Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
It has an adaptive mode which does both.
Mark
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:31 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
Dual polarity as in you are horizontal and vertical.
Or as in the nano will do either polarity?
As far as I know the nano does either (software switchable) not both.
But, it would not be the first time I was wrong.
Brian
Charles Wyble wrote:
The NS2 is dual polarity.
Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as
clients.
So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real
world indication of AP selection and coverage area.
Tom DeReggi wrote:
well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary
question of
polarity.
Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
- Original Message -
From: "Charles Wyble"
<mailto:char...@thewybles.com>
To: "WISPA General List"
<mailto:wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide
coverage to an
entire strip mall. Google earth it:
229 Main Street
El Segundo, CA 90245
is where I deployed the AP.
It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire
mall, plus
across the street in all 4 directions.
Tom DeReggi wrote:
Over the years, there have been many theories
and strategies regarding
what
polarity is best to use for various purposes.
As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But,
I wanted to get an
updated
opinion based on field trials of others, for the
following
application
Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot
Specs...
1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2
mile.
2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available
Networks", via laptop's
WIFI
card.
3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash
screen to user, will
display
instruction for ordering higher gain antenna
self-install kit for inside
their window mount or balcony.
4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel
(60 deg?), with an EIRP
of
36db.
The goal here is enabling residential users
to find the ISP's AP on
their own.
So my questions are
1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used
at the AP, Is it likely
the
consumer will equally be able to find your AP,
compared to if it had been
verical pol'd?
The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is
much lower in the
particular
area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise
from consumer APs that
ship
with vert pol antennas, where end users by
default will stick the
antennas
straight up in Verticle pol position.
2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets
to the end user, is it
received in multiple polarities, based on all
the reflections in end
users
home and stuff?
3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no
polarity", and pick up Horizontal
as
good as verticle signals?
4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol
antennas in some cases,
expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or
are most laptops starting
to
embed ve
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
I was using default settings. I'll login to it and look later today and let you guys know. Brian Rohrbacher wrote: > Dual polarity as in you are horizontal and vertical. > > Or as in the nano will do either polarity? > > As far as I know the nano does either (software switchable) not both. > But, it would not be the first time I was wrong. > > Brian > > Charles Wyble wrote: >> The NS2 is dual polarity. >> >> Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as >> clients. >> >> So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real >> world indication of AP selection and coverage area. >> >> >> >> Tom DeReggi wrote: >> >>> well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of >>> polarity. >>> >>> Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. >>> >>> Tom DeReggi >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>> >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> From: "Charles Wyble" >>> To: "WISPA General List" >>> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity >>> >>> >>> >>>> I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an >>>> entire strip mall. Google earth it: >>>> >>>> 229 Main Street >>>> El Segundo, CA 90245 >>>> >>>> is where I deployed the AP. >>>> >>>> It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus >>>> across the street in all 4 directions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom DeReggi wrote: >>>> >>>>> Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding >>>>> what >>>>> polarity is best to use for various purposes. >>>>> As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an >>>>> updated >>>>> opinion based on field trials of others, for the following >>>>> application >>>>> >>>>> Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot >>>>> Specs... >>>>> 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. >>>>> 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's >>>>> WIFI >>>>> card. >>>>> 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will >>>>> display >>>>> instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside >>>>> their window mount or balcony. >>>>> 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP >>>>> of >>>>> 36db. >>>>> >>>>> The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on >>>>> their own. >>>>> >>>>> So my questions are >>>>> >>>>> 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely >>>>> the >>>>> consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been >>>>> verical pol'd? >>>>> >>>>> The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the >>>>> particular >>>>> area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that >>>>> ship >>>>> with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the >>>>> antennas >>>>> straight up in Verticle pol position. >>>>> >>>>> 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it >>>>> received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end >>>>> users >>>>> home and stuff? >>>>> >>>>> 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal >>>>> as >>>>> good as verticle signals? >>>>> >>>>> 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, >>>>> expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting >>>>> to >>>>> embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? >>>>> >>>>> 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
Dual polarity as in you are horizontal and vertical. Or as in the nano will do either polarity? As far as I know the nano does either (software switchable) not both. But, it would not be the first time I was wrong. Brian Charles Wyble wrote: The NS2 is dual polarity. Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as clients. So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real world indication of AP selection and coverage area. Tom DeReggi wrote: well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of polarity. Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wyble" To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an entire strip mall. Google earth it: 229 Main Street El Segundo, CA 90245 is where I deployed the AP. It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus across the street in all 4 directions. Tom DeReggi wrote: Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test Tom DeReggi wrote: Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, from what it sounds like. I guess that should be clarified Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close proximit
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
The NS2 can be set to V-pol, H-pol or Adaptive. Charles Wyble wrote: The NS2 is dual polarity. Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as clients. So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real world indication of AP selection and coverage area. Tom DeReggi wrote: well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of polarity. Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wyble" To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an entire strip mall. Google earth it: 229 Main Street El Segundo, CA 90245 is where I deployed the AP. It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus across the street in all 4 directions. Tom DeReggi wrote: Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test Tom DeReggi wrote: Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, from what it sounds like. I guess that should be clarified Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with each other when there is additional gain a
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
The NS2 is dual polarity. Not sure what polarity the clients are. We get a lot of Iphones/Ipods as clients. So I haven't done any scientific studies, but wanted to give a real world indication of AP selection and coverage area. Tom DeReggi wrote: > well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of > polarity. > > Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > - Original Message - > From: "Charles Wyble" > To: "WISPA General List" > Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity > > >> I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an >> entire strip mall. Google earth it: >> >> 229 Main Street >> El Segundo, CA 90245 >> >> is where I deployed the AP. >> >> It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus >> across the street in all 4 directions. >> >> >> >> Tom DeReggi wrote: >>> Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding >>> what >>> polarity is best to use for various purposes. >>> As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an >>> updated >>> opinion based on field trials of others, for the following >>> application >>> >>> Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot >>> Specs... >>> 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. >>> 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's >>> WIFI >>> card. >>> 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will >>> display >>> instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside >>> their window mount or balcony. >>> 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP >>> of >>> 36db. >>> >>> The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on >>> their own. >>> >>> So my questions are >>> >>> 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely >>> the >>> consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been >>> verical pol'd? >>> >>> The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the >>> particular >>> area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that >>> ship >>> with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the >>> antennas >>> straight up in Verticle pol position. >>> >>> 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it >>> received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end >>> users >>> home and stuff? >>> >>> 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal >>> as >>> good as verticle signals? >>> >>> 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, >>> expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting >>> to >>> embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? >>> >>> 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, >>> when >>> they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of >>> ISPs Hotspots? >>> >>> In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is >>> significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their >>> sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot >>> because >>> they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle >>> pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? >>> >>> Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a >>> professional >>> install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their >>> laptop >>> or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot >>> self >>> subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but >>> purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable >>> more >>> people to play in the same spectrum) >>> >>> What have other's found? >>> >>> Tom DeReggi >>> RapidDSL
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
well thats interesting, but you didn't address the primary question of polarity. Or what polarity hotspot CPE devices generally see. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wyble" To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity >I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an > entire strip mall. Google earth it: > > 229 Main Street > El Segundo, CA 90245 > > is where I deployed the AP. > > It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus > across the street in all 4 directions. > > > > Tom DeReggi wrote: >> Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding >> what >> polarity is best to use for various purposes. >> As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an >> updated >> opinion based on field trials of others, for the following >> application >> >> Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot >> Specs... >> 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. >> 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's >> WIFI >> card. >> 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will >> display >> instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside >> their window mount or balcony. >> 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP >> of >> 36db. >> >> The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on >> their own. >> >> So my questions are >> >> 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely >> the >> consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been >> verical pol'd? >> >> The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the >> particular >> area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that >> ship >> with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the >> antennas >> straight up in Verticle pol position. >> >> 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it >> received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end >> users >> home and stuff? >> >> 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal >> as >> good as verticle signals? >> >> 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, >> expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting >> to >> embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? >> >> 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, >> when >> they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of >> ISPs Hotspots? >> >> In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is >> significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their >> sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot >> because >> they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle >> pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? >> >> Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a >> professional >> install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their >> laptop >> or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot >> self >> subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but >> purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable >> more >> people to play in the same spectrum) >> >> What have other's found? >> >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "George Rogato" >> To: "WISPA General List" >> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test >> >> >>> Tom DeReggi wrote: >>>> Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had >>>> their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail >>>> interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, >>>> from what it sounds like. >>>> >>>> I
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
Oh, and in response to question #5, our typical hotspot users, I guess really all of our users, barely know how to get signed on, much less have any clue about antenna polarity. We get the rare one that is very savvy on this, but for the most part, our users are still pretty much in the dark as to differences in polarity, technologies, etc etc. All they know is whether or not they can sign on, and if they can get on, what speeds they are getting, how fast they get their email, and how reliable their gaming and video is :-) -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test > Tom DeReggi wrote: >> Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had >> their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail >> interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, >> from what it sounds like. >> >> I guess that should be clarified >> >> Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, >> was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? >> >> >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> > > Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close > proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with > each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them? > > You would think there would be even more self interference with high > gain antennas than with no antennas > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signu
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
The last time I did some searching on this, I figured out that many laptops are actually dual-pol. In realistic testing, I've taken the laptop to some of my vertical and horizontal AP's, turned it sideways, upside down, etc etc and really get no difference in db. Now, this is on my Dell Latitude with an integrated Intel card. I get better reception out of it than most other people I know for some reason. Have also done this with a PCMCIA card and have also not see much difference in reception. I'm sure others may vary on this, but from what I've found, with Hotspot level access straight from the laptop there is no noticeable difference from either Polarity. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test > Tom DeReggi wrote: >> Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had >> their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail >> interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, >> from what it sounds like. >> >> I guess that should be clarified >> >> Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, >> was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? >> >> >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> > > Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close > proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with > each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them? > > You would think there would be even more self interference with high > gain antennas than with no antennas &g
Re: [WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
I found that with a NanoStation2 I was able to provide coverage to an entire strip mall. Google earth it: 229 Main Street El Segundo, CA 90245 is where I deployed the AP. It's a fairly standard strip mall. I covered the entire mall, plus across the street in all 4 directions. Tom DeReggi wrote: > Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what > polarity is best to use for various purposes. > As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated > opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application > > Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot > Specs... > 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. > 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's WIFI > card. > 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display > instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside > their window mount or balcony. > 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of > 36db. > > The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on > their own. > > So my questions are > > 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the > consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been > verical pol'd? > > The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular > area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship > with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas > straight up in Verticle pol position. > > 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it > received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users > home and stuff? > > 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal as > good as verticle signals? > > 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, > expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to > embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? > > 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when > they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of > ISPs Hotspots? > > In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is > significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their > sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because > they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle > pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? > > Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional > install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop > or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self > subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but > purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more > people to play in the same spectrum) > > What have other's found? > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > - Original Message - > From: "George Rogato" > To: "WISPA General List" > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test > > >> Tom DeReggi wrote: >>> Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had >>> their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail >>> interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, >>> from what it sounds like. >>> >>> I guess that should be clarified >>> >>> Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, >>> was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? >>> >>> >>> Tom DeReggi >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>> >>> >>> >> Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close >> proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with >> each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them? >> >> You would think there would be even more self interference with high >> gain antennas than with no antennas >> >> >> >> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless
[WISPA] WAN HotSpot and Polarity
Over the years, there have been many theories and strategies regarding what polarity is best to use for various purposes. As an engineer, I as well have my theories. But, I wanted to get an updated opinion based on field trials of others, for the following application Application... 2.4Ghz WAN WIFI HotSpot Specs... 1) Average sub located within 100 yards to 1/2 mile. 2) Find and Subscribe by "Search for available Networks", via laptop's WIFI card. 3) If RF signal good enough to get a web splash screen to user, will display instruction for ordering higher gain antenna self-install kit for inside their window mount or balcony. 4) Access Point would likely use a sector panel (60 deg?), with an EIRP of 36db. The goal here is enabling residential users to find the ISP's AP on their own. So my questions are 1. If a Horizontally polarized antenna is used at the AP, Is it likely the consumer will equally be able to find your AP, compared to if it had been verical pol'd? The idea being, horizontal pol's noise floor is much lower in the particular area, and more likely ISP will avoid the noise from consumer APs that ship with vert pol antennas, where end users by default will stick the antennas straight up in Verticle pol position. 2. By the time the ISP's horizontal signal gets to the end user, is it received in multiple polarities, based on all the reflections in end users home and stuff? 3. Are laptop wifi cards typically "no polarity", and pick up Horizontal as good as verticle signals? 4. Laptops would appear to have Horizontal pol antennas in some cases, expecially if a PCMCIA card. Is this true? Or are most laptops starting to embed verticle pol antennas on the sides of screens? 5. Are End Users getting savy enough to move their laptop all around, when they first take it out of the box, to try and find Horizontal pol APs of ISPs Hotspots? In summary If doing Hotspot WAN deployment, and Verticle noise is significantly higher, will an ISP be doing a smart thing putting their sector on Horiz pol to avoid noise, or shooting themself in the foot because they'll be sending a signal cross pol to the average end user's verticle pol's Wifi card, taking a 20db hit off the bat? Sure Horizontal will be better, if the the consumer gets a professional install, or learns to put an external horizontal pol antenna on their laptop or PC. But most people may not know to do that, by default, for hotspot self subscription. (PS. recognize could use dual pol or 45deg off pol, but purposely avoiding that, to try not to interfere with others, to enable more people to play in the same spectrum) What have other's found? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB333/433 eliminating self-interference test > Tom DeReggi wrote: >> Good point but. the problem went away when the mcpi cards each had >> their own SBC/Case, this would infer card to card or pigtail to pigtail >> interference, since in all cases the dummy load was outside the cases, >> from what it sounds like. >> >> I guess that should be clarified >> >> Kurt, when you tested with teh RB600 and 3 cards on the adjacent slots, >> was the RB600 also in a case with the holes metal taped? >> >> >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> > > Question I have that should debunk that theory that cards in close > proximity interfere with each other. Why do the cards not interfere with > each other when there is additional gain antennas hooked on to them? > > You would think there would be even more self interference with high > gain antennas than with no antennas > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
