Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
I don't know; it seems like you are trying to solve the wrong set of problems. Why not just build a business model based on paying T1 pricing? This will allow you to get your business rolling now without routing worries like you currently have. Further, you can bond more T1s as your needs grow. When you get sufficient size you can justify going a different direction and possibly even save money. Again, if you have a business model based on T1 pricing then cheaper bandwidth down the road will only help. -Matt Mike Hammett wrote: No, $150 total for 1 meg, I burst to 5 or 6 megs often. I can get a single T1 with a 3 year commit for $517... several times more than the $150 now I pay for 1 meg bursting to 5 or 6. 2xT1 is $1011, 3xT1 is $1490, 4xT1 is $1860. One of the things on my plate is getting fiber built into the tandem CO in town where a dozen carriers exist. Last quote I got from an alternate provider was (IP only) $360 for 3 years for 3 megs burstable to 9 megs. Now that requires me to become a CLEC and build fiber into the CO, but the costs for that provide a whole lot more opportunity and are much better long term than those outrageous T1 fees ($1330 per month at a 6 meg commit goes a long way to paying back the investment in the project). 110 South First St. 815-909 - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
oh yeah, in DeKalb, IL 60115 - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Clint Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering So, about $750-$900 per month? Anyone on the list have a POP in Chicago to share bandwidth (and bandwidth costs!) with Mike? You may want to call around again on that. You can definitely get a quad bonded T1 up there, I'd imagine for about $1,200 a month; if you have any good metro E providers, you can probably get 5 megs for about $800 or so that would be a lot more accomidating than your current setup. What's the address and npa/nxx of your pop? Thanks, -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies On 9/5/07, Mike Hammett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: $150 for a meg, though I've routinely hit 5 or 6 megs. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Clint Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering > Call me stupid, but, don't screw around with your upstream. Get good > reliable connections, don't get fancier than you have to, don't bother > with > VPNs, etc... > > If you want to save money and you have scale (minumum 10-25Mb/s, > 100Mb/s > definitely), get the bandwidth directly from a carrier and supply your own > pipes. But, go with a good carrier and get a good pipe. > > If smaller, at least get good upstream providers. I can't imagine a cost > cheap enough to entice me to start jerryrigging the connection that I'm > relying on for my entire customer base > > You spend too much time and money building your network and your customer > base to kill it over a few hundred a month. If you're too strapped for > cash > to get "good connections", spend the time growing revenue (ie > sales/marketing) rather than cutting costs... > > -Clint Ricker > Kentnis Technology > > > On 9/5/07, Jeff Broadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's >> provider's NOC? >> >> Jeff >> >> -Original Message- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> On >> Behalf Of David E. Smith >> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM >> To: WISPA General List >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering >> >> Mike Hammett wrote: >> > They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it. >> >> They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is one >> big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep. >> >> If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want to >> BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you have >> your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position. >> >> > I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second >> > upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP >> > provides. I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify >> > something that big. >> >> As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't be >> a >> problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either be >> multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get an >> ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork >> ready.) >> >> Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable >> to >> get >> a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means >> renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it needs >> to >> be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four >> /24s, >> or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal. >> >> > I >> > certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice. I envision the VPN >> > endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my >> > endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network. >> >> Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with >> double-billed traffic. >> >> Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their >> upstream >> (and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. >> One >> o
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
No, $150 total for 1 meg, I burst to 5 or 6 megs often. I can get a single T1 with a 3 year commit for $517... several times more than the $150 now I pay for 1 meg bursting to 5 or 6. 2xT1 is $1011, 3xT1 is $1490, 4xT1 is $1860. One of the things on my plate is getting fiber built into the tandem CO in town where a dozen carriers exist. Last quote I got from an alternate provider was (IP only) $360 for 3 years for 3 megs burstable to 9 megs. Now that requires me to become a CLEC and build fiber into the CO, but the costs for that provide a whole lot more opportunity and are much better long term than those outrageous T1 fees ($1330 per month at a 6 meg commit goes a long way to paying back the investment in the project). 110 South First St. 815-909 - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Clint Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering So, about $750-$900 per month? Anyone on the list have a POP in Chicago to share bandwidth (and bandwidth costs!) with Mike? You may want to call around again on that. You can definitely get a quad bonded T1 up there, I'd imagine for about $1,200 a month; if you have any good metro E providers, you can probably get 5 megs for about $800 or so that would be a lot more accomidating than your current setup. What's the address and npa/nxx of your pop? Thanks, -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies On 9/5/07, Mike Hammett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: $150 for a meg, though I've routinely hit 5 or 6 megs. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Clint Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering > Call me stupid, but, don't screw around with your upstream. Get good > reliable connections, don't get fancier than you have to, don't bother > with > VPNs, etc... > > If you want to save money and you have scale (minumum 10-25Mb/s, > 100Mb/s > definitely), get the bandwidth directly from a carrier and supply your own > pipes. But, go with a good carrier and get a good pipe. > > If smaller, at least get good upstream providers. I can't imagine a cost > cheap enough to entice me to start jerryrigging the connection that I'm > relying on for my entire customer base > > You spend too much time and money building your network and your customer > base to kill it over a few hundred a month. If you're too strapped for > cash > to get "good connections", spend the time growing revenue (ie > sales/marketing) rather than cutting costs... > > -Clint Ricker > Kentnis Technology > > > On 9/5/07, Jeff Broadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's >> provider's NOC? >> >> Jeff >> >> -Original Message- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> On >> Behalf Of David E. Smith >> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM >> To: WISPA General List >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering >> >> Mike Hammett wrote: >> > They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it. >> >> They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is one >> big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep. >> >> If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want to >> BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you have >> your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position. >> >> > I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second >> > upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP >> > provides. I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify >> > something that big. >> >> As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't be >> a >> problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either be >> multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get an >> ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork >> ready.) >> >> Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable >> to >> get >> a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means >> renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it needs >> to >> be done anyway. A
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
So, about $750-$900 per month? Anyone on the list have a POP in Chicago to share bandwidth (and bandwidth costs!) with Mike? You may want to call around again on that. You can definitely get a quad bonded T1 up there, I'd imagine for about $1,200 a month; if you have any good metro E providers, you can probably get 5 megs for about $800 or so that would be a lot more accomidating than your current setup. What's the address and npa/nxx of your pop? Thanks, -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies On 9/5/07, Mike Hammett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > $150 for a meg, though I've routinely hit 5 or 6 megs. > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > - Original Message - > From: "Clint Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering > > > > Call me stupid, but, don't screw around with your upstream. Get good > > reliable connections, don't get fancier than you have to, don't bother > > with > > VPNs, etc... > > > > If you want to save money and you have scale (minumum 10-25Mb/s, 100Mb/s > > definitely), get the bandwidth directly from a carrier and supply your > own > > pipes. But, go with a good carrier and get a good pipe. > > > > If smaller, at least get good upstream providers. I can't imagine a > cost > > cheap enough to entice me to start jerryrigging the connection that I'm > > relying on for my entire customer base > > > > You spend too much time and money building your network and your > customer > > base to kill it over a few hundred a month. If you're too strapped for > > cash > > to get "good connections", spend the time growing revenue (ie > > sales/marketing) rather than cutting costs... > > > > -Clint Ricker > > Kentnis Technology > > > > > > On 9/5/07, Jeff Broadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's > >> provider's NOC? > >> > >> Jeff > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > >> Behalf Of David E. Smith > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM > >> To: WISPA General List > >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering > >> > >> Mike Hammett wrote: > >> > They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it. > >> > >> They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is > one > >> big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep. > >> > >> If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want > to > >> BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you > have > >> your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position. > >> > >> > I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second > >> > upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP > >> > provides. I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify > >> > something that big. > >> > >> As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't > be > >> a > >> problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either > be > >> multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get > an > >> ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork > >> ready.) > >> > >> Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable to > >> get > >> a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means > >> renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it > needs > >> to > >> be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four > >> /24s, > >> or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal. > >> > >> > I > >> > certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice. I envision the > VPN > >> > endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between > my > >> > endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network. > >> > >> Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with > >> double-billed traffic. > >> > >> Suppose the
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
$150 for a meg, though I've routinely hit 5 or 6 megs. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Clint Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering Call me stupid, but, don't screw around with your upstream. Get good reliable connections, don't get fancier than you have to, don't bother with VPNs, etc... If you want to save money and you have scale (minumum 10-25Mb/s, 100Mb/s definitely), get the bandwidth directly from a carrier and supply your own pipes. But, go with a good carrier and get a good pipe. If smaller, at least get good upstream providers. I can't imagine a cost cheap enough to entice me to start jerryrigging the connection that I'm relying on for my entire customer base You spend too much time and money building your network and your customer base to kill it over a few hundred a month. If you're too strapped for cash to get "good connections", spend the time growing revenue (ie sales/marketing) rather than cutting costs... -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technology On 9/5/07, Jeff Broadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's provider's NOC? Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering Mike Hammett wrote: > They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it. They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is one big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep. If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want to BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you have your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position. > I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second > upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP > provides. I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify > something that big. As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't be a problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either be multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get an ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork ready.) Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable to get a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it needs to be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four /24s, or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal. > I > certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice. I envision the VPN > endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my > endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network. Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with double-billed traffic. Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their upstream (and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. One of your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in from "the rest of the Internet", through that switch, to your VPN box (there's one trip), gets VPN'd up, goes back out through that switch (second trip), and across the switch to your immediate upstream (there's a third trip). If you can get it wired up in parallel with your upstream, so it comes in through that switch and goes out to your upstream, you may be able to avoid that kind of double-billing, assuming you're billed by the bit for traffic in the first place. Of course, if they were clever enough to do that, they'd probably also be clever enough to handle BGP natively and you wouldn't have to do this whole VPN song-and-dance routine. :) David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/l
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
I suppose another idea is to just have both routers on that same flat network. One is on my tower and the other in my provider's demarc with his upstream. I get an IP block from the upstream through my provider and carve out a /30 out of that to link both of my routers. Not knowing where\how my upstream rate limits makes planning where\how to place my router difficult. The VPN idea came from the fact that I wouldn't have to worry about keeping both routers on the same broadcast domain. I would then pass through existing rate-limiting equipment, etc. I guess I really wouldn't know until I sat down with them to hammer this out. Until I'm ready for BGP, I suppose this also could be used to pass through IP blocks without having to change anything on my provider. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA List" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 9:41 AM Subject: [WISPA] BGP Engineering My upstream isn't very routing friendly. They're also having some issues, but I believe they'll have it figured out soon. A VPN over their network solves all the current issues. Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change their whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough where I imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over their network so I can do BGP. Thoughts? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
Call me stupid, but, don't screw around with your upstream. Get good reliable connections, don't get fancier than you have to, don't bother with VPNs, etc... If you want to save money and you have scale (minumum 10-25Mb/s, 100Mb/s definitely), get the bandwidth directly from a carrier and supply your own pipes. But, go with a good carrier and get a good pipe. If smaller, at least get good upstream providers. I can't imagine a cost cheap enough to entice me to start jerryrigging the connection that I'm relying on for my entire customer base You spend too much time and money building your network and your customer base to kill it over a few hundred a month. If you're too strapped for cash to get "good connections", spend the time growing revenue (ie sales/marketing) rather than cutting costs... -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technology On 9/5/07, Jeff Broadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's > provider's NOC? > > Jeff > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of David E. Smith > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering > > Mike Hammett wrote: > > They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it. > > They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is one > big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep. > > If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want to > BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you have > your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position. > > > I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second > > upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP > > provides. I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify > > something that big. > > As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't be > a > problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either be > multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get an > ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork > ready.) > > Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable to > get > a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means > renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it needs > to > be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four > /24s, > or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal. > > > I > > certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice. I envision the VPN > > endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my > > endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network. > > Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with > double-billed traffic. > > Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their upstream > (and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. One of > your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in from "the rest of the > Internet", through that switch, to your VPN box (there's one trip), gets > VPN'd up, goes back out through that switch (second trip), and across the > switch to your immediate upstream (there's a third trip). > > If you can get it wired up in parallel with your upstream, so it comes in > through that switch and goes out to your upstream, you may be able to > avoid > that kind of double-billing, assuming you're billed by the bit for traffic > in the first place. Of course, if they were clever enough to do that, > they'd > probably also be clever enough to handle BGP natively and you wouldn't > have > to do this whole VPN song-and-dance routine. :) > > David Smith > MVN.net > > > > > ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at > ISPCON ** > ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** > ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** > ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** > ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at > http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > > > WISPA Wirele
RE: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
Would it be possible to bridge to the remote box on the provider's provider's NOC? Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering Mike Hammett wrote: > They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it. They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is one big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep. If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want to BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you have your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position. > I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second > upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP > provides. I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify > something that big. As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't be a problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either be multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get an ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork ready.) Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable to get a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it needs to be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four /24s, or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal. > I > certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice. I envision the VPN > endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my > endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network. Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with double-billed traffic. Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their upstream (and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. One of your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in from "the rest of the Internet", through that switch, to your VPN box (there's one trip), gets VPN'd up, goes back out through that switch (second trip), and across the switch to your immediate upstream (there's a third trip). If you can get it wired up in parallel with your upstream, so it comes in through that switch and goes out to your upstream, you may be able to avoid that kind of double-billing, assuming you're billed by the bit for traffic in the first place. Of course, if they were clever enough to do that, they'd probably also be clever enough to handle BGP natively and you wouldn't have to do this whole VPN song-and-dance routine. :) David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
There is no routing at all anywhere on their network. It's a single broadcast domain with a single router at their upstream. Their upstream does have internal routing. I can obviously route through to the Internet if I'm posting here. My upstream's upstream has AboveNet and recently added AT&T. One of the upstreams I'm looking at has Verizon and Level(3). I would hire someone to tune the BGP settings for optimal performance, price, reliability, etc. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering Mike Hammett wrote: They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it. That doesn't make any sense. If you are buying DIA then they need to route everywhere. I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP provides. I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify something that big. While you do get redundancy out of BGP you don't necessarily get increased performance. Depending on who you BGP peer with you could actually decrease your performance if you don't know what you are doing. I'm not sure what kind of great deal you have worked out, but if your upstream isn't routing you correctly then it might not be a worthwhile deal. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
Mike Hammett wrote: They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it. They have to route something somewhere, unless their whole network is one big flat thing, and that just makes me want to weep. If you're presently using their IP addresses, they probably don't want to BGP-peer with you for a host of sound technical reasons. If/when you have your own IP allocation, they may well reconsider that position. I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP provides. I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify something that big. As long as you're planning to do so in the near future, that shouldn't be a problem. (The current ARIN guidelines basically say you have to either be multihomed, or intend to be multihomed in the next thirty days, to get an ASN. They're pretty serious about that, so have plenty of paperwork ready.) Just to avoid weird routing filters and such, it's usually advisable to get a direct IP allocation at or about the same time. Yes, this means renumbering your network. No, it's not fun, but in the long-term it needs to be done anyway. As long as you're presently using most of a /22 (four /24s, or about 1000 IPs) that shouldn't be a big deal. I certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice. I envision the VPN endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network. Depending on network topology, though, you may still have to cope with double-billed traffic. Suppose there's a switch somewhere, to which your upstream, their upstream (and the rest of the Internet), and your VPN box are all connected. One of your customers loads a Web page. The page comes in from "the rest of the Internet", through that switch, to your VPN box (there's one trip), gets VPN'd up, goes back out through that switch (second trip), and across the switch to your immediate upstream (there's a third trip). If you can get it wired up in parallel with your upstream, so it comes in through that switch and goes out to your upstream, you may be able to avoid that kind of double-billing, assuming you're billed by the bit for traffic in the first place. Of course, if they were clever enough to do that, they'd probably also be clever enough to handle BGP natively and you wouldn't have to do this whole VPN song-and-dance routine. :) David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
Mike Hammett wrote: They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it. That doesn't make any sense. If you are buying DIA then they need to route everywhere. I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP provides. I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify something that big. While you do get redundancy out of BGP you don't necessarily get increased performance. Depending on who you BGP peer with you could actually decrease your performance if you don't know what you are doing. I'm not sure what kind of great deal you have worked out, but if your upstream isn't routing you correctly then it might not be a worthwhile deal. -Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
Imagestream routers have a lot of beef. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "David E. Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering Mike Hammett wrote: Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change their whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough where I imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over their network so I can do BGP. So you have your own direct IP allocation from ARIN, but no way to connect it to the rest of the Internet? Unless and until you talk with their upstream, it's all academic. They'll have to peer with you, and probably talk to everyone they peer with (to get route filters updated and so forth). Unless you have really complex network needs, or you're multihomed, there's not much benefit to running your own BGP peer. Have you considered just asking your immediate upstream to do your BGP announcements for you under their ASN? (I assume they're already running BGP for their own network. If not, things get even more weird and complicated.) The "tunnel your whole network through a VPN" option would probably work, but you'll need a lot of CPU, depending on how big your network is. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
They don't route at all anywhere and have no intention of it. I was getting ready to get my own ASN so I could bring in a second upstream for the redundancy and increased performance that BGP provides. I don't yet have my own block as I can't yet justify something that big. I would have to work out the details with how its done with my provider and his provider. I'm just out to see if its a viable option. I certainly wouldn't want to pay for anything twice. I envision the VPN endpoint being at my provider's provider, so the only thing between my endpoint and my network is my immediate upstream's network. I am currently pretty small and am getting a great deal from my upstream (aside from the lack of routing). I am outside of the Chicago metro area. I am looking at building fiber into the CO to tie in with other providers as my secondary route. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Clint Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering What do you mean by not "routing friendly"? Do you mean that they don't provide BGP peering? Or, that they just don't really know what they are doing... Unless you have multiple upstream connections, there is (rarely) any reason to do BGP peering yourself. If you have your own ARIN block, most upstream providers will announce it for you and route the traffic accordingly. Where are/would you be doing the VPN? This is an expensive route, since it does mean that you are paying twice for traffic--once through your upstream provider, again through the VPN endpoint (depending on your routing this could actually be triple). Especially given that you seem to be in close proximity to Chicago, your best value / option is likely to get Internet access in a data center and then get some sort of loop without Internet from the data center to your network... Most likely some sort of metro-ethernet product is usually the most cost effective if you're dealing with 100Mb/s or more, smaller connections change the economics drastically... Clint Ricker -Kentnis Tecnologies On 9/5/07, Mike Hammett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: My upstream isn't very routing friendly. They're also having some issues, but I believe they'll have it figured out soon. A VPN over their network solves all the current issues. Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change their whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough where I imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over their network so I can do BGP. Thoughts? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
Mike Hammett wrote: Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change their whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough where I imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over their network so I can do BGP. So you have your own direct IP allocation from ARIN, but no way to connect it to the rest of the Internet? Unless and until you talk with their upstream, it's all academic. They'll have to peer with you, and probably talk to everyone they peer with (to get route filters updated and so forth). Unless you have really complex network needs, or you're multihomed, there's not much benefit to running your own BGP peer. Have you considered just asking your immediate upstream to do your BGP announcements for you under their ASN? (I assume they're already running BGP for their own network. If not, things get even more weird and complicated.) The "tunnel your whole network through a VPN" option would probably work, but you'll need a lot of CPU, depending on how big your network is. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BGP Engineering
What do you mean by not "routing friendly"? Do you mean that they don't provide BGP peering? Or, that they just don't really know what they are doing... Unless you have multiple upstream connections, there is (rarely) any reason to do BGP peering yourself. If you have your own ARIN block, most upstream providers will announce it for you and route the traffic accordingly. Where are/would you be doing the VPN? This is an expensive route, since it does mean that you are paying twice for traffic--once through your upstream provider, again through the VPN endpoint (depending on your routing this could actually be triple). Especially given that you seem to be in close proximity to Chicago, your best value / option is likely to get Internet access in a data center and then get some sort of loop without Internet from the data center to your network... Most likely some sort of metro-ethernet product is usually the most cost effective if you're dealing with 100Mb/s or more, smaller connections change the economics drastically... Clint Ricker -Kentnis Tecnologies On 9/5/07, Mike Hammett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > My upstream isn't very routing friendly. They're also having some issues, > but I believe they'll have it figured out soon. A VPN over their network > solves all the current issues. > > Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change > their whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough where > I imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over their > network so I can do BGP. > > Thoughts? > > > - > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > > > > ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at > ISPCON ** > ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** > ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** > ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** > ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at > http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] BGP Engineering
My upstream isn't very routing friendly. They're also having some issues, but I believe they'll have it figured out soon. A VPN over their network solves all the current issues. Being as though they aren't routing friendly (and don't want to change their whole network to be routing friendly), they are flexible enough where I imagine that I could put a box at their upstream and VPN over their network so I can do BGP. Thoughts? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
