Re: [WISPA] [Caleaquestions] VoIP CALEA Question
Marlon: VoIP service providers have different compliance requirements when compared to access providers. The WISPA CALEA standard ONLY addresses access providers as I have already explained, and Michael has also confirmed. We didn't write the Act, we just have to read it (which I highly recommend), and comply with it. jc On 3/1/2012 9:26 PM, Marlon K. Schafer (509-982-2181) wrote: > But VoIP IS data > > LEA is just after the data. They don't care who gives it to them when > they are trying to track down a bad guy. > > You remember the conversations we had with the FBI. Without a > standard in place you (the operator of the network) have to do > everything you reasonably can to comply with their requests. > > If you are a VoIP provider but the VoIP doesn't ride your network you > can't track it. Just like you couldn't track a ptp file sharing > application *IF* neither end of the transaction rides your network. > > But, *IF* either end of the transaction rides your network you can and > will have to intercept the conversation and send a copy to LEA. > > Why is VoIP any different? It's just a voice conversation instead of > a kiddie porn video. Both have an audio component, both are data at > the network level. > > I'm not saying you are wrong here. But if I were the LEA I'd not > care, I just need the data. > > marlon > > - Original Message - From: "J.C. Utter" > To: "Marlon K. Schafer (509-982-2181)" > Cc: "WISPA General List" ; > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 8:43 AM > Subject: Re: [Caleaquestions] [WISPA] VoIP CALEA Question > > >> I agree with your first sentence, Marlon, but your second comment >> seems unclear because everyone hands off traffic. >> >> The main difference between 3rd party and in-house VoIP is that you >> have a different set of rules to follow for CALEA compliance >> specifically for voice service providers that includes the >> requirement to provide call records to the LEA (called number, start >> call, end call, call duration, etc.). There are other differences, >> but this is the main difference. The WISPA CALEA Standard does not >> apply to VoIP intercepts when VoIP is hosted in-house. The IPNA >> standard is specifically for Network Access providers (the "NA" in >> IPNA) and not for Voice Service Providers. >> >> We should have a standard for wireless VoIP providers, because a lot >> of WISPs offer VoIP today compared to the time when we started >> writing the first WISPA CALEA standard. >> >> jc >> >> >> On 3/1/2012 11:20 AM, Marlon K. Schafer (509-982-2181) wrote: >>> You can only record what hits your network. >>> >>> If it's handed off to someone else they'll have to record it. >>> >>> marlon >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> From: "Matt Hoppes" >>> To:; "WISPA General List" >>> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 6:56 AM >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP CALEA Question >>> >>> I'm obviously not asking the question properly. I know how to do a CALEA capture for regular IP traffic. My question is related to VoIP traffic in particular. (e.g. Yes, if a customer has Vonage I obviously can't record the call... but I can capture the packets). However, my understanding was always that if you provided VoIP from your network you had to be able to record both legs of the call so that the LEA can determine, for example, which side of the call a noise was heard on. Matt Hoppes Director of Information Technology Indigo Wireless +1 (570) 723-7312 On 3/1/12 9:38 AM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: > Do a google search on "Mikrotik CALEA", take a look at The Mikrotik > WIki as well as Butch's CALEA (MUM 2007) presentation. > This will give you an excellent idea on how to accomplish what you > are > asking for . > > Regards. > > Faisal Imtiaz > Snappy Internet&Telecom > 7266 SW 48 Street > Miami, Fl 33155 > Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 > Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net > > > On 3/1/2012 7:20 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote: >> We are considering doing some limited VoIP offerings to >> supplement our >> GSM offerings in certain situations. >> >> A question that just arose, and I don't know the answer to is: >> >> * Understanding that an interconnected VoIP carrier must be CALEA >> compliant and be able to record calls. >> >> ** How does this situation work if the audio stream does not pass >> through your soft-switch? (e.g. end user makes a call, my soft >> switch >> sets up the call between end-user and Level3, and then a re-invite >> happens which sends the audio from the end-user direct to the Level3 >> switch) >> >> How am I suppose to be able to record that call? >> ___ >> Wireless mailing list >> Wireless@wispa.org >>>
Re: [WISPA] [Caleaquestions] VoIP CALEA Question
They need to learn the situation because NOT being standards compliant open up a lot of ugly doors that you may be *made* to walk though :-). The folks on the committee have spent far too much time with the FBI to take this lightly at all. marlon - Original Message - From: "Mike Hammett" To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Caleaquestions] VoIP CALEA Question > Agreed. > > Plus I think most people on this thread didn't even understand the > situation. > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > On 3/1/2012 10:43 AM, J.C. Utter wrote: >> I agree with your first sentence, Marlon, but your second comment seems >> unclear because everyone hands off traffic. >> >> The main difference between 3rd party and in-house VoIP is that you have >> a different set of rules to follow for CALEA compliance specifically for >> voice service providers that includes the requirement to provide call >> records to the LEA (called number, start call, end call, call duration, >> etc.). There are other differences, but this is the main difference. The >> WISPA CALEA Standard does not apply to VoIP intercepts when VoIP is >> hosted in-house. The IPNA standard is specifically for Network Access >> providers (the "NA" in IPNA) and not for Voice Service Providers. >> >> We should have a standard for wireless VoIP providers, because a lot of >> WISPs offer VoIP today compared to the time when we started writing the >> first WISPA CALEA standard. >> >> jc >> >> >> On 3/1/2012 11:20 AM, Marlon K. Schafer (509-982-2181) wrote: >>> You can only record what hits your network. >>> >>> If it's handed off to someone else they'll have to record it. >>> >>> marlon >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> From: "Matt Hoppes" >>> To:; "WISPA General List" >>> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 6:56 AM >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP CALEA Question >>> >>> >>>> I'm obviously not asking the question properly. >>>> >>>> I know how to do a CALEA capture for regular IP traffic. My question >>>> is >>>> related to VoIP traffic in particular. >>>> >>>> (e.g. Yes, if a customer has Vonage I obviously can't record the >>>> call... >>>> but I can capture the packets). >>>> >>>> However, my understanding was always that if you provided VoIP from >>>> your >>>> network you had to be able to record both legs of the call so that the >>>> LEA can determine, for example, which side of the call a noise was >>>> heard >>>> on. >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt Hoppes >>>> Director of Information Technology >>>> Indigo Wireless >>>> +1 (570) 723-7312 >>>> >>>> On 3/1/12 9:38 AM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: >>>>> Do a google search on "Mikrotik CALEA", take a look at The Mikrotik >>>>> WIki as well as Butch's CALEA (MUM 2007) presentation. >>>>> This will give you an excellent idea on how to accomplish what you are >>>>> asking for . >>>>> >>>>> Regards. >>>>> >>>>> Faisal Imtiaz >>>>> Snappy Internet& Telecom >>>>> 7266 SW 48 Street >>>>> Miami, Fl 33155 >>>>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 >>>>> Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3/1/2012 7:20 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote: >>>>>> We are considering doing some limited VoIP offerings to supplement >>>>>> our >>>>>> GSM offerings in certain situations. >>>>>> >>>>>> A question that just arose, and I don't know the answer to is: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Understanding that an interconnected VoIP carrier must be CALEA >>>>>> compliant and be able to record calls. >>>>>> >>>>>> ** How does this situation work if the audio stream does not pass >>>>>> through your soft-switch? (e.g. end user makes a call, my soft switch >>>>>> sets up the call between end-user and Level3, and then a re-invite >>>>>> happens which sends the audio from the end-user direct to the Level3 >>>>>
Re: [WISPA] [Caleaquestions] VoIP CALEA Question
But VoIP IS data LEA is just after the data. They don't care who gives it to them when they are trying to track down a bad guy. You remember the conversations we had with the FBI. Without a standard in place you (the operator of the network) have to do everything you reasonably can to comply with their requests. If you are a VoIP provider but the VoIP doesn't ride your network you can't track it. Just like you couldn't track a ptp file sharing application *IF* neither end of the transaction rides your network. But, *IF* either end of the transaction rides your network you can and will have to intercept the conversation and send a copy to LEA. Why is VoIP any different? It's just a voice conversation instead of a kiddie porn video. Both have an audio component, both are data at the network level. I'm not saying you are wrong here. But if I were the LEA I'd not care, I just need the data. marlon - Original Message - From: "J.C. Utter" To: "Marlon K. Schafer (509-982-2181)" Cc: "WISPA General List" ; Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [Caleaquestions] [WISPA] VoIP CALEA Question >I agree with your first sentence, Marlon, but your second comment seems >unclear because everyone hands off traffic. > > The main difference between 3rd party and in-house VoIP is that you have a > different set of rules to follow for CALEA compliance specifically for > voice service providers that includes the requirement to provide call > records to the LEA (called number, start call, end call, call duration, > etc.). There are other differences, but this is the main difference. The > WISPA CALEA Standard does not apply to VoIP intercepts when VoIP is hosted > in-house. The IPNA standard is specifically for Network Access providers > (the "NA" in IPNA) and not for Voice Service Providers. > > We should have a standard for wireless VoIP providers, because a lot of > WISPs offer VoIP today compared to the time when we started writing the > first WISPA CALEA standard. > > jc > > > On 3/1/2012 11:20 AM, Marlon K. Schafer (509-982-2181) wrote: >> You can only record what hits your network. >> >> If it's handed off to someone else they'll have to record it. >> >> marlon >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Matt Hoppes" >> To:; "WISPA General List" >> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 6:56 AM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP CALEA Question >> >> >>> I'm obviously not asking the question properly. >>> >>> I know how to do a CALEA capture for regular IP traffic. My question is >>> related to VoIP traffic in particular. >>> >>> (e.g. Yes, if a customer has Vonage I obviously can't record the call... >>> but I can capture the packets). >>> >>> However, my understanding was always that if you provided VoIP from your >>> network you had to be able to record both legs of the call so that the >>> LEA can determine, for example, which side of the call a noise was heard >>> on. >>> >>> >>> Matt Hoppes >>> Director of Information Technology >>> Indigo Wireless >>> +1 (570) 723-7312 >>> >>> On 3/1/12 9:38 AM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: Do a google search on "Mikrotik CALEA", take a look at The Mikrotik WIki as well as Butch's CALEA (MUM 2007) presentation. This will give you an excellent idea on how to accomplish what you are asking for . Regards. Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet&Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 3/1/2012 7:20 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote: > We are considering doing some limited VoIP offerings to supplement our > GSM offerings in certain situations. > > A question that just arose, and I don't know the answer to is: > > * Understanding that an interconnected VoIP carrier must be CALEA > compliant and be able to record calls. > > ** How does this situation work if the audio stream does not pass > through your soft-switch? (e.g. end user makes a call, my soft switch > sets up the call between end-user and Level3, and then a re-invite > happens which sends the audio from the end-user direct to the Level3 > switch) > > How am I suppose to be able to record that call? > ___ > Wireless mailing list > Wireless@wispa.org > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> ___ >>> Wireless mailing list >>> Wireless@wispa.org >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> ___ >> Caleaquestions mailing list >> caleaquesti...@wispa.org >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/caleaquestions >> >
Re: [WISPA] [Caleaquestions] VoIP CALEA Question
Agreed. Plus I think most people on this thread didn't even understand the situation. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 3/1/2012 10:43 AM, J.C. Utter wrote: > I agree with your first sentence, Marlon, but your second comment seems > unclear because everyone hands off traffic. > > The main difference between 3rd party and in-house VoIP is that you have > a different set of rules to follow for CALEA compliance specifically for > voice service providers that includes the requirement to provide call > records to the LEA (called number, start call, end call, call duration, > etc.). There are other differences, but this is the main difference. The > WISPA CALEA Standard does not apply to VoIP intercepts when VoIP is > hosted in-house. The IPNA standard is specifically for Network Access > providers (the "NA" in IPNA) and not for Voice Service Providers. > > We should have a standard for wireless VoIP providers, because a lot of > WISPs offer VoIP today compared to the time when we started writing the > first WISPA CALEA standard. > > jc > > > On 3/1/2012 11:20 AM, Marlon K. Schafer (509-982-2181) wrote: >> You can only record what hits your network. >> >> If it's handed off to someone else they'll have to record it. >> >> marlon >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Matt Hoppes" >> To:; "WISPA General List" >> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 6:56 AM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP CALEA Question >> >> >>> I'm obviously not asking the question properly. >>> >>> I know how to do a CALEA capture for regular IP traffic. My question is >>> related to VoIP traffic in particular. >>> >>> (e.g. Yes, if a customer has Vonage I obviously can't record the call... >>> but I can capture the packets). >>> >>> However, my understanding was always that if you provided VoIP from your >>> network you had to be able to record both legs of the call so that the >>> LEA can determine, for example, which side of the call a noise was heard >>> on. >>> >>> >>> Matt Hoppes >>> Director of Information Technology >>> Indigo Wireless >>> +1 (570) 723-7312 >>> >>> On 3/1/12 9:38 AM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: Do a google search on "Mikrotik CALEA", take a look at The Mikrotik WIki as well as Butch's CALEA (MUM 2007) presentation. This will give you an excellent idea on how to accomplish what you are asking for . Regards. Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet& Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 3/1/2012 7:20 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote: > We are considering doing some limited VoIP offerings to supplement our > GSM offerings in certain situations. > > A question that just arose, and I don't know the answer to is: > > * Understanding that an interconnected VoIP carrier must be CALEA > compliant and be able to record calls. > > ** How does this situation work if the audio stream does not pass > through your soft-switch? (e.g. end user makes a call, my soft switch > sets up the call between end-user and Level3, and then a re-invite > happens which sends the audio from the end-user direct to the Level3 > switch) > > How am I suppose to be able to record that call? > ___ > Wireless mailing list > Wireless@wispa.org > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> ___ >>> Wireless mailing list >>> Wireless@wispa.org >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> ___ >> Caleaquestions mailing list >> caleaquesti...@wispa.org >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/caleaquestions >> > ___ > Wireless mailing list > Wireless@wispa.org > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] [Caleaquestions] VoIP CALEA Question
I agree with your first sentence, Marlon, but your second comment seems unclear because everyone hands off traffic. The main difference between 3rd party and in-house VoIP is that you have a different set of rules to follow for CALEA compliance specifically for voice service providers that includes the requirement to provide call records to the LEA (called number, start call, end call, call duration, etc.). There are other differences, but this is the main difference. The WISPA CALEA Standard does not apply to VoIP intercepts when VoIP is hosted in-house. The IPNA standard is specifically for Network Access providers (the "NA" in IPNA) and not for Voice Service Providers. We should have a standard for wireless VoIP providers, because a lot of WISPs offer VoIP today compared to the time when we started writing the first WISPA CALEA standard. jc On 3/1/2012 11:20 AM, Marlon K. Schafer (509-982-2181) wrote: > You can only record what hits your network. > > If it's handed off to someone else they'll have to record it. > > marlon > > - Original Message - > From: "Matt Hoppes" > To:; "WISPA General List" > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 6:56 AM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] VoIP CALEA Question > > >> I'm obviously not asking the question properly. >> >> I know how to do a CALEA capture for regular IP traffic. My question is >> related to VoIP traffic in particular. >> >> (e.g. Yes, if a customer has Vonage I obviously can't record the call... >> but I can capture the packets). >> >> However, my understanding was always that if you provided VoIP from your >> network you had to be able to record both legs of the call so that the >> LEA can determine, for example, which side of the call a noise was heard >> on. >> >> >> Matt Hoppes >> Director of Information Technology >> Indigo Wireless >> +1 (570) 723-7312 >> >> On 3/1/12 9:38 AM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: >>> Do a google search on "Mikrotik CALEA", take a look at The Mikrotik >>> WIki as well as Butch's CALEA (MUM 2007) presentation. >>> This will give you an excellent idea on how to accomplish what you are >>> asking for . >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> Faisal Imtiaz >>> Snappy Internet&Telecom >>> 7266 SW 48 Street >>> Miami, Fl 33155 >>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 >>> Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net >>> >>> >>> On 3/1/2012 7:20 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote: We are considering doing some limited VoIP offerings to supplement our GSM offerings in certain situations. A question that just arose, and I don't know the answer to is: * Understanding that an interconnected VoIP carrier must be CALEA compliant and be able to record calls. ** How does this situation work if the audio stream does not pass through your soft-switch? (e.g. end user makes a call, my soft switch sets up the call between end-user and Level3, and then a re-invite happens which sends the audio from the end-user direct to the Level3 switch) How am I suppose to be able to record that call? ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> ___ >>> Wireless mailing list >>> Wireless@wispa.org >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> ___ >> Wireless mailing list >> Wireless@wispa.org >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > ___ > Caleaquestions mailing list > caleaquesti...@wispa.org > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/caleaquestions > ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
