Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
That sounds extremely painful. I cannot imagine deploying a solution that 97+% of laptops cannot use directly. -- Hunter Fuller OIT Sent from my phone. On May 13, 2015 8:25 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3 years?). I believe this can all best be summarized with a simple .. Oy. -Brian *From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Jerkan, Kristijan *Sent:* Sunday, May 03, 2015 12:34 PM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... As a public institution in the EDU sector we always had a byod policy in our dorm network, specifically including „anything You want to connect to the port in Your room“. Parameters: -5k+ dorm rooms (1.8k the largest segment, 20 the smallest) -120km radius -at least one (mostly two) RJ45 port per room (cat5-7 to the switch, fiber afterwards) -10/100MBit ports (deliberatly did not go for 1GBit at the edge) -no additional accounting, just dhcp with opt82 -public ips behind reflexive acl (no shaping, etc.) -uplink via the federal research network -service neutral (whoever wants to can use a DSL provider also/instead and may use the inhouse cable from their basement to their room for it) -one service number (fixed number, forwarded to five cellphones – whoever picks up first wins) -managed by ~10 students (pro bono, but with a couple of incentives) That beeing said, here are a few points why this works for us and is not generally applicable: -people have to work together to archive common goals (state, local, university and dorm administration – technical and administrative staff) -it does not take much to put a service neutral CAT cable into every room while they are beeing built/renovated instead of a cheaper telephone cable, but it does take a joint effort and common goals -to every dorm room there is a rent/contract, so we know who is „behind“ it and can make one specific person liable (opt82) -there are only single-bed rooms (this is a cultural thing and different than in the US, I guess noone around here would even rent a shared room) -almost no dorms are adjacent to the classrooms/labs (seamless wireless coverage/services wouldn’t be possible anyway) -in order to find enough students (5 for the core team) who will do the occasionally needed actual work without payment, a balance between demands and incentives is important Effect: -very low capex and extremly low opex for the dorm network [numbers only off list] -very limited support calls (maybe 2/week; maybe 10-20 during the move-in-phase, mostly students from the states asking about the non-existant login/pw) -no need to worry about deprication
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3 years?). I believe this can all best be summarized with a simple .. Oy. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerkan, Kristijan Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 12:34 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... As a public institution in the EDU sector we always had a byod policy in our dorm network, specifically including „anything You want to connect to the port in Your room“. Parameters: -5k+ dorm rooms (1.8k the largest segment, 20 the smallest) -120km radius -at least one (mostly two) RJ45 port per room (cat5-7 to the switch, fiber afterwards) -10/100MBit ports (deliberatly did not go for 1GBit at the edge) -no additional accounting, just dhcp with opt82 -public ips behind reflexive acl (no shaping, etc.) -uplink via the federal research network -service neutral (whoever wants to can use a DSL provider also/instead and may use the inhouse cable from their basement to their room for it) -one service number (fixed number, forwarded to five cellphones – whoever picks up first wins) -managed by ~10 students (pro bono, but with a couple of incentives) That beeing said, here are a few points why this works for us and is not generally applicable: -people have to work together to archive common goals (state, local, university and dorm administration – technical and administrative staff) -it does not take much to put a service neutral CAT cable into every room while they are beeing built/renovated instead of a cheaper telephone cable, but it does take a joint effort and common goals -to every dorm room there is a rent/contract, so we know who is „behind“ it and can make one specific person liable (opt82) -there are only single-bed rooms (this is a cultural thing and different than in the US, I guess noone around here would even rent a shared room) -almost no dorms are adjacent to the classrooms/labs (seamless wireless coverage/services wouldn’t be possible anyway) -in order to find enough students (5 for the core team) who will do the occasionally needed actual work without payment, a balance between demands and incentives is important Effect: -very low capex and extremly low opex for the dorm network [numbers only off list] -very limited support calls (maybe 2/week; maybe 10-20 during the move-in-phase, mostly students from the states asking about the non-existant login/pw) -no need to worry about deprication charges or every new feature (regarding wireless: ABG to N to AC; MIMO, fequency analysis chipsets; 2.4ghz to 5ghz, wave2) -the least administrative overhead possible -none of the students in our networking team had problems finding jobs after they left (no trouble finding volunteers, very long participation period) -scalabe system; got us from
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
An article I found about LTE replacing services it isn't wifi but it gives a detailed account of how LTE connection was tested. It isn't directly related to higher ed applications but it give a good account of the impact of congestion on an LTE service. http://www.networkworld.com/article/2226079/wireless/how-i-replaced-wired-internet-with-4g-lte.html CHRISTOPHER ALLISON Network Engineer I Information Technology Mail Code 4622 625 Wham Drive Carbondale, Illinois 62901 chris.m.alli...@siu.edumailto:%20chris.m.alli...@siu.edu P: 618 / 453 - 8415 F: 618 / 453 - 5261 INFOTECH.SIU.EDUhttp://infotech.siu.edu/ [http://asset.siu.edu/_assets/images/email_sig/SIU_email_2line.gif] Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life. Confucius From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of Hunter Fuller hf0...@uah.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 8:36 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... That sounds extremely painful. I cannot imagine deploying a solution that 97+% of laptops cannot use directly. -- Hunter Fuller OIT Sent from my phone. On May 13, 2015 8:25 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edumailto:bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3 years?). I believe this can all best be summarized with a simple .. Oy. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerkan, Kristijan Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 12:34 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... As a public institution in the EDU sector we always had a byod policy in our dorm network, specifically including „anything You want to connect to the port in Your room“. Parameters: -5k+ dorm rooms (1.8k the largest segment, 20 the smallest) -120km radius -at least one (mostly two) RJ45 port per room (cat5-7 to the switch, fiber afterwards) -10/100MBit ports (deliberatly did not go for 1GBit at the edge) -no additional accounting, just dhcp with opt82 -public ips behind reflexive acl (no shaping, etc.) -uplink via the federal research network -service neutral (whoever wants to can use a DSL provider also/instead and may use the inhouse cable from their basement to their room for it) -one service number (fixed number, forwarded to five cellphones – whoever picks up first wins) -managed by ~10 students (pro bono, but with a couple of incentives) That beeing said, here are a few points why this works for us and is not generally applicable: -people have to work together to archive common goals (state,
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
Philippe, I see value in 802.11ac running on 40MHz channels. It still plays nice with N and the performance, though negligible, is still better. The biggest complaint that I have about AC is that management hears the sales pitch about how awesome it is at 80MHz and how it will solve all of our problems and they decree that it will be so. In reality it will only make things worse for us. We still run APs down the hall at full power (predecessor’s decision on the power) and we have an Airport less than 5 miles away. We completed that phase of the upgrade in December… we’ve been trying to fix problems ever since. Just my 2 cents. Respectfully, Matthew Williams IT Manager, Wireless Kent State University Office: (330) 672-7246 Mobile: (330) 469-0445 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 10:21 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... So the Cellular industry is having seminars and investing big on Wi-Fi offload and some schools are considering LTE offload, what an irony. At the end of the day the cost of providing 1 byte over LTE is much higher than the cost 1 byte over Wi-Fi. (DAS, Microcell, MacroTower, all more expensive than Wi-Fi…and much more complicated as far as contracting is concerned) Before doing anything I would first analyze the average monthly bandwidth need of a student and then do a comparison between Wi-Fi cost over 5-8 years VS LTE cost (with comparable quality of service). And BTW, why do we all need to upgrade to 802.11ac? (802.11n seems perfectly fine to me) Because premature EOL is coming upon us? On another note, having a low capacity/expensive Data Wireless in residence halls might have interesting side effects: -Students will watch their shows in class rather at night -Students will start reading books again in their rooms -Students will hang around campus late at night just to have Wi-Fi access (do you plan to shutdown campus Wi-Fi after hours ? ;-) -Students will meet in hallways and talk to each other rather using Social Media -No need to filter peer-to-peer in residence halls, no one can afford to download anything But here my main concern…how will you enable eduroam on Cellular? ;-) Philippe Philippe Hanset www.eduroam.ushttp://www.eduroam.us On May 13, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edumailto:bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3 years?). I believe this can all best be summarized with a simple .. Oy. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU]On Behalf Of Jerkan, Kristijan Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 12:34 PM To:
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
Lee, All you need is a Smart-Phone with a HotSpot feature and a very large Data Quota. (I assume that’s what schools thinking about switching to LTE have in mind!) You can then do WPA2-PSK between your phone and your TV, your Game Console, ... Mongolians don’t have wireless in the plains, but they do have goats ... Philippe Philippe Hanset www.anyroam.net On May 13, 2015, at 10:59 AM, Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edu wrote: Does the carrier guarantee capacity at this scale? And does it matter that no game systems, TVs, etc can play any more? And… students have to use two distinct technologies depending on where they are on campus, and probably have to VPN in for certain operations from the dorm to campus? This sounds like an absolute goat rope (I believe Mongolians have another term for it). Lee Badman Wireless/Network Architect ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 (Blog: http://wirednot.wordpress.com http://wirednot.wordpress.com/) From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU]On Behalf Of Brian Helman Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 9:25 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3 years?). I believe this can all best be summarized with a simple .. Oy. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU]On Behalf Of Jerkan, Kristijan Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 12:34 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... As a public institution in the EDU sector we always had a byod policy in our dorm network, specifically including „anything You want to connect to the port in Your room“. Parameters: -5k+ dorm rooms (1.8k the largest segment, 20 the smallest) -120km radius -at least one (mostly two) RJ45 port per room (cat5-7 to the switch, fiber afterwards) -10/100MBit ports (deliberatly did not go for 1GBit at the edge) -no additional accounting, just dhcp with opt82 -public ips behind reflexive acl (no shaping, etc.) -uplink via the federal research network -service neutral (whoever wants to can use a DSL provider also/instead and may use the inhouse cable from their basement to their room for it) -one service number (fixed number, forwarded to five cellphones – whoever picks up first wins) -managed by ~10 students (pro bono, but with a couple of incentives) That beeing said, here are a few points why this
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
Seems like it doesn’t matter who is floating the radio waves, you or and LTE provider, you’ll still be on the hook for support, especially if vpn clients are running on all those client devices. Mongolians? I thought it was Monrovians Bruce Boardman Networking Syracuse University 315 412-4156 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:06 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... Lee, All you need is a Smart-Phone with a HotSpot feature and a very large Data Quota. (I assume that’s what schools thinking about switching to LTE have in mind!) You can then do WPA2-PSK between your phone and your TV, your Game Console, ... Mongolians don’t have wireless in the plains, but they do have goats ... Philippe Philippe Hanset www.anyroam.nethttp://www.anyroam.net On May 13, 2015, at 10:59 AM, Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edumailto:lhbad...@syr.edu wrote: Does the carrier guarantee capacity at this scale? And does it matter that no game systems, TVs, etc can play any more? And… students have to use two distinct technologies depending on where they are on campus, and probably have to VPN in for certain operations from the dorm to campus? This sounds like an absolute goat rope (I believe Mongolians have another term for it). Lee Badman Wireless/Network Architect ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 (Blog: http://wirednot.wordpress.comhttp://wirednot.wordpress.com/) From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU]On Behalf Of Brian Helman Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 9:25 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3 years?). I believe this can all best be summarized with a simple .. Oy. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU]On Behalf Of Jerkan, Kristijan Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 12:34 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... As a public institution in the EDU sector we always had a byod policy in our dorm network, specifically including „anything You want to connect to the port in Your room“. Parameters: -5k+ dorm rooms (1.8k the largest segment, 20 the smallest) -120km radius -at least one (mostly two) RJ45 port per room (cat5-7 to the switch, fiber afterwards) -10/100MBit ports (deliberatly did not go for 1GBit at the edge) -no additional accounting, just dhcp with
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
So the Cellular industry is having seminars and investing big on Wi-Fi offload and some schools are considering LTE offload, what an irony. At the end of the day the cost of providing 1 byte over LTE is much higher than the cost 1 byte over Wi-Fi. (DAS, Microcell, MacroTower, all more expensive than Wi-Fi…and much more complicated as far as contracting is concerned) Before doing anything I would first analyze the average monthly bandwidth need of a student and then do a comparison between Wi-Fi cost over 5-8 years VS LTE cost (with comparable quality of service). And BTW, why do we all need to upgrade to 802.11ac? (802.11n seems perfectly fine to me) Because premature EOL is coming upon us? On another note, having a low capacity/expensive Data Wireless in residence halls might have interesting side effects: -Students will watch their shows in class rather at night -Students will start reading books again in their rooms -Students will hang around campus late at night just to have Wi-Fi access (do you plan to shutdown campus Wi-Fi after hours ? ;-) -Students will meet in hallways and talk to each other rather using Social Media -No need to filter peer-to-peer in residence halls, no one can afford to download anything But here my main concern…how will you enable eduroam on Cellular? ;-) Philippe Philippe Hanset www.eduroam.us On May 13, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3 years?). I believe this can all best be summarized with a simple .. Oy. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU]On Behalf Of Jerkan, Kristijan Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 12:34 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... As a public institution in the EDU sector we always had a byod policy in our dorm network, specifically including „anything You want to connect to the port in Your room“. Parameters: -5k+ dorm rooms (1.8k the largest segment, 20 the smallest) -120km radius -at least one (mostly two) RJ45 port per room (cat5-7 to the switch, fiber afterwards) -10/100MBit ports (deliberatly did not go for 1GBit at the edge) -no additional accounting, just dhcp with opt82 -public ips behind reflexive acl (no shaping, etc.) -uplink via the federal research network -service neutral (whoever wants to can use a DSL provider also/instead and may use the inhouse cable from their basement to their room for it) -one service number (fixed number, forwarded to five cellphones – whoever picks up first wins) -managed by ~10 students (pro bono, but with a couple of incentives) That beeing
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
Matthew, I didn’t mean that 802.11ac is not better than 802.11n in many aspects, but more that many of us could live many more years with 802.11n and be quite fine especially if cost is an issue. Thanks, Philippe Philippe Hanset www.anyroam.net On May 13, 2015, at 10:38 AM, Williams, Matthew mwill...@kent.edu wrote: Philippe, I see value in 802.11ac running on 40MHz channels. It still plays nice with N and the performance, though negligible, is still better. The biggest complaint that I have about AC is that management hears the sales pitch about how awesome it is at 80MHz and how it will solve all of our problems and they decree that it will be so. In reality it will only make things worse for us. We still run APs down the hall at full power (predecessor’s decision on the power) and we have an Airport less than 5 miles away. We completed that phase of the upgrade in December… we’ve been trying to fix problems ever since. Just my 2 cents. Respectfully, Matthew Williams IT Manager, Wireless Kent State University Office: (330) 672-7246 Mobile: (330) 469-0445 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU]On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 10:21 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... So the Cellular industry is having seminars and investing big on Wi-Fi offload and some schools are considering LTE offload, what an irony. At the end of the day the cost of providing 1 byte over LTE is much higher than the cost 1 byte over Wi-Fi. (DAS, Microcell, MacroTower, all more expensive than Wi-Fi…and much more complicated as far as contracting is concerned) Before doing anything I would first analyze the average monthly bandwidth need of a student and then do a comparison between Wi-Fi cost over 5-8 years VS LTE cost (with comparable quality of service). And BTW, why do we all need to upgrade to 802.11ac? (802.11n seems perfectly fine to me) Because premature EOL is coming upon us? On another note, having a low capacity/expensive Data Wireless in residence halls might have interesting side effects: -Students will watch their shows in class rather at night -Students will start reading books again in their rooms -Students will hang around campus late at night just to have Wi-Fi access (do you plan to shutdown campus Wi-Fi after hours ? ;-) -Students will meet in hallways and talk to each other rather using Social Media -No need to filter peer-to-peer in residence halls, no one can afford to download anything But here my main concern…how will you enable eduroam on Cellular? ;-) Philippe Philippe Hanset www.eduroam.us http://www.eduroam.us/ On May 13, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edu mailto:bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
What is the motivation here? I ask because this sounds like a cost thing. It sounds like the President is looking at 3 hefty expenses: 1. Existing fixed line internet service 2. Wifi Upgrades 3. Staff support costs for Wifi services and is hoping to avoid all three of these by switching to an LTE/3G service. Suddenly the bulk of the fixed-line internet bill goes away, you don't have to pay for wifi upgrades, and support issues are just directed to the carrier, instead of institutional IT staff. Personally, I can't imagine the numbers possibly working out in your favor, given what I've seen of carrier LTE rates (even if it is just as a consumer). Pull up your logs and find out how much bandwidth you've used over a period of month. Then find out how much it would cost to purchase that data, and I expect that even the bulk rates will give the President sticker shock and make this whole thing go away. It may also be that cost is a side issue, and it's really about streamlining the student experience... suddenly internet access issues are a carrier issue, and even when students have problems they'll tend to direct their ill-will at the carrier instead of your institution, plus it gives IT the ability to function at a higher level, looking at capabilities and services more than day to day network support. But again, I think the cost here will orders of magnitude over what is expected. The day is coming when this kind of service will make sense, but we're not there yet. And it goes further than just bulk-purchasing LTE data. Just like now most wireless systems tunnel traffic to a controller appliance before terminating it on the university network, someday cellular services will tunnel traffic even from desktop computers to a leased service in the cloud, to create private institutional cellular networks, where none of the network infrastructure resides on campus. But that's a *long* way off yet. Joel Coehoorn Director of Information Technology 402.363.5603 *jcoeho...@york.edu jcoeho...@york.edu* The mission of York College is to transform lives through Christ-centered education and to equip students for lifelong service to God, family, and society On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Mark Elley mark.el...@bristol.ac.uk wrote: Hi Brian, If 3/4G is seriously being considered by senior management then before any decision is actually taken there should be a serious amount of testing (by them) - the term 'eating your own dogfood' springs to mind. I can't imagine using a mifi at home to stream Netflix or to download an Apple update, especially when the 2.4GHz spectrum will be terribly managed and the 3/4G network saturated by huge amounts of traffic. If they value customer satisfaction then there is no option but to invest in wireless IMHO. Good luck with the case. Mark Elley Residential Mobile IT Manager IT Services, University of Bristol On 13 May 2015 at 14:42, Christopher Michael Allison chris.m.alli...@siu.edu wrote: An article I found about LTE replacing services it isn't wifi but it gives a detailed account of how LTE connection was tested. It isn't directly related to higher ed applications but it give a good account of the impact of congestion on an LTE service. http://www.networkworld.com/article/2226079/wireless/how-i-replaced-wired-internet-with-4g-lte.html CHRISTOPHER ALLISON Network Engineer I Information Technology Mail Code 4622 625 Wham Drive Carbondale, Illinois 62901 chris.m.alli...@siu.edu +chris.m.alli...@siu.edu P: 618 / 453 - 8415 F: 618 / 453 - 5261 INFOTECH.SIU.EDU http://infotech.siu.edu/ *Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life.* Confucius -- *From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of Hunter Fuller hf0...@uah.edu *Sent:* Wednesday, May 13, 2015 8:36 AM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... That sounds extremely painful. I cannot imagine deploying a solution that 97+% of laptops cannot use directly. -- Hunter Fuller OIT Sent from my phone. On May 13, 2015 8:25 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
Does the carrier guarantee capacity at this scale? And does it matter that no game systems, TVs, etc can play any more? And… students have to use two distinct technologies depending on where they are on campus, and probably have to VPN in for certain operations from the dorm to campus? This sounds like an absolute goat rope (I believe Mongolians have another term for it). Lee Badman Wireless/Network Architect ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 (Blog: http://wirednot.wordpress.com) From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Helman Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 9:25 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3 years?). I believe this can all best be summarized with a simple .. Oy. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerkan, Kristijan Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 12:34 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... As a public institution in the EDU sector we always had a byod policy in our dorm network, specifically including „anything You want to connect to the port in Your room“. Parameters: -5k+ dorm rooms (1.8k the largest segment, 20 the smallest) -120km radius -at least one (mostly two) RJ45 port per room (cat5-7 to the switch, fiber afterwards) -10/100MBit ports (deliberatly did not go for 1GBit at the edge) -no additional accounting, just dhcp with opt82 -public ips behind reflexive acl (no shaping, etc.) -uplink via the federal research network -service neutral (whoever wants to can use a DSL provider also/instead and may use the inhouse cable from their basement to their room for it) -one service number (fixed number, forwarded to five cellphones – whoever picks up first wins) -managed by ~10 students (pro bono, but with a couple of incentives) That beeing said, here are a few points why this works for us and is not generally applicable: -people have to work together to archive common goals (state, local, university and dorm administration – technical and administrative staff) -it does not take much to put a service neutral CAT cable into every room while they are beeing built/renovated instead of a cheaper telephone cable, but it does take a joint effort and common goals -to every dorm room there is a rent/contract, so we know who is „behind“ it and can make one specific person liable (opt82) -there are only single-bed rooms (this is a cultural thing and different than in the US, I guess noone around here would even rent a shared room) -almost no dorms are adjacent to the classrooms/labs (seamless
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
Absolutely, agree. I think the push to AC is mostly a managerial/competitive advantage push. We get to deal with the ramifications. Respectfully, Matthew Williams IT Manager, Wireless Kent State University Office: (330) 672-7246 Mobile: (330) 469-0445 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 10:46 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... Matthew, I didn’t mean that 802.11ac is not better than 802.11n in many aspects, but more that many of us could live many more years with 802.11n and be quite fine especially if cost is an issue. Thanks, Philippe Philippe Hanset www.anyroam.nethttp://www.anyroam.net On May 13, 2015, at 10:38 AM, Williams, Matthew mwill...@kent.edumailto:mwill...@kent.edu wrote: Philippe, I see value in 802.11ac running on 40MHz channels. It still plays nice with N and the performance, though negligible, is still better. The biggest complaint that I have about AC is that management hears the sales pitch about how awesome it is at 80MHz and how it will solve all of our problems and they decree that it will be so. In reality it will only make things worse for us. We still run APs down the hall at full power (predecessor’s decision on the power) and we have an Airport less than 5 miles away. We completed that phase of the upgrade in December… we’ve been trying to fix problems ever since. Just my 2 cents. Respectfully, Matthew Williams IT Manager, Wireless Kent State University Office: (330) 672-7246 Mobile: (330) 469-0445 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU]On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 10:21 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... So the Cellular industry is having seminars and investing big on Wi-Fi offload and some schools are considering LTE offload, what an irony. At the end of the day the cost of providing 1 byte over LTE is much higher than the cost 1 byte over Wi-Fi. (DAS, Microcell, MacroTower, all more expensive than Wi-Fi…and much more complicated as far as contracting is concerned) Before doing anything I would first analyze the average monthly bandwidth need of a student and then do a comparison between Wi-Fi cost over 5-8 years VS LTE cost (with comparable quality of service). And BTW, why do we all need to upgrade to 802.11ac? (802.11n seems perfectly fine to me) Because premature EOL is coming upon us? On another note, having a low capacity/expensive Data Wireless in residence halls might have interesting side effects: -Students will watch their shows in class rather at night -Students will start reading books again in their rooms -Students will hang around campus late at night just to have Wi-Fi access (do you plan to shutdown campus Wi-Fi after hours ? ;-) -Students will meet in hallways and talk to each other rather using Social Media -No need to filter peer-to-peer in residence halls, no one can afford to download anything But here my main concern…how will you enable eduroam on Cellular? ;-) Philippe Philippe Hanset www.eduroam.ushttp://www.eduroam.us/ On May 13, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edumailto:bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
Oh yeah… me and all my friends on our channel 2 hotspots. Good times… especially when the local cell cripples and we’ve got so much CCI you can cut it with a knife! “Just call the carrier!” will go over real well with angry parents. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:06 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... Lee, All you need is a Smart-Phone with a HotSpot feature and a very large Data Quota. (I assume that’s what schools thinking about switching to LTE have in mind!) You can then do WPA2-PSK between your phone and your TV, your Game Console, ... Mongolians don’t have wireless in the plains, but they do have goats ... Philippe Philippe Hanset www.anyroam.nethttp://www.anyroam.net On May 13, 2015, at 10:59 AM, Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edumailto:lhbad...@syr.edu wrote: Does the carrier guarantee capacity at this scale? And does it matter that no game systems, TVs, etc can play any more? And… students have to use two distinct technologies depending on where they are on campus, and probably have to VPN in for certain operations from the dorm to campus? This sounds like an absolute goat rope (I believe Mongolians have another term for it). Lee Badman Wireless/Network Architect ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 (Blog: http://wirednot.wordpress.comhttp://wirednot.wordpress.com/) From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU]On Behalf Of Brian Helman Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 9:25 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3 years?). I believe this can all best be summarized with a simple .. Oy. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU]On Behalf Of Jerkan, Kristijan Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 12:34 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... As a public institution in the EDU sector we always had a byod policy in our dorm network, specifically including „anything You want to connect to the port in Your room“. Parameters: -5k+ dorm rooms (1.8k the largest segment, 20 the smallest) -120km radius -at least one (mostly two) RJ45 port per room (cat5-7 to the switch, fiber afterwards) -10/100MBit ports (deliberatly did not go for 1GBit at the edge) -no additional accounting, just dhcp with opt82 -public ips behind reflexive acl (no shaping, etc.)
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
John, I’ve often heard it said that wireless is important to recruiting and retention, but I’ve yet to find any solid foundation for the claim. This may be because those search terms in Google return so much unrelated information that the good data is hard to find, or it could be that the claim is tenuous. Can you point us to any sources to substantiate it? I’m skeptical, but open to evidence. It would definitely change the way I think about our wireless services in relation to business needs. Thanks, Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jon Young Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 4:43 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... We consult with many higher-ed institutions and the question your President has posed about buying bulk data is a real one that many institutions have looked into. We are frequently asked this question (same question for cellular when it is time to replace the phone system) when we assist schools with the network and WiFi strategy so I can tell you that if you define the some schools are investigating this by asking their independent consultants, that is true. If you are asking if it is remotely viable and if anyone is seriously pursuing it beyond asking the question, the answer as you expect is a resounding no for all the reasons others have articulated on this thread. That said, a couple of things to note: Many schools have chosen to successfully outsource their resnet including wireless (see the recent resnet report from ACUTA). That is sometimes by letting the local cable company come in and offer service in the residence halls and sometimes by outsourcing resnet to a company like Apogee. There are pros and cons to insourcing vs outsourcing resnet but I think it is reasonable to consider if that is the right choice for your institution. Of I think larger importance to your President - the quality of wireless internet is a key component of student recruitment and retention at many institutions. At the request of one Ivy, I even wrote an internal white paper justifying ubiquitous WiFi across campus based primarily on student recruitment and retention. I suggest speaking with your admissions group and getting their thoughts on the importance of high-quality wireless internet (define that how you like) in the res halls and the rest of campus. Good luck, Jon Young Vantage Technology Consulting Group. On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 9:24 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
We consult with many higher-ed institutions and the question your President has posed about buying bulk data is a real one that many institutions have looked into. We are frequently asked this question (same question for cellular when it is time to replace the phone system) when we assist schools with the network and WiFi strategy so I can tell you that if you define the some schools are investigating this by asking their independent consultants, that is true. If you are asking if it is remotely viable and if anyone is seriously pursuing it beyond asking the question, the answer as you expect is a resounding no for all the reasons others have articulated on this thread. That said, a couple of things to note: Many schools have chosen to successfully outsource their resnet including wireless (see the recent resnet report from ACUTA). That is sometimes by letting the local cable company come in and offer service in the residence halls and sometimes by outsourcing resnet to a company like Apogee. There are pros and cons to insourcing vs outsourcing resnet but I think it is reasonable to consider if that is the right choice for your institution. Of I think larger importance to your President - the quality of wireless internet is a key component of student recruitment and retention at many institutions. At the request of one Ivy, I even wrote an internal white paper justifying ubiquitous WiFi across campus based primarily on student recruitment and retention. I suggest speaking with your admissions group and getting their thoughts on the importance of high-quality wireless internet (define that how you like) in the res halls and the rest of campus. Good luck, Jon Young Vantage Technology Consulting Group. On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 9:24 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been unsuccessfully asking for funding for 3 years?). I believe this can all best be summarized with a simple .. Oy. -Brian *From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Jerkan, Kristijan *Sent:* Sunday, May 03, 2015 12:34 PM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... As a public institution in the EDU sector we always had a byod policy in our dorm network, specifically including „anything You want to connect to the port in Your room“. Parameters: -5k+ dorm rooms (1.8k the largest segment, 20 the smallest) -120km radius -at least one (mostly two) RJ45 port per room (cat5-7 to the switch, fiber afterwards) -10/100MBit ports (deliberatly did not go for 1GBit at the edge) -no additional accounting, just dhcp with opt82 -public ips behind reflexive acl (no shaping, etc.) -uplink via the federal research network -service neutral (whoever wants to can use a
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
Here’s a link to recent ACUTA report - 2015 FOURTH ANNUAL ACUTA/NACUBO/ACUHO-I STATE OF RESNET REPORT https://www.acuta.org/ACUTA/Member_Services/ResNet_Survey/ACUTA/MemberServices/ResNet_Survey.aspx?hkey=8c787ad7-6a85-4a23-9b8d-37dc26685a41 An infographic goes with it: https://www.acuta.org/acuta/pdf/041715a.pdf “BANDWIDTH WI-FI NOW A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE: To attract and retain students, more than half (51.5%) now dedicate at least 1 Gb vs 25.5% in 2012 specifically to the ResNet. More than 3 out of 5 schools now provide wireless to 81-100% of the campus” -Bob Bob Nilsson | Director of Solutions Marketing Extreme Networks Mobile: 978.269.4819 | Office: 603-952-5120 | www.extremenetworks.comhttp://www.extremenetworks.com/ Twitter: @RHNilsson From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jon Young Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 4:43 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... We consult with many higher-ed institutions and the question your President has posed about buying bulk data is a real one that many institutions have looked into. We are frequently asked this question (same question for cellular when it is time to replace the phone system) when we assist schools with the network and WiFi strategy so I can tell you that if you define the some schools are investigating this by asking their independent consultants, that is true. If you are asking if it is remotely viable and if anyone is seriously pursuing it beyond asking the question, the answer as you expect is a resounding no for all the reasons others have articulated on this thread. That said, a couple of things to note: Many schools have chosen to successfully outsource their resnet including wireless (see the recent resnet report from ACUTA). That is sometimes by letting the local cable company come in and offer service in the residence halls and sometimes by outsourcing resnet to a company like Apogee. There are pros and cons to insourcing vs outsourcing resnet but I think it is reasonable to consider if that is the right choice for your institution. Of I think larger importance to your President - the quality of wireless internet is a key component of student recruitment and retention at many institutions. At the request of one Ivy, I even wrote an internal white paper justifying ubiquitous WiFi across campus based primarily on student recruitment and retention. I suggest speaking with your admissions group and getting their thoughts on the importance of high-quality wireless internet (define that how you like) in the res halls and the rest of campus. Good luck, Jon Young Vantage Technology Consulting Group. On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 9:24 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edumailto:bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls and instead provide students with the abilities to register their devices with the mobile carrier to use 4G/LTE data. The University will pay for this. Pros: No wireless (802.11) to purchase, support Reduced POE requirements on switches No wireless driver/configuration mismatches problems to support Cons: Is mobile wireless signal available everywhere inside the buildings? Costs to improve signal. What speeds are available (what range of speeds)? Is it by user or aggregate? How is congestion handled? What devices – mobile phones only? Hotspots to provide access to non-cellular devices (e.g wifi-only tablets; laptops) More Ethernet ports needed for devices that previously depended on wireless What provider(s)? Support shifted from “device to institutional wifi” to “device to myfi” or “devide to 3rd party” Cost per user, per GB? What else? If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. By the way, the background here is .. we installed our 802.11n network ~5 years ago and haven’t had any commitment to fund it since. So now we are trying to deal with capacity (BYOD) issues that didn’t exist 5 years ago while upgrading to 11ac. Of course, it’s not a 1:1 swap of equipment since we’d be migrating from 2.4GHz to 2.4+5GHz. That puts the costs for forklift upgrades pretty high (did I mention I’ve been
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
We are MIT, and we’re not looking into this. :) -Chris == Chris Murphy Technology Consultant MIT Information Services Technology Room W92-191 77 Massachusetts Avenue Cambridge, MA 02139 ch...@mit.edu 617-253-4105 On May 13, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: If you know of any institutions who have attempted this (I have heard MIT is looking at it, but we aren’t MIT), please let me know. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Security Camera's
What wireless bridge do you use? Walter Reynolds Principal Systems Security Development Engineer Information and Technology Services University of Michigan (734) 615-9438 On May 12, 2015, at 8:36 PM, Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edu wrote: We say no to wireless cameras, even the integrators we use prefer to use wireless bridge to Ethernet over cameras in client mode. Lee H. Badman Network Architect/Wireless TME ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] on behalf of Elvis Seth [elvis_s...@brown.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 5:02 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Security Camera's Are there any recommendations for wireless security Camera's that support WPA2 Enterprise? -- Elvis Seth Brown University Senior Network Engineer Network Technology Group Computing and Information Services Office: 401-863-6531 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Security Camera's
Typically, either Xalt r5005, or LigoWave of late (huge value for the buck). Lee Badman Wireless/Network Architect ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 (Blog: http://wirednot.wordpress.com) From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Walt Reynolds Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:20 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Security Camera's What wireless bridge do you use? Walter Reynolds Principal Systems Security Development Engineer Information and Technology Services University of Michigan (734) 615-9438tel:%28734%29%20615-9438 On May 12, 2015, at 8:36 PM, Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edumailto:lhbad...@syr.edu wrote: We say no to wireless cameras, even the integrators we use prefer to use wireless bridge to Ethernet over cameras in client mode. Lee H. Badman Network Architect/Wireless TME ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] on behalf of Elvis Seth [elvis_s...@brown.edumailto:elvis_s...@brown.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 5:02 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Security Camera's Are there any recommendations for wireless security Camera's that support WPA2 Enterprise? -- Elvis Seth Brown University Senior Network Engineer Network Technology Group Computing and Information Services Office: 401-863-6531 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
Chuck, That's a very fair question and I don't believe there is solid data to support (or oppose) my contention. I can only support my claim by consistent anecdotal opinions of those in the institutional position to know - our stakeholder interviews with personnel in Admissions, Res Life, Student Affairs strongly favor this opinion at most residential institutions. Interestingly, in my experience this is less so for those institutions that have a larger demographic from economically disadvantaged backgrounds. I'll leave the guessing as to why that is so to another forum. As you are likely aware, the ACUTA survey supports my contention but I am unaware of any solid data surveying student recruitment in this area so it is accurate to say that my opinion is based strictly on anecdotal (but consistent) evidence from key stakeholders at a broad swath of institutions. Even the ACUTA survey is based on the opinions of the those institutional personnel, not direct student surveys. That said, for internal political purposes, those internal stakeholder opinions tend to be crucial in gaining the backing needed for effective wireless initiatives. As we all also know, higher-ed has a strong tendency to base decisions on what peers and aspirational peers are doing and the ACUTA survey can be an excellent tool for this. Thanks, Jon Vantage Technology Consulting Group On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Chuck Enfield chu...@psu.edu wrote: John, I’ve often heard it said that wireless is important to recruiting and retention, but I’ve yet to find any solid foundation for the claim. This may be because those search terms in Google return so much unrelated information that the good data is hard to find, or it could be that the claim is tenuous. Can you point us to any sources to substantiate it? I’m skeptical, but open to evidence. It would definitely change the way I think about our wireless services in relation to business needs. Thanks, Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 *From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Jon Young *Sent:* Wednesday, May 13, 2015 4:43 PM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... We consult with many higher-ed institutions and the question your President has posed about buying bulk data is a real one that many institutions have looked into. We are frequently asked this question (same question for cellular when it is time to replace the phone system) when we assist schools with the network and WiFi strategy so I can tell you that if you define the some schools are investigating this by asking their independent consultants, that is true. If you are asking if it is remotely viable and if anyone is seriously pursuing it beyond asking the question, the answer as you expect is a resounding no for all the reasons others have articulated on this thread. That said, a couple of things to note: Many schools have chosen to successfully outsource their resnet including wireless (see the recent resnet report from ACUTA). That is sometimes by letting the local cable company come in and offer service in the residence halls and sometimes by outsourcing resnet to a company like Apogee. There are pros and cons to insourcing vs outsourcing resnet but I think it is reasonable to consider if that is the right choice for your institution. Of I think larger importance to your President - the quality of wireless internet is a key component of student recruitment and retention at many institutions. At the request of one Ivy, I even wrote an internal white paper justifying ubiquitous WiFi across campus based primarily on student recruitment and retention. I suggest speaking with your admissions group and getting their thoughts on the importance of high-quality wireless internet (define that how you like) in the res halls and the rest of campus. Good luck, Jon Young Vantage Technology Consulting Group. On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 9:24 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: I have a little more information to provide now. I absolutely appreciate that it will be extremely tempting to respond with biased opinions. I don’t think there is anything that can be said that I haven’t already expressed to my team. However, that will not help me write up my recommendation. So that being said, feel free to chime in with tangible reasons to do this or not… Apparently, our president heard that some schools are investigating purchasing bulk data contracts with mobile (“cellular”) carriers for data. The idea is, we would stop providing 802.11g/n/ac wireless in the residence halls
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
The other factor in resnet applications is who is paying the bills. Some campuses require students to live on campus. Others compete directly with off-campus housing for revenue. Still others, housing and dining services are income sources to the school. Poor wireless becomes a student satisfaction issue. This can result in students leaving the school altogether (retention), or simply students moving to private housing (loss of revenue to housing). Both have a direct financial impact to the school. Sent from my iPhone On May 13, 2015, at 7:05 PM, Jon Young j...@network-plumbers.com wrote: Chuck, That's a very fair question and I don't believe there is solid data to support (or oppose) my contention. I can only support my claim by consistent anecdotal opinions of those in the institutional position to know - our stakeholder interviews with personnel in Admissions, Res Life, Student Affairs strongly favor this opinion at most residential institutions. Interestingly, in my experience this is less so for those institutions that have a larger demographic from economically disadvantaged backgrounds. I'll leave the guessing as to why that is so to another forum. As you are likely aware, the ACUTA survey supports my contention but I am unaware of any solid data surveying student recruitment in this area so it is accurate to say that my opinion is based strictly on anecdotal (but consistent) evidence from key stakeholders at a broad swath of institutions. Even the ACUTA survey is based on the opinions of the those institutional personnel, not direct student surveys. That said, for internal political purposes, those internal stakeholder opinions tend to be crucial in gaining the backing needed for effective wireless initiatives. As we all also know, higher-ed has a strong tendency to base decisions on what peers and aspirational peers are doing and the ACUTA survey can be an excellent tool for this. Thanks, Jon Vantage Technology Consulting Group On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Chuck Enfield chu...@psu.edu wrote: John, I’ve often heard it said that wireless is important to recruiting and retention, but I’ve yet to find any solid foundation for the claim. This may be because those search terms in Google return so much unrelated information that the good data is hard to find, or it could be that the claim is tenuous. Can you point us to any sources to substantiate it? I’m skeptical, but open to evidence. It would definitely change the way I think about our wireless services in relation to business needs. Thanks, Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jon Young Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 4:43 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... We consult with many higher-ed institutions and the question your President has posed about buying bulk data is a real one that many institutions have looked into. We are frequently asked this question (same question for cellular when it is time to replace the phone system) when we assist schools with the network and WiFi strategy so I can tell you that if you define the some schools are investigating this by asking their independent consultants, that is true. If you are asking if it is remotely viable and if anyone is seriously pursuing it beyond asking the question, the answer as you expect is a resounding no for all the reasons others have articulated on this thread. That said, a couple of things to note: Many schools have chosen to successfully outsource their resnet including wireless (see the recent resnet report from ACUTA). That is sometimes by letting the local cable company come in and offer service in the residence halls and sometimes by outsourcing resnet to a company like Apogee. There are pros and cons to insourcing vs outsourcing resnet but I think it is reasonable to consider if that is the right choice for your institution. Of I think larger importance to your President - the quality of wireless internet is a key component of student recruitment and retention at many institutions. At the request of one Ivy, I even wrote an internal white paper justifying ubiquitous WiFi across campus based primarily on student recruitment and retention. I suggest speaking with your admissions group and getting their thoughts on the importance of high-quality wireless internet (define that how you like) in the res halls and the rest of campus. Good luck, Jon Young Vantage Technology
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
Thanks John. FWIW, your characterization matches my experience in re the opinions of people in a position to know. But every time I've been able to ask the basis for that opinion the evidence is either anecdotal or it's based on a survey of their peers. This reeks of groupthink. I have my own anecdotal evidence, no more reliable than others of course, that suggest connectivity isn't high on the priority list of prospective students. When presented with the opportunity, I've asked some of our Lion Ambassadors, who give campus tours to prospective students, what kind of questions they get about wireless and networking. All four that I've asked said they don't get general questions about availability or performance. They reported being asked about how to access the network during the tour, but that question was more likely to come from a parent than an applicant. I think this is a very important question, but I don't have the resources to pursue the answer myself. I eagerly await credible evidence one way or the other. Chuck On May 13, 2015 9:06 PM, Jon Young j...@network-plumbers.com wrote: Chuck, That's a very fair question and I don't believe there is solid data to support (or oppose) my contention. I can only support my claim by consistent anecdotal opinions of those in the institutional position to know - our stakeholder interviews with personnel in Admissions, Res Life, Student Affairs strongly favor this opinion at most residential institutions. Interestingly, in my experience this is less so for those institutions that have a larger demographic from economically disadvantaged backgrounds. I'll leave the guessing as to why that is so to another forum. As you are likely aware, the ACUTA survey supports my contention but I am unaware of any solid data surveying student recruitment in this area so it is accurate to say that my opinion is based strictly on anecdotal (but consistent) evidence from key stakeholders at a broad swath of institutions. Even the ACUTA survey is based on the opinions of the those institutional personnel, not direct student surveys. That said, for internal political purposes, those internal stakeholder opinions tend to be crucial in gaining the backing needed for effective wireless initiatives. As we all also know, higher-ed has a strong tendency to base decisions on what peers and aspirational peers are doing and the ACUTA survey can be an excellent tool for this. Thanks, Jon Vantage Technology Consulting Group On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Chuck Enfield chu...@psu.edu wrote: John, I’ve often heard it said that wireless is important to recruiting and retention, but I’ve yet to find any solid foundation for the claim. This may be because those search terms in Google return so much unrelated information that the good data is hard to find, or it could be that the claim is tenuous. Can you point us to any sources to substantiate it? I’m skeptical, but open to evidence. It would definitely change the way I think about our wireless services in relation to business needs. Thanks, Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU ] On Behalf Of Jon Young Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 4:43 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... We consult with many higher-ed institutions and the question your President has posed about buying bulk data is a real one that many institutions have looked into. We are frequently asked this question (same question for cellular when it is time to replace the phone system) when we assist schools with the network and WiFi strategy so I can tell you that if you define the some schools are investigating this by asking their independent consultants, that is true. If you are asking if it is remotely viable and if anyone is seriously pursuing it beyond asking the question, the answer as you expect is a resounding no for all the reasons others have articulated on this thread. That said, a couple of things to note: Many schools have chosen to successfully outsource their resnet including wireless (see the recent resnet report from ACUTA). That is sometimes by letting the local cable company come in and offer service in the residence halls and sometimes by outsourcing resnet to a company like Apogee. There are pros and cons to insourcing vs outsourcing resnet but I think it is reasonable to consider if that is the right choice for your institution. Of I think larger importance to your President - the quality of wireless internet is a key component of student recruitment and retention at
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
My impression (again, anecdotal!) is that wireless doesn't rank incredibly high during their selection process, partially because they're overwhelmed with the process as a whole (major selection, financial aid packages, etc), but also because it doesn't really occur to them that the wireless at a pricey college might not perform like the wireless in their basement at home. I would also bet that it shows up in questionnaires simply because it being on the list prompts them to think how much they'll need it, much in the same way they'd think about one asking if a reliable electric grid or edible food is important. Once they show up on campus, though, bitching about how much wireless sucks is a popular pastime. Which, I suppose, is also the case for the food... For my money, the faculty are actually at least as important, if not more. We're seeing more of our faculty integrating online components into their courses. This includes both in class items, such as in class real-time response systems over laptops and smartphones, and out of class for homework submission and content delivery. They tend to be more clearly focused on the core educational mission than students, and can be engaged to elicit much clearer requirements, such as I need to support 40 students running apps X, Y, and Z in classroom XXX. Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu| For every problem, there is a solution that Manager of Network Operations | is simple, elegant, and wrong. Worcester Polytechnic Institute | - HL Mencken On 5/13/2015 10:47 PM, Chuck Enfield wrote: Thanks John. FWIW, your characterization matches my experience in re the opinions of people in a position to know. But every time I've been able to ask the basis for that opinion the evidence is either anecdotal or it's based on a survey of their peers. This reeks of groupthink. I have my own anecdotal evidence, no more reliable than others of course, that suggest connectivity isn't high on the priority list of prospective students. When presented with the opportunity, I've asked some of our Lion Ambassadors, who give campus tours to prospective students, what kind of questions they get about wireless and networking. All four that I've asked said they don't get general questions about availability or performance. They reported being asked about how to access the network during the tour, but that question was more likely to come from a parent than an applicant. I think this is a very important question, but I don't have the resources to pursue the answer myself. I eagerly await credible evidence one way or the other. Chuck On May 13, 2015 9:06 PM, Jon Young j...@network-plumbers.com wrote: Chuck, That's a very fair question and I don't believe there is solid data to support (or oppose) my contention. I can only support my claim by consistent anecdotal opinions of those in the institutional position to know - our stakeholder interviews with personnel in Admissions, Res Life, Student Affairs strongly favor this opinion at most residential institutions. Interestingly, in my experience this is less so for those institutions that have a larger demographic from economically disadvantaged backgrounds. I'll leave the guessing as to why that is so to another forum. As you are likely aware, the ACUTA survey supports my contention but I am unaware of any solid data surveying student recruitment in this area so it is accurate to say that my opinion is based strictly on anecdotal (but consistent) evidence from key stakeholders at a broad swath of institutions. Even the ACUTA survey is based on the opinions of the those institutional personnel, not direct student surveys. That said, for internal political purposes, those internal stakeholder opinions tend to be crucial in gaining the backing needed for effective wireless initiatives. As we all also know, higher-ed has a strong tendency to base decisions on what peers and aspirational peers are doing and the ACUTA survey can be an excellent tool for this. Thanks, Jon Vantage Technology Consulting Group On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Chuck Enfield chu...@psu.edu mailto:chu...@psu.edu wrote: John, I’ve often heard it said that wireless is important to recruiting and retention, but I’ve yet to find any solid foundation for the claim. This may be because those search terms in Google return so much unrelated information that the good data is hard to find, or it could be that the claim is tenuous. Can you point us to any sources to substantiate it? I’m skeptical, but open to evidence. It would definitely change the way I think about our wireless services in relation to business needs. Thanks, Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 tel:814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 tel:814.865.3988
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
I could not agree more, but it's important to know what drives performance and coverage requirements, and some vague notion of an effect on recruiting is quite different from specific and identifiable (note I did not say easily) academic needs. For example, academic needs don't justify wide-spread outdoor WiFi coverage. The If we don't have it students wont come here. argument may suggests it's imperative. There's little academic need for in-building cellular coverage, but if it effects enrollment we may have to do it anyway. - Original Message - From: Frank Sweetser f...@wpi.edu To: Chuck Enfield chu...@psu.edu, WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:11:32 PM Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... My impression (again, anecdotal!) is that wireless doesn't rank incredibly high during their selection process, partially because they're overwhelmed with the process as a whole (major selection, financial aid packages, etc), but also because it doesn't really occur to them that the wireless at a pricey college might not perform like the wireless in their basement at home. I would also bet that it shows up in questionnaires simply because it being on the list prompts them to think how much they'll need it, much in the same way they'd think about one asking if a reliable electric grid or edible food is important. Once they show up on campus, though, bitching about how much wireless sucks is a popular pastime. Which, I suppose, is also the case for the food... For my money, the faculty are actually at least as important, if not more. We're seeing more of our faculty integrating online components into their courses. This includes both in class items, such as in class real-time response systems over laptops and smartphones, and out of class for homework submission and content delivery. They tend to be more clearly focused on the core educational mission than students, and can be engaged to elicit much clearer requirements, such as I need to support 40 students running apps X, Y, and Z in classroom XXX. Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu| For every problem, there is a solution that Manager of Network Operations | is simple, elegant, and wrong. Worcester Polytechnic Institute | - HL Mencken On 5/13/2015 10:47 PM, Chuck Enfield wrote: Thanks John. FWIW, your characterization matches my experience in re the opinions of people in a position to know. But every time I've been able to ask the basis for that opinion the evidence is either anecdotal or it's based on a survey of their peers. This reeks of groupthink. I have my own anecdotal evidence, no more reliable than others of course, that suggest connectivity isn't high on the priority list of prospective students. When presented with the opportunity, I've asked some of our Lion Ambassadors, who give campus tours to prospective students, what kind of questions they get about wireless and networking. All four that I've asked said they don't get general questions about availability or performance. They reported being asked about how to access the network during the tour, but that question was more likely to come from a parent than an applicant. I think this is a very important question, but I don't have the resources to pursue the answer myself. I eagerly await credible evidence one way or the other. Chuck On May 13, 2015 9:06 PM, Jon Young j...@network-plumbers.com wrote: Chuck, That's a very fair question and I don't believe there is solid data to support (or oppose) my contention. I can only support my claim by consistent anecdotal opinions of those in the institutional position to know - our stakeholder interviews with personnel in Admissions, Res Life, Student Affairs strongly favor this opinion at most residential institutions. Interestingly, in my experience this is less so for those institutions that have a larger demographic from economically disadvantaged backgrounds. I'll leave the guessing as to why that is so to another forum. As you are likely aware, the ACUTA survey supports my contention but I am unaware of any solid data surveying student recruitment in this area so it is accurate to say that my opinion is based strictly on anecdotal (but consistent) evidence from key stakeholders at a broad swath of institutions. Even the ACUTA survey is based on the opinions of the those institutional personnel, not direct student surveys. That said, for internal political purposes, those internal stakeholder opinions tend to be crucial in gaining the backing needed for effective wireless initiatives. As we all also know, higher-ed has a strong tendency to base decisions on what peers and aspirational peers are doing and the ACUTA survey can be an excellent tool for this. Thanks, Jon Vantage Technology Consulting Group On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 5:03
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service...
I agree that it's important for students to have network access in their homes. That says nothing about who should provide said access, and little about the specific features required. FWIW, the cost of a robust WiFi network in residence halls is generally so small compared to the other costs covered by the housing contract, that to provide it is almost a no-brainier. We're just finishing up an 18-month roll-out throughout our 153 residence halls. The 5-year cost of WiFi is about 1% of housing contract revenue. The per-student cost of a semester network access in the res halls is a little more than what Comcast charges for one month of broadband internet access in a downtown apartment. If the students want it and we can provide it at a lower cost than they could get it on the open market, why wouldn't we? - Original Message - From: Jake Snyder jsnyde...@gmail.com To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 10:25:37 PM Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... The other factor in resnet applications is who is paying the bills. Some campuses require students to live on campus. Others compete directly with off-campus housing for revenue. Still others, housing and dining services are income sources to the school. Poor wireless becomes a student satisfaction issue. This can result in students leaving the school altogether (retention), or simply students moving to private housing (loss of revenue to housing). Both have a direct financial impact to the school. Sent from my iPhone On May 13, 2015, at 7:05 PM, Jon Young j...@network-plumbers.com wrote: Chuck, That's a very fair question and I don't believe there is solid data to support (or oppose) my contention. I can only support my claim by consistent anecdotal opinions of those in the institutional position to know - our stakeholder interviews with personnel in Admissions, Res Life, Student Affairs strongly favor this opinion at most residential institutions. Interestingly, in my experience this is less so for those institutions that have a larger demographic from economically disadvantaged backgrounds. I'll leave the guessing as to why that is so to another forum. As you are likely aware, the ACUTA survey supports my contention but I am unaware of any solid data surveying student recruitment in this area so it is accurate to say that my opinion is based strictly on anecdotal (but consistent) evidence from key stakeholders at a broad swath of institutions. Even the ACUTA survey is based on the opinions of the those institutional personnel, not direct student surveys. That said, for internal political purposes, those internal stakeholder opinions tend to be crucial in gaining the backing needed for effective wireless initiatives. As we all also know, higher-ed has a strong tendency to base decisions on what peers and aspirational peers are doing and the ACUTA survey can be an excellent tool for this. Thanks, Jon Vantage Technology Consulting Group On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Chuck Enfield chu...@psu.edu wrote: blockquote John, I’ve often heard it said that wireless is important to recruiting and retention, but I’ve yet to find any solid foundation for the claim. This may be because those search terms in Google return so much unrelated information that the good data is hard to find, or it could be that the claim is tenuous. Can you point us to any sources to substantiate it? I’m skeptical, but open to evidence. It would definitely change the way I think about our wireless services in relation to business needs. Thanks, Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU ] On Behalf Of Jon Young Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 4:43 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] AW: [WIRELESS-LAN] To provide (wireless) service, or not to provide (wireless) service... We consult with many higher-ed institutions and the question your President has posed about buying bulk data is a real one that many institutions have looked into. We are frequently asked this question (same question for cellular when it is time to replace the phone system) when we assist schools with the network and WiFi strategy so I can tell you that if you define the some schools are investigating this by asking their independent consultants, that is true. If you are asking if it is remotely viable and if anyone is seriously pursuing it beyond asking the question, the answer as you expect is a resounding no for all the reasons others have articulated on this thread. That said, a couple of things to
