[WSG] Re: px em pt ???
Why doesn't anyone push the barrow saying Font sizes should be LARGE by default, and designers should MAKE THE FONT SMALLER if/when they don't like it. Why do we aim to please designers and expect users to make the adjustments? I don't get it. But then, I skipped all the subjects on typography at uni! Hoping the average Joe will fiddle with their browser environment is way out of line, from a usability perspective. You want users to focus on their task and working in that domain - simple and direct feedback as they accomplish what they set out to achieve. Having to stop and figure out computer stuff (yet again) is distracting at least, confusing and frustrating for many. Ah but reality never quite reaches Utopia does it? :) But I'm heartened to see that CSS3 looks to include more font keywords. CSS2 gave us menu, icon, caption, etc. These use the fonts (sizes and styles) as specified in the desktop settings of the computer. You would hope, at least, that the user has their computer configured to their personal preference. (Sorry... doesn't help with the netcafe scenario, does it). Does make you wonder why IE (in particular) doesn't pick up any of the desktop settings for use as a default font size. Why is that? I was disappointed CSS2 never had a font keyword for standard window text. Perhaps CSS3 will help us finally put the font issue to rest - or at least down a very deep pit where I don't have to listen to it anymore. Sorry but I've copped almost a years worth of discussion on this at work, directly and indirectly. Fonts. Grrr. Perhaps it's time to render all text as images once more! *ducks* * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] form input
I've had some issues with validating XHTML with divs in a form. The not allowed here message. Anyone else get that? Cheers Jame Ben Boyle wrote: label.submitbuttons input ... wonder if just .submitbuttons input would work? Yep. This allows the submitbuttons class to be specified on any parent element, not just a label. On some pages you could use label, on others you could use div, or you could use form, etc. These kind of open selectors can be really useful if you're designing a stylesheet that many designers will need to work with (like a corporate stylesheet). Quite handy - worth thinking about when putting your stylesheet together, when to constrain stylesheet rules based on elements on class, or leave them unconstrained. cheers Ben * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window
Miles, Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve them using a custom HTTP header: header( content-disposition: inline ); (that's the PHP way to do it). This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be any... help. Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better with attachments/mime-types in general. Miles Tillinger wrote: Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in a new window. At the moment I am using _blank targets. Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded in that window. Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's in Word, not in the Browser window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that option. The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window. So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible? Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not? Is there an accessible standard way of doing it? Regards, Miles * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site
Hi Jonathon, It has dynamic menus that you're not getting in Safari. A good illustration of not testing (or caring about) cross platform compatibility. This is also a good time to point out that if you use these types of dynamic menus, you must point the initial link to a meaningful address (a page that contains all the links that the menu would provide if it worked) so that anyone that doesn't get the menu still has an option. P -Original Message- From: Jonathan Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 9:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site I just visited the web site of Gramophone magazine, looking for a CD review. I'm using Safari - the buttons on the site don't work, they're all just # links. I've looked in the source code and am wondering why they don't work before I email them and let them know. Any guesses it might be a case of this site does not support Macs? Whatever the problem my bleary eyes just aren't seeing it. I'm interested to know the reason it's broken (if it is) so I can use it as an example of what to avoid with students at some point. http://www.gramophone.co.uk Jonathan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site
It's broken. The menu uses Javascript to dynamically create fly-out menus. It doesn't work in my Mac/Safari 1.1 nor Win/Firebird 0.7. It does work in Win/IE 6 Without delving, I would hazard a guess that IE specific JS statements are disabling the menu. Cheers, Ben Jonathan Baldwin wrote: I just visited the web site of Gramophone magazine, looking for a CD review. I'm using Safari - the buttons on the site don't work, they're all just # links. I've looked in the source code and am wondering why they don't work before I email them and let them know. Any guesses it might be a case of this site does not support Macs? Whatever the problem my bleary eyes just aren't seeing it. I'm interested to know the reason it's broken (if it is) so I can use it as an example of what to avoid with students at some point. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Can I just say something??? yes. It has nothing to do with the article itself. I really can't stand urls like http://www.notestips.com/80256B3A007F2692/1/TAIO-5TT34F The only way you can access them are via a search engine or book mark, no one will actually remember a url like this, it is not accessibile! http://www.notestips.com/articles/2003/1/ or http://www.notestips.com/articles/limitPageWidth Would have been better. Is this something for Standards or out of scope? -Original Message- From: Glenn Slaven [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 9:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Fixed Width Design Interesting article on using fixed width design for sites: http://www.notestips.com/80256B3A007F2692/1/TAIO-5TT34F He makes a good point: Limiting the page width is about maximising readability. The more words there are on a line, the further the eye has to travel back to the beginning, and the easier it is to end up on the wrong line, which can increase the time it takes to read a page and decrease the ability to easily scan the content rather than read it fully. Scanning is considered the most common way for web pages to be read. A study carried out last year concluded that adults prefer a medium line length, children a narrow length. -- Glenn Religion and science are opposed, but only in the same sense as that in which my thumb and forefinger are opposed - and between the two, one can grasp everything - Sir William Bragg. http://glenn.typepad.com/news/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
russ weakley wrote: It is a debate raging around the web at present. There are other options that solve this problem: FWIW, a few weeks ago I created a layout with EMs as base unit. I've set min- and max-widths for better readability. http://www.webproducer.at/flexible-layout Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] The 5th pillar - was Fixed Width Design
Hey Taco Is this something for Standards or out of scope? Russ has this idea that there are 4 pillars of web standards: - validity - semantics - separation of presentation content - accessibility To my mind that last one generally refers to people with disabilities people using dodgy hardware software (http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aaccessibility). For a long time I have thought that there is a 5th element that is missing from this list. This 5th element is addressed in good design but its not really discussed very often in terms of web standards. I think the reason for this is its kind of hard to put your finger on and there is no buzz word that sums it up. I guess what I am talking about is accessibility for you me. Little things that make sites easier to use for even expert users. I guess you could call it usability but even that word has a number connotations (http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Ausability). Part of the reason I love the CUE site (http://www.qld.gov.au/web/cue/overview/) is its deals with this issue in more detail than I have seen in any one place. It calls it consistent user experience. But even this tag sells the idea short. Anyway what I am talking about includes all the little things that give a site real polish, things like: - guessable/memorable URLs, - site structure (logical connection of content), - use of hyperlinks in the text, - googlability or search engine friendliness - tabbing between elements - font colour use (beyond just % based fonts) - using http status properly* - lots of other stuff Maybe you could just say that its about playing nicely in the Internet space (see http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-webarch-20031209/). Or maybe its about going the extra lengths for your users. Yes! I really think this is a vital part of web standards. I just wish I could find a name for it. * For example this page has moved, please update you bookmarks, you will be redirected in 5 seconds is insane. HTTP 301 is the thing to use in this case: 10.3.2 301 Moved Permanently The requested resource has been assigned a new permanent URI and any future references to this resource SHOULD use one of the returned URIs. Clients with link editing capabilities ought to automatically re-link references to the Request-URI to one or more of the new references returned by the server, where possible. This response is cacheable unless indicated otherwise. Seamless end user experience + proxies spiders and other clients understand what is happening. Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Now for the classic: What if you're in a internet cafe and you don't remember the url? Personally I *try* and keep the url clean and easy to remember [domain] / [object/function] / [key/id] -Original Message- From: Gary Menzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 10:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design The only way you can access them are via a search engine or book mark, no one will actually remember a url like this, it is not accessibile! accessible means that the content can be navigated, read and understood by the largest number of users. For me personally, a URL can be as cryptic as it needs to be. I don't find I need to remember a URL like that. I either keep the email it is in (which provides me context as well as how to get to it) or - if it is REALLY a kewl thing I want to remember I add it to my bookmarks and give it a name that I think makes sense. I do remember domains though (e.g. www.mydomain.com). In most instances I find the names that people give their directory/path hierarchies don't make sense to me anyways. They are just one persons (or possibly a small committee's) view of how the information should be categorised - and, in my experience, don't map to my view of the world. Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] The 5th pillar - was Fixed Width Design
Hey Mark, I'm glad to see you could put to words what I could not. I totally agree with you, I like how you brought the status codes in the picture, it has been something I started working on at some stage, but like most personal projects I'd let it get dusty. --- Yes! I really think this is a vital part of web standards. I just wish I could find a name for it. --- Why not memorability ;-)) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window
I don't suppose we're actually 'serving' the PDF or DOC as such, in that we only link to the file. As we have no control over the header of the file, the user's OS will handle it however it is configured to. Herein lies the problem... -Original Message- From: Bradley Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window Miles, Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve them using a custom HTTP header: header( content-disposition: inline ); (that's the PHP way to do it). This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be any... help. Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better with attachments/mime-types in general. Miles Tillinger wrote: Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in a new window. At the moment I am using _blank targets. Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded in that window. Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's in Word, not in the Browser window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that option. The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window. So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible? Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not? Is there an accessible standard way of doing it? Regards, Miles * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Now for the classic: What if you're in a internet cafe and you don't remember the url? My response to that is that the Internet does not support portability of your personal configuration information properly. This is what I think needs to be addressed - not what a URL actually is or isn't. That to me is the accessibility issue with regard to URL's (not what they look like). Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't matter as much as it is made to at the moment. Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
If I had a dollar for everytime that I had given some a www-less URL verbally and they've just entered www. blah out of habit, I'd be a millionaire! Ubergeek: Ok, enter the URL 'news.google.com' N00b: [enters www.news.google.com] Ubergeek: No, no no, no WWW! N00b: news.google.com, without www? wow, does that work? That's amazing! How about the http://? I can leave it out? OMG! -Original Message- From: Jonathan Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 11:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design I agree. I've long advocated easy to remember URLs because, although most of us do as Gary says and get URLs directly from email, I've observed that a *lot* of users don't know that they can copy URLs from the browser so type them out when passing them on, or do it verbally, so it is important to have easy to remember URLs and to ensure that content is easily accessible from the top of the site. An easy to type URL is more likely to be passed on by people e.g. saying something like: I saw a great article at zeldman dot com, just go to the 'articles' section and look for 'standards' is, in my experience, how most people pass on URLs... On a related note, when will people stop saying dot and slash? Can't we move forward and instead of announcers after TV programmes saying wwwDOTbbcDOTcoDOTukDORWARDSLASHeastenders just www (very short pause) bbc (very short pause)co(very short pause)uk slash eastenders, using the punctuation like puncttuation. Wouldn't that work if it were adopted as a convention? It's make URLs easy to remember.(in fact we could drop the www like we dropped the httpcolonslashslash See Malcom Gladwell's Tipping Point for an excellent discussion of The Stickiness Factor - there are lessons throughout the whole book for designers and web site creators. On 11 Dec 2003, at 23:37, Taco Fleur wrote: http://www.notestips.com/articles/2003/1/ or http://www.notestips.com/articles/limitPageWidth Would have been better. Is this something for Standards or out of scope? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window
I hope it's not stupid, but how about the ol' Right-click and Save as? I haven't followed this whole post, but I know it annoys the hell out of me when I click a link and it opens up a new window and starts adobe acrobat (in the browser), starts loading the file, and consumes all my system resources... (ooh and the X doesn't work) I believe users really need to gently be guided when it comes to downloading documents, i.e. To download any of the following documents, please click the document to open it in a new browser, or Right Click the link and select Save As to save the document to your machine. my 2 pesetas! -Original Message- From: Miles Tillinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 10:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window I don't suppose we're actually 'serving' the PDF or DOC as such, in that we only link to the file. As we have no control over the header of the file, the user's OS will handle it however it is configured to. Herein lies the problem... -Original Message- From: Bradley Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window Miles, Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve them using a custom HTTP header: header( content-disposition: inline ); (that's the PHP way to do it). This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be any... help. Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better with attachments/mime-types in general. Miles Tillinger wrote: Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in a new window. At the moment I am using _blank targets. Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded in that window. Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's in Word, not in the Browser window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that option. The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window. So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible? Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not? Is there an accessible standard way of doing it? Regards, Miles * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Just some examples: 2 I actually type in from memory pretty often: http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/ http://www.macromedia.com/coldfusion/ (which actually redirects to /software/coldfusion/ - very nice) and an interesting concept - each item/object has a unique keyword - tack .html on the end and its a url on this guys site. No structure as such but still... http://www.ftrain.com/PaulFord.html http://www.ftrain.com/Role.html http://www.ftrain.com/Place.html Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Hi Gary, you always have wise words, so I'd like to know what it is and why you are expecting? -- Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't matter as much as it is made to at the moment. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window
Any more info on this? Doesn't it work the same as sending proper headers? -Original Message-From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 11:04 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank windowIf you are using Apache you could force a download for these file types instead of opening the file. When the user clicks on the link the download box will pop up.This'd be my preference...CheersJamesMiles Tillinger wrote: I don't suppose we're actually 'serving' the PDF or DOC as such, in that we only link to the file. As we have no control over the header of the file, the user's OS will handle it however it is configured to. Herein lies the problem... -Original Message- From: Bradley Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window Miles, Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve them using a custom HTTP header: header( "content-disposition: inline" ); (that's the PHP way to do it). This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be any... help. Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better with attachments/mime-types in general. Miles Tillinger wrote: Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in a new window. At the moment I am using _blank targets. Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded in that window. Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's in Word, not in the Browser window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that option. The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window. So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible? Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not? Is there an accessible standard way of doing it? Regards, Miles * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window
If you force a user to save the file locally instead of opening it in the manner in which their browser is set up to handle it you're taking away their control of default behaviours. I really recommend against this. Let the browser handle it. If they have only the Acrobat Reader,a PDF will(generally) open within the browser. If they want to set it up differently to open in Acrobat itself, they can change their setup. I have all these types of things set as I want them. I want to open Word and Excel files within the browser. If you force me to save it you're taking my preference away and I get really cranky. Then I have to remember where I saved it and clean it up later, rather than it being a temporary internet file that is purged automatically. Whenever a client asks me to force people to save things I talk them out of it. Just my thoughts. P From: Taco Fleur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 12:12 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window Any more info on this? Doesn't it work the same as sending proper headers? -Original Message-From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 11:04 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank windowIf you are using Apache you could force a download for these file types instead of opening the file. When the user clicks on the link the download box will pop up.This'd be my preference...CheersJamesMiles Tillinger wrote: I don't suppose we're actually 'serving' the PDF or DOC as such, in that we only link to the file. As we have no control over the header of the file, the user's OS will handle it however it is configured to. Herein lies the problem... -Original Message- From: Bradley Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window Miles, Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve them using a custom HTTP header: header( "content-disposition: inline" ); (that's the PHP way to do it). This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be any... help. Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better with attachments/mime-types in general. Miles Tillinger wrote: Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in a new window. At the moment I am using _blank targets. Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded in that window. Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's in Word, not in the Browser window. When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that option. The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window. So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible? Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not? Is there an accessible standard way of doing it? Regards, Miles * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
You could always tell them to enter http://[EMAIL PROTECTED] In Internet Explorer, that'd really freak them out. http://www.secunia.com/internet_explorer_address_bar_spoofing_test/ Now tell me that IE is a secure browser... CHeers James Miles Tillinger wrote: If I had a dollar for everytime that I had given some a www-less URL verbally and they've just entered www. blah out of habit, I'd be a millionaire! Ubergeek: Ok, enter the URL 'news.google.com' N00b: [enters www.news.google.com] Ubergeek: No, no no, no WWW! N00b: news.google.com, without www? wow, does that work? That's amazing! How about the http://? I can leave it out? OMG! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't matter as much as it is made to at the moment. I was trying to say that URL's/URI's are not really for humans. The URN (Uniform Resrouce Name) is what we are actually talking about. This is a specific form of a URI that is persistent for a particular object that can always be found even if it actually moves from time to time. They aren't used very much - sadly. You see, the way everyone works is different. So to rely on a single categorisation of a piece of information is actually foolish. You want to be able to access a single piece of information in hundreds of different ways. The URL/URI is only a key to the information. A URN would allow a piece of information to be permanently identified but allow it to move around in cyberspace. An agent of some type needs to exist to actually convert it to a URL. Ultimately, the idea should be that once a piece of information - let's say a document for ease of conversation - comes into being it should be allocated some unique identifying key that NEVER ever changes. Even if the information is deleted there should be a remnant that it existed under this unique key (and possibly even still have history stored about that piece of information). And that unique key will never be used again. Then what you need is globally (universally??) accessible mechanisms to collect these keys and organise them in any way that makes sense to you as a user. Whack it into multiple categories, allocate keywords for it (which are just another means of categorisation), write notes about the item, etc. etc. So - my dreams a much less humble than hoping for memorable URL's. Hence - I don't care what a URL looks like. Just that the tools I use to access resources know how to use them. I wonder when/if Browsers and websites will start using URN's instead of URL's ?? Here's a nice page (with a nice cryptic URL) on the subject: http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid26_gci214164,00.html Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window
If you force a user to save the file locally instead of opening it in the manner in which their browser is set up to handle it you're taking away their control of default behaviours. I really recommend against this. Let the browser handle it. If they have only the Acrobat Reader,a PDF will(generally) open within the browser. If they want to set it up differently to open in Acrobat itself, they can change their setup. --- How many users out there do you know that actually know they can change these settings? Let alone knowhow to change these settings. --- I have all these types of things set as I want them. I want to open Word and Excel files within the browser. If you force me to save it you're taking my preference away and I get really cranky. Then I have to remember where I saved it and clean it up later, rather than it being a temporary internet file that is purged automatically. --- Forcing to save ALSO gives you the option to open, OK it does not open it in your browser, but in the program it was intended to open in the first place (outside your browser).. I think no matter what preferences the user has set in their browser, we should do a bit of thinking for them, who actually has no problems opening up a PDF or word document in their browser? my 2 pesetas
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
We must remember the origin of the Home Page. This was the page that your old Unix shell account browser saved their bookmarks to (the two I used to use were lynx and I believe the other was simply www). This page was (by default) the index document in your account directory (whatever.com/users/~username/). That's why it was a home page, it was where your brower started (by default). Then people started linking to each others home pages and the word became synonymous with the top page in a website. P -Original Message- From: Jonathan Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 12:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design You and me both. My .mac homepage address has no www - but people automatically ask if I've missed it off when I tell them it. I suppose if the web were more forgiving then it wouldn't matter if you typed www or not. Like getting the post code wrong or missing it off - takes a little longer to get there but it does. But it's an irrelevance - time we moved away from it I think as a hangup from the old days when people who used the web used all sorts of protocols in their work (ftp being the only one I can think of that I still use, but rarely in my browser). It does seem (anecdotally) that people who have trouble with URLs stumble at www. Pipe dreams... don't you love them? On 12 Dec 2003, at 00:56, Miles Tillinger wrote: If I had a dollar for everytime that I had given some a www-less URL verbally and they've just entered www. blah out of habit, I'd be a millionaire! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] do people still use bookmarks?
Yes my firebird links toolbar looks like: - AClientName - a few links to tools relating to a client's stuff - Surf - links to various surf weather reports - Boards - various discussion boards - To Read - when I see something I want to come back to it goes here - Favelets - all those validators things - Banking - various online banking apps - Intranet Apps - Our intranet app - Bugzilla - CVSMonitor - Webmin - Useful Tools - Google Sets - lipsum.com I use a heaps of these everyday. Don't know what I would do without folders in the links toolbar. Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
