyone, to build my life and career. But 20 years later, now that I have nothing to prove, I can honestly say, the hard way is absolultely not necessary, and there is a better way for it to get done, other than to do it alone. There are very few businesses in this world that did it well and in scale, alone. There is a President in place that WILL be giving money or some form of financial assistance. We will never be given anything if we don't ask for it. And it will be given to our competitors, if we don;t make it clear why it should be given to us instead. Our best bet as an industry, is to ask for exactly what we want. The first thing we need to answer for the government is Why are lobbiests asking for 50mbps to the Home? There is no good reason, it is completely unnecessary. We need to steer officals away from thinking of speed/capacity needs. And start getting the message clear of what the deficiencies and needs really are. It has nothing to do with capacity. If every American home had 1mbps, it would be an amazing revolutionizing accomplishment. If every American had a choice of 2-3 providers, it would also be a revolutionizing accompplishment. If everyone had the ability to deploy broadband without being inhibited, that would also be a revolutionizing thing. There is one clear clear Problem that needs fixing That broadband providers are inhibited from deploying. It might be lack of rights to easement/right-of-ways/permits. It might be lack of Loan guarantees. Every WISP needs to ask themselves... Why are they not deploying more broadband? How come they have 500 custoemrs instead of 5000? What is standing in their way? What are they lacking? What do you need to change that? I know what I need. I need a loan guarantee program, that can be secured by the only assets that I have, my network, and the commitment to deploying, that I have shown. What do you need? I want programs that do not show preference or predudice. For example, we need end user CPE assistance. It shouldn;t matter whether the CPE is a $100 CPE, a $500 CPE, a Fiber Optic CPE, or a Wireless CPE. A CPE is a CPE. And a low income family needs the same assistanceregardless of the technology or provier. What we need is a CPE procurement assistance program that is technology/vendor neutral, so it can be used for the end user's provider of choice. So we can compete on service, not by who has the most access to long term finance. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Blair Davis To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I happen to agree with muddyfrog... I built my network with NO money from the gov. My 'competition' has taken gov money, lots of it One of them put up a $40K AP cluster, 900MHz, smack in the middle of a 900MHz PtP link I have, (running since 2001), and then complained to me when they had interference problems. My link still works fine.Their poor planning, and gobs of 'free money', suddenly became my problem. I, like frog, simply want to be left alone. Don't give my competition money, don't give me money. Of my 3 competitors, 2 would not exist without gov money. Blair Jack Unger wrote: *** Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by LEAVING *** rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: I'm very, very, very pruned -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
And provided you live somewhere like Nevada that would have 8 channels available. Remember Whitespace, isn't realisitic for tight beam PTP. The last thing we want is vendors making gear that bonds 8 channels. All it takes is one of those APs every 30 miles, to KILL ALL competition in that area. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Whitespaces sure will allow that, given the vendors produce gear that bonds multiple channels. Bond 4 channels together and you've got 80 megs of throughput. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:13 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Yeah, but the secret to getting more spectrum is not asking for it, nor proving need. The secret is identifying spectrum that could be available, that someone else doesn't already have claim to. Whitespace is going to be awesome for you west-coast/central folk, but that still isn't going to yield 5-10mbps to subs. The biggest risk in upcomming broadband policy is that it will be written to incourage only fiber deployment. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 8:44 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 8:44 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
LOL! That's really a pretty good description of any really large and beaurocratic organization insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 ch...@beehive.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I generally characterize our government, (to folks from other places where there is not so much freedom) as an insane giant robot that was originally created to work for us and is collectively owned by all of us. We have hired hundreds of thousands of programmers and mechanics to fix it and enhance it and rid it of its insanity but none of the fixers talk to each other before trying out the latest release of firmware. One guy will fix the foot and the hand starts smashing houses. This analogy has gotten some interesting conversations started with folks from the middle east. - Original Message - From: Jeff Broadwick jeffl...@comcast.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Government is not a monolith, and to condemn it out of hand is unreasonable. You can certainly go to local, even state government meetings, and express your opinion, and have an impact. I've done so many times (and I also sit on the other side of the table on my local township board). My issue is with the Feds, and it's the best reason to join a group like Wispa. There is no way that a small/medium sized provider can hope to have any sort of a voice at that level, unless you happen to personally know the chairman of the particular committee or sub-committee that effects you. Possible, but unlikely. Happy New Year! Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Jeff, I disagree (not with you but) with people who can do nothing but mindlessly condemn the government. The next time their house catches on fire they better forget all about calling the Fire Dept - after all, it's run by the government. When it snows they should stop expecting a snow plow to clear the road... snow plowing is provided by the government. For that matter, they should stop expecting to drive on paved roads at all... roads are built and maintained by the government. People who mindlessly condemn the government are hypocrites, pure and simple. They take government help with one hand while loudly denouncing what the government is doing for others. If these people were really good citizens, they would shut their mouths, get the act in gear and get out to some government meetings to politely and respectfully 1) express their opinions and 2) volunteer their time to work to help create positive change in their community. jack Jeff Broadwick wrote: I'm not sure what you disagree with here Jack. Personally, I think the less government involvement the better. They will throw money at people who have spent money lobbying them (likely not the small/medium sized WISP). The money will be used poorly in many/most cases and the buildout will not have the desired effect. Also, it is likely that your competition will get the lion's share of the money, since many WISPs serve as the only broadband provider in a small market. I think the RUS loans are a far better way of getting things done. If they want to subsidize something they can reduce the interest rate to the borrower. Regards, Jeff _ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow *** Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by LEAVING *** rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: I'm very, very, very pruned -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Every WISP needs to ask themselves... Why are they not deploying more broadband? How come they have 500 custoemrs instead of 5000? What is standing in their way? What are they lacking? What do you need to change that? My hold-up is twofold...The cost of installs, and the fact that people are slow change. Inertia, they call it. I know what I need. I need a loan guarantee program, that can be secured by the only assets that I have, my network, and the commitment to deploying, that I have shown. What do you need? I think the introduction of the bullet has pretty much answered the cost thing for those who aer willing to use them. In my case, I've not decided to use them, or not use them. I have one sitting beside me I have yet to get to test. I want programs that do not show preference or predudice. For example, we need end user CPE assistance. It shouldn;t matter whether the CPE is a $100 CPE, a $500 CPE, a Fiber Optic CPE, or a Wireless CPE. A CPE is a CPE. And a low income family needs the same assistanceregardless of the technology or provier. What we need is a CPE procurement assistance program that is technology/vendor neutral, so it can be used for the end user's provider of choice. So we can compete on service, not by who has the most access to long term finance. I'm not willing to finance anything. it's paid for in cash, or it's not to be. That's how I operate now. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Blair Davis To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I happen to agree with muddyfrog... I built my network with NO money from the gov. My 'competition' has taken gov money, lots of it One of them put up a $40K AP cluster, 900MHz, smack in the middle of a 900MHz PtP link I have, (running since 2001), and then complained to me when they had interference problems. My link still works fine.Their poor planning, and gobs of 'free money', suddenly became my problem. I, like frog, simply want to be left alone. Don't give my competition money, don't give me money. Of my 3 competitors, 2 would not exist without gov money. Blair Jack Unger wrote: *** Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by LEAVING *** rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: I'm very, very, very pruned -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 8:44 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the "cost" of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: "Tom DeReggi" wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Every WISP needs to ask themselves... Why are they not deploying more broadband? How come they have 500 custoemrs instead of 5000? What is standing in their way? What are they lacking? What do you need to change that? My "hold-up" is twofold...The cost of installs, and the fact that people are slow change. Inertia, they call it. I know what I need. I need a loan guarantee program, that can be secured by the only assets that I have, my network, and the commitment to deploying, that I have shown. What do you need? I think the introduction of the "bullet" has pretty much answered the cost thing for those who aer willing to use them. In my case, I've not decided to use them, or not use them. I have one sitting beside me I have yet to get to test. I want programs that do not show preference or predudice. For example, we need end user CPE assistance. It shouldn;t matter whether the CPE is a $100 CPE, a $500 CPE, a Fiber Optic CPE, or a Wireless CPE. A CPE is a CPE. And a low income family needs the same assistanceregardless of the technology or provier. What we need is a CPE procurement assistance program that is technology/vendor neutral, so it can be used for the end user's provider of choice. So we can compete on service, not by who has the most access to long term finance. I'm not willing to finance anything. it's paid for in cash, or it's not to be. That's how I operate now. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Blair Davis To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I happen to agree with muddyfrog... I built my network with NO money from the gov. My 'competition' has taken gov money, lots of it One of them put up a $40K AP cluster, 900MHz, smack in the middle of a 900MHz PtP link I have, (running since 2001), and then complained to me when they had interference problems. My link still works fine.Their poor planning, and gobs of 'free money', suddenly became my problem. I, like frog, simply want to be left alone. Don't give my competition money, don't give me money. Of my 3 competitors, 2 would not exist without gov money. Blair Jack Unger wrote: *** Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by LEAVING *** rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: I'm very, very, very pruned -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wi
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
I can get to downtown Chicago in one wireless hop and receive TV signals from additional markets, yet I have at least 14 completely clear channels and an additional 4 that can be used in significant parts of my coverage area. That's 108 MHz of space, or over 2 GB/s of throughput without any frequency reuse. That's also including an exclusion zone around Chicago for certain channels. I don't see this as a tool to go great distances, but to have a solid coverage area. The 100' limit to antenna height really puts a dent as to how far you can go. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:24 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow And provided you live somewhere like Nevada that would have 8 channels available. Remember Whitespace, isn't realisitic for tight beam PTP. The last thing we want is vendors making gear that bonds 8 channels. All it takes is one of those APs every 30 miles, to KILL ALL competition in that area. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Whitespaces sure will allow that, given the vendors produce gear that bonds multiple channels. Bond 4 channels together and you've got 80 megs of throughput. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:13 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Yeah, but the secret to getting more spectrum is not asking for it, nor proving need. The secret is identifying spectrum that could be available, that someone else doesn't already have claim to. Whitespace is going to be awesome for you west-coast/central folk, but that still isn't going to yield 5-10mbps to subs. The biggest risk in upcomming broadband policy is that it will be written to incourage only fiber deployment. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 8:44 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the cost of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Whatever happens in the future... It will NOT be the same as today. Inflation or deflation will happen. No way around it. Congress has already taken on more debt than can be serviced.Neither scenario will let you survive being in debt. Besides, don't expect to be able to lease equipment at any rate or terms within 6 months. Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3%. And I'll take the bet on being able to lease or finance equipment in 6 months. How much shall we throw on the table? I have lease companies calling me daily wanting to give me money... seriously... I get 3-4 calls PER WEEK from all different leasing companies. They all have money and want "credit worthy" companies to use it, because that's how they make money. So again, how much shall we bet on this? :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" t...@ida.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the "cost" of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5 per month for 36 months for the equipment on that customer... that's pretty cheap even if you only charge $29 per month. :) Whatever happens in the future... It will NOT be the same as today. Inflation or deflation will happen. No way around it. Congress has already taken on more debt than can be serviced.Neither scenario will let you survive being in debt. Besides, don't expect to be able to lease equipment at any rate or terms within 6 months. Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Travis... I don't bet money on non-productive things. IE, I don't gamble. It's a moral thing. But, here's why I am saying you're not going to be able to... 1. Over the last 2 decades, industrial finance has been mostly done by direct sales of bonds on the open market.This has fallen almost 90 percent in the last 6 months. 2. Larger and institutional borrowers have been either delaying investments, or paying higher rates to float commercial paper. Recent treasury rates have shown that insitutional investors are willing to pull money from any business venture and buy bonds instead, at LESS THAN 1% rate of return. 3. This has caused the lenders for larger institutions to slow lending. 4. This is going to start cannibalizing the smaller institution's remaining capital, as large companies borrow from, or lease from ever smaller entities, since they're the only ones with any available capital right now. Smaller banks and regional banks are still moderately healthy, but with regulators suddenly breathing down their necks, they're suddenly risk averse, to try to keep institutional investors from pulling money out and having the regulators start blasting holes in thier portfolios of paper they hold as assets. Rules are, that what that paper can be sold for on the open market, is the value it must be valued at. A grade paper sells at a steep discount. B sells at a severe discount. C or less is is now sold at less than 10% of it's face value. So, even the solvent banks are having to start limiting exposure to anything that even faintly looks risky. So, you're likely not dealing with any of those. You're likely using a company that was capitalized with cash of investors a number of years ago, owns its own portfolio of paper, and has relatively limited debt. Yes, they're calling and saying we have money to lend. And they do. But it is quite limited. Once the larger borrowers arrive in that market, it will be sucked up faster than feathers in a hurricane. Due o the shorter term nature of their lending or financing, you'll see a small trickle continue. However, it is also true that the credit standards for even those have run upwards a lot, cutting off smaller and non-established prospective customers like me and most WISP's. They are raising the finacial requirements of who they finance a lot. That's going on considerably and has been for some time. Will your lender or leasing co be able to do anything for you in 6 months? I would not bet the company on it. I absolutely would NOT depend on it for the next 18 months. Re-write your business plan. Have a contingency plan in place. Have one for no credit being available. That's gone from not thinkable to likely in just 6 months. That's the wiser bet, by a million times. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3%. And I'll take the bet on being able to lease or finance equipment in 6 months. How much shall we throw on the table? I have lease companies calling me daily wanting to give me money... seriously... I get 3-4 calls PER WEEK from all different leasing companies. They all have money and want credit worthy companies to use it, because that's how they make money. So again, how much shall we bet on this? :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price). So, in the end, it actually saves money and the cost of installing a new customer is $0 to you, because the $99 installation fee pays for the time, materials, etc. Example: single CPE = $190 each 460 CPE = $155 each 36 month lease on $71,300 = $2,300 per month x 36 months = $82,800 / 460 units = $180 each But in 36 months, you might be able to charge no more than 10 dollars / month per customer. That's the magic of deflation - which is already occurring. And it costs you $5
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Again, I want to apologize for the pissing contest I created here. While I do appreciate the input I highly disagree with some of the language and attitude here. Can we please stop this thread? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 12:12 AM, rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: Travis... I don't bet money on non-productive things. IE, I don't gamble. It's a moral thing. But, here's why I am saying you're not going to be able to... 1. Over the last 2 decades, industrial finance has been mostly done by direct sales of bonds on the open market.This has fallen almost 90 percent in the last 6 months. 2. Larger and institutional borrowers have been either delaying investments, or paying higher rates to float commercial paper. Recent treasury rates have shown that insitutional investors are willing to pull money from any business venture and buy bonds instead, at LESS THAN 1% rate of return. 3. This has caused the lenders for larger institutions to slow lending. 4. This is going to start cannibalizing the smaller institution's remaining capital, as large companies borrow from, or lease from ever smaller entities, since they're the only ones with any available capital right now. Smaller banks and regional banks are still moderately healthy, but with regulators suddenly breathing down their necks, they're suddenly risk averse, to try to keep institutional investors from pulling money out and having the regulators start blasting holes in thier portfolios of paper they hold as assets. Rules are, that what that paper can be sold for on the open market, is the value it must be valued at. A grade paper sells at a steep discount. B sells at a severe discount. C or less is is now sold at less than 10% of it's face value. So, even the solvent banks are having to start limiting exposure to anything that even faintly looks risky. So, you're likely not dealing with any of those. You're likely using a company that was capitalized with cash of investors a number of years ago, owns its own portfolio of paper, and has relatively limited debt. Yes, they're calling and saying we have money to lend. And they do. But it is quite limited. Once the larger borrowers arrive in that market, it will be sucked up faster than feathers in a hurricane. Due o the shorter term nature of their lending or financing, you'll see a small trickle continue. However, it is also true that the credit standards for even those have run upwards a lot, cutting off smaller and non-established prospective customers like me and most WISP's. They are raising the finacial requirements of who they finance a lot. That's going on considerably and has been for some time. Will your lender or leasing co be able to do anything for you in 6 months? I would not bet the company on it. I absolutely would NOT depend on it for the next 18 months. Re-write your business plan. Have a contingency plan in place. Have one for no credit being available. That's gone from not thinkable to likely in just 6 months. That's the wiser bet, by a million times. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow We have been charging the same for internet service for almost 5 years and just two days ago, we got double the new sign-ups on a single day of what we can do for installs. Business is booming in our area and our industry. Just looking at our 2008 financials, our gross revenues are up 15.2% and our Net Profit is up 10.3%. And I'll take the bet on being able to lease or finance equipment in 6 months. How much shall we throw on the table? I have lease companies calling me daily wanting to give me money... seriously... I get 3-4 calls PER WEEK from all different leasing companies. They all have money and want credit worthy companies to use it, because that's how they make money. So again, how much shall we bet on this? :) Travis Microserv rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow You can not grow in large scales without financing... and I don't understand why people are against it. Our last equipment lease was under 10% interest, no personal guarantees, no money up front. We were able to purchase a large quantity of CPE units (thus saving us about 20% off the single unit price
[WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123059580600140977.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Hopefully the cable companies haven't bought out the decision makers. It would be great to see the WISPs across the states that are doing exactly what is being suggested needs done gets assistance. I know it can't come soon enough for this small WISP! We have all had the pleasure to earn a customer that has three kids nagging at him for a PC and Internet access with that extra bonus check from work, but think of the countless older couples or less fortunate families that could really use the help catching up with the rest of the world technologically. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Josh Luthman wrote: We have all had the pleasure to earn a customer that has three kids nagging at him for a PC and Internet access with that extra bonus check from work, but think of the countless older couples or less fortunate families that could really use the help catching up with the rest of the world technologically. That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Cable wants it to be that way - that's why I'm worried cable buys the decision makers. They did note that DSL is stuck in the 1 and 1.5 meg range, though... I do agree with the comment that the highway needs to be built large the one time it is initially built, but not everyone can afford to use AN80s for CPEs... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:49 PM, David E. Smith d...@mvn.net wrote: Josh Luthman wrote: We have all had the pleasure to earn a customer that has three kids nagging at him for a PC and Internet access with that extra bonus check from work, but think of the countless older couples or less fortunate families that could really use the help catching up with the rest of the world technologically. That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
From the article: The big cable providers also want to target underserved areas, where there is only one broadband provider or the service isn't widely available. In those markets, companies would get incentives to build out next-generation services. The download speed that would qualify as next-generation would likely be in the range of 40 to 50 megabits per second, people involved in the discussions say. What this means, is that if YOU are the sole provider, the cable and fiber guys can get subsidized to come and put you out of business. When you get government involved , EVERYONE will lose. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
I'm all for having someone else pay for expensive infrastructure, but I hope that if the feds go forward with something like this, it's done differently than the RUS system. It's easier to do business my way and pay a tiny bit more for money from a bank, than to do all the RUS planning and paperwork hoops to get RUS subsidized loans. Speaking of RUS, has anyone noticed any crossroads wireless stuff happening? They've signed up to be at lots of sites, but I haven't actually heard much about deployment activity. On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 12:52:31PM -0500, Josh Luthman wrote: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123059580600140977.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Hopefully the cable companies haven't bought out the decision makers. It would be great to see the WISPs across the states that are doing exactly what is being suggested needs done gets assistance. I know it can't come soon enough for this small WISP! We have all had the pleasure to earn a customer that has three kids nagging at him for a PC and Internet access with that extra bonus check from work, but think of the countless older couples or less fortunate families that could really use the help catching up with the rest of the world technologically. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
I'm very tired of hearing your anti-government sentiment, Mark. Very tired. Over the years. Very, very tired of it. Mark Nash UnwiredWest 78 Centennial Loop Suite E Eugene, OR 97401 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax http://www.unwiredwest.com - Original Message - From: rea...@muddyfrogwater.us To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow From the article: The big cable providers also want to target underserved areas, where there is only one broadband provider or the service isn't widely available. In those markets, companies would get incentives to build out next-generation services. The download speed that would qualify as next-generation would likely be in the range of 40 to 50 megabits per second, people involved in the discussions say. What this means, is that if YOU are the sole provider, the cable and fiber guys can get subsidized to come and put you out of business. When you get government involved , EVERYONE will lose. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Let's keep personal conflicts off list and as professional as possible, please! On 12/31/08, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: I'm very tired of hearing your anti-government sentiment, Mark. Very tired. Over the years. Very, very tired of it. Mark Nash UnwiredWest 78 Centennial Loop Suite E Eugene, OR 97401 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax http://www.unwiredwest.com - Original Message - From: rea...@muddyfrogwater.us To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow From the article: The big cable providers also want to target underserved areas, where there is only one broadband provider or the service isn't widely available. In those markets, companies would get incentives to build out next-generation services. The download speed that would qualify as next-generation would likely be in the range of 40 to 50 megabits per second, people involved in the discussions say. What this means, is that if YOU are the sole provider, the cable and fiber guys can get subsidized to come and put you out of business. When you get government involved , EVERYONE will lose. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
I'm very, very, very tired of absolute and total incompetence of government being given my money and used against the people's interest and for the interests of the rich, powerful, or elected. As should EVERYONE. Our nation faces very possible complete economic destruction and 100% of the fault lies at the feet of government. And yet, you're tired of hearing my government should not be running this stuff comments? We now observe the results of letting the government adjust the markets for its benefit. Can we now at least agree on the gross stupidity of doing so? They're now talking about all but completely taking over the broadband supplier system, and you're still thinking this is good?Because there's a slim chance you might get free money from the trough in DC? The whole economic world is exploding due to the VERY things discussed (government adjusting how and which consumers get what), and you're still hoping to get your share? Has everyone lost their minds? insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I'm very tired of hearing your anti-government sentiment, Mark. Very tired. Over the years. Very, very tired of it. Mark Nash UnwiredWest 78 Centennial Loop Suite E Eugene, OR 97401 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax http://www.unwiredwest.com - Original Message - From: rea...@muddyfrogwater.us To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow From the article: The big cable providers also want to target underserved areas, where there is only one broadband provider or the service isn't widely available. In those markets, companies would get incentives to build out next-generation services. The download speed that would qualify as next-generation would likely be in the range of 40 to 50 megabits per second, people involved in the discussions say. What this means, is that if YOU are the sole provider, the cable and fiber guys can get subsidized to come and put you out of business. When you get government involved , EVERYONE will lose. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
*** Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by LEAVING *** rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: I'm very, very, very pruned -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Crossroads has shut things down for now due to money supply. Apparently with the banking crisis their banks have delayed releasing funds to them for deployment. My project for them was shut down back at the end of August. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of jp Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:14 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I'm all for having someone else pay for expensive infrastructure, but I hope that if the feds go forward with something like this, it's done differently than the RUS system. It's easier to do business my way and pay a tiny bit more for money from a bank, than to do all the RUS planning and paperwork hoops to get RUS subsidized loans. Speaking of RUS, has anyone noticed any crossroads wireless stuff happening? They've signed up to be at lots of sites, but I haven't actually heard much about deployment activity. On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 12:52:31PM -0500, Josh Luthman wrote: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123059580600140977.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Hopefully the cable companies haven't bought out the decision makers. It would be great to see the WISPs across the states that are doing exactly what is being suggested needs done gets assistance. I know it can't come soon enough for this small WISP! We have all had the pleasure to earn a customer that has three kids nagging at him for a PC and Internet access with that extra bonus check from work, but think of the countless older couples or less fortunate families that could really use the help catching up with the rest of the world technologically. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
I happen to agree with muddyfrog... I built my network with NO money from the gov. My 'competition' has taken gov money, lots of it One of them put up a $40K AP cluster, 900MHz, smack in the middle of a 900MHz PtP link I have, (running since 2001), and then complained to me when they had interference problems. My link still works fine.Their poor planning, and gobs of 'free money', suddenly became my problem. I, like frog, simply want to be left alone. Don't give my competition money, don't give me money. Of my 3 competitors, 2 would not exist without gov money. Blair Jack Unger wrote: *** Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by LEAVING *** rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: I'm very, very, very pruned -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Who is Crossroads? Having issues with RUS backed Open Range(wireless) and IBEC(BPL) in our areas. Don Renner -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brian Webster Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:48 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Crossroads has shut things down for now due to money supply. Apparently with the banking crisis their banks have delayed releasing funds to them for deployment. My project for them was shut down back at the end of August. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of jp Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:14 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I'm all for having someone else pay for expensive infrastructure, but I hope that if the feds go forward with something like this, it's done differently than the RUS system. It's easier to do business my way and pay a tiny bit more for money from a bank, than to do all the RUS planning and paperwork hoops to get RUS subsidized loans. Speaking of RUS, has anyone noticed any crossroads wireless stuff happening? They've signed up to be at lots of sites, but I haven't actually heard much about deployment activity. On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 12:52:31PM -0500, Josh Luthman wrote: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123059580600140977.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Hopefully the cable companies haven't bought out the decision makers. It would be great to see the WISPs across the states that are doing exactly what is being suggested needs done gets assistance. I know it can't come soon enough for this small WISP! We have all had the pleasure to earn a customer that has three kids nagging at him for a PC and Internet access with that extra bonus check from work, but think of the countless older couples or less fortunate families that could really use the help catching up with the rest of the world technologically. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
I'm not sure what you disagree with here Jack. Personally, I think the less government involvement the better. They will throw money at people who have spent money lobbying them (likely not the small/medium sized WISP). The money will be used poorly in many/most cases and the buildout will not have the desired effect. Also, it is likely that your competition will get the lion's share of the money, since many WISPs serve as the only broadband provider in a small market. I think the RUS loans are a far better way of getting things done. If they want to subsidize something they can reduce the interest rate to the borrower. Regards, Jeff _ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow *** Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by LEAVING *** rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: I'm very, very, very pruned -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email mailto:jun...@ask-wi.com jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Jeff, I disagree (not with you but) with people who can do nothing but mindlessly condemn the government. The next time their house catches on fire they better forget all about calling the Fire Dept - after all, it's run by the government. When it snows they should stop expecting a snow plow to clear the road... snow plowing is provided by the government. For that matter, they should stop expecting to drive on paved roads at all... roads are built and maintained by the government. People who mindlessly condemn the government are hypocrites, pure and simple. They take government help with one hand while loudly denouncing what the government is doing for others. If these people were really good citizens, they would shut their mouths, get the act in gear and get out to some government meetings to politely and respectfully 1) express their opinions and 2) volunteer their time to work to help create positive change in their community. jack Jeff Broadwick wrote: I'm not sure what you disagree with here Jack. Personally, I think the less government involvement the better. They will throw money at people who have spent money lobbying them (likely not the small/medium sized WISP). The money will be used poorly in many/most cases and the buildout will not have the desired effect. Also, it is likely that your competition will get the lion's share of the money, since many WISPs serve as the only broadband provider in a small market. I think the RUS loans are a far better way of getting things done. If they want to subsidize something they can reduce the interest rate to the borrower. Regards, Jeff _ From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow *** Everybody brings JOY to this list. Some by entering, some by LEAVING *** rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: I'm very, very, very pruned -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email jun...@ask-wi.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
I can agree or disagree with you. My comment is that I'm tired of hearing about it. Create your own list with nothing but people like you and rant on that list. Mark Nash UnwiredWest 78 Centennial Loop Suite E Eugene, OR 97401 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax http://www.unwiredwest.com - Original Message - From: rea...@muddyfrogwater.us To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I'm very, very, very tired of absolute and total incompetence of government being given my money and used against the people's interest and for the interests of the rich, powerful, or elected. As should EVERYONE. Our nation faces very possible complete economic destruction and 100% of the fault lies at the feet of government. And yet, you're tired of hearing my government should not be running this stuff comments? We now observe the results of letting the government adjust the markets for its benefit. Can we now at least agree on the gross stupidity of doing so? They're now talking about all but completely taking over the broadband supplier system, and you're still thinking this is good?Because there's a slim chance you might get free money from the trough in DC? The whole economic world is exploding due to the VERY things discussed (government adjusting how and which consumers get what), and you're still hoping to get your share? Has everyone lost their minds? insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I'm very tired of hearing your anti-government sentiment, Mark. Very tired. Over the years. Very, very tired of it. Mark Nash UnwiredWest 78 Centennial Loop Suite E Eugene, OR 97401 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax http://www.unwiredwest.com - Original Message - From: rea...@muddyfrogwater.us To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow From the article: The big cable providers also want to target underserved areas, where there is only one broadband provider or the service isn't widely available. In those markets, companies would get incentives to build out next-generation services. The download speed that would qualify as next-generation would likely be in the range of 40 to 50 megabits per second, people involved in the discussions say. What this means, is that if YOU are the sole provider, the cable and fiber guys can get subsidized to come and put you out of business. When you get government involved , EVERYONE will lose. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow
Everyone, I apologize for bringing this up. On 12/31/08, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: I can agree or disagree with you. My comment is that I'm tired of hearing about it. Create your own list with nothing but people like you and rant on that list. Mark Nash UnwiredWest 78 Centennial Loop Suite E Eugene, OR 97401 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax http://www.unwiredwest.com - Original Message - From: rea...@muddyfrogwater.us To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I'm very, very, very tired of absolute and total incompetence of government being given my money and used against the people's interest and for the interests of the rich, powerful, or elected. As should EVERYONE. Our nation faces very possible complete economic destruction and 100% of the fault lies at the feet of government. And yet, you're tired of hearing my government should not be running this stuff comments? We now observe the results of letting the government adjust the markets for its benefit. Can we now at least agree on the gross stupidity of doing so? They're now talking about all but completely taking over the broadband supplier system, and you're still thinking this is good?Because there's a slim chance you might get free money from the trough in DC? The whole economic world is exploding due to the VERY things discussed (government adjusting how and which consumers get what), and you're still hoping to get your share? Has everyone lost their minds? insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow I'm very tired of hearing your anti-government sentiment, Mark. Very tired. Over the years. Very, very tired of it. Mark Nash UnwiredWest 78 Centennial Loop Suite E Eugene, OR 97401 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax http://www.unwiredwest.com - Original Message - From: rea...@muddyfrogwater.us To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow From the article: The big cable providers also want to target underserved areas, where there is only one broadband provider or the service isn't widely available. In those markets, companies would get incentives to build out next-generation services. The download speed that would qualify as next-generation would likely be in the range of 40 to 50 megabits per second, people involved in the discussions say. What this means, is that if YOU are the sole provider, the cable and fiber guys can get subsidized to come and put you out of business. When you get government involved , EVERYONE will lose. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: ccoo...@intelliwave.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Congress may help smaller ISPs grow Let us hope that with the push for more broadband accessibility we get more spectrum!!! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:56 PM, chris cooper ccoo...@intelliwave.comwrote: And your chainsaws- going to need to cut some mighty big holes in the air to fit all the needed spectrum into Chris That article states they want to define broadband as 5Mbps, and some folks suggest 10Mbps. Get your forklifts ready! David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
